Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

JanTanhide

If this goes live the game is done. No way people are going to play a mess like that.

d3adpain

well it's not surprising but i dont think cooldowns are the right direction
they should bring back aoe caps, make it like that you can hit only up to 3-5 with aoe's
and then make aoe ults with little bigger cap like 6-10 players
also aoe cap of healing like ritual of retribution, healing springs etc.

as people gonna rage about it, at least its something for start and for better performance i don't mind
turing live cyrodiil for couple of days inside 2 weeks - month for testing server,think its would be better then 4 long weeks

jaws343

Cinbri wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert there is 3 points:
1. You must understand that all negative effects you described are caused by ballgroups. Its going simple as that, literally everything you described is abused by ball-groups and for taht reason prime-time cyro unplayable: even with locked population its fine but as soon as ballgroup logging in and starting to spam AoEs by specialized group members - cyro suddenly becoming unplayable. So, remove overperforming skills from this kind of play (like Alliance Purge witch cant be spammed by anyone but gallgroup specialized member so-called "purge spammer"). For that reason even with rudiculous cost increase of AoE skill - you wont affect positive result as main offender that cause lag will be able to bypass this limitation.
2. Its drastically affect class balance as some classes based on AoE like dk, templar, warden, while others in single target damage. Any changes to AoEs without huge additional overhauls of those "aoe-heavy classes" will defacto means classes get nerfed for perfomance reason while other classes untouched. And that lead to 3rd problem:
3. And third problem that which I, as Templar, think is ruddiculous

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.

^^ Templar wont be able to use its spammable. This is by itself means that Templars are autoamtically excluded from Test 2.

" We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary."

It was already acknowledged that any changes would require class adjustments as well.

WAMB0

tim99 wrote: »

hollywood wrote: »

So , the AoE spamming blobs cause much of the lag issues.. WHO WOULD HAVE TOUGHT.

And still (ball-)groups doing it constantly, knowing but not caring about anything.
So basically players broke their own favorite game, and these are the results. Hope u r proud of yourself now.

The game offers it, the game allows it, the game cant handle it.
So the player broke their own game? If you rent a car that allows max 200km/h and it falls apart at 180 its your fault as well, yeah?

Ramber

Dottzgaming wrote: »

This unfortunately will probably get a "positive" performance result. Combat is going to slow down to a grinding hault, so performance will improve since people will be playing the game at a significantly slower speed.

ESO's hallmark feature is it's combat speed and fluidity, especially for PvP. Cooldowns shouldn't be introduced into a system that was fundamentally designed to not have them. Period.

Spoken like a true aoe user

Atherakhia

Ode2Order wrote: »

People, please read, these tests are only gonna affect things in Cyrodiil, not in PVE or even BG.

I wouldn't count on that hold up.

The absolute worst thing any game can do is make their skills work fundamentally different in one game mode compared to another. This isn't like just cutting damage in half. This is literally changing the way a skill works. if they made this change in PvP, it would only be a matter of time till they made it in PvE as well.

And it's worth noting that something like 75% of the skills in this game are AE. Perhaps they should have caught this problem sooner when only 50% or 25% of the skills were AE?

JonnytheKing

JUst Chill guys , give them a chance

SpacemanSpiff1

Test 5- turn-based combat.

One player in one alliance gets a turn to either cast a skill, use a siege weapon, repair a structure, use a transitus station, or move 10 meters. When that turn is over, one player in a different alliance gets a turn to do the same. This cycles through all three alliances. This should greatly limit desyncing combat and movement in Cyrodiil.

