Making Crafters More Valuable?

lethality_ESO

I've only been around actively playing for about 2 months (despite my account join date … but I understand the Outfit system wasn't always a part of the game?

One of the coolest things about ESO for the type of game it is, is it's crafting system... completely viable at all times, but also adding elements of customization that could make crafters valuable (I.e. with a specific trait, or a motif style, or both!)

To me, the outfit system completely devalued the motif styles... and eventually every dedicated crafter would have every trait researched as well.

So my question to some of you more advanced crafters and long time players - have they talked about improving crafting, and putting some value back on crafters?

For example, one idea might be to allow Trait+ research... if you've already researched a trait, being able to research it again to give it a slightly better boost. 10 levels of this on each trait would be cool!

I'm not sure what we could do to fix the motif problem... Maybe allow crafters with the motif to make the "NPC" style (i.e. look at current Dragonguard motif) rather than just whatever materials and dyes you want to use.

I would be glad to learn I am missing something, but if not, would like to hear from other long-time players and crafters!

Taleof2Cities

lethality_ESO wrote: »

So my question to some of you more advanced crafters and long time players - have they talked about improving crafting, and putting some value back on crafters?

The short answer is “no”, @lethality_ESO.

And the new Antiquities System is a stand-alone system which won’t benefit crafters much (exception maybe being the new motifs and enchanting Essence runes).

I’ve advocated before in the forums that ZOS really needs to get going on finding another use for style stones. Style stones were also rendered worthless after OneTamriel. Right now players only use a handful of them for housing furnishings and master writs.

The other big issue is that crafted sets for the most part are inferior to dropped sets. Hopefully they can take a pass on these and distribute buffs before the Q3 update.

Oliviander

As a long time crafter (knowing all motives in game) i think the system is quite generous to crafters.
If you do the crafting writs at max level (I can do that with 18 toons) that gives you a steady income
from the high drop rate (about 50% I guess) of legendary mats.
And knowing all motives you can do all the master writs that will drop that way.

The only thing I always didn't like are 2 inconsistencies that came with the outfit system

1. With the introduction of outfit styles the crown only motifs are no longer needed.
And I guess they noticed that the motives sell better if they are not exclusive to the crown store
So now we have 3 legacy crownstore exclusive motifs that in my opinion should become
in game motifs with corresponding master writs
Crown exclusive designs can be outfits or costumes

2. It would be great if all costumes would become outfits so we could combine them rather
than the costumes overriding the outfits.

katanagirl1

After spending so much time researching traits, I would be opposed to anything that would require more time for my crafters. Are you aware of how much time that requires for even 8 traits?

The outfit system has devalued crafters, but I do not try to make money selling crafted sets. Too much effort for too little gold because mats are expensive. I only use it for doing master writs and buying random furnishing envelopes to learn more furnishing plans.

idk

Zos improved the crafting system when they added transmutation. I think crafting is fine as it is and does not need to be made more complicated.

Eifleber

In ESO it is actually a bit silly is that what you wear and how you look are completely independent (except weapons).

Also you can not change the style/appearance of a set, which would be a major feature.
People don't want crafted sets but dungeon/trail drops, which come in 1 unchangable style.

Must say I find crafting in ESO quite disappointing.
From a RP'ish POV it would be so cool if you could make a set with the stats and look you want.
That dungeon gear would drop as a one use stats pattern that you could integrate with your armour crafting.

tmbrinks

Eifleber wrote: »

In ESO it is actually a bit silly is that what you wear and how you look are completely independent (except weapons).

Also you can not change the style/appearance of a set, which would be a major feature.
People don't want crafted sets but dungeon/trail drops, which come in 1 unchangable style.

Must say I find crafting in ESO quite disappointing.
From a RP'ish POV it would be so cool if you could make a set with the stats and look you want.
That dungeon gear would drop as a one use stats pattern that you could integrate with your armour crafting.

You can do that... it's called the outfit system!

lethality_ESO

katanagirl1 wrote: »

After spending so much time researching traits, I would be opposed to anything that would require more time for my crafters. Are you aware of how much time that requires for even 8 traits?

The outfit system has devalued crafters, but I do not try to make money selling crafted sets. Too much effort for too little gold because mats are expensive. I only use it for doing master writs and buying random furnishing envelopes to learn more furnishing plans.

