Undaunted Heavy Attack PVP Build (Magplar and MagDK)

RiskyChalice863

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

* DKs only get a buff on the last tick of the heavy attack (lightning), if you are using melee weapons/bow - it only buffs the base damage not counting the sets.

* Managing to keep up empower would work the best for Nightblades due to passives for the matters of damage.

* The easiest to manage it all is templar due to 10 second empower.

* Since Markarth you can also use weapon damage / max stamina for Lightning staff and vice-versa. Even though stacking damage provides minimal actual damage - I personally use weapon damage/stamina for Vigor and to increase dodge roll pool while on a Lightning staff.

* Using Pale Order on empowered Lightning attacks provides an average of 600-1200 heal ticks (single target) and additional if aoes are hit. + 1500-2000 plus 5Kish (final tick) or more if on Resto heavies.

Hello cyrodiil, let the nightmare begin.

On the first point, I don’t think it is true that Molten Armaments only buffs the last tick of the lightning heavy attack. That was true several patches ago, but it got changed and last I checked it was working.

That is a good point regarding the Templar empower uptime being really easy to keep up. I’ve always thought that the Magplar version of this build was the easiest to play even if the MagDK was the most powerful on paper. Toppling Charge is extremely good for this build since it’s a really easy source of off balance combined with a stun. Meanwhile, Restoring Focus is a really cheap/good stamina ability to proc Undaunted Unweaver. In contrast, MagDKs need 2-3 global cooldowns to do what Toppling Charge does in one cooldown, and they are stuck either using a really expensive stamina skill or a cheap one that wastes a global cooldown doing nothing useful. Adding the easy empower uptime from Solar Barrage may potentially make the Magplar the best option right now, even if the theoretical damage numbers from the MagDK are higher. To that end, I’m working on a concept for an updated Magplar version of the build.

Regarding using weapon damage and max stamina for lightning staff, it’s an interesting thought but I don’t think it’d be as good. The problem is that this build relies heavily on the sustain that heavy attacks provide. So, while a stamina-based version of the build could pump out as much or more damage, your heavy attacks wouldn’t be giving you the right resource back.

Regarding Pale Order, it’s a good thought and one I’d already been thinking about. I personally don’t have the item but I suspect it’d be really good for this build, assuming that it doesn’t get double hit by Battle Spirit. I typically play PvP in BGs, so I guess it might not be ideal if there were a really good healer on my team, but usually that isn’t the case.

Sonce you decided to use max weapon damage/ stamina for lighting staff, why not usespider cultisr. Provide 600 weapon/spell damage abilties inluding LA & HA.AND ANY other set you would like with it. Also, why not use power of light to proc unweaver instead of retoring rune? It is cheap and reduce target resistance, morph restoring rune bacl to magicka and be on top of your sustain if you need it, win-win.

I think you misread what I said. I have determined that using max weapon damage/ stamina for lightning staff is not good. The reason is that building into stamina with a lightning staff makes the sustain you get from lightning heavy attacks not nearly as useful.

Point of it is to use binding javelin for a ranged stun and vigor heals, combined with rapid regen. Having 32k stam and nearly 3k weapon damage heals for a ton, plus you got a pool to roll dodge. 22k magicka provides a decent Heal from Rapids also. I rarely run out of stamina in any of the fights.

Using toppling charge is a death sentence in any forms of pvp unless its a 1v1.

I just tried creating a stamina version of this build. Its strengths and weaknesses are actually different than I thought. Some thoughts about a Stamina Templar version of this below

- I had thought that sustain would much more of an issue on a stamina version, given that the lightning staff is regenerating magicka, not stamina. That hasn’t really turned out to be the case though. The reality is that you don’t actually need to use a lot of stamina on a stamina version of the build. I still use Solar Barrage of course, as well as Toppling Charge and Extended Ritual. My main stamina drain is basically just keeping Vigor up and blocking and doge rolling. So, even with pretty low stam recovery I didn’t find it an issue because I’m actually not using much stamina.

- I had thought that the stamina version would be bulkier. And it is true that it has got several thousand higher health and resistances. But it’s a little complicated on this front. Despite being bulkier on paper, it felt a lot harder to get back on my feet after a burst of damage comes in. This is because the burst healing is massively inferior. I tried running Rally on the back bar, but the weapon damage and stamina isn’t very high with this build, so Rally is basically a pretty mediocre single-use burst heal. I tried running damage shields instead (two of spike bone shield, radiant ward, defensive posture), but that felt pretty mediocre. The reality is that I basically can’t do what I did on the magicka version—which was respond to being taken to low health by burst healing, mist forming around a corner and burst healing a couple more times, etc. Once I was low on the stamina version I felt like there was no coming back from it the vast majority of the time. I guess the reality is that sometimes this build will stay alive from a burst that the magicka version would just die from upfront, but overall I felt like I was at the mercy of bursty builds like stamdens, nightblades, and magsorcs.