Scaletho

I appreciate ZoS efforts in the matter. At this point, at least in the perspective of a non-hardcore PvP player, the Cyrodiil lag experience has become unbearable.
I really believe that at this point a huge number of Cyrodiil"s Alliance players belong to Ball Groups of "Tanky" Trolls, impossible to fight against, almost in GOD mode. Ebonheart Pact balls groups -- for instance -- are notoriously powerful, unstoppable most of the time.
PvP should be a strategic field where players try to best their opponents using several skills, in funny men-to-men battles and epic sieges.
At this point PvP's Cyrodiil became a field of Ball groups farming each other or any "weak" player which have the unfortunate bad luck to stand in their way. No fun battles, no different use of skills, no diversity or strategy.
This must change for the sake of the PvP relevance.
I KNOW that many other ppl disagree with me. But I still think the absurd lagging and the borderline cheating of those "Ball Groups" are destroying all the fun and relevance to be at Cyrodiil.

Cinbri

jaws343 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert there is 3 points:
1. You must understand that all negative effects you described are caused by ballgroups. Its going simple as that, literally everything you described is abused by ball-groups and for taht reason prime-time cyro unplayable: even with locked population its fine but as soon as ballgroup logging in and starting to spam AoEs by specialized group members - cyro suddenly becoming unplayable. So, remove overperforming skills from this kind of play (like Alliance Purge witch cant be spammed by anyone but gallgroup specialized member so-called "purge spammer"). For that reason even with rudiculous cost increase of AoE skill - you wont affect positive result as main offender that cause lag will be able to bypass this limitation.
2. Its drastically affect class balance as some classes based on AoE like dk, templar, warden, while others in single target damage. Any changes to AoEs without huge additional overhauls of those "aoe-heavy classes" will defacto means classes get nerfed for perfomance reason while other classes untouched. And that lead to 3rd problem:
3. And third problem that which I, as Templar, think is ruddiculous

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.

^^ Templar wont be able to use its spammable. This is by itself means that Templars are autoamtically excluded from Test 2.

" We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary."

It was already acknowledged that any changes would require class adjustments as well.

Yes, but as I wrote - any templar who play typical melee build, i.e. using Jabs, simply wont be able to particiapte in this test.

jecks33

""For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.""


LOL.... just LOL

StarOfElyon

I appreciate your hard work ZOS but if cool downs are the solution, then it sounds like we've finally reached the end of ESO.

I would have thought it was the champion system. This is more or less an impasse.

CleymenZero

Are you really considering introducing a cool-down or cost ramp up on spammables?

I could understand for things like engulfing flames, ritual, springs etc but a spammable???!!!?!!??

Maybe think on it a bit more before bringing this? It's not uncommon for a Templar to use 2 consecutive jabs, you really need to take time to rethink this idea and I won't be the only one thinking this.

It's no use trying to work on the health of the game when you're fundamentally killing off parts of it like an entire class...

Kinetiks

Is this an out of season April Fools joke?

technohic

Cinbri wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert there is 3 points:
1. You must understand that all negative effects you described are caused by ballgroups. Its going simple as that, literally everything you described is abused by ball-groups and for taht reason prime-time cyro unplayable: even with locked population its fine but as soon as ballgroup logging in and starting to spam AoEs by specialized group members - cyro suddenly becoming unplayable. So, remove overperforming skills from this kind of play (like Alliance Purge witch cant be spammed by anyone but gallgroup specialized member so-called "purge spammer"). For that reason even with rudiculous cost increase of AoE skill - you wont affect positive result as main offender that cause lag will be able to bypass this limitation.
2. Its drastically affect class balance as some classes based on AoE like dk, templar, warden, while others in single target damage. Any changes to AoEs without huge additional overhauls of those "aoe-heavy classes" will defacto means classes get nerfed for perfomance reason while other classes untouched. And that lead to 3rd problem:
3. And third problem that which I, as Templar, think is ruddiculous

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.

^^ Templar wont be able to use its spammable. This is by itself means that Templars are autoamtically excluded from Test 2.

As Cinbri describes. A blanket test really hurts some classes considerably more than others that are not responsible for the spam.

You could try using a scalpal rather than a hammer and try starting with cross heals and purify. Or things that seem like they are not intended to be spammed like siege shield. Maybe even the AOE root spam. Just asking you exempt obvious abilities that are not spammed to create a situation but as they are designed. Jabs is designed to be spammed. Shalks and Blastbones already have natural Cool downs because they are delayed.