I'm not sure I understand your response.

The entire idea of adding value being a crafter is crafting things not just everyone can do.

Who cares if it takes more time to research a trait 2, 3, 4 or more times? It's entirely passive, and if you get a slight boost to the item you make with that trait because of it each time, then YOU are a desired crafter.

I want to make it clear that a game like ESO makes crafting something you "also do", not as a primary progression path. So if the idea of making it more dedicated for crafters doesn't appeal to you, then you really aren't a crafter - you're just a player.

Make a crafting system for players that value and love to craft. That's what I'd like to see.

Outfit styles really screwed the pooch more than anything. If they can't roll that back out (and they can't) then they need to add value to crafters to make use MORE DESIRABLE vs just acquiring an outfit style.

Foefaller

lethality_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

After spending so much time researching traits, I would be opposed to anything that would require more time for my crafters. Are you aware of how much time that requires for even 8 traits?

The outfit system has devalued crafters, but I do not try to make money selling crafted sets. Too much effort for too little gold because mats are expensive. I only use it for doing master writs and buying random furnishing envelopes to learn more furnishing plans.

I'm not sure I understand your response.

The entire idea of adding value being a crafter is crafting things not just everyone can do.

Who cares if it takes more time to research a trait 2, 3, 4 or more times? It's entirely passive, and if you get a slight boost to the item you make with that trait because of it each time, then YOU are a desired crafter.

I want to make it clear that a game like ESO makes crafting something you "also do", not as a primary progression path. So if the idea of making it more dedicated for crafters doesn't appeal to you, then you really aren't a crafter - you're just a player.

Make a crafting system for players that value and love to craft. That's what I'd like to see.

Outfit styles really screwed the pooch more than anything. If they can't roll that back out (and they can't) then they need to add value to crafters to make use MORE DESIRABLE vs just acquiring an outfit style.

I think he's responding to the trait+ idea, which would either be more time waiting or have a tipping point were anyone can improve very quickly.

Pretty much every MMO I've played that made crafting a desirable/rewarding pursuit also had crafting being the primary/sole method of getting the best gear, whether that is the player economy of EVE or crafting Ascended gear in GW2. While GW2 did go hard towards that route shortly after making their own version of the outfit station, they were also up front since launch that their vertical progression would be about looks first and formost, not new/better gear stats. I'm not sure ESO's playerbase would be so willing to accept a change that would allow, say, crafting of dungeon or trial sets, unless the gear was account bound and the effort to be able to do so was comparable to farming the gear the old fashioned way.

Next best thing I can think of would be to give the equipment crafting skills something consumable to craft, but it would be a tricky thing; only two ideas I can think of would be Jewelcrafters can make special lockpicks with better Force Lock chances, and clothing could make... I dunno, strainers that could be used in alchemy to remove an unwanted effect? Something utility I think, rather than the new must-have buff or item to be taken seriously in a vet dungeon.

katanagirl1

@lethality_ESO I am most certainly a crafter. I have one 9 trait crafter in everything including jewelry and three other 8 trait crafters.

I don’t craft to make money but I craft to save money by doing it myself and to not be reliant on anyone else for anything.

I resent your remark as there was no need to make it.

lethality_ESO

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@lethality_ESO I am most certainly a crafter. I have one 9 trait crafter in everything including jewelry and three other 8 trait crafters.

I don’t craft to make money but I craft to save money by doing it myself and to not be reliant on anyone else for anything.

I resent your remark as there was no need to make it.

Well, this is not the discussion I wanted to have but since you seem to... you are exactly the type of non-crafter I am talking about.

You treat crafting as an alternative progression system for your character, something that allows you to avoid participating in the multiplayer aspects of the economy. That's not what a true crafter wants.

A true crafter wants to have an opportunity to stand out; have a reason other players seek them out; do something that few others can do.

You may be a dedicated ESO "crafter" but only because it's an optional system that's been presented to you that you don't mind managing. But I don't feel like you're a crafter in the spirit of what it means to... be a crafter.

And there's nothing wrong with that; everyone should be able to play the game how they want, and ZOS caters to that.

What I am asking about is something that would allow me to play the game *I* want also.

