Cyrodiil Performance

Kalixte

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs9dgPapNOQ

@FENGRUSH talks about this way better than I will ever do and is entirely worth watching (01:45:00 is the key moment). You want feedback from us, here is some, with several solutions that would significantly improve the awful performances and unminded gameplay Cyrodiil has to offer these days. Please answer this: why such an obvious good change is still not happening?

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam

Kalixte

Burying your heads in the sand, you are really good at this, 5 years of practice tho so I guess no surprise here. Sorry, i'm a bit of a stubborn d*ckhead.

VaranisArano

Is this the same discussion referenced here? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/494988/cyrodiil-performance-group-size-and-heals

If not, a summary would be nice. Since you really shouldnt bump your own thread without adding actual content.

Kalixte

Well, didn't know someone else already made one, but thank you for the link. In the end, not really surprising someonde did and it's a good thing. Better be insistent with Zenimax anyway. Finally, the state of PvP is worrying me a bit more than forum rules.

josh.lackey_ESO

Believe it or not, sorting a list is pretty efficient.

And he is wrong, you don't have to sort the list with every "smart" heal that gets cast. You just need to maintain one list that every smart heal references. You only have it update it once for every time slice. So you only need to look up who is at the top of the list, not sort the entire list.

If they are using an implementation that needlessly sorts the list every time a smart heal is cast, they need to fix their implementation, not nerf smart heals.

Fengrush just wants to see the healing nerfed and he's coming up with a reason to justify it. In general, he is pretty heavily biased toward stamina builds and the performance of his own group compositions.

He goes on to argue we should limit AoE heals (which are NOT smart heals) to only group members -- but then he excludes single-target heals like BoL which are actually a smart heals. So his own position is inconsistent.

Comparing it to a lack of "smart damage" is silly because you can actively target opponents. You can't target allies.

He just wants his own groups to be able to stomp less organized groups more easily. Which is fine to some extent, organized play should be an advantage. But he what he proposes to do with healing would just be a bloodbath.

It would actually make zerging worse as casuals wouldn't be able to play without joining a "type X in zone" zerg groups, and seeing each others' positions would just make them bunch up even more. It would be the death of smaller scale PvP. Pugs wouldn't have any chance outside of the zerg group.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Believe it or not, sorting a list is pretty efficient.

And he is wrong, you don't have to sort the list with every "smart" heal that gets cast. You just need to maintain one list that every smart heal references. You only have it update it once for every time slice. So you only need to look up who is at the top of the list, not sort the entire list.

If they are using an implementation that needlessly sorts the list every time a smart heal is cast, they need to fix their implementation, not nerf smart heals.

Fengrush just wants to see the healing nerfed and he's coming up with a reason to justify it. In general, he is pretty heavily biased toward stamina builds and the performance of his own group compositions.

He goes on to argue we should limit AoE heals (which are NOT smart heals) to only group members -- but then he excludes single-target heals like BoL which are actually a smart heals. So his own position is inconsistent.

Comparing it to a lack of "smart damage" is silly because you can actively target opponents. You can't target allies.

He just wants his own groups to be able to stomp less organized groups more easily. Which is fine to some extent, organized play should be an advantage. But he what he proposes to do with healing would just be a bloodbath.

It would actually make zerging worse as casuals wouldn't be able to play without joining a "type X in zone" zerg groups, and seeing each others' positions would just make them bunch up even more. It would be the death of smaller scale PvP. Pugs wouldn't have any chance outside of the zerg group.

I would support limiting groups to 12 and restricting healing to in group to simply move pvp back to a state of rewarding organized play. There has always been zerging in game of course however the faction stacking we're seeing now (as a percentage of overall server population) is unprecedented and there are a number of reasons for this..all of which are my personal opinions and observations so please feel free to disagree.

The direction that the developers have been moving for the last 3 years in lowering the ceiling and raising the floor haven't produced the results desired and have had massively negative unintended consequences.They have actually, in effect, raised both the floor and the ceiling pushing growing and learning groups into stacking. Attempting to make pvp more casual friendly hasn't attracted the massive new blood into Cyrodiil and I believe have driven away many players. Many organized groups that used to go off on their own to make fights haven't been able to adapt to the large changes and intentional nerfs to group play (raising the ceiling) have simply decided to stack with their faction. Newly formed guilds and groups attempting to find fights outside of their faction stack are simply run over by the enemy stack and are unable to gain experience and grow. These groups will quickly become tired of being zerged down and will stack with their faction. The handful of organized groups that have been able to adapt to these changes must be prepared to fight an entire faction or have nothing to fight at all and will migrate to where the action is adding to the faction stack mess and lag.

Those same groups mentioned above that have been able to adapt are now the bane of the game and the catalyst for more moves to raise the floor even more. The reason these groups are an issue is that there are too few of them. Raising the floor further only exacerbates this problem more. It's time for the ceiling to be lowered. Fixing a problem that was created in an attempt to make pvp more casual friendly by making the game more casual friendly won't end well.


Small scale is all but dead due to these changes as well. At one time we had healthy smallscale, 1VX, medium and largescale pvp opportunities on the map with multiple fights going on. Now we have factionstacks and 3 fights in the emp ring. I think most agree that faction stacking is bad for the health of the game yet the mechanics promote it heavily so we get what we get. I'm not sure I agree that restricting heals and buffs to groups would make casual zergs stronger.

asneakybanana

The problem with limiting AoE heals to group only is that it would greatly hurt the effectiveness of the solo and duo more casual players that don't want to join a group but still want to feel like they are making an impact. Imagine going into cyro just to want to help siege and run around the map helping to flip keeps, if you make AoE heals group only that player is basically going to be forced to join up with the zone LFG group which may be too serious and not fun for them and that would make them not want to play.

I think limiting group size to 12 or 16 vs 24 would be a decent start, there are already many buffs that only go to group such as rapids and purge so this would make it less efficient to stack 80 people on top of each other because they would need more people purging and things of that nature. Look at groups like Drac and AoE Rats over on EU, they show that you don't need 24 to be successful and really all adding those extra 12 or so people to the group is doing is increasing lag by allowing players to ball up easier.

I think another good option could be removing fight swords from the map or, making it so there is just one size sword whether its 4 people fighting or 80. This will help to spread people out a bit because they wont just be drawn to wherever the large fight is since it will be harder to tell.

Also removing/lowering offense ticks to support defending rather than PVDoor could also be good because it will stop people from being as prone to just riding the zerg as they pvdoor keeps and get their 9k AP per keep since this is likely far easier for them to make AP this way than properly fighting.

There is also adding back dynamic ultimate to the game which was a proper mechanic for smaller groups to deal with large ones, obviously there were some issues with this system (Healing springs spam to build ult and things like that) but with all the changes they've made to the ultimate building system I think this could be a good mechanic at aiding smaller groups in taking on much much larger ones.

Crispen_Longbow