can you make purge single target? its one of the largest points of contention.

Wing

on the list of skills that ball groups get amazing use out of and solo cannot afford to use that make a HUGE difference, purge is right at the top.

making this skill single target, adding a magicka and stamina morph and reducing the cost to take into account the new self only nature, would go a massively long way to both killing ball groups (that have dedicated people spamming this skill on cooldown) and providing a desperately needed cleanse to solo players.

it would be best to surgically target some of these problem skills then nerfing skills nobody uses like impulse just because "its an aoe"

[Edited to remove Name in Thread Title]

colossalvoids

* In pvp areas.

LoreToo

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

Kadoin

LoreToo wrote: »

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

[snip] This is only true if you are fighting more than one person, and at that point, why exactly should a single skill give such a monumental advantage? Doesn't purge on live also heal by hp%? Another point of contention with the skill, esp. since all other healing that isn't hp%-based got gutted, and it's yet another skill you don't have to invest stats in to make effective. It's yet another item you don't have to give up sustain to gain the maximum effects of, and somehow ZOS is surprised its an unbalanced addition to the game.

So you have a skill that can take off any negative debuff (it should also cleanse stuns, unless they changed that but I have never noticed it myself) that also heals hp% for more than one person, and someone can seriously call that balanced? I think when they changed it I even said it was a terrible idea, and it was proven that it was a bad idea when ballgroups became invincible because the hp% per effect wasn't capped like it is on live.

[snip] Debuffs exist to be on players, not constantly cleansed. To add to that, without debuffs, you won't be killing anyone [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Major_Lag

Yes
Very yes.

Purge is stupidly OP in groups (esp. large groups) yet near worthless for solo play due to its staggering cost.
Making it more useful for solo/smallscale and less useful for large groups is LONG since overdue.

Just remember to make any adjustments through Battle Spirit, as not to affect some endgame PvE content where Purge is mandatory to use.

VaranisArano

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

technohic

Efficient purge should be made self only at current cost, or maybe slightly cheaper to close to extended ritual

The other morph should cleanse a limited number of effects from a group, like a total for the entire group, no heal at current cost

Major_Lag

VaranisArano wrote: »

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

If you are standing on a ram under 6 oils pouring, you might wish to reevaluate your choice of positioning. Hint: it might be unwise, and hazardous to your health.

But you know what? Sure. I would be totally on board if Purge removed only debuffs inflicted by siege weapon, even for multiple targets as it does now. With any additional (non-siege) debuffs removed only from the caster.

VaranisArano

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

If you are standing on a ram under 6 oils pouring, you might wish to reevaluate your choice of positioning. Hint: it might be unwise, and hazardous to your health.

But you know what? Sure. I would be totally on board if Purge removed only debuffs inflicted by siege weapon, even for multiple targets as it does now. With any additional (non-siege) debuffs removed only from the caster.

Making a mass purge for siege debuffs and effects would be appropriate for the Support alliance line, given that standing on a ram under oils is far from the only reason why you might be taking heavy siege fire in ways that "just watch your positioning, bruh" doesn't help. But I think you knew that's insufficient, and perhaps your sarcasm simply didn't translate well over the internet.

It would certainly benefit the players who actually care about playing for the objective instead of merely scrapping in the open field or running around farming zergs in a keep.

WrathOfInnos

Ally purge is important for several PVE mechanics.

VaranisArano

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ally purge is important for several PVE mechanics.

I think that most of the change suggestions presuppose that ZOS would do this via battlespirit so it only impacts PVP. Still, it's worth mentioning!

I'm not sure it's realistic, however, given their historical reluctance to use battlespirit. We can only hope they will for the possible AOE changes coming down the pipeline.

