Which Daedra were involved in the betrayal of Jyggalag?

Avariprivateer

Is there any remote idea in which era Jyggalag was transformed by daedra who were afraid of the Prince of Order's standing as the most powerful daedric lord? Also, who exactly was involved? I could certainly imagine Molag Bal, Boethiah, Mephala and Clavicus Vile being the usual suspects, perhaps Merunes Dagon as well if he was around yet. It's difficult for me to imagine Azura being involved unless there was something extremely important at stake. Meridia could have still been a Magna Ge in Aetherius at the time but that is only the loosest conjecture and as for Trinimac becoming Malacath occurring before or after I couldn't say at all. My only real concrete suspicion would be that Lorkhan's demise preceded Jyggalag's. Does anyone have any possible insights?

Eporem

I like being reminded of Jyggalag - for he reminds me that there are Daedra that are intuned with Anu.

There is a book "Truth in Sequence Volume 3'" that seems to suggest he went mad in the knowing of his nature - that maybe there is a possibility no other daedra were involved?

Of the Daedra, only the Gray Prince of Order knew his nature, and he went mad in the knowing.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/truth-sequence-volume-3

Elsonso

Eporem wrote: »

I like being reminded of Jyggalag - for he reminds me that there are Daedra that are intuned with Anu.

There is a book "Truth in Sequence Volume 3'" that seems to suggest he went mad in the knowing of his nature - that maybe there is a possibility no other daedra were involved?

"The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land."

That seems definitive on the question of whether other Princes were involved.

As for when this happened, it appears that it was long before recorded history.

RaddlemanNumber7

I would say no other daedra were involved. Paranoia is part of Jyggalag's madness. He's just saying, "They're all out to get me," and "They made me do it." It's pretty common in fiction for madmen to get like that when they've been isolated, living in obscurity for a long time, and Jyggalag gets isolated for the length of an era at a time.

If you asked any of the daedric Princes about Jyggalag I expect they'd say something like, "Jigga who? Never heard of him."

Aigym_Hlervu

1. According to Karkuxor, Sheogorath appeared by the end of the War of Ehlnofey in Dawn Era - "Contemporary sources indicate that his roots are in Aldmeri creation stories; therein, he is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.".
2. If we speak of chronicles, then 1E 1300s are the first time Sheogorath was mentioned in written history - "the wickedness of the demons of Oblivion... their depravity equals that of Sanguine itself, they are cruel as Boethiah, calculating as Molag Bal, and mad as Sheogorath." Hale the Pious thus long-windedly introduced four of the Daedra Lords to written record".
3. If we speak of the phenomenons associated with the Daedra, then Sheogorath could have appeared after the Velothi Exodus of the Late Middle Merethic Era. Since Malacath is the God of Curses, thus Jyggalag could not have been cursed by the Daedra Lords without Malacath and thus before Boethiah slew Trinimac thus turning him into Malacath.
4. According to the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book Four by Mankar Camoran, Jyggalag could have been transformed into Sheogorath in times of Lyg - "All will change in these days as it was changed in those, for with by the magic word Nu-Mantia a great rebellion rose up and pulled down the towers of CHIM-EL GHARJYG, and the templars of the Upstart were slaughtered, and blood fell like dew from the upper wards down to the lowest pits, where the slaves with maniacal faces took chains and teeth to their jailers and all hope was brush-fire.".
5. According to the Hetchfield's theory stated in his An Overview of Gods and Worship in Tamriel Sheogorath could have appeared as a personification of madness in the times the First Daedra worshippers appeared - "It has been theorized that gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship through praise, sacrifice and deed. It may even be theorized that the number of worshippers a given Deity has may reflect on His overall position among the other Gods. This my own conjecture, garnered from the apparent ability of the larger temples to attain blessings and assistance from their God with greater ease than smaller religious institutions.".
It could have been either the Chimer who built the Bal Fell and Ald Redaynia shrines to Sheogorath (read further here) or, according to Phrastus, the Ayleids, who did not make any difference between the Good and Bad Daedra and thus, I think should be older in their affiliation to Oblivion than the Chimer - "Unlike the Chimer, the Ayleids made no distinction between "good and bad" Daedra—indeed, even some of the more heinous Princes received mass veneration, especially when their worship was adopted and endorsed by Ayleid kings and aristocrats.".

