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PVE Difficulty - or lack thereof
Woodenplank
✭✭✭✭
I've been playing ESO since the beta came out almost six years ago, and have generally enjoyed it (hence my continued playing), but since One Tamriel came out along with the Champion Point system so much of the game lacks any real challenge. And, I'm sorry to say, most the quests aren't exactly riveting, and their story telling doesn't quite make up for the lack of interesting gameplay.
PVE Difficulty
Since One Tamriel and the introduction of the Champion Point system much of the game has been steadily getting easier. In fact, so much so that outside of the newest DLC most of the game is a breeze to CP 700+ players. Several veteran dungeons can actually be solo'ed, and a lot of bosses don't really get to play through their mechanics, because they die too fast.
An extreme example is a guild actually killing Rakkhat, the final boss in the Trial Maw of Lorkhaj, "by the third platform" that is to say; skipping about 80% of the fight's mechanics because their DPS was so high. I realize this is a very extreme case of a top 1% (or 0.1%) of players, but I think it's such a shame that any boss can be reduced to a DPS check. Because I think ZOS has generally been very good at designing encounters, the Twins and Rakkhat himself from Maw of Lorkhaj being fine examples of inventive Boss Fights. Even as far back as the Imperial City we saw ingenious and complex encounters such as Ibomez the Flesh Scuptor and Lord Warden Dusk, and the following DLCs have typically had well designed bosses as well (sure, there are always a few "slip ups" but overall I'm very positive).
The issue is that, although the CP cap is "frozen" at 810 now, it has still grown absurdly since One Tamriel (we started at 160), and while this is accounted for in each newly released DLC, the older ones (such as Imperial City) fall behind; so that Lord Warden Dusk, who has complicated and entertaining fight mechanics, is dead before he gets through all his voice lines.
And the base game is even more troubled by this. Most Veteran Dungeons don't require any sort of veterancy, and groups will typically not even bring a healer, opting instead for a third Damage-Dealer so you can skip through mechanics even faster. As a high level player, unless you're playing a DLC dungeons feel like a game set to novice-difficulty.
And "solo PVE" experiences are even worse in this regard.
I recently did the Dragonhold questline which, while entertaining in story/characters/dialogue (see below), offered pretty much nill in gameplay. For the "arena fight" I just used my Biting Jabs skill litterally 20 times, and I got through all 3 rounds of gladiator fighting. Killing a dragon? 8 seconds worth of jabbing and done, with virtually no damage taken.
And it's the same way for virtually any quest, and virtually any delve.
Public Dungeons; actually a pretty cool concept. But while Champion points have constantly risen since, public dungeons and their bosses have remained virtually unchanged. Nowadays a high-cp player can run in alone, fart in the general direction of the "group event" boss, get the skill point, and be out in two-minutes flat.
Molag Bal's Dark Anchors aren't spared either. I'm sure a lot of players remember when Dark Anchor arrivals were announced in zone chat, and people stood around and waited for other players to show up, because it was no small task taking one down. You go to Alik'r nowdays, a 30 foot Dread Flesh Colossus will die before it even hits the ground.
A suggestion
One Tamriel did a lot of good for the game; the ability to play with friends regardless of quest choices, alliances, and individual levels is great. The issue is that the CP scaling simply makes most content too easy. One Tamriel let me play alongside low level friends, who were new to the game. But because I was near the CP cap, the gameplay wasn't enjoyable for neither of us, because everything died in seconds even if I just spammed light attacks; high level characters are simply too strong for 90% of content, even with scaling.
Which is why I think we need a serious CP downscaling, or even a complete redesign. Sure, you would of course scale down the DLC dungeons/trials, which would otherwise become impossible, but I think it's a tragedy that all the game's quests are reduced to dialogue with absolutely no gameplay challenge. And "veteran" dungeons are mostly a breeze for higher level players.
The issue here is, that if people suddenly lost the ability to farm veteran dungeons at 5 mins per run, they would probably flood the forums with complaints. But I think the game definitely needs the shakeup - call it 'tough love', if you will.