- That said, the build felt a lot better defensively against DoT-heavy opponents. The magicka version really struggled with this because of lack of healing over time. The stamina version has Vigor, though, and I can actually just use it to renew Undaunted Unweaver, and therefore keep Vigor heals up using a global cooldown that my magicka version would’ve often wasted on casting Restoring Focus when it was still active. So basically, I can keep Vigor up most of the time while keeping up the same kind of pressure on the opponent that I can on the magicka version. Combined with Pale Order heals and potentially Extended Ritual, this makes me able to stay on the offensive against sustained damage way better.

- The damage of the stamina version is a decent bit lower. It’s still good, but is definitely lower. This is mostly because of the lack of the spell penetration passive from light armor. I believe the lightning staff is affected by spell resistance regardless of whether you’re a magicka or stamina character, and so the stamina version basically just loses 4884 penetration—which is a lot (probably about 10% damage). You also do only about 2/3 of the damage on Toppling Charge and Solar Barrage. Not a huge deal, since those aren’t a big component of your damage, but it’s not nothing. Overall, I did feel like there were times where I got people low that the magicka version would’ve killed and times I couldn’t really damage through healing on people that I think the magicka version could’ve.

The upshot is that I found the stamina version a bit more inconsistent. In BGs without bursty opponents, I was able to dominate in a way that the magicka version actually probably couldn’t (for instance, just had 26 kills and 2 deaths in a BG that I got put into about a third of the way through), because I could stay on the offensive almost constantly. But in BGs with bursty opponents, I’d basically just get burst down to low health and usually have no viable way of getting back from it, while the magicka version can really kite and heal after a burst to get back on its feet and turn things around, and that extra damage on the magicka version really allows you to turn the tables better. So, I think I probably like the magicka version better because it basically is never bad, but the stamina version has situations where it is stronger.

Waffennacht

4884 penetration = 7.4% dmg

RiskyChalice863

Waffennacht wrote: »

4884 penetration = 7.4% dmg

Not exactly. Yes it is true that 4884/660=7.4. But the denominator here isn’t 100. I’ll illustrate what I mean. Let’s say you are attacking someone with 20,000 resistance and you have 6000 penetration without the light armor passive. Without the light armor passive, you will do 78.79% of the tooltip damage (not counting Battle Spirit which would obviously half that in PvP). With the light armor passive, you will do 86.19% of the tooltip damage. The difference in damage you’ll do there is actually 9.4%, not 7.4% (because 86.19/78.79 = 1.094).

And then when you factor in healing, the amount by which you actually lower someone’s health can be significantly higher. As an example, let’s say the tooltip damage on the above is 10,000 per second. Without the light armor passive, you’ll do 3940 damage per second in PvP (10,000*0.7879*0.5). With the light armor passive you’ll do 4310 damage per second. Now, let’s say your opponent has 1,500 healing per second and no one else is attacking him. Without the light armor passive, you’ll actually decrease his health by 2440 per second. With the light armor passive, you’ll decrease his health by 2810 per second. 2810 is 15.2% more than 2440.

Waffennacht

Gonna link this in the other forum that's asking for help

RiskyChalice863

I have tried a somewhat interesting variant of this—which is a Templar version that is Nord with 64 points into health. I don’t have ideal gear for this, but right now my stats in no-CP are 30k health, and a bit over 19k magicka and stamina, with 23k spell resistance and 18k physical resistance. With better gear for this and prismatics and whatnot, this could get to 33k health, 21k magicka, and 20k stamina, and 24k spell resistance and almost 20k physical resistance (and more on the back bar from the Defending trait).

On this health-based version, I have run UU and UI (with 5 light armor), Maw of the Infernal, and a Potentates back bar.

I think the skills would ideally look something like this:

Front Bar: Restoring Focus, Inner Light, Resolving Vigor, Toppling Charge, Solar Barrage, Temporal Guard
Back Bar: Radiant Ward, Spiked Bone Shield, Rapid Regen, Extended Ritual, Elusive Mist, Life Giver

While you are a health-based character, your damage doesn’t get affected very much by stats. Meanwhile, you don’t have high healing, you do have good damage shields. And your magicka and stamina pools are not very high, but sustain on a heavy attack build is pretty easy, so it’s not a very big deal.

