Lack of Ball Group Counters

Iskiab

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

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ChunkyCat wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Just bringing this up again, because it is still a problem.

BGs right now on PC EU consist of nothing else than 4-man groups sticking together and clashing with other 4 man groups, which typically results in endless AoE fiesta where it's like rolling the dice on which sorc with Endless Fury gets the kill for their team when someone eventually drops low from someone else's burst.

That’s literally what Battlegrounds were designed for: a 4 player team against two other teams.

If you don’t want to fight a coordinated team, stick to duels.

>,>

This. Exactly.

If someone goes into a 4v4v4 match and plays solo there is no reason they should expect it to go well. Even more so if the do not even try to build for such gameplay.

Actually I do expect it to go well as long as enemy teams don't consist of 4 crosshealing cowards in tank setups, and I have plenty of good recorded & streamed BGs to prove that.

The game is more or less balanced when you get stamina builds vs stamina builds or magicka builds that don't all stick together spamming heals on each other, or magicka builds that build around getting kills rather than not dying.


Sheesh, I can't believe there's people actually cheerleading the current meta. But then again, I should have no expectations when it comes to ESO forums...

You are literally complaining because one team out played yours and blaming it on them using solid builds and teamwork and even admitting you did not contribute to working with your team as you ran around solo.

Yes, I guess doing 2,2m damage on a burst oriented build didn't contribute to group :yikes:

And how did that work out for you? Oh yea, you created this thread complaining dying because you did not play as a team in a team event.

And you tell me I should stop writing. Seems you need to start listening since most of the replies in here have a common message and that pretty much says you are wrong.

How did it work out for me? In a frustrating BG but positive KDR. And then Alt+F4.

How do you think running around in a ball group as a bowblade would work out?


Please get over the notion that playing as a team = running around in a ball spamming crossheals.

Besides, you can't pick your group mates - sometimes you get people who heal you other times you don't. Is it up to matchmaking RNG to decide how games end, rather than skill of the individual players in the group?

If we're at the point where stamina builds shouldn't exist in battlegrounds bc they can't crossheal, perhaps there is a problem.

When games are determined by overperforming aspects of the game (crossheals, tankiness) rather than how those games are played.


Also, I don't really give much weigh to what the no name muppets over here write - pretty much every competent BG player I've talked to on PC EU at the very least agrees that the tank meta is out of control in BGs, and ball groups crosshealing each other is the biggest contributor to that (as long as people are too tanky to instagib before heals kick in, which I don't think should be possible btw).

The fact is you ran solo, instead of with your team, and faced a team that worked together. It is amazing how you make up excuses for the performance of a team that works together taking you down and suggest they should not be as strong together.

In the end the we have ball group counters. We have counters to teams that work together. it is called superior tactics and the group you mentioned are the ones who had the superior tactics and you are complaining about that. It really is amazing and I am thinking BGs is not the place for you.

Also, the bar must be very low if running together and spamming heals is considered "superior tactics". Normally I'd expect "superior tactics" to take some player skill to pull off rather than just playing the "right" builds.

It worked well for them and they sent you to the forums complaining about it.

Yes, I tend to complain when something is too strong - if no one brings these things up they never get fixed.


If something works too well compared to the amount of effort & player skill required to pull off said task, there is a balance issue.

Not at all. You are confused about what 4v4v4 is all about since you are running solo. They had superior tactics as they chose to play as a team and you did not. No matter how you attempt to spin it you have made this absolutely clear.

Again with the misguided notion that I run solo.

Decimus wrote: »

It is my firm belief that these groups who just stack four people in close proximity and run around 4v1'ing people or ulti dumping are the worst thing in ESO's BG system, and the only reason for that is the lack of proper counters to them.

Wonder where I would get the idea you were running solo since this is your second sentence in the OP.

Either way, you were not running with your team and got steamrolled by a group that stuck together or your team just plain got out played.

It is still 4v4v4 and the best way to defeat a group that plays together is to out play them. You are literally complaining because you got outplayed and are making excuses.

Yes, 4v1 is usually what things result in after your 3 team mates die due to getting focused by 4 people and not playing crossheal tanks like they're apparently supposed to.


Now I want you to imagine for a moment a game where you're not pigeonholed into one type of build and playstyle in order to avoid getting "outplayed". Can you see it? Good.


If bad players can "outplay" opponents in a random BG without even knowing they're outplaying them simply by having the matchmaking system randomly throw them in with more heals & tanks than the other team, there's a serious problem.