That actually gives me an idea. Rather than Cool Down or rebuff timer; why not take some of these abilities and make them have a delay from activation to where they just don't go off if you hit them again?

red_emu

So basically, delete templar?

[snip]

MagSorc can spam Force Pulse every 1 second with no cooldown / penalty but a Templar has to wait 3 seconds or have their sustain killed?

If this is the direction, the combat team is heading in: can we please make sure, that class and weapon 'spammables' are excluded from this?

I completely understand putting a cool down on AOE skills that ball groups abuse to deal stupid amounts of damage every second and cleanse the group 2-4 times per GCD, but to punish solo/small scale players for the sake of perfomance? I am completely confused. This would widen the gap between organised group play vs everything else into an enormous canyon.

Another thing ZOS team seem to be forgetting is that non-CP already has a high skill ceiling when it comes to healing and sustain. First you kill off healing, now you take away any means of dealing damage in a dynamic way? If this is the idea, please remove the non-CP option from the game completely, as under those terms, it will be completely unplayable.

If the proposed changes are found to be what your dev team intends to put into the game, there will have to be a lot of changes to skills. For example:

Currently: Sweeps: deal 4 x 1000 damage for 1000 stamina. GCD
Changed: Sweeps: deal 4 x 3000 damage for 3000 stamina. 3s cool-down

This would be the only way not to destroy classes that have AoE rules built into their spammables!

Lastly, ramping up cost of abilities would be the death of non-CP PvP. Please do not forget you have a NON-CP mode in this game!!! CP PvP is not 99% of the player base!

[Minor edit for Bashing.]

Neoauspex

I'm all for it, it's a test. If the test doesn't make the game better just revert.

Kadoin

You want to fix performance? Start with fixing the keep reloading bug you guys seem to have abandoned when the game crashed. You know that bug is still there and lags and crashes people more than any fighting in the game does.

Second, if sustain and over-sustaining is an issue, then why, exactly did you guys even introduce mythics that allow you to spec more in sustain and defense in the first place? Did you seriously underestimate the minds of the players?

Third, how are you going to address balance when some classes will get hit harder than others, and mag in general will get debuffed harder when costs are already higher than stam? So much AoE and checks are built into mag abilities, does that mean that nearly every skill won't be cast or have a cooldown and light attack proc-sets are the go-to?

Fourth, as stated, now for certain, with such changes proc builds that already have the advantage will have an even greater advantage v. stat builds. Yeah, PvP dead.

Athyrium93

Why not just delete Templars and be done with it? Cause that's what this change does except with extra steps....

Putting a 3 second cooldown on a SPAMABLE specifically the only decent one Templars have.... and on our heals? Seriously not okay.

I can't say how this will effect other classes but it will cripple Templar

CleymenZero

jecks33 wrote: »

""For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.""


LOL.... just LOL

What's wrong with that? What's wrong with slapping a 3 second cool-down on a class spammable? I don't see any issue here, stop complaining! IT'S A SPAMMABLE! IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE SPAMMED!!!!!

MellowMagic

Explain how a stamina templar is supposed to kill anyone with 1 jab every 3 seconds are we getting 2 new abilities to compensate?These tests are ridiculous, is water wet? let's waste everyone's time to find out.

Cinbri

technohic wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert there is 3 points:
1. You must understand that all negative effects you described are caused by ballgroups. Its going simple as that, literally everything you described is abused by ball-groups and for taht reason prime-time cyro unplayable: even with locked population its fine but as soon as ballgroup logging in and starting to spam AoEs by specialized group members - cyro suddenly becoming unplayable. So, remove overperforming skills from this kind of play (like Alliance Purge witch cant be spammed by anyone but gallgroup specialized member so-called "purge spammer"). For that reason even with rudiculous cost increase of AoE skill - you wont affect positive result as main offender that cause lag will be able to bypass this limitation.
2. Its drastically affect class balance as some classes based on AoE like dk, templar, warden, while others in single target damage. Any changes to AoEs without huge additional overhauls of those "aoe-heavy classes" will defacto means classes get nerfed for perfomance reason while other classes untouched. And that lead to 3rd problem:
3. And third problem that which I, as Templar, think is ruddiculous

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.