This build still does a ton of damage. Yes, running stats into health and going Nord lowers damage. But the heavy attack damage is only affected very little by stats, so it’s not a huge difference. And I’m running 5 light armor, the Maw of the Infernal, the Lover mundus stone, and a sharpened weapon, so the overall damage output is still really good.

With 30k health, minor protection, decent resistances, two large damage shields, and a damage shield on block on the front bar, this build is definitely harder to burst down than other UU/UI builds I’ve tried (though there definitely are tankier builds—this is still a light armor build that isn’t running defensive sets). That said, even with the damage shields, the lack of healing output can potentially make it hard to come back from being on the back foot after taking a huge chunk of damage. But that’s where Life Giver comes in. It’s a cheap ultimate that allows you to reset a fight and get on the offensive. And with the Nord passives, spamming Solar Barrage a ton, and using heavy attacks all the time, you’ll be getting Life Giver really frequently.

I’m not sure this is the best version of the build, but it is definitely competitive.

Waffennacht

Finally faced one. Very solid offense, seemed rather squishy to me though.

RiskyChalice863

Waffennacht wrote: »

Finally faced one. Very solid offense, seemed rather squishy to me though.

It definitely can be quite squishy. You can’t run a heavy armor set (and probably should run 5 light for the penetration and crit passives). Your lack of stats makes you not have very good self healing. And you’re fairly vulnerable and slow moving while channeling a heavy attack. So if you don’t build in defense, you will be squishy.

That said, because so much of the damage comes from the sets (and not magicka or spell damage) and sustain is not an issue, you can use a lot of the build to bolster your defense. For example, you could go Nord, run protective jewelry, put some attribute points into health, and run a healing monster set like Chokethorn or Earthgore (along with perhaps the Pale Order ring as well if you’re okay with bar swapping to proc UU and UI) without really giving up very much in terms of damage or sustain. And you can/should run fight-reset ultimates, like Temporal Guard and Life Giver. Meanwhile, you’ll already naturally have a higher stamina pool than a normal magicka build, and you’ll be running Restoring Focus as well, so you’ll be able to block and dodge roll a lot and not have problems with breaking free. I also run Elusive Mist on it, which adds some escapability.

For instance, you could get all the following with this build at once in No-CP:
- 25.5k health
- 27.7k spell resistance and 23.2k physical resistance on the front bar and 31k spell resistance and 26.5k physical resistance on the back bar (not counting standing in your rune)
- Minor protection
- Lots of passive healing through Rapid Regen, Extended Ritual, Pale Order heals, and Chokethorn procs, as well as burst healing from a fairly weak but still okay Honor the Dead (particularly useful in combination with Elusive Mist)
- Resto ult to reset a fight (along with Temporal Guard to possibly do the same), with high ult gen from being Nord and using Solar Barrage all the time
- Access to a 4k damage shield to limit burst potential on you if you think a burst is coming
- 2.5k damage shield on block on the front bar
- Purge from Extended Ritual
- Elusive Mist that you’ll be able to abuse a ton because your magicka pool will typically be so topped up (and which you can combine with Unstable Core to allow for easier getaways)
- All impen gear to limit burst potential
- A large stamina pool (almost 20k) with lots of stamina sustain—mostly because of Restoring Focus—which allows you to dodge, block, and break free plenty

And you can do that while having a build that does over 26k damage per lightning heavy attack, and just below 40k on an off balance opponent (while having easy access to off balance), with 10,904 penetration (after 10% of their resistance is taken off due to the destruction staff passive), a 35.8% crit rate and 60% crit damage. And that damage is AOE.

You could even go tankier than that to be honest. That’s just an example. Is it the tankiest possible build? No. But the above isn’t squishy either. And it does a lot of damage.

Mr_Nobody

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

* DKs only get a buff on the last tick of the heavy attack (lightning), if you are using melee weapons/bow - it only buffs the base damage not counting the sets.

* Managing to keep up empower would work the best for Nightblades due to passives for the matters of damage.

* The easiest to manage it all is templar due to 10 second empower.

* Since Markarth you can also use weapon damage / max stamina for Lightning staff and vice-versa. Even though stacking damage provides minimal actual damage - I personally use weapon damage/stamina for Vigor and to increase dodge roll pool while on a Lightning staff.

* Using Pale Order on empowered Lightning attacks provides an average of 600-1200 heal ticks (single target) and additional if aoes are hit. + 1500-2000 plus 5Kish (final tick) or more if on Resto heavies.