I'm sorry if you can't see that, I cannot continue here without breaking atleast 3 forum rules.

Dude, you were focused on you facing 4 organized players and mentioning 1v4. Regardless, you are not suggesting your team faced them 4v4 and still lost. That goes back to tactics and strats along with builds. Nothing more and nothing less.

The problem is that it doesn't even need to be an organized team and that there's nothing "organized" about spamming heals & surviving with tank sets.

And if you don't think tank meta right now is a problem, well... let's just say everyone relevant in this game says otherwise.

Makes sense why the random no names don't see it as a problem though, getting killed by better players probably sucks so why not just go full tank & surround yourself by others that can save you (usually accidentally, with a random crossheal) before you die.

Sanctum74 wrote: »

As much as you can play as you want in this game it doesn’t mean you’re going to be effective. If you refuse to learn, adapt, and use teamwork in a team based setting and then create a thread refusing to listen to any input then you deserve to lose. The better team won, the keyword is team!

Look at you, missing the point entirely. Well done :clap:

The point is that gameplay shouldn't revolve around hoping to get the "better team" (i.e. more heals/tanks) via random matchmaking system, but that wider variety of playstyles should stand a chance of winning if they're better players than the opponents.

The point is that currently with how people build their characters and with how crosshealing works, nobody *** dies in battlegrounds. This is a complaint repeated over and over again by literally every streamer and content creator that focuses on PvP in ESO. It is a reason many old school players are leaving the game.


Also hilarious how you think my build(s) aren't effective, considering I go top KDR in almost every single game. Why don't you jump off your high horse and get a reality check? Oh, and read what I write.

I’m not missing the point at all, yes I agree the tanky meta sucks with such easy access to minor/major protection makes the game cheesy af, but if you’re not willing to work as a team in a team based environment then why bother complaining.

I’m also a solo player too and group up a few times a year and I expect to have limitations rather than be salty and btw I never said your build wasn’t effective, you already established that in your op.

I never said that in my original post (few months old btw). And never did I say I'm not working with my team, anyone who has seen my streams can tell I do that a lot, regardless of class/build I'm playing.


The thread is about certain group comps (crossheals & tanks) carrying too much right now in a random queue, where you have no control over whether you have those and/or whether your opponent teams have them.

Whoever has them wins however regardless of the skill level of those players, so obviously something is broken.


I refuse to believe anyone in this game has fun fighting 4 unkillable players spamming twilight heals and block+BoLs on each other while hiding behind block, only occasionally spamming fury to steal kills if you don't focus them.


Edited my previous reply btw since it was a bit rude, my apologies - maybe you think I'm a new player or something and that's why you phrased things that way. I may be well known on PC EU, but I'd guess not that many NA or console players know me.

No need to apologize, I get it. It’s extremely frustrating especially as a solo player. There have been tons of posts and YouTube videos about it so hopefully they will make some adjustments in the near future. My ego makes me want to keep fighting these types, but I’ve learned to walk away from them in cyro which really isn’t an option in bg’s so I can see where you would want to rage. My biggest complaint is performance, it’s hard to say what needs to be fixed or adjusted when the game doesn’t work properly.

Agreed! If you look at BGs and how 4 people who coordinate their burst can melt someone ridiculously fast, extrapolate that to cyrodiil and you’ll have a really high burst meta... if the game works as intended.

I don’t mean harmony bombing either, if you can hit a tanky type for 5k having 10 people do that at the same time negates healing. It’s just harder to do it in this game because you can’t /assist to hit one target. Right now with lag abilities don’t work, fix that and encounters will end quickly, I mean, with lag some abilities like onslaught don’t even work.

Gravord

Iskiab wrote: »

PS - high damage totals aren’t necessarily a good measure of dps performance. 4 dps who don’t assist each other will have high damage totals and a loss, damage is higher from all hitting different targets and not being able to kill anyone.

Assist. Keyword for killing tanky stuff in every decent pvp mmo. Sadly 99.99% ESO players have no clue whats that, prefer to hit their own targets and become shocked they cant 2 shot tank and healer builds.

Decimus

Gravord wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

PS - high damage totals aren’t necessarily a good measure of dps performance. 4 dps who don’t assist each other will have high damage totals and a loss, damage is higher from all hitting different targets and not being able to kill anyone.

Assist. Keyword for killing tanky stuff in every decent pvp mmo. Sadly 99.99% ESO players have no clue whats that, prefer to hit their own targets and become shocked they cant 2 shot tank and healer builds.