^^ Templar wont be able to use its spammable. This is by itself means that Templars are autoamtically excluded from Test 2.

As Cinbri describes. A blanket test really hurts some classes considerably more than others that are not responsible for the spam.

You could try using a scalpal rather than a hammer and try starting with cross heals and purify. Or things that seem like they are not intended to be spammed like siege shield. Maybe even the AOE root spam. Just asking you exempt obvious abilities that are not spammed to create a situation but as they are designed. Jabs is designed to be spammed. Shalks and Blastbones already have natural Cool downs because they are delayed.

That actually gives me an idea. Rather than Cool Down or rebuff timer; why not take some of these abilities and make them have a delay from activation to where they just don't go off if you hit them again?

I guess its time to push again for Jabs' overhaul to be templar version Flurry - single target targetable hard-hitting channel.

driosketch

I appreciate you working on addressing the performance issues in Cyrodiil. I also understand this is all for testing purposes, and that 3 secs cooldown is not going to be a final patch implementation. That said, your choice of examples makes me feel like Moe from the Simpsons episode, Bart's Comet.

Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.

"Oh, dear God, no!"

Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.

"Oh, dear God, no!"

Ramber

AOEs in PvP are a massive crutch to casual players. Its a joke of a way to play and takes all the fun out of the game. id be happy to see how groups that depend on them would/could play w.o them.

JiChaMa

What about sieges?
higher cooldown on sieges too plz.
They cause a lot of lag.

Elsonso

Ode2Order wrote: »

H o w e v e r
The constant loading screen issue also exists in Craglorn, where it is arguably even worse (sometimes can't even catch a breather to teleport OUT of there). There are no issues with skill casting, as I doubt there are that many AOEs being spammed there, but obviously I don't have the numbers. The issue sometimes even persists in Craglorn trials, mostly in Aetherian Archive (from anecdotal experience). What I would like to ask is if you could look into that zone as well please?

Unrelated to this test.

"Intermittent Load Screens: It's a source of frustration for everyone when you're running around Tamriel and you're intermittently hit with short load screens. We've identified two areas where this behavior could occur. The first issue is a bug with streaming of scaled assets that are switching between LOD models and main models. This should go to the live servers with an upcoming U26 incremental. The second issue is regarding a bug that could cause the game to have much bigger physics streaming radius when a high view distance is selected, resulting in more loads than necessary. This fix will release with U27. We will be actively monitoring the live server metrics after U27 releases to determine if additional investigation and work is needed."

code65536 wrote: »

So the elephant in the room is... if this test confirms your hypothesis, will you be limiting your adjustments to just PvP?

I bet the answer is "no" as this probably happens in places like Trials. Also, if it does not, there will be a skill difference between PVE and PVP.

technohic

Neoauspex wrote: »

I'm all for it, it's a test. If the test doesn't make the game better just revert.

I am all for it as well as it finally appears to be a serious effort to address the problem. I don't feel like they have otherwise. I just ask for them to be a little more precise during testing rather than full force blanket setups.

Firstmep

Remove smart healing, especially from aoe heals and thing like radiating regen.
Every time you cast it the server has to make a list of players in range, then choose the lowest hp target(s) and then run thru all the usual calculations like cp, healing bonuses etc.
Multiply this by 20,30 times in a ballgroup every second, and you start to see the problem.
It's really not hard to figure this out pls don't destroy combat.
@ZOS_RichLambert

The_Shadowborn

I mean these changes are so dramatic and yes will improve performance but hamstring practically all larger scale PvP.

Could also try limiting groups to 12 only allowing heals and other buffs to be purely group wide. Surely reducing stress on the server

Niaver

Also, why not simply decrease map player count per group as @FENGRUSH suggested multiple times?