Hello cyrodiil, let the nightmare begin.

On the first point, I don’t think it is true that Molten Armaments only buffs the last tick of the lightning heavy attack. That was true several patches ago, but it got changed and last I checked it was working.

That is a good point regarding the Templar empower uptime being really easy to keep up. I’ve always thought that the Magplar version of this build was the easiest to play even if the MagDK was the most powerful on paper. Toppling Charge is extremely good for this build since it’s a really easy source of off balance combined with a stun. Meanwhile, Restoring Focus is a really cheap/good stamina ability to proc Undaunted Unweaver. In contrast, MagDKs need 2-3 global cooldowns to do what Toppling Charge does in one cooldown, and they are stuck either using a really expensive stamina skill or a cheap one that wastes a global cooldown doing nothing useful. Adding the easy empower uptime from Solar Barrage may potentially make the Magplar the best option right now, even if the theoretical damage numbers from the MagDK are higher. To that end, I’m working on a concept for an updated Magplar version of the build.

Regarding using weapon damage and max stamina for lightning staff, it’s an interesting thought but I don’t think it’d be as good. The problem is that this build relies heavily on the sustain that heavy attacks provide. So, while a stamina-based version of the build could pump out as much or more damage, your heavy attacks wouldn’t be giving you the right resource back.

Regarding Pale Order, it’s a good thought and one I’d already been thinking about. I personally don’t have the item but I suspect it’d be really good for this build, assuming that it doesn’t get double hit by Battle Spirit. I typically play PvP in BGs, so I guess it might not be ideal if there were a really good healer on my team, but usually that isn’t the case.

Sonce you decided to use max weapon damage/ stamina for lighting staff, why not usespider cultisr. Provide 600 weapon/spell damage abilties inluding LA & HA.AND ANY other set you would like with it. Also, why not use power of light to proc unweaver instead of retoring rune? It is cheap and reduce target resistance, morph restoring rune bacl to magicka and be on top of your sustain if you need it, win-win.

I think you misread what I said. I have determined that using max weapon damage/ stamina for lightning staff is not good. The reason is that building into stamina with a lightning staff makes the sustain you get from lightning heavy attacks not nearly as useful.

Point of it is to use binding javelin for a ranged stun and vigor heals, combined with rapid regen. Having 32k stam and nearly 3k weapon damage heals for a ton, plus you got a pool to roll dodge. 22k magicka provides a decent Heal from Rapids also. I rarely run out of stamina in any of the fights.

Using toppling charge is a death sentence in any forms of pvp unless its a 1v1.

I just tried creating a stamina version of this build. Its strengths and weaknesses are actually different than I thought. Some thoughts about a Stamina Templar version of this below

- I had thought that sustain would much more of an issue on a stamina version, given that the lightning staff is regenerating magicka, not stamina. That hasn’t really turned out to be the case though. The reality is that you don’t actually need to use a lot of stamina on a stamina version of the build. I still use Solar Barrage of course, as well as Toppling Charge and Extended Ritual. My main stamina drain is basically just keeping Vigor up and blocking and doge rolling. So, even with pretty low stam recovery I didn’t find it an issue because I’m actually not using much stamina.

- I had thought that the stamina version would be bulkier. And it is true that it has got several thousand higher health and resistances. But it’s a little complicated on this front. Despite being bulkier on paper, it felt a lot harder to get back on my feet after a burst of damage comes in. This is because the burst healing is massively inferior. I tried running Rally on the back bar, but the weapon damage and stamina isn’t very high with this build, so Rally is basically a pretty mediocre single-use burst heal. I tried running damage shields instead (two of spike bone shield, radiant ward, defensive posture), but that felt pretty mediocre. The reality is that I basically can’t do what I did on the magicka version—which was respond to being taken to low health by burst healing, mist forming around a corner and burst healing a couple more times, etc. Once I was low on the stamina version I felt like there was no coming back from it the vast majority of the time. I guess the reality is that sometimes this build will stay alive from a burst that the magicka version would just die from upfront, but overall I felt like I was at the mercy of bursty builds like stamdens, nightblades, and magsorcs.

- That said, the build felt a lot better defensively against DoT-heavy opponents. The magicka version really struggled with this because of lack of healing over time. The stamina version has Vigor, though, and I can actually just use it to renew Undaunted Unweaver, and therefore keep Vigor heals up using a global cooldown that my magicka version would’ve often wasted on casting Restoring Focus when it was still active. So basically, I can keep Vigor up most of the time while keeping up the same kind of pressure on the opponent that I can on the magicka version. Combined with Pale Order heals and potentially Extended Ritual, this makes me able to stay on the offensive against sustained damage way better.