To be honest, and this is probably very ironic coming from me; I don't really think 2 shotting people (tank or no tank) is healthy for the game either.

Some of my builds have almost no burst (the magcro has only blastbones as burst for example) and can still pressure people down over a short period of time.

The problem is when you're fighting someone and pressuring them down and they get healed by another person, usually by a matriarch sorc fighting the other team 20m away because someone thought it'd be a good idea to have non-targeted burst heals that heal multiple people in the game. Or maybe multiple rapid regens hit that player you're trying to fight, because that's another non-targeted "smart" heal that just automatically jumps to players as long as you're within range.


I have less of a problem with people who actively play a healing or supporting role and make conscious in game decisions to save their team mates. The problem is with the "automatic" heals that require no thought output, no conscious decision making and yet carry hard whenever present and make the game a living hell for people in the other teams.

A lot of the problems could be solved if heals such as twilight or rapid regen had to be targeted/aimed at your team mates, we'd see exactly how "good" some of these players are at their "team play".


Because while DPS needs a lot of coordination to assist each other and focus the same target, healers/people with crossheals need none right now.

Gravord

Decimus wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

PS - high damage totals aren’t necessarily a good measure of dps performance. 4 dps who don’t assist each other will have high damage totals and a loss, damage is higher from all hitting different targets and not being able to kill anyone.

Assist. Keyword for killing tanky stuff in every decent pvp mmo. Sadly 99.99% ESO players have no clue whats that, prefer to hit their own targets and become shocked they cant 2 shot tank and healer builds.

To be honest, and this is probably very ironic coming from me; I don't really think 2 shotting people (tank or no tank) is healthy for the game either.

Some of my builds have almost no burst (the magcro has only blastbones as burst for example) and can still pressure people down over a short period of time.

The problem is when you're fighting someone and pressuring them down and they get healed by another person, usually by a matriarch sorc fighting the other team 20m away because someone thought it'd be a good idea to have non-targeted burst heals that heal multiple people in the game. Or maybe multiple rapid regens hit that player you're trying to fight, because that's another non-targeted "smart" heal that just automatically jumps to players as long as you're within range.


I have less of a problem with people who actively play a healing or supporting role and make conscious in game decisions to save their team mates. The problem is with the "automatic" heals that require no thought output, no conscious decision making and yet carry hard whenever present and make the game a living hell for people in the other teams.

A lot of the problems could be solved if heals such as twilight or rapid regen had to be targeted/aimed at your team mates, we'd see exactly how "good" some of these players are at their "team play".


Because while DPS needs a lot of coordination to assist each other and focus the same target, healers/people with crossheals need none right now.

Tbh matriarch alone is a problem right now, wastly outperforming any heal in game. It can be used to huge benefit by any sorc build that stacks magicka (so... every single one of them), doesnt even have to be dedicated healer. It heals for way too much (having sorc, necro and templar healers im getting frequent 12k matriarch crits while bol/blood sacrifice seem to crit at best 6k), it doesnt require facing target you want to heal as it heals in every direction and as thats not enough it heals 2 targets plus matriarch itself.

ESO healing was always simplistic, every decent mmo have targetting, which require healer to think and choose who and when will receive hots, absorbs, big heals, single target cleanses and so on. But thats not gonna change in this game.

Iskiab

Gravord wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

PS - high damage totals aren’t necessarily a good measure of dps performance. 4 dps who don’t assist each other will have high damage totals and a loss, damage is higher from all hitting different targets and not being able to kill anyone.

Assist. Keyword for killing tanky stuff in every decent pvp mmo. Sadly 99.99% ESO players have no clue whats that, prefer to hit their own targets and become shocked they cant 2 shot tank and healer builds.

To be honest, and this is probably very ironic coming from me; I don't really think 2 shotting people (tank or no tank) is healthy for the game either.

Some of my builds have almost no burst (the magcro has only blastbones as burst for example) and can still pressure people down over a short period of time.

The problem is when you're fighting someone and pressuring them down and they get healed by another person, usually by a matriarch sorc fighting the other team 20m away because someone thought it'd be a good idea to have non-targeted burst heals that heal multiple people in the game. Or maybe multiple rapid regens hit that player you're trying to fight, because that's another non-targeted "smart" heal that just automatically jumps to players as long as you're within range.


I have less of a problem with people who actively play a healing or supporting role and make conscious in game decisions to save their team mates. The problem is with the "automatic" heals that require no thought output, no conscious decision making and yet carry hard whenever present and make the game a living hell for people in the other teams.

A lot of the problems could be solved if heals such as twilight or rapid regen had to be targeted/aimed at your team mates, we'd see exactly how "good" some of these players are at their "team play".


Because while DPS needs a lot of coordination to assist each other and focus the same target, healers/people with crossheals need none right now.

Tbh matriarch alone is a problem right now, wastly outperforming any heal in game. It can be used to huge benefit by any sorc build that stacks magicka (so... every single one of them), doesnt even have to be dedicated healer. It heals for way too much (having sorc, necro and templar healers im getting frequent 12k matriarch crits while bol/blood sacrifice seem to crit at best 6k), it doesnt require facing target you want to heal as it heals in every direction and as thats not enough it heals 2 targets plus matriarch itself.

ESO healing was always simplistic, every decent mmo have targetting, which require healer to think and choose who and when will receive hots, absorbs, big heals, single target cleanses and so on. But thats not gonna change in this game.

Yea, targeted healing doesn’t work well. The issue is facing and no target system. If it was an old style MMO where healers used grid or other tools to heal it’d be fine, but actually picking a target in a crowd to heal them with heals like symbiosis is impractical.

Non-target healing is moreso a players who play stamina all the time complaint because they usually use all self heals. Imagine if you needed to somehow target yourself to use vigor and the issue is obvious.

Major_Lag

Iskiab wrote: »

Yea, targeted healing doesn’t work well. The issue is facing and no target system. If it was an old style MMO where healers used grid or other tools to heal it’d be fine, but actually picking a target in a crowd to heal them with heals like symbiosis is impractical.

So very much this!

In fact I'd go one step further, and say that in larger groups (typical of what you might see in Cyro) it is not merely impractical, but in fact it's outright impossible, what with ESO's extremely clunky targeting system.

I tried to use Symbiosis on my healer in Cyro, back when Symbiosis was actually a very good heal - that is to say, before the nerf, when channeling it used to cost magicka instead of returning it.
Putting aside the horrible bugs its channel suffered from, even when it was actually working its performance would be best described as feast-or-famine.

IF you could actually get its channel to connect with the intended target, it was a very strong single target heal - quite possibly the strongest non-ultimate HoT in the game. Fair enough, considering that you were very vulnerable while channeling it and couldn't do anything else without dropping the channel first.

BUT, most of the time when you tried to use it, its channel would instead hit any one of the number of people crowded around the intended target, wasting the GCD and resulting in no useful healing whatsoever.

So in short... sure, you can have targeted single-target healing abilities - but not until ZOS comes up with a workable targeting system first.
And given ZOS' track record on such things, I won't be holding my breath for that one, that's for certain.

MurderMostFoul

Given the targeting system we have been given, and without suggesting to alter any other core game mechanics, I think the easiest change to implement would be reducing healing received from other players in PvP.

Right now, you can easily throw out tons of healing as a tanky healer and not even worry about targeting. So any group, premade or not, can just huddle around such a player and all become very difficult to take down.

Meanwhile, ranged players targeting such a group can't acquire one target consistently, and melee players are focused and AOEed when they try to engage.

Put two or three such groups in a BG and your facing another stalemate type match with damage dealers banging away at each other, hoping conditions line up for them to where their team has a couple more kills than the others before the timer runs out.

I don't want healing removed from PvP, nor do I want a penalty for coordination. I just want huddling around a healer to be less of an easy, dominant play style in deathmatch. The game would be much more enjoyable.

Iskiab

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Given the targeting system we have been given, and without suggesting to alter any other core game mechanics, I think the easiest change to implement would be reducing healing received from other players in PvP.

Right now, you can easily throw out tons of healing as a tanky healer and not even worry about targeting. So any group, premade or not, can just huddle around such a player and all become very difficult to take down.

Meanwhile, ranged players targeting such a group can't acquire one target consistently, and melee players are focused and AOEed when they try to engage.

Put two or three such groups in a BG and your facing another stalemate type match with damage dealers banging away at each other, hoping conditions line up for them to where their team has a couple more kills than the others before the timer runs out.

I don't want healing removed from PvP, nor do I want a penalty for coordination. I just want huddling around a healer to be less of an easy, dominant play style in deathmatch. The game would be much more enjoyable.

I agree with this yea. However, you’ll need to reduce damage as well. For example against mag ball groups, stam can’t really get close enough to do damage without getting blown up. Reduce healing and not damage and they won’t stand a chance.

The pvp buff reducing damage and healing to 40% from 50% would be a good change. It would be much less about one shot combos, intentionally using desyncs, and other stuff like that and moreso about outplaying your opponent.

MurderMostFoul

Iskiab wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Given the targeting system we have been given, and without suggesting to alter any other core game mechanics, I think the easiest change to implement would be reducing healing received from other players in PvP.

Right now, you can easily throw out tons of healing as a tanky healer and not even worry about targeting. So any group, premade or not, can just huddle around such a player and all become very difficult to take down.

Meanwhile, ranged players targeting such a group can't acquire one target consistently, and melee players are focused and AOEed when they try to engage.

Put two or three such groups in a BG and your facing another stalemate type match with damage dealers banging away at each other, hoping conditions line up for them to where their team has a couple more kills than the others before the timer runs out.

I don't want healing removed from PvP, nor do I want a penalty for coordination. I just want huddling around a healer to be less of an easy, dominant play style in deathmatch. The game would be much more enjoyable.

I agree with this yea. However, you’ll need to reduce damage as well. For example against mag ball groups, stam can’t really get close enough to do damage without getting blown up. Reduce healing and not damage and they won’t stand a chance.

The pvp buff reducing damage and healing to 40% from 50% would be a good change. It would be much less about one shot combos, intentionally using desyncs, and other stuff like that and moreso about outplaying your opponent.

I'm not too concerned about a group of people sticking together and doing a lot of damage. That's kind of to be expected. The problem arises when there is a healer among them that makes them difficult, if not impossible, to kill. Unless of course you have a healer in your group as well and then we're back to a stalemate situation.

But a group sticking together and hitting the same target is going to be able to kill quickly unless you drastically lower their damage, which wouldn't be good for anyone.

If you're dealing with a group that is sticking together and hitting the same target, but doesn't have a healer easily keeping everyone topped off, the counter to that is to group up and target one of them. Then you'll at least have dynamic combat, where people die more frequently, and skilled play is more rewarded

CompM4s

This is a huge l2p thread. Ball groups kill you because they are better. They work as a team in a team based pvp arena. Also most ball group players would probably kill you 1v1 anyways, since they understand their classes.

Decimus

CompM4s wrote: »

This is a huge l2p thread. Ball groups kill you because they are better. They work as a team in a team based pvp arena. Also most ball group players would probably kill you 1v1 anyways, since they understand their classes.

Oh look at that, someone else who clearly has no idea whom they're talking to, yet want to bring "skill" into the mix.

Here's a fact about those players who you claim to be "better" and "understand their classes": most of them have been literally 1vX'd when they're not in a ball group.


So perhaps, just perhaps... there is a big discrepancy when it comes to performance of certain group compositions and teams with crossheals vs teams with no crossheals.

There's ways to work as a team without running around in some mindless ball spamming "smart" heals that automatically target the people around you (with absolutely zero player skill required) until the timer runs out in a BG, hoping the sorcs in your team manage to steal more kills than opponent teams.

MurderMostFoul

CompM4s wrote: »

This is a huge l2p thread. Ball groups kill you because they are better. They work as a team in a team based pvp arena. Also most ball group players would probably kill you 1v1 anyways, since they understand their classes.

Taking advantage of vastly over-performing healing does not make someone better at the game. That's like saying you're better at a single player game because you figured out you that can beat it by setting the difficulty to "beginner." Having an easy-mode in BGs makes the game less fun, and it certainly doesn't make the players who use it "better" than other players.

Some of the core mechanics of this game, along with the design of several healing abilities, creates a serious imbalance between healing and damage. This is not good for the health of the game and should be addressed.

Iskiab

The current magball meta is a bit skill and a bit unfair at the same time.

There’s definitely skill involved. When two magballs meet some guilds do it a lot better than others. It was thought up by some people, then emulated so there are a lot of people who know the basics, not the why or what exactly, so get wrecked when they meet a group with all the right pieces.

It’s also sorta unfair because it mostly excludes stamina. They can play as a part of the ball, not are not an integral piece and they’d be almost/just as strong without them.

In one sense it’s genius because it’s based on a knowledge of how small scalers and stamina usually build to take advantage of it, but it does it a little too well imo. Stamina just need to be able to contribute and it’d be okay I think, excluding half the classes is a little BS, somewhat like an all stamina trial group.