Recremen

Kadoin wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

Completely false statement. This is only true if you are fighting more than one person

If you want to only fight one person, then go enter a dueling tournament. Big kid battles like what we get in Cyrodiil need big kid skills to help respond to the unique challenges of large battles. That means there's always going to be skills built with a group vs. group fight in mind, and by extension skills like this which require specialized builds to get the full effect out of. Like the whole premise of this conversation is about fights in Cyrodiil, where do you get the idea that people are going to be duking it out 1v1 exclusively?

bigdavid11b16_ESO

The day that nobody could group game wide, was the day that cyrodiil had zero lag with full pop. nobody in groups meant that nobody was spamming all of these utility skills like PURGE, which produces a debuff check among 24 players , times that by how many people are spamming, times how many casts per person. A massive part of our issues are group size and group utility skills multiplied by casts x people.

The reason i know this, is i was there and experienced it fully. it was the most fun ive had in the game, in years. All to be patched a day later, and everything + lag went back to normal.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greeting all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several comments for violations of the Community Rules, mostly regarding Rude or Baiting Comments. Please ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Wing

VaranisArano wrote: »

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

seige does not stop the problem groups.

even a small stack of 8, one of the problem ball groups, you can have constant oils and siege on them and they just sit in the doorway like nothing is going on, the kinds of groups people know of by name where when they show up at a keep you might as well leave because they are GOING to take it.

the only thing that stops them is ANOTHER equally skilled ball group.

numbers do not need the advantage of group wide skill when they ALREADY have numbers let alone skilled players.

and if you want to see just how bad these groups spam purge, cast inevitable det into them, it goes off instantly and constantly due to purge spam, it just does no damage.

honestly, if you could not group and had no aoe skills, we would probably have better longer fights rather then pvdoor.

Major_Lag

Wing wrote: »

seige does not stop the problem groups.

It doesn't, and purge spam is a large part of the reason why.

With enough purging, you don't even need siege shield. I know that, because I made it happen myself when I was in one such group. We were routinely standing under 6 oils pouring as if it were a shower of midsummer rain.

Wing wrote: »

and if you want to see just how bad these groups spam purge, cast inevitable det into them, it goes off instantly and constantly due to purge spam, it just does no damage.

That's assuming you can even get the cast to go off - due to both the lag the ballgroups cause, and it being a cast time ability, as those don't even work at all in heavy lag.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

If you are standing on a ram under 6 oils pouring, you might wish to reevaluate your choice of positioning. Hint: it might be unwise, and hazardous to your health.

But you know what? Sure. I would be totally on board if Purge removed only debuffs inflicted by siege weapon, even for multiple targets as it does now. With any additional (non-siege) debuffs removed only from the caster.

Making a mass purge for siege debuffs and effects would be appropriate for the Support alliance line, given that standing on a ram under oils is far from the only reason why you might be taking heavy siege fire in ways that "just watch your positioning, bruh" doesn't help. But I think you knew that's insufficient, and perhaps your sarcasm simply didn't translate well over the internet.

It would certainly benefit the players who actually care about playing for the objective instead of merely scrapping in the open field or running around farming zergs in a keep.

And here we reach the root of the problem: although in its current form, Purge is certainly a "tool which helps players survive" in tough battlefield situations, ballgroups are getting far more mileage out of it beyond helping extinguish an ally who happens to be on fire.

You know there is a problem with the game, when one single ability is an absolute requirement to use in every single group playing at the highest level - and said ability allows such groups to be virtually unstoppable, both literally as well as figuratively.

Kartalin

As long as the cost of the spell is reduced accordingly I don’t have a problem with single target purge. Every member of our group has some kind of purge ability slotted.

Crash427

Kadoin wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

[snip] This is only true if you are fighting more than one person, and at that point, why exactly should a single skill give such a monumental advantage? Doesn't purge on live also heal by hp%? Another point of contention with the skill, esp. since all other healing that isn't hp%-based got gutted, and it's yet another skill you don't have to invest stats in to make effective. It's yet another item you don't have to give up sustain to gain the maximum effects of, and somehow ZOS is surprised its an unbalanced addition to the game.