- The damage of the stamina version is a decent bit lower. It’s still good, but is definitely lower. This is mostly because of the lack of the spell penetration passive from light armor. I believe the lightning staff is affected by spell resistance regardless of whether you’re a magicka or stamina character, and so the stamina version basically just loses 4884 penetration—which is a lot (probably about 10% damage). You also do only about 2/3 of the damage on Toppling Charge and Solar Barrage. Not a huge deal, since those aren’t a big component of your damage, but it’s not nothing. Overall, I did feel like there were times where I got people low that the magicka version would’ve killed and times I couldn’t really damage through healing on people that I think the magicka version could’ve.

The upshot is that I found the stamina version a bit more inconsistent. In BGs without bursty opponents, I was able to dominate in a way that the magicka version actually probably couldn’t (for instance, just had 26 kills and 2 deaths in a BG that I got put into about a third of the way through), because I could stay on the offensive almost constantly. But in BGs with bursty opponents, I’d basically just get burst down to low health and usually have no viable way of getting back from it, while the magicka version can really kite and heal after a burst to get back on its feet and turn things around, and that extra damage on the magicka version really allows you to turn the tables better. So, I think I probably like the magicka version better because it basically is never bad, but the stamina version has situations where it is stronger.

The key to playing it stamina is to use Vigor and dodge roll. I generally rotate Vigor in between 1-2 channels and keep myself up. The thing is squishy and cant take burst damage nevertheless, meaning you have to dodge roll to mitigate it.

RiskyChalice863

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

* DKs only get a buff on the last tick of the heavy attack (lightning), if you are using melee weapons/bow - it only buffs the base damage not counting the sets.

* Managing to keep up empower would work the best for Nightblades due to passives for the matters of damage.

* The easiest to manage it all is templar due to 10 second empower.

* Since Markarth you can also use weapon damage / max stamina for Lightning staff and vice-versa. Even though stacking damage provides minimal actual damage - I personally use weapon damage/stamina for Vigor and to increase dodge roll pool while on a Lightning staff.

* Using Pale Order on empowered Lightning attacks provides an average of 600-1200 heal ticks (single target) and additional if aoes are hit. + 1500-2000 plus 5Kish (final tick) or more if on Resto heavies.

Hello cyrodiil, let the nightmare begin.

On the first point, I don’t think it is true that Molten Armaments only buffs the last tick of the lightning heavy attack. That was true several patches ago, but it got changed and last I checked it was working.

That is a good point regarding the Templar empower uptime being really easy to keep up. I’ve always thought that the Magplar version of this build was the easiest to play even if the MagDK was the most powerful on paper. Toppling Charge is extremely good for this build since it’s a really easy source of off balance combined with a stun. Meanwhile, Restoring Focus is a really cheap/good stamina ability to proc Undaunted Unweaver. In contrast, MagDKs need 2-3 global cooldowns to do what Toppling Charge does in one cooldown, and they are stuck either using a really expensive stamina skill or a cheap one that wastes a global cooldown doing nothing useful. Adding the easy empower uptime from Solar Barrage may potentially make the Magplar the best option right now, even if the theoretical damage numbers from the MagDK are higher. To that end, I’m working on a concept for an updated Magplar version of the build.

Regarding using weapon damage and max stamina for lightning staff, it’s an interesting thought but I don’t think it’d be as good. The problem is that this build relies heavily on the sustain that heavy attacks provide. So, while a stamina-based version of the build could pump out as much or more damage, your heavy attacks wouldn’t be giving you the right resource back.

Regarding Pale Order, it’s a good thought and one I’d already been thinking about. I personally don’t have the item but I suspect it’d be really good for this build, assuming that it doesn’t get double hit by Battle Spirit. I typically play PvP in BGs, so I guess it might not be ideal if there were a really good healer on my team, but usually that isn’t the case.

Sonce you decided to use max weapon damage/ stamina for lighting staff, why not usespider cultisr. Provide 600 weapon/spell damage abilties inluding LA & HA.AND ANY other set you would like with it. Also, why not use power of light to proc unweaver instead of retoring rune? It is cheap and reduce target resistance, morph restoring rune bacl to magicka and be on top of your sustain if you need it, win-win.

I think you misread what I said. I have determined that using max weapon damage/ stamina for lightning staff is not good. The reason is that building into stamina with a lightning staff makes the sustain you get from lightning heavy attacks not nearly as useful.

Point of it is to use binding javelin for a ranged stun and vigor heals, combined with rapid regen. Having 32k stam and nearly 3k weapon damage heals for a ton, plus you got a pool to roll dodge. 22k magicka provides a decent Heal from Rapids also. I rarely run out of stamina in any of the fights.

Using toppling charge is a death sentence in any forms of pvp unless its a 1v1.

I just tried creating a stamina version of this build. Its strengths and weaknesses are actually different than I thought. Some thoughts about a Stamina Templar version of this below

- I had thought that sustain would much more of an issue on a stamina version, given that the lightning staff is regenerating magicka, not stamina. That hasn’t really turned out to be the case though. The reality is that you don’t actually need to use a lot of stamina on a stamina version of the build. I still use Solar Barrage of course, as well as Toppling Charge and Extended Ritual. My main stamina drain is basically just keeping Vigor up and blocking and doge rolling. So, even with pretty low stam recovery I didn’t find it an issue because I’m actually not using much stamina.

- I had thought that the stamina version would be bulkier. And it is true that it has got several thousand higher health and resistances. But it’s a little complicated on this front. Despite being bulkier on paper, it felt a lot harder to get back on my feet after a burst of damage comes in. This is because the burst healing is massively inferior. I tried running Rally on the back bar, but the weapon damage and stamina isn’t very high with this build, so Rally is basically a pretty mediocre single-use burst heal. I tried running damage shields instead (two of spike bone shield, radiant ward, defensive posture), but that felt pretty mediocre. The reality is that I basically can’t do what I did on the magicka version—which was respond to being taken to low health by burst healing, mist forming around a corner and burst healing a couple more times, etc. Once I was low on the stamina version I felt like there was no coming back from it the vast majority of the time. I guess the reality is that sometimes this build will stay alive from a burst that the magicka version would just die from upfront, but overall I felt like I was at the mercy of bursty builds like stamdens, nightblades, and magsorcs.

- That said, the build felt a lot better defensively against DoT-heavy opponents. The magicka version really struggled with this because of lack of healing over time. The stamina version has Vigor, though, and I can actually just use it to renew Undaunted Unweaver, and therefore keep Vigor heals up using a global cooldown that my magicka version would’ve often wasted on casting Restoring Focus when it was still active. So basically, I can keep Vigor up most of the time while keeping up the same kind of pressure on the opponent that I can on the magicka version. Combined with Pale Order heals and potentially Extended Ritual, this makes me able to stay on the offensive against sustained damage way better.

- The damage of the stamina version is a decent bit lower. It’s still good, but is definitely lower. This is mostly because of the lack of the spell penetration passive from light armor. I believe the lightning staff is affected by spell resistance regardless of whether you’re a magicka or stamina character, and so the stamina version basically just loses 4884 penetration—which is a lot (probably about 10% damage). You also do only about 2/3 of the damage on Toppling Charge and Solar Barrage. Not a huge deal, since those aren’t a big component of your damage, but it’s not nothing. Overall, I did feel like there were times where I got people low that the magicka version would’ve killed and times I couldn’t really damage through healing on people that I think the magicka version could’ve.

The upshot is that I found the stamina version a bit more inconsistent. In BGs without bursty opponents, I was able to dominate in a way that the magicka version actually probably couldn’t (for instance, just had 26 kills and 2 deaths in a BG that I got put into about a third of the way through), because I could stay on the offensive almost constantly. But in BGs with bursty opponents, I’d basically just get burst down to low health and usually have no viable way of getting back from it, while the magicka version can really kite and heal after a burst to get back on its feet and turn things around, and that extra damage on the magicka version really allows you to turn the tables better. So, I think I probably like the magicka version better because it basically is never bad, but the stamina version has situations where it is stronger.

The key to playing it stamina is to use Vigor and dodge roll. I generally rotate Vigor in between 1-2 channels and keep myself up. The thing is squishy and cant take burst damage nevertheless, meaning you have to dodge roll to mitigate it.

Yes, agreed.

I think the primary benefit of doing a stam version of this is really Vigor. You want to keep a solid HoT up all the time, and there’s a significant benefit in having the ability to cast a HoT that also procs UU. In the middle of a fight, it essentially saves a global cooldown that a magicka version would use on Restoring Focus (when it often doesn’t actually need to be renewed). Saving that global cooldown is a big deal since that dead GCD to renew UU can be really unfortunate. Vigor also can be on the front bar, while the magicka version would have to have its primary HoT (Rapid Regen) on the back bar.

In theory, I suppose a magicka version could run Vigor too in order to avoid the GCD problem when in fights, but the Vigor would, of course, be a good bit weaker. It’s a trade off basically, because the magicka version gets a better burst heal, and also slightly more damage even if you run light armor on both (because Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge scale off magicka).

I’m actually inclined to try Vigor on a magicka version of this build. It wouldn’t be a good Vigor, but it would still be better than a dead GCD from renewing Restoring Focus when it doesn’t need to be renewed. And you’d still have access to an actually decent Honor the Dead and Rapid Regen too, as well as decent damage on Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge.

Mr_Nobody

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

* DKs only get a buff on the last tick of the heavy attack (lightning), if you are using melee weapons/bow - it only buffs the base damage not counting the sets.

* Managing to keep up empower would work the best for Nightblades due to passives for the matters of damage.

* The easiest to manage it all is templar due to 10 second empower.

* Since Markarth you can also use weapon damage / max stamina for Lightning staff and vice-versa. Even though stacking damage provides minimal actual damage - I personally use weapon damage/stamina for Vigor and to increase dodge roll pool while on a Lightning staff.

* Using Pale Order on empowered Lightning attacks provides an average of 600-1200 heal ticks (single target) and additional if aoes are hit. + 1500-2000 plus 5Kish (final tick) or more if on Resto heavies.

Hello cyrodiil, let the nightmare begin.

On the first point, I don’t think it is true that Molten Armaments only buffs the last tick of the lightning heavy attack. That was true several patches ago, but it got changed and last I checked it was working.

That is a good point regarding the Templar empower uptime being really easy to keep up. I’ve always thought that the Magplar version of this build was the easiest to play even if the MagDK was the most powerful on paper. Toppling Charge is extremely good for this build since it’s a really easy source of off balance combined with a stun. Meanwhile, Restoring Focus is a really cheap/good stamina ability to proc Undaunted Unweaver. In contrast, MagDKs need 2-3 global cooldowns to do what Toppling Charge does in one cooldown, and they are stuck either using a really expensive stamina skill or a cheap one that wastes a global cooldown doing nothing useful. Adding the easy empower uptime from Solar Barrage may potentially make the Magplar the best option right now, even if the theoretical damage numbers from the MagDK are higher. To that end, I’m working on a concept for an updated Magplar version of the build.

Regarding using weapon damage and max stamina for lightning staff, it’s an interesting thought but I don’t think it’d be as good. The problem is that this build relies heavily on the sustain that heavy attacks provide. So, while a stamina-based version of the build could pump out as much or more damage, your heavy attacks wouldn’t be giving you the right resource back.

Regarding Pale Order, it’s a good thought and one I’d already been thinking about. I personally don’t have the item but I suspect it’d be really good for this build, assuming that it doesn’t get double hit by Battle Spirit. I typically play PvP in BGs, so I guess it might not be ideal if there were a really good healer on my team, but usually that isn’t the case.

Sonce you decided to use max weapon damage/ stamina for lighting staff, why not usespider cultisr. Provide 600 weapon/spell damage abilties inluding LA & HA.AND ANY other set you would like with it. Also, why not use power of light to proc unweaver instead of retoring rune? It is cheap and reduce target resistance, morph restoring rune bacl to magicka and be on top of your sustain if you need it, win-win.

I think you misread what I said. I have determined that using max weapon damage/ stamina for lightning staff is not good. The reason is that building into stamina with a lightning staff makes the sustain you get from lightning heavy attacks not nearly as useful.

Point of it is to use binding javelin for a ranged stun and vigor heals, combined with rapid regen. Having 32k stam and nearly 3k weapon damage heals for a ton, plus you got a pool to roll dodge. 22k magicka provides a decent Heal from Rapids also. I rarely run out of stamina in any of the fights.

Using toppling charge is a death sentence in any forms of pvp unless its a 1v1.

I just tried creating a stamina version of this build. Its strengths and weaknesses are actually different than I thought. Some thoughts about a Stamina Templar version of this below

- I had thought that sustain would much more of an issue on a stamina version, given that the lightning staff is regenerating magicka, not stamina. That hasn’t really turned out to be the case though. The reality is that you don’t actually need to use a lot of stamina on a stamina version of the build. I still use Solar Barrage of course, as well as Toppling Charge and Extended Ritual. My main stamina drain is basically just keeping Vigor up and blocking and doge rolling. So, even with pretty low stam recovery I didn’t find it an issue because I’m actually not using much stamina.