I talked with a newer player a few weeks ago. And, while they enjoyed the gameplay of PVP, they were somewhat disappointed at how easily and readily available everything was. Want two full sets of epic gear, that'll pretty much last you into the veteran trials? Buy Mother's Sorrow off Guild Traders and have someone craft New Moon Acolyte for you. You're set.
The best sets are somewhat harder to get of course, but even a relatively poor player like me (I never manage more than 60k DPS) got a full set of Perfected False God after just three runs of Sunspire, running with a Guild. And I'm all geared up (at least until next DLC comes out...).
The game has no "wow, how'd you get that?" items. Sure, a Lokkestiz Dagger is "hard" to get, because it's based on random chance, but if someone has a full set of Perfected Lokkestiz + Relequen they're not really anything special. Thousands of people have farmed those sets in just a handful of trial runs.
And I think it's sad; because the Elder Scrolls have so many unique, legendary items to draw from and tonnes of way you could implement them... See "Items, sets, and farming" for more discussion on this.
Exploration, quests, and world design
The Elder Scrolls probably have one of the most dedicated and enthusiastic fan bases of any video game franchise. Just look at all the community has created in mods for Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO, and internet discussion (or look at how much I write, just to complain). Why not use that? You could hold a "quest design competition" - ZOS wouldn't even need to invest a lot; just set up a few ground rules, and read through the top-voted suggestions by the community. I'm sure you wouldn't even need cash prizes or the like; most people would be honored to simply have something they invented put into the game.
Food for thought.
P.s. This is part of a larger post I made on several issues in the game, and my (hubris heavy) suggestions for solutions. That thread became quite large and "ranting", so I've broken it up into bits, and put them in more appropiate forums.
Edited by Woodenplank on 23 January 2020 16:44 PVE Difficulty
An extreme example is a guild actually killing Rakkhat, the final boss in the Trial Maw of Lorkhaj, "by the third platform" that is to say; skipping about 80% of the fight's mechanics because their DPS was so high. I realize this is a very extreme case of a top 1% (or 0.1%) of players, but I think it's such a shame that any boss can be reduced to a DPS check. Because I think ZOS has generally been very good at designing encounters, the Twins and Rakkhat himself from Maw of Lorkhaj being fine examples of inventive Boss Fights. Even as far back as the Imperial City we saw ingenious and complex encounters such as Ibomez the Flesh Scuptor and Lord Warden Dusk, and the following DLCs have typically had well designed bosses as well (sure, there are always a few "slip ups" but overall I'm very positive).
The issue is that, although the CP cap is "frozen" at 810 now, it has still grown absurdly since One Tamriel (we started at 160), and while this is accounted for in each newly released DLC, the older ones (such as Imperial City) fall behind; so that Lord Warden Dusk, who has complicated and entertaining fight mechanics, is dead before he gets through all his voice lines.
And the base game is even more troubled by this. Most Veteran Dungeons don't require any sort of veterancy, and groups will typically not even bring a healer, opting instead for a third Damage-Dealer so you can skip through mechanics even faster. As a high level player, unless you're playing a DLC dungeons feel like a game set to novice-difficulty.
And "solo PVE" experiences are even worse in this regard.
I recently did the Dragonhold questline which, while entertaining in story/characters/dialogue (see below), offered pretty much nill in gameplay. For the "arena fight" I just used my Biting Jabs skill litterally 20 times, and I got through all 3 rounds of gladiator fighting. Killing a dragon? 8 seconds worth of jabbing and done, with virtually no damage taken.
And it's the same way for virtually any quest, and virtually any delve.
Public Dungeons; actually a pretty cool concept. But while Champion points have constantly risen since, public dungeons and their bosses have remained virtually unchanged. Nowadays a high-cp player can run in alone, fart in the general direction of the "group event" boss, get the skill point, and be out in two-minutes flat.
Molag Bal's Dark Anchors aren't spared either. I'm sure a lot of players remember when Dark Anchor arrivals were announced in zone chat, and people stood around and waited for other players to show up, because it was no small task taking one down. You go to Alik'r nowdays, a 30 foot Dread Flesh Colossus will die before it even hits the ground.
A suggestion
Which is why I think we need a serious CP downscaling, or even a complete redesign. Sure, you would of course scale down the DLC dungeons/trials, which would otherwise become impossible, but I think it's a tragedy that all the game's quests are reduced to dialogue with absolutely no gameplay challenge. And "veteran" dungeons are mostly a breeze for higher level players.
The issue here is, that if people suddenly lost the ability to farm veteran dungeons at 5 mins per run, they would probably flood the forums with complaints. But I think the game definitely needs the shakeup - call it 'tough love', if you will.
I talked with a newer player a few weeks ago. And, while they enjoyed the gameplay of PVP, they were somewhat disappointed at how easily and readily available everything was. Want two full sets of epic gear, that'll pretty much last you into the veteran trials? Buy Mother's Sorrow off Guild Traders and have someone craft New Moon Acolyte for you. You're set.
The best sets are somewhat harder to get of course, but even a relatively poor player like me (I never manage more than 60k DPS) got a full set of Perfected False God after just three runs of Sunspire, running with a Guild. And I'm all geared up (at least until next DLC comes out...).
The game has no "wow, how'd you get that?" items. Sure, a Lokkestiz Dagger is "hard" to get, because it's based on random chance, but if someone has a full set of Perfected Lokkestiz + Relequen they're not really anything special. Thousands of people have farmed those sets in just a handful of trial runs.
And I think it's sad; because the Elder Scrolls have so many unique, legendary items to draw from and tonnes of way you could implement them... See "Items, sets, and farming" for more discussion on this.
Exploration, quests, and world design
I am sick and tired of seeing Alits all over the place. They were fun and different when we first saw them in Morrowind (TES 3 that is). But now we find that these creatures, who were indigenous to volcanic wastelands, are apparently indigenous to pretty much anywhere. Blackmarsh; okay, it shares a border with Morrowind, some might have wandered south, but the jungles of Valenwood? On the other side of the continent? So wildly different from Stonefalls? Or Khenarthi's Roost; an isolated island by the southwest tip of the continent, about as far from Vvardenfell as you can get? Sure! got wild alits en masse. Northern Elsweyr? Sure, it's just a new Chapter zone, people won't expect new, different, interesting creatures.
And they also put welvas on Summerset, and the legendary Wamasu lizards of Blackmarsh in the deserts of upper Craglorn, and stuck a few in Valenwood jungles for good measure.
Speaking of Valenwood, you know they have wooly mammoths there? Exact copies of the ones in Skyrim? Why not copy-paste the model; skin it white/grey with wrinky skin and call it elephant instead, and you're done! Animal diversity right there. No need to use the same creatures over and over and over again for every zone.
Another gross offender is "trolls" - which appear not only in most of the base game, but also got put into several DLC. Sometimes it's okay; putting them in Wrothgarr was cool, because it neighbours Skyrim, and its homeland of the orcs and goblin-ken and all. But Southern Elsweyr and Vvardenfell? Why? And those zones actually have fairly interesting biomes (giant armadillos and wierd terror birds; shroom beetles and fetcherflies, nix'thingies, etc) - but ZOS couldn't resist throwing a few trolls in there as well... Because who wouldn't want Elsweyr and Morrowind to remind them of Skyrim and Cyrodiil... ?
And when new, interesting creatures and species are introduced (such as Haj-mota) they invariably get reused; often halfway across the continent.
And if this was only an issue among overland creatures I might forgive it, but it pervades Dungeons as well. How many times have you fought a Bone Colossus (big flaming skeleton thing) as a boss? Many Ebonheart Pact players first saw one as Baldreth in Stonefalls, but they pop up everywhere; as a boss in Vaults of Madness, or twice over in Crypt of Hearts (Death's Leviathan in I, and Llambris Amalgam in II); How often have you fought a Harvester with the same old mechanics? Or a Lich using the same set of spells - Crypt of Hearts I, Vaults of Madness, Wayrest Sewers II, Fang Lair are just some of the places with Lich Bosses. They're everywhere.
In fact a lot of "villains" and daedric enemies just cycle through the same handful of characters. I don't want to be all negative; so I'll say that the Daedric Titan is easily one of my favourite monster models in any video game. They're big, scary, and draconic without simply being dragons. But like so many other otherwisely awesome creatures, you get tired of them when they're made delve bosses, dungeon bosses, main quest bosses, dolmen bosses, and so on and so on. The first time I saw a daedric titan I was staggered by how awesome they looked, swooping in from the skies. Now it's a yawn.
Speaking of daedra, it seems the Princes have some sort of diversity hire plan going on, because they keep needlessly sharing minions. Golden Saints, which were always associated with Sheogorath and the Shivering Isle, apparently also serve Meridia along the Aurorans (I assume some developer pointed out they both wear golden armor, and thus must both serve Meridia). Likewise Dark Seducers - again, homed in the Shivering Isle - also serve Molag Bal, because his army wears black. In one of the Anchor fights, Molag Bal will explain that "most dremora serve Dagon", but Bal clearly shows his dremora-based army for the rest of the game. And he isn't afraid of using a few Bone Colossi or Liches either... And it's not that ZOS are incapable of creating unique daedra - just think of Shrikes and those creepy raven monsters from the Evergloam - but they usually don't.
In a nutshell (and I promise this will be the meanest comment I make); it seems that to ZOS taking an Elder Scrolls game across the entire continent, opening up all of Tamriel for us to explore became not an opportunity to let their imagination loose and freely create, but rather an excercise in how much copy-paste they could get away with.
I'm not saying the game is devoid of entertaining PVE experiences - As mentioned I was very much entertained with Za'ji and Caska from Dragonhold, and while the Psijic skill line was a slog, it was somewhat alleviated by the Augur of the Obscure (Thank you again, Ben Driskin, and whoever wrote the lines). I also enjoyed the Clockwork City - mostly because of the conversation with Sotha Sil towards the end, which was amazing (lorewise and all that stuff).
In fact, the main quest lines for each zone are often a good run, but, as mentioned, they offer no real difficulty (any "bosses" have irrelevant mechanics and die in about ten seconds). It's mostly that the zones are full of quest areas that... aren't exactly riveting. And so damnably often it follows the same formula, where as you approach an area an NPC runs up to you shouting a variation of: "Hold traveler! Speak to me before entering; I'm wounded, please help!; No, do not go this way. There's danger up ahead; Ahh, I've been waiting for someone to come by, etc. etc." And it gets rather annoying. In previous Elder Scrolls titles you might happen upon quests in town that would take you around. Or you'd go actively seeking work in guilds, taverns, etc. ESO tries to force a quest down your throat every time you pass by a bit of rubble.
Even in Coldharbour, which is pretty much the pinnacle of the base game (story wise), we're following the same old routines. An alien, daedric plane to explore, and instead of originality we're treated to another trying-too-hard-to-be-funny bout of Lady Clarissa Laurent and her manservant, or helping the Vanos siblings explore another ayleid ruin - pretty much exactly what we did back in Tamriel, but just truncated to a gloomier setting.
And it annoys me because Coldharbour has so much potential. Look at what TES community members, such as Vicn of Nexusmods did with the concept. A Skyrim modder created a more intriguing, exciting and full version of Coldharbour by themselves as a Skyrim mod than ZOS' whole team did in ESO (okay, that was a mean comment as well. Sorry; but seriously, if you play Skyrim check out the mod here; it's staggeringly huge, complex, and captivating).
But ESO offers little of what Coldharbour could've been; take for instance the story of the Daedric Titans. They were created after Molag Bal lured a dragon, Boziikkodstrun, to Coldharbour; tore his soul out, and used the skeleton to create a daedric titan. Why not have a quest where we help Boziikkodstrun's soul escape to Aetherius/Akatosh? You could even make it a quest line where you collect his fragmented soul from various locations - maybe this is hubris, but I think it would make for a more compelling story than helping Stibbons escape a lewd Winged Twilight.
In fact, I think the game could do with fewer quests; but just make individual quests longer chains and award more experience, perhaps with a few worthwhile items put in. Because right now the most efficient way to level is the mind-bogglingly boring Dolmen farming in Alik'r; it'd be nice to have an MMO which actually awarded playing through all these quests and stories.
And they also put welvas on Summerset, and the legendary Wamasu lizards of Blackmarsh in the deserts of upper Craglorn, and stuck a few in Valenwood jungles for good measure.
Speaking of Valenwood, you know they have wooly mammoths there? Exact copies of the ones in Skyrim? Why not copy-paste the model; skin it white/grey with wrinky skin and call it elephant instead, and you're done! Animal diversity right there. No need to use the same creatures over and over and over again for every zone.
Another gross offender is "trolls" - which appear not only in most of the base game, but also got put into several DLC. Sometimes it's okay; putting them in Wrothgarr was cool, because it neighbours Skyrim, and its homeland of the orcs and goblin-ken and all. But Southern Elsweyr and Vvardenfell? Why? And those zones actually have fairly interesting biomes (giant armadillos and wierd terror birds; shroom beetles and fetcherflies, nix'thingies, etc) - but ZOS couldn't resist throwing a few trolls in there as well... Because who wouldn't want Elsweyr and Morrowind to remind them of Skyrim and Cyrodiil... ?
And when new, interesting creatures and species are introduced (such as Haj-mota) they invariably get reused; often halfway across the continent.
And if this was only an issue among overland creatures I might forgive it, but it pervades Dungeons as well. How many times have you fought a Bone Colossus (big flaming skeleton thing) as a boss? Many Ebonheart Pact players first saw one as Baldreth in Stonefalls, but they pop up everywhere; as a boss in Vaults of Madness, or twice over in Crypt of Hearts (Death's Leviathan in I, and Llambris Amalgam in II); How often have you fought a Harvester with the same old mechanics? Or a Lich using the same set of spells - Crypt of Hearts I, Vaults of Madness, Wayrest Sewers II, Fang Lair are just some of the places with Lich Bosses. They're everywhere.
In fact a lot of "villains" and daedric enemies just cycle through the same handful of characters. I don't want to be all negative; so I'll say that the Daedric Titan is easily one of my favourite monster models in any video game. They're big, scary, and draconic without simply being dragons. But like so many other otherwisely awesome creatures, you get tired of them when they're made delve bosses, dungeon bosses, main quest bosses, dolmen bosses, and so on and so on. The first time I saw a daedric titan I was staggered by how awesome they looked, swooping in from the skies. Now it's a yawn.
Speaking of daedra, it seems the Princes have some sort of diversity hire plan going on, because they keep needlessly sharing minions. Golden Saints, which were always associated with Sheogorath and the Shivering Isle, apparently also serve Meridia along the Aurorans (I assume some developer pointed out they both wear golden armor, and thus must both serve Meridia). Likewise Dark Seducers - again, homed in the Shivering Isle - also serve Molag Bal, because his army wears black. In one of the Anchor fights, Molag Bal will explain that "most dremora serve Dagon", but Bal clearly shows his dremora-based army for the rest of the game. And he isn't afraid of using a few Bone Colossi or Liches either... And it's not that ZOS are incapable of creating unique daedra - just think of Shrikes and those creepy raven monsters from the Evergloam - but they usually don't.
In a nutshell (and I promise this will be the meanest comment I make); it seems that to ZOS taking an Elder Scrolls game across the entire continent, opening up all of Tamriel for us to explore became not an opportunity to let their imagination loose and freely create, but rather an excercise in how much copy-paste they could get away with.
I'm not saying the game is devoid of entertaining PVE experiences - As mentioned I was very much entertained with Za'ji and Caska from Dragonhold, and while the Psijic skill line was a slog, it was somewhat alleviated by the Augur of the Obscure (Thank you again, Ben Driskin, and whoever wrote the lines). I also enjoyed the Clockwork City - mostly because of the conversation with Sotha Sil towards the end, which was amazing (lorewise and all that stuff).
In fact, the main quest lines for each zone are often a good run, but, as mentioned, they offer no real difficulty (any "bosses" have irrelevant mechanics and die in about ten seconds). It's mostly that the zones are full of quest areas that... aren't exactly riveting. And so damnably often it follows the same formula, where as you approach an area an NPC runs up to you shouting a variation of: "Hold traveler! Speak to me before entering; I'm wounded, please help!; No, do not go this way. There's danger up ahead; Ahh, I've been waiting for someone to come by, etc. etc." And it gets rather annoying. In previous Elder Scrolls titles you might happen upon quests in town that would take you around. Or you'd go actively seeking work in guilds, taverns, etc. ESO tries to force a quest down your throat every time you pass by a bit of rubble.
Even in Coldharbour, which is pretty much the pinnacle of the base game (story wise), we're following the same old routines. An alien, daedric plane to explore, and instead of originality we're treated to another trying-too-hard-to-be-funny bout of Lady Clarissa Laurent and her manservant, or helping the Vanos siblings explore another ayleid ruin - pretty much exactly what we did back in Tamriel, but just truncated to a gloomier setting.
And it annoys me because Coldharbour has so much potential. Look at what TES community members, such as Vicn of Nexusmods did with the concept. A Skyrim modder created a more intriguing, exciting and full version of Coldharbour by themselves as a Skyrim mod than ZOS' whole team did in ESO (okay, that was a mean comment as well. Sorry; but seriously, if you play Skyrim check out the mod here; it's staggeringly huge, complex, and captivating).
But ESO offers little of what Coldharbour could've been; take for instance the story of the Daedric Titans. They were created after Molag Bal lured a dragon, Boziikkodstrun, to Coldharbour; tore his soul out, and used the skeleton to create a daedric titan. Why not have a quest where we help Boziikkodstrun's soul escape to Aetherius/Akatosh? You could even make it a quest line where you collect his fragmented soul from various locations - maybe this is hubris, but I think it would make for a more compelling story than helping Stibbons escape a lewd Winged Twilight.
In fact, I think the game could do with fewer quests; but just make individual quests longer chains and award more experience, perhaps with a few worthwhile items put in. Because right now the most efficient way to level is the mind-bogglingly boring Dolmen farming in Alik'r; it'd be nice to have an MMO which actually awarded playing through all these quests and stories.
The Elder Scrolls probably have one of the most dedicated and enthusiastic fan bases of any video game franchise. Just look at all the community has created in mods for Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO, and internet discussion (or look at how much I write, just to complain). Why not use that? You could hold a "quest design competition" - ZOS wouldn't even need to invest a lot; just set up a few ground rules, and read through the top-voted suggestions by the community. I'm sure you wouldn't even need cash prizes or the like; most people would be honored to simply have something they invented put into the game.
Food for thought.
P.s. This is part of a larger post I made on several issues in the game, and my (hubris heavy) suggestions for solutions. That thread became quite large and "ranting", so I've broken it up into bits, and put them in more appropiate forums.
I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
3
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SenRhinoXSoul ShrivenPlease don't because It'll make it harder for me as a new player to play and I don't want another The Division difficulty that I won't play again.1 -
Woodenplank✭✭✭✭I'm not suggesting making it harder for new players. I'm suggesting making it harder for max-level players.
Lowering CP-cap (and rescaling a few dungeons) would:
1. Make the game more challenging for players at level cap
2. Make level cap easier to reach for newer players.Edited by Woodenplank on 28 January 2020 12:23I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.1 -
fiender66✭✭✭✭This is an advice I gladly give to whoever complains of overland content being too easy: reset your CPs in a random way, go naked or with a trash set and use a non fitting weapon (e.g. a bow if you are mag or a stave if you are stam). Then start doing the overland bosses in sequence, starting from the easiest one (maybe Lumberscather or whatever its name near Daggerfall).
The public dungeons and trials could give some relaxing time between each boss. Enjoy0