So you have a skill that can take off any negative debuff (it should also cleanse stuns, unless they changed that but I have never noticed it myself) that also heals hp% for more than one person, and someone can seriously call that balanced? I think when they changed it I even said it was a terrible idea, and it was proven that it was a bad idea when ballgroups became invincible because the hp% per effect wasn't capped like it is on live.

[snip] Debuffs exist to be on players, not constantly cleansed. To add to that, without debuffs, you won't be killing anyone [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Cleanse heals. Efficient purge doesnt. Maybe people should learn what skills do before calling for nerfs.

Cleanse also costs over 7k mag per cast. To think anyone could use it more than once or twice without a build investment into regen is silly. It's also been nerfed. It used to heal for twice what it does now. Even ballgroups with dedicated purge spammers eventually run out of resources if you can keep pressure on them.

Kadoin

Crash427 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

[snip] This is only true if you are fighting more than one person, and at that point, why exactly should a single skill give such a monumental advantage? Doesn't purge on live also heal by hp%? Another point of contention with the skill, esp. since all other healing that isn't hp%-based got gutted, and it's yet another skill you don't have to invest stats in to make effective. It's yet another item you don't have to give up sustain to gain the maximum effects of, and somehow ZOS is surprised its an unbalanced addition to the game.

So you have a skill that can take off any negative debuff (it should also cleanse stuns, unless they changed that but I have never noticed it myself) that also heals hp% for more than one person, and someone can seriously call that balanced? I think when they changed it I even said it was a terrible idea, and it was proven that it was a bad idea when ballgroups became invincible because the hp% per effect wasn't capped like it is on live.

[snip] Debuffs exist to be on players, not constantly cleansed. To add to that, without debuffs, you won't be killing anyone [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Cleanse heals. Efficient purge doesnt. Maybe people should learn what skills do before calling for nerfs.

Cleanse also costs over 7k mag per cast. To think anyone could use it more than once or twice without a build investment into regen is silly. It's also been nerfed. It used to heal for twice what it does now. Even ballgroups with dedicated purge spammers eventually run out of resources if you can keep pressure on them.

Maybe you should focus on the rest of the argument other than nitpicking. Fact of the matter is no one that has a brain chooses efficient over the one that heals+ purges, and purge does in fact purge too many things in the game like immobolize and snares which are the only counters to ball groups in the first place.

Second, you want to talk mag costs? 7K cost is still less than me using templar's ritual on BoL/honor the dead to achieve healing, EXCEPT

• BoL/Honor the Dead don't heal everyone
• Templar's Ritual doesn't purge more than one person without synergy
• BoL/Honor the Dead both require stat investment to heal and cannot be used by tanks while that 8k purge gives HP% healing and requires zero stat investment other than having magicka to use it
• BoL/Honor the Dead + Ritual cost more than the purge does and takes more than one ACTION to complete

Are you now understanding why that purge that heals is OP? Are you understanding now why even the efficient one could be problematic? It's not even balanced when comparing it to templar skills. Stop the noise.

Greasytengu

There wouldn't be so much purging going on if there weren't so many things that need to be purged.

The big thing that need to be purged is crowd control, and there is so much of it around.

Rapids had its CC immunity removed, the CC immunity we are supposed to get after being hit by CC is either not applying or too short to be noticeable, some CCs stack requiring multiple break frees or purges (from somebody else) to remove, and the sheer abundance of CC abilities out there means that everybody has at least one slotted.

If they somehow reduced the amount of crowd control abilities going out, I think it would greatly improve everyone's experience and drastically reduce the amount of purges being cast. Even if we are all wrong and purge is not actually causing lag, then at least you wont have to spend as much time futilely trying to break free or mashing purge 6 times so it goes off once during periods of heavy lag.

Kadoin

Greasytengu wrote: »

There wouldn't be so much purging going on if there weren't so many things that need to be purged.

The big thing that need to be purged is crowd control, and there is so much of it around.

Rapids had its CC immunity removed, the CC immunity we are supposed to get after being hit by CC is either not applying or too short to be noticeable, some CCs stack requiring multiple break frees or purges (from somebody else) to remove, and the sheer abundance of CC abilities out there means that everybody has at least one slotted.

