Where is Snowhawk in Greymoor?

vilio11

Snowhawk is major city in Arena. It was a rival of Solitude in terms of size and wealth but by 4e200, all that remains is ruins.
Did ZoS just forgot about that city?

Aristocles22

Budget and time constraints, probably.

JD2013

I was wondering this myself.

Looks like it's been retconned to my eyes, probably time constraints and budget etc.

Bear in mind that the Vvardenfell chapter had 3 major settlements in Balmora, Vivec City and Sadrith Mora, Summerset had Shimmerene and Alinor as hub places, Northern Elsweyr had Rimmen and Riverhold and Greymoor has Solitude as a major city, Morthal that barely exists and Dragon Bridge which in this time is basically a camp.

Given that they have certainly added things in lore from Arena, it's a little disappointing that Snowhawk was left out.

Foefaller

Maybe the city hasn't been founded yet? 800 years is more than enough time for one to spring up, and AFAIK there isn't any lore confirming its existence before the events of Arena, much less during the Second Era.

The_Drop_Bear

vilio11 wrote: »

Snowhawk is major city in Arena. It was a rival of Solitude in terms of size and wealth but by 4e200, all that remains is ruins.
Did ZoS just forgot about that city?

Snowhawk was likely retconned out if existence. It doesn't exist and there is no trace of it in Skyrim or ESO.

Arena was the first game and lots in it is no longer canon. For example in arena you go into red mountain and don't have any issues with the ghost fence, or corpus or Dagoth despite the fact they were around.

Enodoc

Foefaller wrote: »

Maybe the city hasn't been founded yet? 800 years is more than enough time for one to spring up, and AFAIK there isn't any lore confirming its existence before the events of Arena, much less during the Second Era.

Yeah I think this is quite likely. And then by 4E 201, it's destroyed, possibly by the Oblivion crisis.

PrayingSeraph

The_Drop_Bear wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

Snowhawk is major city in Arena. It was a rival of Solitude in terms of size and wealth but by 4e200, all that remains is ruins.
Did ZoS just forgot about that city?

Snowhawk was likely retconned out if existence. It doesn't exist and there is no trace of it in Skyrim or ESO.

Arena was the first game and lots in it is no longer canon. For example in arena you go into red mountain and don't have any issues with the ghost fence, or corpus or Dagoth despite the fact they were around.

This. Arena isn't a very great lore source anymore. Its normal for really early games if longstanding franchises get retconned a lot.

Aigym_Hlervu

The_Drop_Bear wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

Snowhawk is major city in Arena. It was a rival of Solitude in terms of size and wealth but by 4e200, all that remains is ruins.
Did ZoS just forgot about that city?

Snowhawk was likely retconned out if existence. It doesn't exist and there is no trace of it in Skyrim or ESO.

Arena was the first game and lots in it is no longer canon. For example in arena you go into red mountain and don't have any issues with the ghost fence, or corpus or Dagoth despite the fact they were around.

It does exist in both in the Skyrim and ESO - why are you so confident it doesn't? If it doesn't, then what was the battefield's name of the Battle for Fort Snowhawk? Here's the picture of the Snowhawk ruins of 4E 201:


Moreover, Snowhawk is mentioned in the Snowhawk Mage Style's name in ESO and this city exists there, though as a regional town, called Karthwatch. If you look at the ESO map of the place, you'll see that the town is located exactly at the place of the future Snowhawk. It just hasn't changed it's name yet.

Regarding the Ghostfence. The events of the First Elder Scroll take place in Tamriel of the 3E 389 - 3E 399. The Intermittent Tribunal campaigns to assault Red Mountain are performed in 2E 882-3E 417 until the Tribunes lose the Tools. According to the Ancestors and the Dunmer, the Great Ghost Fence was created by the Tribunal to hold back the Blight - this reason was first mentioned as a serious trouble by the year of 3E 400 in this document. Since the real reason to build the fence happened in 3E 400 and since there is no Great Ghostfence in 3E 389 - 3E 399, then the logic tells us, that the wall was constructed some time between 3E 400 and 3E 417 (when it is mentioned as an already maintained facility). The same way you can understand how was that even possible we haven't met Dagoth Ur in TES I and etc. It is a mistake to think that lots of things shown in TES I are no more canon.