NavalOffisah

Who are you to determine what a "true" crafter is, or what a crafter wants?

Personally im a grand master crafter, and I would never want to be seeked out or be in demand. I craft primarily for myself, as well as other guild members. Having taken up zone requests before its generally just a headache. Not having correct mats, not knowing what's required, making me wait etc.

But aside, I feel that the current system is fine. The outfit system is great and ties in well with crafting knowledge. Writs are a great source of income between pure gold and the mats received. Trust me when I say no one wants research to take any longer than it already does.

lethality_ESO

NavalOffisah wrote: »

Who are you to determine what a "true" crafter is, or what a crafter wants?

Personally im a grand master crafter, and I would never want to be seeked out or be in demand. I craft primarily for myself, as well as other guild members. Having taken up zone requests before its generally just a headache. Not having correct mats, not knowing what's required, making me wait etc.

But aside, I feel that the current system is fine. The outfit system is great and ties in well with crafting knowledge. Writs are a great source of income between pure gold and the mats received. Trust me when I say no one wants research to take any longer than it already does.

I am slowly learning that the ESO community is made up of many people who want to avoid interacting with other people.

The outfit system flat out invalidates crafter knowledge.

Income for crafters should not be system-generated quests, it should be from player demand.

If you don't want research to take any longer, then guess what, don't do it? It will be left to the crafter who want to better themselves.. you know, who *enjoy* the process of getting better.

Lumsdenml

I don't have any issues with the crafting system as it is now except with one part of it. The sets I can craft. There are only a handful of sets (4-5) that are of any use at all. I would like to see a buff to some of those other sets (or a complete rework) that bring the 7-9 trait sets up to the same level as dungeon drop sets, and 4-6 trait sets on par with overland drop sets. This small change would make crafting sets much more viable.

katanagirl1

Think what you will, but I did used to craft items for guildies for free if they provided mats. I’m also heavily into housing furnishing and am often short on mats.

What I found is when people say they “have the mats” it means they have 70% of the ingots, cloth, or wood and exactly none of the style mats or improvement mats. I got tired of using my own few purple improvement mats and losing a lot of time and money to replace them.

You make a lot of assumptions.

Oliviander

OP I think you are wrong in your assumptions.

I don't think a crafting system that gives you an income
by player demands is even possible.

1. there will always be enough crafters to craft anything for free.
2. Most longterm players will have their own crafter (even if it would take much more dedication than now)
3. Only short term players who don't have buddies might be in any demand
but they usually won't have the money to pay a significant price above mats

Maybe if there were some BIS items that only very few crafters could actually craft.
But then this would only be possible if you could'nt work to that goal,
but only achieve it with very much luck.
(Something like very rare recipe drops and I guess it should be at least ten times rarer
than "Aetheric Cipher" to have such an impact.)
But then who wants such a system where few players by sheer luck get rich ?

In the moment even the rarest furnishing recipes that cost millions of gold
won't provide any significant income beacuse most people will just omit them
if they are too high priced.

Another way might be, if crafting would take a significant time of gameplay
to craft an item - but even then you might not get a significant income - looking
at the prices of some mats wich are actively farmed for sale.

So I guess Craftable ingame items will never be significant more worth than their mats
as long as they aren't BIS and very very rare.
And that would be a system I (and I guess most players) wouldn't want.

VoxAdActa

Oliviander wrote: »

OP I think you are wrong in your assumptions.

I don't think a crafting system that gives you an income
by player demands is even possible.

Every other MMO I've ever played has had a crafting economy driven by player demand.

In those games, crafted stuff was better than--or at least competitive with--dropped equipment. It was also a way to ensure you got exactly the equipment you wanted; you could spend a lot of gold for someone to make it for you rather than a lot of time praying for it to drop.

ESO is the very first MMO I've ever played where crafters are expected to give their talents away for free. Hell, why bother taking the time and spending the skill points to make a crafter, when anything I'd want is free? In other games, you put time and skill into crafting because it was an income source. In ESO, it's just barely a personal convenience.

Oliviander

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Every other MMO I've ever played has had a crafting economy driven by player demand.

In those games, crafted stuff was better than--or at least competitive with--dropped equipment. It was also a way to ensure you got exactly the equipment you wanted; you could spend a lot of gold for someone to make it for you rather than a lot of time praying for it to drop.