If they somehow reduced the amount of crowd control abilities going out, I think it would greatly improve everyone's experience and drastically reduce the amount of purges being cast. Even if we are all wrong and purge is not actually causing lag, then at least you wont have to spend as much time futilely trying to break free or mashing purge 6 times so it goes off once during periods of heavy lag.

You know, eventually you have to die in the game and CC is a big part of it. The argument that purge is needed because of CC spam becomes completely invalidated when only organized groups can afford to spam it and gain all the advantages that come with it, while everyone else is subjected to the same CC the people supporting the OP purge mechanics claim is a problem. That only proves that the skill and mechanic itself is actually unbalanced, because it ultimately isn't available to everyone on an equal scale.

Also, there is no CC or debuff in the game that is "free" enough to compare to the ability to purge it. The cost of running debuffs across the board cost more than the ability to purge them, esp. when you take into account sets like curse eater, wyrd, stendarr, and earthgore. That's part of why purge and the other items with its mechanics is OP and why it definitely needs to be looked at.

Purge mechanics have no counter, and they don't have a stacking cost and/or appropriate CD, so they have no downside. If we want to really describe purge as a mechanic, it's ultimately damage reduction with absolutely no counter. That's essentially what it is, always has been, and apparently will be in the future if ZOS doesn't take any action.

And since defile and DoTs are the only counter to some builds (actually all good builds this patch only have this counter), then right now purge mechanics offer the most damage reduction out of any other mechanic in the game. I'm not going to even lie about it, but it's not like it matters anyway to ZOS since they don't care about balance. Guess it will have to be proven during that double AP test coming up soon...Look forward to it.

Crash427

Many ballgroup players have already switched over to Snow Treaders, so cleansing/purging immobilizes is irrelevant in those cases. I agree it's annoying when ballgroups just cleanse everything you throw at them, but really Snow Treaders has made that ten times worse inside keeps. Outside of a keep they are a liability. An interesting trade off for ballgroups to have to decide on. The main problem with killing ballgroups is when they're able to keep moving and those mythic boots are as much a part of that as Cleanse.

Consider the alternative though. I've been in fights with our 14 person group against the usual faction stacking groups where nearly every single one of our people has 6+ debuffs on them. We're not cleanse spamming our way out of that. We don't have near infinite sustain, no matter what people try to say. It's far more effective for us to try and kill as many players as possible before it gets to that point. If Cleanse is gone what will be left? 40 person stacks spamming weak DOTs as they run by and anyone who tries to fight them just melting. The game will continue towards being a simple matter of who can stack the most.

Cleanse was broken at one time. It was 10% healing in the description but there was something funky going on with the way it calculated. Something along the lines of multiplying by the number of debuffs then the number of players cleansed. It was giving insane healing numbers. A former guildmate once posted a screenshot where it was healing for 6 figures on people per cast. Those days are long gone. Typically if i hit cleanse and it clears 3 debuffs i'll see a heal somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3k. Big whoop. I've gotten 9k healing ticks from Sap Essence if I can find a big enough crowd to jump into.

TL;DR: People will complain. Skills/sets will change. Ballgroups will adapt. The cycle will continue until the pop cap is 12 per faction.

alexoop

For me, a solo DK usually, efficient purge is a skill I have to slot. Working a ram requires it because of the heavy oils, they are ubiquitous and unavoidable. And as a DK I have to run purge because I have no class skills that do. I don’t have the magicka pool to run Cleanse. I see the need to reel purge in some because of ball groups. But purge is something I am able to contribute to others in my faction around me without being in any type of group let alone a ball group. Cold fire requires purge. Is everyone now going to be required to run purge if you can’t heal through it? Purge is important in PvE as well (e.g. dragon Soul Tear) and for trials. ZOS needs to make sure they balance even though purge is a PvP skill. If it’s limited to single target, that’s a really huge shift.