Foefaller

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

The_Drop_Bear wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

Snowhawk is major city in Arena. It was a rival of Solitude in terms of size and wealth but by 4e200, all that remains is ruins.
Did ZoS just forgot about that city?

Snowhawk was likely retconned out if existence. It doesn't exist and there is no trace of it in Skyrim or ESO.

Arena was the first game and lots in it is no longer canon. For example in arena you go into red mountain and don't have any issues with the ghost fence, or corpus or Dagoth despite the fact they were around.

It does exist in both in the Skyrim and ESO - why are you so confident it doesn't? If it doesn't, then what was the battefield's name of the Battle for Fort Snowhawk? Here's the picture of the Snowhawk ruins of 4E 201:


Moreover, Snowhawk is mentioned in the Snowhawk Mage Style's name in ESO and this city exists there, though as a regional town, called Karthwatch. If you look at the ESO map of the place, you'll see that the town is located exactly at the place of the future Snowhawk. It just hasn't changed it's name yet.

Regarding the Ghostfence. The events of the First Elder Scroll take place in Tamriel of the 3E 389 - 3E 399. The Intermittent Tribunal campaigns to assault Red Mountain are performed in 2E 882-3E 417 until the Tribunes lose the Tools. According to the Ancestors and the Dunmer, the Great Ghost Fence was created by the Tribunal to hold back the Blight - this reason was first mentioned as a serious trouble by the year of 3E 400 in this document. Since the real reason to build the fence happened in 3E 400 and since there is no Great Ghostfence in 3E 389 - 3E 399, then the logic tells us, that the wall was constructed some time between 3E 400 and 3E 417 (when it is mentioned as an already maintained facility). The same way you can understand how was that even possible we haven't met Dagoth Ur in TES I and etc. It is a mistake to think that lots of things shown in TES I are no more canon.

Keep in mind, a part of the reason for Khajiit furstocks (which first showed up in Morrowind) was to explain why Khajiit went from "Humans with catlike tatoos" in Arena to "Humans with tails" in Daggerfall to "cat-people" in Morrowind.

One of the TES devs for Morrowind (think Michael Kirkbride?) Have comfirmed the Arena Khajiit is an Ohmes furstock, and though unconfirmed, Daggerfall is probably an Ohmes-raht.

One of the fun things about TES lore is the steps they have taken to avoid retconning things, particularly the genius move of explaining away some of the parts of the lore that outright contradict each other due to being subjected to changes over the millennia due to cultural drift and reinterpretations of the original, "true" tale.

Enodoc

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

The_Drop_Bear wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

Snowhawk is major city in Arena. It was a rival of Solitude in terms of size and wealth but by 4e200, all that remains is ruins.
Did ZoS just forgot about that city?

Snowhawk was likely retconned out if existence. It doesn't exist and there is no trace of it in Skyrim or ESO.

Arena was the first game and lots in it is no longer canon. For example in arena you go into red mountain and don't have any issues with the ghost fence, or corpus or Dagoth despite the fact they were around.

It does exist in both in the Skyrim and ESO - why are you so confident it doesn't? If it doesn't, then what was the battefield's name of the Battle for Fort Snowhawk? Here's the picture of the Snowhawk ruins of 4E 201:

We are primarily talking about Snowhawk the city, not the Imperial fort that was named after it. There is no trace of the city in either Skyrim or ESO.

Aigym_Hlervu

Enodoc wrote: »

There is no trace of the city in either Skyrim or ESO.

Once again regarding ESO:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

this city exists there, though as a regional town, called Karthwatch. If you look at the ESO map of the place, you'll see that the town is located exactly at the place of the future Snowhawk. It just hasn't changed it's name yet.

Regarding TES V: Fort Snowhawk of the Fourth Era is located at the same point the city was in 3E 389 - 3E 399 - this is all what is left of that city.

Foefaller

So, doing a bit more research into it, I think I have an answer:

It's Morthal.

I mean, it's right there next to Fort Snowhawk, which is relatively where Snowhawk is in Arena.

...But there is no Morthal in Arena, not even a village.

So it could be that during the intervening centuries Morthal grew into Snowhawk. Or Snowhawk was founded where Fort Snowhawk is and grew to absorb Morthal, but between Arena and Skyrim (probably thanks to the Oblivion Crisis, or maybe encroaching marshland? Online Morthal seems a bit... drier than in Skyrim) the main Keep that in Skyrim is now Fort Snowhawk was abandoned, and the town shrank back down to Morthal.

Foefaller

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

There is no trace of the city in either Skyrim or ESO.

Once again regarding ESO:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

this city exists there, though as a regional town, called Karthwatch. If you look at the ESO map of the place, you'll see that the town is located exactly at the place of the future Snowhawk. It just hasn't changed it's name yet.

Regarding TES V: Fort Snowhawk of the Fourth Era is located at the same point the city was in 3E 389 - 3E 399 - this is all what is left of that city.

Actually, Karthwatch in ESO, is a perfect lineup for Broken Tower Redoubt for Skyrim, which is far too south to be the future Snowhawk.

I think Snowhawk being the Once and Future Morthal makes more sense, at least in terms of geography.

Bruccius

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/8/88/FortSnowhawkMap.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/360?cb=20120304203611

Please witness above image for those saying Snowhawk exists in ESO. It doesn't.

At least, not as a full-fledged settlement, or fort. In ESO, Snowhawk should be located where Havil's Farmhouse is currently. As to why Snowhawk was removed... God knows? I certainly don't.

Aigym_Hlervu

Bruccius wrote: »

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/8/88/FortSnowhawkMap.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/360?cb=20120304203611

Please witness above image for those saying Snowhawk exists in ESO. It doesn't.

At least, not as a full-fledged settlement, or fort. In ESO, Snowhawk should be located where Havil's Farmhouse is currently. As to why Snowhawk was removed... God knows? I certainly don't.

Thank you for that image, Bruccius - it shows I was wrong about Fort Snowhawk and TES V. I always looked at that map from a bit eastern perspective and and the fort seemed to me to be located further in the West. I agree now that Karthwatch is located at the samd spot the Broken Tower Redoubt in TES V. Thanks again!

Regarding ESO - the TES I map I referenced up there and the map in ESO shows a settlement strictly at the South-West if we go from Solitude, through the Dragon Bridge village. It is Snowhawk in TES I and Karthwatch in ESO. No other settlements correspond there. So this means the city was established as Karthwatch as the capital of Karthald hold before 2E 582, then it was renamed after 2E 852 after Tiber Septim's campaigns in the Reach and existed as Snowhawk city in 3E 389 - 3E 399, but was somehow abandoned by 4E 201 with only the Broken Tower Redoubt ruins left of it. Ah, this is all just a pure geography here based on that TES I poorly detailed map, but no other settlements seem to be present around to play the role of the Third Era Snowhawk, if only those Second Era Karthwatch and thd Fourth Era Broken Tower Redoubt.

Foefaller

I'm telling you guys, Snowhawk was and will be Morthal.

Here's the map of Skyrim for Arena:



Morthal is missing on that map, but yet somehow exists in ESO. And Snowhawk is almost where it should be, if you assume Karthwasten Hall is Karthwasten in Skyrim, which is across the river from Broken Tower Redoubt/ESO's Karthwatch.

It seems to me that Morthal was either renamed to or absorbed by Snowhawk sometime between ESO and Arena, only for it to go back to Morthal by Skyrim.

My guess for reverting back was that Snowhawk was all but destroyed on the Oblivion Crisis, and only the part that was once Morthal was resettled afterwards.

As for the lack of ruins, I figure there is a twofold explanation; first is that if resettlement occured almost immediately, any buildings that were standing were likely torn down for their materials. The second is that, for a city to be built where Fort Snowhawk/Morthal is, there would have to be a major levee and dam system to push back the marsh and dry out the land. If that was broken during the Oblivion Crisis, with marsh water flooding back in, then pretty much anything made out of stone would start sinking, and two centuries *might* be just long enough for much of it to be below the surface or waterline, especially if there was nothing left but foundations.

Supreme_Atromancer

Snowhawk's existence is supported by Oblivion, ESO, Arena and Skyrim. The former 2 both suggest locations, but given that Bethesda made significant location retcons of the Arena map (see Markarth), and given that ESO's Western Skyrim map matches so very closely to TESV's version, Skyrim's placement seems the better argument - across from Morthal and many miles from Karthwatch.

Karthwatch's location has a corresponding point on the TESV map - right of the bridge across the Karth River, with its back against the ridge. Broken Tower Redoubt stands there in Skyrim, which isn't surprising given the events of the Western Skyrim story. If you follow the reachman tunnels near Karthwatch, south under the ridge, you will arrive at a location corresponding to Red Eagle Ascent, resurface and follow the ridge north, looking down to the Karth River, and climb Sundered Towers to get to the ridge directly above Karthwatch/BTR.

Snowhawk is clearly acknowledged to exist by the developers - the existence of the style pages tells us that. The idea that it might have been Morthal (despite Snowhalk mages being a thing), then Snowhark for several centuries, then Morthal again seems a bit contrived to me. But whet the developers intend for it remains a mystery for now.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Foefaller wrote: »

I'm telling you guys, Snowhawk was and will be Morthal.

Here's the map of Skyrim for Arena:



Morthal is missing on that map, but yet somehow exists in ESO. And Snowhawk is almost where it should be, if you assume Karthwasten Hall is Karthwasten in Skyrim, which is across the river from Broken Tower Redoubt/ESO's Karthwatch.

It seems to me that Morthal was either renamed to or absorbed by Snowhawk sometime between ESO and Arena, only for it to go back to Morthal by Skyrim.

My guess for reverting back was that Snowhawk was all but destroyed on the Oblivion Crisis, and only the part that was once Morthal was resettled afterwards.

As for the lack of ruins, I figure there is a twofold explanation; first is that if resettlement occured almost immediately, any buildings that were standing were likely torn down for their materials. The second is that, for a city to be built where Fort Snowhawk/Morthal is, there would have to be a major levee and dam system to push back the marsh and dry out the land. If that was broken during the Oblivion Crisis, with marsh water flooding back in, then pretty much anything made out of stone would start sinking, and two centuries *might* be just long enough for much of it to be below the surface or waterline, especially if there was nothing left but foundations.

Morthal is farther southeast of Solitude than where Snowhawk lands on that map. The placement puts the city closer to the Chillwind Depths Delve or the Ritual Site.

OtarTheMad

Foefaller wrote: »

I'm telling you guys, Snowhawk was and will be Morthal.

Here's the map of Skyrim for Arena:



Morthal is missing on that map, but yet somehow exists in ESO. And Snowhawk is almost where it should be, if you assume Karthwasten Hall is Karthwasten in Skyrim, which is across the river from Broken Tower Redoubt/ESO's Karthwatch.

It seems to me that Morthal was either renamed to or absorbed by Snowhawk sometime between ESO and Arena, only for it to go back to Morthal by Skyrim.

My guess for reverting back was that Snowhawk was all but destroyed on the Oblivion Crisis, and only the part that was once Morthal was resettled afterwards.

As for the lack of ruins, I figure there is a twofold explanation; first is that if resettlement occured almost immediately, any buildings that were standing were likely torn down for their materials. The second is that, for a city to be built where Fort Snowhawk/Morthal is, there would have to be a major levee and dam system to push back the marsh and dry out the land. If that was broken during the Oblivion Crisis, with marsh water flooding back in, then pretty much anything made out of stone would start sinking, and two centuries *might* be just long enough for much of it to be below the surface or waterline, especially if there was nothing left but foundations.

Seeing as the Arena map has some inaccuracies, like Greenwall's location, you can guess that Snowhawk can be anywhere. Heck we might find that the city is close to Chilblain Peak Ritual Site, being West of it maybe, but in the Reach hold. So maybe that will be a town/city we have for the Q4 story DLC zone.

Karthwatch is no doubt Broken Tower Redoubt.

Morthal is kind of closer to Dunstad Grove area I think, so maybe Dunstad Grove was renamed.

EDIT- As Endoc mentioned Snowhawk, by Skyrim's time, could have easily been destroyed in the Oblivion Crisis and abandoned leaving only the fort. However, the fort we see in Skyrim could have just been named after the fallen town.

Supreme_Atromancer

OtarTheMad wrote: »

EDIT- As Endoc mentioned Snowhawk, by Skyrim's time, could have easily been destroyed in the Oblivion Crisis and abandoned leaving only the fort. However, the fort we see in Skyrim could have just been named after the fallen town.

Its not outside the realm of real-world reality, but it seems kinda unnecessarily contrived given that ESO tends to make the world as familiar as possible.

ESO's Western Skyrim map so closely mirrors TES5's that it cannot be a mistake that there is no tower, nor town in the location it appears in the Skyrim game. It must be deliberate. But so is the mention of a group of Mages with the same name. Either they've made a lore mistake, or we have yet to see more.

Kajuratus

Heh, the first thing I did when logging onto the PTS way back when was to see if they had added Snowhawk to the game with the new chapter. Turns out TES V's location of the fort in ESO is just a spawn point for a Wispmother and a chest. Its a shame, ZOS have shown interest in re-introducing areas from Arena, Nimalten springs to mind. Alas, they were more interested in having Morthal in their game instead of giving us something new. Even though Morthal had no place in the lore whatsoever until Skyrim came along in 2011. Yes, there was mention of Morthal in ESO before Greymoor came along, but they could have turned Morthal into small hamlet and made Snowhawk the capital of Hjaalmarch hold, showing the landscape of Western Skyrim in a different time compared to TES V. Instead Snowhawk is now a city that only seems to exist in the third era, and Morthal exists in the second era, has zero mention of its presence in the third era, and returns in the 4th era? Just screams of nostalgia bait to me. When making the Morrowind chapter, didn't they have 3 separate rankings for what specifics they could take from TES III? Like "this HAS to be there, this COULD be there, and this CAN'T be there." Which led to us getting Seyda Neen because it was one of those things that COULD exist at ESO's point in time, and they felt that they couldn't leave it out because they felt that players would be too attached to it. Is Morthal really one of those places that we absolutely had to have in the game, or that players would be too attached to?

ealdwin

If we are considering the location of where Snowhawk should be, it might be better to go off of the location as it is presented in TES: V, rather than trying to compare the maps from Arena and Skyrim. The problem with the latter method, is in the drastic number of disparities between the two maps. For example:

In Arena there is a town called Dunstad Grove. It appears that this town is roughly where Morthal is in Skyrim, so perhaps the name changed. Morthal > Dunstad Grove > Morthal. However, there is a fort in Skyrim called Fort Dunstad, that sits south of Dawnstar. This fort in turn sits where Dunpar Wall seems to sit in Arena.

Other problems include Falcrenth (Falkreath) sitting a bit too far south, with Oakwood being closer to the location of Falkreath in Skyrim. Amol is a town west of Windhelm in Arena, however in Skyrim, Fort Amol is located much further south, along the border of Riften. In Arena, Sunguard the town is northwest of Riften, near Nimalten, whereas Fort Sunguard is on the border of Whiterun and the Reach.

One plausible explanation, is that the Nords are just so frequently drunk they have a nasty tendency to sporadically change the names and locations of towns whenever the mead tells them too.

OR, as the lore for Skyrim became more defined over the years, towns were moved accordingly, and their positions in Arena can no longer be used for strictly determining where they should sit.