Choose whatever option you personally believe in.

jlmurra2

I would love to see, and learn more of Jyggalag. I was disappointed nothing developing the character was included in Skyrim, hopeful more information about Jyggalag will be revealed in future releases.

Elsonso

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I would love to see, and learn more of Jyggalag. I was disappointed nothing developing the character was included in Skyrim, hopeful more information about Jyggalag will be revealed in future releases.

I know. TES V sort of dropped the ball on that one. In the time between the 4th and 5th games, you'd think at least one Jyggalag worshipper would have wandered into Skyrim. Daedric worshippers are like fleas. If you are not vigilant, they arrive quietly, are never noticed until it is too late, and are well nigh impossible to get rid of once they get established.

Thevampirenight

I believe it happened during the same time period as convention or soon after it. Sheogorath is considered to be born after the death of an Aedra. Its very possible the death of Lorkhan one of the Aedra is the reason why Jyggalag was cursed.
Here is why, the curse of Jyggalag is very obviously a type of balancing thing. He is until we free him of the curse forced to come back and destroy Sheogorath's realm. Why would the Princes have him come back? Well the answer is quite simple.

When Lorkhan died it could have created a lot of unbalanced because Lorkhan was chaos but he was also limit. Without chaos or limit. Order the opposite of Chaos would become more powerful and can start to overtake. This I feel is the catalyst that got the Daedra fearful enough to limit Jyggalag. As a being of Pure Order he would have the power to technically destroy all the chaos that is Oblivion and without that chaos there is no Daedra. Without Lorkhan there was nothing preventing him from overtaking Oblivion and making it all a realm of Order.

What happens to the Golden Saints and Seducers in the Shivering Isles, when one of the traitor dukes enters. Is a foreshadowing of the Jyggalag could do to all the Daedra. I do think the Princes were very well aware of this.

So to prevent it they cursed Jyggalag into the Greymarch Cycle and forcing him to become Sheogorath his polar opposite maybe not out of hatred but fear. There is still a problem Chaos can do the same thing and would be still a threat the Princes likely knew as to much chaos could maybe make it so they can't form into the various daedra types as there would be no order at all to allow for them to form in theory. To balance that out they would need Jyggalag come back to deal with the threat of Chaos of Sheogorath then when Sheogorath is defeated the curse is renewed and the Cycle can repeats itself.

The Greymarch cycle isn't just a curse on both Jyggalag and Sheogorath but it also limits the two of them so neither can unbalance Oblivion. When the Hero of Kvatch beat Jyggalag and became Sheogorath. It allowed the two princes to be separated from one another. Thus there was no longer a need for a Greymarch cycle. Because a new balance was formed out of the act.
A member of Bethesda has confirmed they are separated, so in future Elder Scrolls games both Princes could make an appearance.

The_Drop_Bear

Now we are talking about personal choice anyway: again, pardon us for being so bold, but stories of the Aldmeri creation mythos say that the Lord Sheogorath was 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark was removed and the free Mundus, the mortal world, first came into existence. Might this relate to the curse that Jyggalag's jealous unbrothers placed on him?

Dyus:

The Aldmer really think that? How amusing.

Haskill:

Ah, the elves. That most self-centered of mortal races. It is inconceivable that anything could occur that has nothing at all to do with them. Do you really think that Oblivion exists solely as a shadow of Mundus? That everything that happens here is connected in some way with your pitifully limited world? I can tell you, speaking only for myself, of course, that sometimes entire minutes pass without me thinking of mortal affairs.

Interview With Two Denizens of the Shivering Isles

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/interview-two-denizens-shivering-isles

JohnOfMarkarth

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Since Malacath is the God of Curses, thus Jyggalag could not have been cursed by the Daedra Lords without Malacath and thus before Boethiah slew Trinimac thus turning him into Malacath.

Malacath is a god of curses. But its never said that curses did not exist at all before him. To further drive that point... He was cursed. Therefore curses existed before he became cursed.
Cant go the way of "he be the cursed god of curses before whom curses did not exist"
... its a "Chuck Norris was born in a house he himself built" paradox


(Also to note is that Alt/dmeri creation myth is as probable to have happened as is Argonian one or Nordic one. It really is doubtful that it is them whom hold the entirety or even majority of truth)

Aigym_Hlervu

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Since Malacath is the God of Curses, thus Jyggalag could not have been cursed by the Daedra Lords without Malacath and thus before Boethiah slew Trinimac thus turning him into Malacath.

Malacath is a god of curses. But its never said that curses did not exist at all before him. To further drive that point... He was cursed. Therefore curses existed before he became cursed.
Cant go the way of "he be the cursed god of curses before whom curses did not exist"
... its a "Chuck Norris was born in a house he himself built" paradox


(Also to note is that Alt/dmeri creation myth is as probable to have happened as is Argonian one or Nordic one. It really is doubtful that it is them whom hold the entirety or even majority of truth)

"He was cursed", "Never said that curses did not exist before him", "Therefore curses existed before became cursed".. Ok, if you don't mind, let me clarify that point 3 of my message to the OP you quoted through these 4 points below to make things more clear and show you that all of your three statements are based on theorizing and are a bit incorrect:
1. Something I ask you to keep in mind while you read this reply. That was just one of the 5 possible versions. I also wrote it clearly up there - "Choose whatever option you personally believe in". If you don't believe in the Altmeri creation myth - it is your right. I don't believe it either ! Nonetheless, all I did there was providing all the versions and sources the OP could choose from.
2. Now on to your statements. There are no sources stating that Malak was cursed . Perhaps, they will be created in future, or you might know some of them I've been unaware of? Then provide them, please. Anyway, it is said, indeed, that his followers were cursed, but not Malak himself - "Trinimac faded and was reborn as Mauloch, the God of Curses. With his mind bent on revenge, his most devout followers changed to match him and became the Orsimer, cursed to wander in exile, a people without a place".
3. According to the Mauloch, Orc-Father, it was Malak who cursed Boethiah, not vice versa - "Mauloch, the God of Curses, rose from the ash and cursed Boethiah for his malice". All Boethiah did was he "gloated and cast a terrible ritual to scar and twist his appearance, then cast him to a place of choking air and ash" - if you think that was Malak's curse, then, well, it's your perception only, because, first, it's never mentioned there that it was a curse indeed (unlike Malak's one towards Boethiah), and secondly, if you read the Lord of Souls by Greg Keyes, you might remember Malak's own words that people are often too literal-minded in their perception of his transformation process. So, your statement that Malak was cursed himself is very speculative.
4. According to the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Prima Official Game Guide (it's a UESP description link only, you also won't find any suitable link to download a pdf of that wonderful book, so here I give you a direct link to it's online version with all the text and pictures and even the exact page 293/660 I reference here to), Malak is called literally the Creator of Curses. Should I prove that a creation does not exist before it is created? Well, the Elder Scrolls, the in-game items, are the only evidence of the opposite I'm aware of, should you nonetheless ask me to do that silly thing . In normal cases, if curses existed before Malak, the God of Curses, then, please, provide some sources showing that a certain case definitely happened before the time of his transformation. It is more the matter of chronology, so I'd also appreciate your commentary on what chronology you used to support your statement - Aicantar's, pre-ri'Datta one, Orcish, some theoretical like the New Elven one, etc. In my post above you argued with, I used the most common traditional Altmeri chronology.

Eporem

a Random comment:

I wonder if Sotha Sil's creations of factotums were inspired by Jyggalag

RaddlemanNumber7

Eporem wrote: »

a Random comment:

I wonder if Sotha Sil's creations of factotums were inspired by Jyggalag

]

Jyggalag is the true anticipation of Sotha Sil, just like Sheogorath is the true anticipation of crazy Almalexia and Molag Bal of Vivec