Greasytengu

Kadoin wrote: »

You know, eventually you have to die in the game and CC is a big part of it. The argument that purge is needed because of CC spam becomes completely invalidated when only organized groups can afford to spam it and gain all the advantages that come with it, while everyone else is subjected to the same CC the people supporting the OP purge mechanics claim is a problem. That only proves that the skill and mechanic itself is actually unbalanced, because it ultimately isn't available to everyone on an equal scale.

Literally anyone who has unlocked purge can slot and use it. You don't need to be in an organized group, any person in any sort of group whether it be small man, large man, zerg, ball group, and pug, can slot and use this ability. If people are refusing to group up then that is on them. Cyrodiil is not aimed at solo play and will likely never be balanced towards it.

Kadoin wrote: »

Also, there is no CC or debuff in the game that is "free" enough to compare to the ability to purge it. The cost of running debuffs across the board cost more than the ability to purge them, esp. when you take into account sets like curse eater, wyrd, stendarr, and earthgore. That's part of why purge and the other items with its mechanics is OP and why it definitely needs to be looked at.

Purge costs 7830 or 5400 Magicka to remove 3 debuffs. Its so costly that in "organized groups" they often have multiple people with it slotted just to spread out the cost of just reducing the amount of debuffs applied during a fight. I think you underestimate the sheer amount of debuffs applied during a large fight. Trust me, ive had to play purge-monkey and it just feels like trying to empty an ocean with a bucket.

You are right that it needs to be looked at though, the cost of it is so prohibitive that people think its an ability you have to be specifically built around its use.

Kadoin wrote: »

Purge mechanics have no counter, and they don't have a stacking cost and/or appropriate CD, so they have no downside. If we want to really describe purge as a mechanic, it's ultimately damage reduction with absolutely no counter. That's essentially what it is, always has been, and apparently will be in the future if ZOS doesn't take any action.

The counter is reapplying your debuffs until they run out of resources, or alternatively, figure out who is purging and separate them from their group via unpurgeable CCs like pulls and knockdowns. The latter is harder to do, but very cost effective.

Kadoin wrote: »

And since defile and DoTs are the only counter to some builds (actually all good builds this patch only have this counter), then right now purge mechanics offer the most damage reduction out of any other mechanic in the game. I'm not going to even lie about it, but it's not like it matters anyway to ZOS since they don't care about balance. Guess it will have to be proven during that double AP test coming up soon...Look forward to it.

Most of the unkillible ball groups have been running Bastion of the Heartland + Thrassian Stranglers, that might be the builds you are thinking of? If so, then that combo is getting nerfed next patch.

I have never actually seen a build that is countered by DoTs, as DoTs are easily mitigated by healing. There is a reason why big bursts of concentrated damage delivered too quick to heal have been a staple stagey of bombers and ball groups. Defiles on the other hand are just absurdly good against any build.


I am looking forward to the tests coming up. While my preferred build will be hit hard by the changes, I hope that some usefull data is generated, though sadly I beleive the lag is more hardware issue than anything. At the very least that cooldown on AOE abilities will likely reduce the amount of CCs going out, thus reducing the need for purging.

Kadoin

Greasytengu wrote: »

The counter is reapplying your debuffs until they run out of resources, or alternatively, figure out who is purging and separate them from their group via unpurgeable CCs like pulls and knockdowns. The latter is harder to do, but very cost effective.

There is no debuff a player can put on you in PvP that doesn't get removed by purge mechanics. But you're free to believe otherwise.

Greasytengu

Kadoin wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

The counter is reapplying your debuffs until they run out of resources, or alternatively, figure out who is purging and separate them from their group via unpurgeable CCs like pulls and knockdowns. The latter is harder to do, but very cost effective.

There is no debuff a player can put on you in PvP that doesn't get removed by purge mechanics. But you're free to believe otherwise.

You literally cannot purge a pull or knock down.

Crash427

People not in ballgroups think we purge everything right away. Meanwhile in a ballgroup: