the sad state of jewelry making

Vyvrhel

Everybody knows that making jewelry, while possible, is extremely expensive. Well to be exact the improving to higher quality is.
Truth to say I do not understand why. Can you please change it so improving jewelry costs about the same as improving other equipment? Just remove that dust and replace it with plating. ZOS. Thanks in advance.

Banana

Another couple years the mats might be cheaper

Taleof2Cities

I know that long time crafting forum-goers like @tmbrinks will be in soon ... and have a much better reply than I could ever put together.

It really boils down to a couple of issues though:

1. The scarcity of jewelry crafting materials is intentional by ZOS. Upgrading jewelry should not substitute for players running content for the jewelry they need.

2. Many players want instant gratification. They don't want to spend the time to improve their jewelry crafting ... and/or spend the time to get enough in-game gold to pay for the materials they can't generate themselves.

Hence, these kinds of posts which occur way too often in the forums.

Vyvrhel

Banana wrote: »

Another couple years the mats might be cheaper

Cannot since with the same drop rate you need way more of the mats.

Turelus

I mean part of me agrees things should be worked for, but the other part is still thinking the level of costs on the stuff is absurd at its current levels.

Vyvrhel

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

1. The scarcity of jewelry crafting materials is intentional by ZOS. Upgrading jewelry should not substitute for players running content for the jewelry they need.

No. There are two things mixed together. Improving dropped jewelry and improving crafted jewelry. If they wanted players to farm stuff, OK with me, easily done. Remove the low quality drops and keep just the violet stuff.

Radiance

Jewels... Expensive!?

Who knew!?

BeamsForDemacia

A) u run 3 times a week, several clears each evening = u get alot if Gold materials
b) u dont run that often ( 3 was just a random number its more About casual vs Progression) = u dont Need Gold jewel
i also run Purple jewelry often

Skwor

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I know that long time crafting forum-goers like @tmbrinks will be in soon ... and have a much better reply than I could ever put together.

It really boils down to a couple of issues though:

1. The scarcity of jewelry crafting materials is intentional by ZOS. Upgrading jewelry should not substitute for players running content for the jewelry they need.

2. Many players want instant gratification. They don't want to spend the time to improve their jewelry crafting ... and/or spend the time to get enough in-game gold to pay for the materials they can't generate themselves.

Hence, these kinds of posts which occur way too often in the forums.

Exactly. This is by design, the intent of jewelry crafting was never to replace the gold pieces obtained in trails. As such the cost will always stay aligned with the effort to obtain through combat. I would expect ZoS to actually decrease the mat availability should the cost come down much to be honest.

This was made clear in several conversations when the crafting skill was released, even to some extent before release this was addressed as a concern.

tmbrinks

The activities in the game that necessitates "upgraded" jewelry, provide you with the materials to upgrade that jewelry or otherwise obtain upgraded jewelry.

PVP, you can use the AP points that you get to buy items as they arrive at the golden vender. Or, if RNG isn't your style, you can use it to buy coffers at the towns to get jewelry to decon for parts.

End-game (Veteran) trials, regularly drop gold jewelry, many of which are among the best sets to run for all roles, and if your favorite set is overland, you can decon the gold jewelry for the improvement materials.

Dungeons (Veteran) drop purple jewelry from final bosses and in many chests, as well as a lot of "unique" drops from other bosses that you can deconstruct.

If you're not doing these types of activities, there really isn't a need for gold jewelry. If you'd like it, do something to earn it.

Do writs, something anybody can do. I get the equivalent of a chromium plating every 1-2 days from doing writs on my 18 characters, a zircon plating every 1-2 days as well. (Just counting 1 account here) I can upgrade a full set of jewelry in like 2 weeks of doing writs. (Not to mention the gold I get and could buy the platings even faster)

If you want to run normal dungeons and trials, and then upgrade the gear, you're going to have to do something extra to earn that upgraded jewelry.

On a secondary note, they have already reduced the "jewelry grind" by nearly 2/3rds since launch.

Reduced the platings needed from 2-3-4-8 to 1-2-3-4 for upgrades. (reduction of 1/2)

Added in guaranteed grain drops from max level jewelry crafting writs, along with possible double drops of grains, and rare drops of full platings. (reduction of approximately another 1/6th)

Is the system perfect? No. Is it a bit of a grind? Yes. But the "bit" of grind is by design, as to not cheapen veteran trials as others have said. (There's already issues with a lack of players running that content). I feel the changes they've made since launch have been fair, they've been considerate to players of all types to make it at least accessible.

(It is funny how the crafting forum gets a huge number of "nerf" threads about stuff, yet general is full of people whinging about how they are constantly "nerfing" their class... )

redlink1979

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

2. Many players want instant gratification. They don't want to spend the time to improve their jewelry crafting ... and/or spend the time to get enough in-game gold to pay for the materials they can't generate themselves.

This is the main "problem".

JanTanhide

Yep. Look at the Guild Traders. Legendary Jewelry crafting writs for 461 Vouchers sell for 20K or so. There are literally thousands of Legendary jewelry crafting writs for sale for next to nothing.

I never do them and try to give them away. No one ever takes them so I put them in guild banks only for the guild master to DESTROY.

Just not worth doing them at all.

Vyvrhel

Radiance wrote: »

Jewels... Expensive!?

Who knew!?

Man this is OT, but did you EVER check prices of quality (read useable) real swords or armor? Or bows?

Vyvrhel

BeamsForDemacia wrote: »

A) u run 3 times a week, several clears each evening = u get alot if Gold materials
b) u dont run that often ( 3 was just a random number its more About casual vs Progression) = u dont Need Gold jewel
i also run Purple jewelry often

Guys (because there are more people coming with this argument) you probably noticed we are in Crafting sections. And I am not talking Gold, but Purple stuff. Let me remind you that your Purple piece will cost about 50 - 70 k to craft. So please stop about raiding, farming dungeons etc., this is about jewelry for crafted sets. Something you make from the very beginning the improve.

If anyone is still concerned about people stopping the everlasting equipment grind - this I believe I addressed before. It is enough to remove green and blue drops from game and leave only purple or gold pieces with the same drop chances as before. Maybe make them unimprovable even. Or make the improvement of a piece what was not crafted more costly. Whatever.

Vyvrhel

redlink1979 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

2. Many players want instant gratification. They don't want to spend the time to improve their jewelry crafting ... and/or spend the time to get enough in-game gold to pay for the materials they can't generate themselves.

This is the main "problem".

I have jewelry crafting maxed, as all other craft skills. The price of the materials has nothing to do with it.

tmbrinks

Vyvrhel wrote: »

BeamsForDemacia wrote: »

A) u run 3 times a week, several clears each evening = u get alot if Gold materials
b) u dont run that often ( 3 was just a random number its more About casual vs Progression) = u dont Need Gold jewel
i also run Purple jewelry often

Guys (because there are more people coming with this argument) you probably noticed we are in Crafting sections. And I am not talking Gold, but Purple stuff. Let me remind you that your Purple piece will cost about 50 - 70 k to craft. So please stop about raiding, farming dungeons etc., this is about jewelry for crafted sets. Something you make from the very beginning the improve.

If anyone is still concerned about people stopping the everlasting equipment grind - this I believe I addressed before. It is enough to remove green and blue drops from game and leave only purple or gold pieces with the same drop chances as before. Maybe make them unimprovable even. Or make the improvement of a piece what was not crafted more costly. Whatever.

So... you want to craft. Do crafting activities to get the materials. Do your daily writs. Farm for materials and refine. The options are there.

I can sell 5-7 Zircon platings a WEEK (enough generally to fully upgrade 2 pieces of jewelry) from doing daily writs, collecting the surveys that drop and refining the materials, on my 18 characters doing writs.

50 - 70K is nothing. You can make 5K a day doing daily writs per character, just in gold, not even counting the other materials you can get from selling. It takes less than 3 minutes to do writs a day per character.

The options are there.

Unless you're doing veteran dungeons or trials (which will give you the gear) you don't even need purple to do it.

GimpyPorcupine

Just do 18 top-tier JC writs daily, and you'll get plenty of mats.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

I don't like the way jewelry crafting was implemented either but the cause of it being the way it is, is due to the way ESO implemented gear rewards. Unlike many other MMO's, ESO instanced content gear rewards are the same for all hardness levels with quality level being the differentiator. This created the problem of how to implement a crafting system that does not make the highest gear rewards in the game useless as an incentive to run harder content. In the original implementation ZOS accomplished this by making jewelry crafting completely useless. They listened to the player base and made changes that at least made it possible to upgrade ones own jewelry within their lifetime and more importantly for end game crafting created the Blue Master Writs which finally gave us casuals a decent way to earn vouchers. So in light of where jewelry crafting is today it could be worse and was.

Back to the real problem. I don't think ZOS will overhaul the gear rewards system to make each hardness level of instanced content have its own gear sets. One thing that could be done in the current structure though would be to increase the number of grains or plating and restrict the items that can be upgraded. There is no rational reason to not allow open world, public instances or crafted jewelry to be readily upgraded to gold quality. Trial rewards or harder group dungeon content on the other hand could be set so their jewelry cannot be upgraded thereby creating incentive for players to try harder levels for the exclusivity. My guess is that even a change like this would be considered a no go by ZOS.

katanagirl1

@tmbrinks is it reasonable to expect players to do daily crafting writs on 18 characters?

I hope not. That doesn’t give time to actually play the game.

I think sometimes those of you who are into batch processing your writs forget that.

Taleof2Cities

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

There is no rational reason to not allow open world, public instances or crafted jewelry to be readily upgraded to gold quality.

I disagree.

If you're not running the types of content that warrant min/max builds and gold-level jewelry, there's no need to have gold jewelry in the first place.

The content you described is not end game Trials, PvP raiding, vMA, etc.

Vyvrhel

tmbrinks wrote: »

So... you want to craft. Do crafting activities to get the materials. Do your daily writs. Farm for materials and refine. The options are there.

No. I do not want to craft and I never said it. What I said was that I have crafting skills maxed. So let me add that I am pretty bored with making daily writs, I did it before and it became a chore and this is not a fun for me. I do not play games to do chores. By the way the dailies is a good and possibly the only way how to give players any reason to craft. Since in all MMOs I ever played the cost of mats was always higher than the cost of the product.

What I say is that I believe that crafting jewelry and other wearables should be about equally expensive. I understand that you like the high prices as it is a source of income for you, and it is OK you like it this way, but this is your opinion based on your way how to make money, and otherwise it just does not make any sense.

Vyvrhel

Well to be exact I would like to craft if it was somehow interesting. Like a puzzlish minigame. Maybe something like the lockpicking or so. And the success in the minigame would modify the result, so if you did remarkably well you would end with something special. And vice versa. The way it is now, it is terribly boring.

tmbrinks

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@tmbrinks is it reasonable to expect players to do daily crafting writs on 18 characters?

I hope not. That doesn’t give time to actually play the game.

I think sometimes those of you who are into batch processing your writs forget that.

Just saying it's an option.

It's a choice. Everybody finds their niche of what they enjoy doing.

You don't like my suggestion find something else that works for you. But don't argue to change everything, because you don't like the answer I gave.

tmbrinks

Vyvrhel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

So... you want to craft. Do crafting activities to get the materials. Do your daily writs. Farm for materials and refine. The options are there.

No. I do not want to craft and I never said it. What I said was that I have crafting skills maxed. So let me add that I am pretty bored with making daily writs, I did it before and it became a chore and this is not a fun for me. I do not play games to do chores. By the way the dailies is a good and possibly the only way how to give players any reason to craft. Since in all MMOs I ever played the cost of mats was always higher than the cost of the product.

What I say is that I believe that crafting jewelry and other wearables should be about equally expensive. I understand that you like the high prices as it is a source of income for you, and it is OK you like it this way, but this is your opinion based on your way how to make money, and otherwise it just does not make any sense.

You are presenting an argument based on a false equivalency. Jewelry Cost = Gear Cost.

Jewelry has always been more unique in the game, gold jewelry used to only be obtainable by completing the hardest content in the game. It was "special" because of that. ZoS has EXPLICITLY stated, they wanted to keep it special, so they purposefully designed jewelry upgrading to be more expensive, require more materials, etc...

Then, they catered to the lowest common denominator and reduced the cost by first half, by reducing the number of plating, then by another 10-15% by adding in grain drops from writs.

You wonder why people argue "slippery slope"... It's because of this. ZoS gives in an inch, and everybody demands another inch, then another, then another..

Vyvrhel

tmbrinks wrote: »

You are presenting an argument based on a false equivalency. Jewelry Cost = Gear Cost.

No, your logic is faulty. I am making a statement which is the same as yours: Jewelry Cost != Gear Cost. You say this is good.
I say this is bad.

Now why do I believe it is bad:

Simply put, GRIND.

As you know, grind in MMOS is defined as a boring repetitive activity (repetitive dungeon or trial runs, or dailies) in order to obtain something, like a special piece of equipment. Most MMOs implement some form of a grind simply because they want to keep the player base occupied.
As it is, once a player FINALLY completes the grind spiral and gets the desired end game equipment, he mostly loses interest in the game, since he is burned out and tired and he realizes he got in fact nothing.

I KNOW I can get all that top jewelry I want provided I grind hard and long enough. It is accessible. But is it the right way to do? No. What I really want to do is to experiment with different equipment and combinations, and play and have fun. I know that the grind spiral will kill my interest in the game eventually, as it happened before in other games, and not only to me.

So my proposal is: make obtaining of the equipment moderately difficult, i.e. the PURPLE jewelry should cost about the same as other purple - and I say PURPLE - stuff.

tmbrinks

Vyvrhel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

You are presenting an argument based on a false equivalency. Jewelry Cost = Gear Cost.

No, your logic is faulty. I am making a statement which is the same as yours: Jewelry Cost != Gear Cost. You say this is good.
I say this is bad.

Now why do I believe it is bad:

Simply put, GRIND.

As you know, grind in MMOS is defined as a boring repetitive activity (repetitive dungeon or trial runs, or dailies) in order to obtain something, like a special piece of equipment. Most MMOs implement some form of a grind simply because they want to keep the player base occupied.
As it is, once a player FINALLY completes the grind spiral and gets the desired end game equipment, he mostly loses interest in the game, since he is burned out and tired and he realizes he got in fact nothing.

I KNOW I can get all that top jewelry I want provided I grind hard and long enough. It is accessible. But is it the right way to do? No. What I really want to do is to experiment with different equipment and combinations, and play and have fun. I know that the grind spiral will kill my interest in the game eventually, as it happened before in other games, and not only to me.

So my proposal is: make obtaining of the equipment moderately difficult, i.e. the PURPLE jewelry should cost about the same as other purple - and I say PURPLE - stuff.

Use the PTS to test possibilities, if you're so inclined.

Also, thanks for not even acknowledging the rest of my argument, where I actually explain WHY it is that way. Also for your gross generalizations of everybody.

But no, I fundamentally disagree that jewelry should cost the same as gear. Something should be allowed to be special. Unless you're doing 2 crafted sets, you can always do the dropped sets as jewelry, which are obtainable in-game.

Vyvrhel

tmbrinks wrote: »

Also, thanks for not even acknowledging the rest of my argument, where I actually explain WHY it is that way. Also for your gross generalizations of everybody.

But no, I fundamentally disagree that jewelry should cost the same as gear. Something should be allowed to be special. Unless you're doing 2 crafted sets, you can always do the dropped sets as jewelry, which are obtainable in-game.

Your argument is not an argument, but an explanation why is ZOS having it the current way. I understand the explanation, I just disagree that this is the best solution. Whatever I wrote here is my point of view and I am perfectly comfortable with the fact you have your own and it differs from mine. It is not that I dislike or hate you, I just disagree. I agree that there are people who can find the game grind actually comforting, and like it (as a simple, repetitive and successful activity), but whatever I propose should not force you into doing whatever you do not like. It might theoretically slightly limit your profits but surely there are other way how to profit, for example the golden materials.

As for PTS, I test there occasionally but now I misunderstood what should I test.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

There is no rational reason to not allow open world, public instances or crafted jewelry to be readily upgraded to gold quality.

I disagree.

If you're not running the types of content that warrant min/max builds and gold-level jewelry, there's no need to have gold jewelry in the first place.

The content you described is not end game Trials, PvP raiding, vMA, etc.

It doesn't matter what type of content a player is running. You are making an assertion that quality level only helps the best players at the highest levels where in reality it helps players of all skill levels. It could be argued quality is just as, or maybe more, important for lower skill players because it lets them complete content at the edge of their abilities. In the end what really underlies the content argument is the players arguing against easier upgrade paths want exclusivity. As I said I could see making trial and other high content level gear such that it can't be upgraded and the only way to obtain it is to run the content or take your chances with the Golden Vendor. There is the exclusivity. However since there is no exclusivity, or if you prefer nothing that makes overland or public instance gear special, jewelry should be treated the same as the other crafts.

Remember as I previously stated this is only a problem because of the decision to reward the same gear sets regardless of content hardness level and make quality the differentiator. If ZOS would reward different sets based on hardness level upgrading wouldn't even be a discussion because higher level players would keep their exclusivity.

Taleof2Cities

Vyvrhel wrote: »

I agree that there are people who can find the game grind actually comforting, and like it (as a simple, repetitive and successful activity), but whatever I propose should not force you into doing whatever you do not like.

When a player chooses to play an MMO-style game, @Vyvrhel, you should already know before clicking “play” that there’s a certain amount of grinding involved. That’s the nature of the game genre.

Fortunately, as I mentioned above, casual players can avoid all that grind.

Because 100% of the casual content in the game does not require gold jewelry (or even purple jewelry) to complete.

Save yourself the grind, headaches, and forum complaint threads by forgetting about gold jewelry ... and just enjoy the preferred ESO content you like to play.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Vyvrhel wrote: »

I agree that there are people who can find the game grind actually comforting, and like it (as a simple, repetitive and successful activity), but whatever I propose should not force you into doing whatever you do not like.

When a player chooses to play an MMO-style game, @Vyvrhel, you should already know before clicking “play” that there’s a certain amount of grinding involved. That’s the nature of the game genre.

Fortunately, as I mentioned above, casual players can avoid all that grind.

Because 100% of the casual content in the game does not require gold jewelry (or even purple jewelry) to complete.

Save yourself the grind, headaches, and forum complaint threads by forgetting about gold jewelry ... and just enjoy the preferred ESO content you like to play.

Your still making the assertion that gold only helps high level players and it clearly does not. You also appear to associate grind with accomplishment but that is a different discussion. Just because you can complete "casual" content doesn't mean everyone does. I'm a prime example and not alone. I'm in my 60's. Due to age things like slower reflexes and vision changes high level content for me is normal and some of the easier vet level content. I generally play the game with other players at my point in life. Purple and Gold does make a difference on what we can accomplish just as it does for high level players doing hard mode. Again I say your argument really has nothing to do with need but exclusivity which I've accounted for in my argument. In fact it also accounts for your apparent need or want for grinding since it doesn't allow upgrading the quality of any of the trial or group dungeon gear thereby forcing a grind.

Taleof2Cities

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Purple and Gold does make a difference on what we can accomplish just as it does for high level players doing hard mode.

Sure it makes a difference but that’s not my point.

Purple and gold is not required to complete casual content.

You can still complete that content with blue jewelry.

Purple and gold is pretty much required for high level hard mode.