As I am not really acquainted with other MMO's
I would be interested which mechanism prevented players to craft their own items
in those games ?

katanagirl1

I don’t think crafters are expected to give away stuff for free, I did it because I did not mind at all to help out my guildies if they provided all of the materials. It only took some of my time. I would rather do than use my mats and charge gold. Other master crafters offer their services, usually with player provided mats and a per item fee. I see them advertising in zone chat everywhere.

That’s what I mean when I say I don’t do crafting to make money. I’d rather spend the bulk of my time playing the game.

A lot of players just don’t understand the time and gold involved in getting to the master crafter level, or don’t bother doing their research to make sure they have adequate materials when they ask for items.

Eifleber

Of course the crafting system in ESO is very weird.

One would expect that gear would be made by craftsmen and -women. Because that is how it works in a medieval/fantasy world. Special bonusses and effects would be accomplished by adding special ingredients that are only available in dangeous places. It's how most MMOs work, although crafting is often limited to your own stuff (bound on pickup). But not always.

ESO however doesn't know this system except for levellig gear and perhaps 0.1% of the players that still prefer Hundings, Julianos or whtever. Almost all the gear is BoP dungeon/trial/arena hear. Looks mostly are done in the outfitter, hardly anything you see in game is actually there (an exception being Olorime wings). Which all greatly diminishes the use and value of 'crafting'. The only way crafting comes into the picture is when you transmute gear to get the desired trait. And the occasional master writ.

For consumables there is a player driven market however. Potions and food/drinks are well in demand.
.

Foefaller

Oliviander wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Every other MMO I've ever played has had a crafting economy driven by player demand.

In those games, crafted stuff was better than--or at least competitive with--dropped equipment. It was also a way to ensure you got exactly the equipment you wanted; you could spend a lot of gold for someone to make it for you rather than a lot of time praying for it to drop.

As I am not really acquainted with other MMO's
I would be interested which mechanism prevented players to craft their own items
in those games ?

At the very least, it takes the following:

1. Having ingredients required from other professions. To make the final item of X disipline, they would need something that could only be made/harvested by Y disipline (like, for example, armor made by blacksmithing needing padding made by tailoring.)

2. A hard or soft cap to how many crafting disiplines a single player (not character, *player*) can do themselves. EVE does this by time; technically you could reach the point where you have the skills to make everything, but the skill system of the game means literal *years* of real time before that happens. Sometimes the crafting is done because you(re character(s)) own a series of buisnesses or land, and there is a hard limit to how many things you can have going on to build X. Obviously, most go for a per-character limit which is only an obstacle if same-sever alts are forbidden (as was the case in the now-defunct Star Wars: Empire Divided MMO) or there aren't enough character slots to cover all disciplines.

Combine the two, and you get a system that encourages/forces players who wish to get involved with crafting to either go "tall," being self-sufficient in a few things and rely on player market/other sources for the rest, or "wide," and focused on just one or more steps in several things, selling off the refined part or finished good and using their profits to buy the stuff they actually plan to keep.

On top of that, you'll likely see one or more of the following:

-Heavily involved crafting/gathering process. Even with items that a single player can make from begining to end, the effort or time for just one item might be used to encourage them to go with focusing on only a few steps for ease of use. GW2, which doesn't see a lot of final goods buying/selling (not counting skins) but does have a lot of refined parts and raw materials getting bought and sold, kinda does this with ascended and legendary gear; do you want to do the hours of mindless farming it would take to get the mats for them, or just buy said items (or the most complete version that can be sold) and skip all that?

- Perma-destruction. Everything eventually becomes unusable, either from wear and tear or a rougelite mechanic (The #1 rule of EVE: never leave the hangar with anything you can't afford to lose) requiring players to eventually re-purchase even non-consumable items and gear.

-Crafting Competes with Adventuring. ESO does a light version of this, but many MMOs that want a player economy usually make crafting skills compete with adventuring skills for whatever resource that is used to advance them. EVE does this (on top of everything else I've listed), as time spent learning how to build the awesome ships and weapons takes away from time spent learning how to actually fly them.

There are probably a few more common trends I see, but those are the big ones.

FlopsyPrince

The money from just doing the daily crafting quests on several characters is reasonably good, if you can stomach all the delays for logging and such.

I never sell my mats, but I made quite a bit when I did that.

Now I just do them sometimes. I would probably do it more if swapping between characters was not so slow.

VoxAdActa

Oliviander wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Every other MMO I've ever played has had a crafting economy driven by player demand.

In those games, crafted stuff was better than--or at least competitive with--dropped equipment. It was also a way to ensure you got exactly the equipment you wanted; you could spend a lot of gold for someone to make it for you rather than a lot of time praying for it to drop.

As I am not really acquainted with other MMO's
I would be interested which mechanism prevented players to craft their own items
in those games ?

Time. The time investment was such that you could do all the trade skills, but you'd never adventure. Some MMOs actually encourage that by having crafting activities give leveling experience, but not all of them.

Rather that a skill point system, some have a "learn as you do" system; the more swords you make, the better you get at making swords. It's just another version of the time investment.

Everyone being technically able to do everything isn't the problem in ESO, though. The problem is, somewhere along the line, everyone got the idea that their guild should have a couple of doormats who will make everyone 9-trait armor for a pittance. Someone invested a VERY long time to research all those traits, and a LOT of skill points to make it possible to craft in gold at CP160, and none of that is actually worth any return because there seem to be a lot of people who are easily bullied into believing that the time they spent on the game is worth less in GP than if they just went out and slaughtered bandits overland for 4gp each.

Compounding that is the "bind on equip" mechanic. If there was a way you could hand your nice set of dungeon armor over to a crafter to have it modified (improved quality, different style appearance, new glyphs, whatever), that would be a service worth paying for. Even with the outfit system, someone might pay good money to have a dedicated crafter "outfit" their armor in a rare style they don't want to grind for. But all that's impossible.

Combine "only you can maintain your equipment" mechanics with "choosing beggar" social mechanics and you get a system where crafting (non-consumables) is considered only worthy of a negligible "tip" at best. Everyone learns to craft so they can gold and glyph and style their own gear (since it's the only way to do it), and when everyone's got points in it, there's always going to be a significant percentage of people out there who are utter pushovers and tear the floor out from under the price.

What those other MMOs ACTUALLY have going for them isn't a system that physically prevents someone from learning all the crafts, but a system where it's NOT NECESSARY for every character to learn some degree of crafting just to keep their gear in order. The only people who craft are the people who consider themselves to be Crafters, and they are more likely to value their time and their skillset, and therefore have standards for what they will and will not do for free (or for cost of materials, or for a "tip").

It's different for consumables; people are more willing to invest time and skill points into a skill when the things they make/improve/outfit from it are going to be on their character forever and ever. When you have a skill whose fruits have to be constantly depleted, requiring multiple trips to the guild store or shouting in zone chat to find the materials and more grinding and searching to pick up the recipes, fewer people are going to go through that trouble. They'll just buy the stuff from people who have already done it, and since fewer people have done it, there is a smaller number of "Oh, sure, guildy, I'll stop what I'm doing to make make you some Psyjic, just give me the roe, please love me" people. Your guild can't be sure to get one. Thus, provisioning and alchemy products actually make the crafter some money.

katanagirl1

You know, I really don’t understand why more people don’t max out their crafting skills. I don’t think the percentage of crafters in my guilds is that high, except for the housing guild for obvious reasons.

I am not good enough dps-wise to ever get into a trials guild. I just can’t get my rotation fast enough. That is an actual limit that I cannot physically do, no matter how hard I try.

I just invest my time into researching traits and farming motif pages to learn styles, and sell duplicates to buy the ones I don’t get from drops. What’s preventing other people from doing that? Everyone can be a crafter but most people don’t want to bother.

Skill points, you say? My lousy dps PvE toon got all of them, even in Cyrodiil.

So I have to credit the game for making that possible for me. As you can see, I’m nothing special.

Oliviander

Thx all for these interesting answers,
maybe I had to less imagination and
a rewarding crafting system based on player demands
can be done.

I for myself have 18 crafters in ESO1just because of the rewarding writs.
(all are lv 50 and all will be maxed out traitwise by the end of June and with more than 100 skillpoints in crafting,
and most of them even knowing at least 25 motives)