- I had thought that the stamina version would be bulkier. And it is true that it has got several thousand higher health and resistances. But it’s a little complicated on this front. Despite being bulkier on paper, it felt a lot harder to get back on my feet after a burst of damage comes in. This is because the burst healing is massively inferior. I tried running Rally on the back bar, but the weapon damage and stamina isn’t very high with this build, so Rally is basically a pretty mediocre single-use burst heal. I tried running damage shields instead (two of spike bone shield, radiant ward, defensive posture), but that felt pretty mediocre. The reality is that I basically can’t do what I did on the magicka version—which was respond to being taken to low health by burst healing, mist forming around a corner and burst healing a couple more times, etc. Once I was low on the stamina version I felt like there was no coming back from it the vast majority of the time. I guess the reality is that sometimes this build will stay alive from a burst that the magicka version would just die from upfront, but overall I felt like I was at the mercy of bursty builds like stamdens, nightblades, and magsorcs.

- That said, the build felt a lot better defensively against DoT-heavy opponents. The magicka version really struggled with this because of lack of healing over time. The stamina version has Vigor, though, and I can actually just use it to renew Undaunted Unweaver, and therefore keep Vigor heals up using a global cooldown that my magicka version would’ve often wasted on casting Restoring Focus when it was still active. So basically, I can keep Vigor up most of the time while keeping up the same kind of pressure on the opponent that I can on the magicka version. Combined with Pale Order heals and potentially Extended Ritual, this makes me able to stay on the offensive against sustained damage way better.

- The damage of the stamina version is a decent bit lower. It’s still good, but is definitely lower. This is mostly because of the lack of the spell penetration passive from light armor. I believe the lightning staff is affected by spell resistance regardless of whether you’re a magicka or stamina character, and so the stamina version basically just loses 4884 penetration—which is a lot (probably about 10% damage). You also do only about 2/3 of the damage on Toppling Charge and Solar Barrage. Not a huge deal, since those aren’t a big component of your damage, but it’s not nothing. Overall, I did feel like there were times where I got people low that the magicka version would’ve killed and times I couldn’t really damage through healing on people that I think the magicka version could’ve.

The upshot is that I found the stamina version a bit more inconsistent. In BGs without bursty opponents, I was able to dominate in a way that the magicka version actually probably couldn’t (for instance, just had 26 kills and 2 deaths in a BG that I got put into about a third of the way through), because I could stay on the offensive almost constantly. But in BGs with bursty opponents, I’d basically just get burst down to low health and usually have no viable way of getting back from it, while the magicka version can really kite and heal after a burst to get back on its feet and turn things around, and that extra damage on the magicka version really allows you to turn the tables better. So, I think I probably like the magicka version better because it basically is never bad, but the stamina version has situations where it is stronger.

The key to playing it stamina is to use Vigor and dodge roll. I generally rotate Vigor in between 1-2 channels and keep myself up. The thing is squishy and cant take burst damage nevertheless, meaning you have to dodge roll to mitigate it.

Yes, agreed.

I think the primary benefit of doing a stam version of this is really Vigor. You want to keep a solid HoT up all the time, and there’s a significant benefit in having the ability to cast a HoT that also procs UU. In the middle of a fight, it essentially saves a global cooldown that a magicka version would use on Restoring Focus (when it often doesn’t actually need to be renewed). Saving that global cooldown is a big deal since that dead GCD to renew UU can be really unfortunate. Vigor also can be on the front bar, while the magicka version would have to have its primary HoT (Rapid Regen) on the back bar.

In theory, I suppose a magicka version could run Vigor too in order to avoid the GCD problem when in fights, but the Vigor would, of course, be a good bit weaker. It’s a trade off basically, because the magicka version gets a better burst heal, and also slightly more damage even if you run light armor on both (because Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge scale off magicka).

I’m actually inclined to try Vigor on a magicka version of this build. It wouldn’t be a good Vigor, but it would still be better than a dead GCD from renewing Restoring Focus when it doesn’t need to be renewed. And you’d still have access to an actually decent Honor the Dead and Rapid Regen too, as well as decent damage on Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge.

I run Vigor and Rapids. I believe Vigor heals for even more than Rapids do, but on a lower 35% crit chance.

RiskyChalice863

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

* DKs only get a buff on the last tick of the heavy attack (lightning), if you are using melee weapons/bow - it only buffs the base damage not counting the sets.

* Managing to keep up empower would work the best for Nightblades due to passives for the matters of damage.

* The easiest to manage it all is templar due to 10 second empower.

* Since Markarth you can also use weapon damage / max stamina for Lightning staff and vice-versa. Even though stacking damage provides minimal actual damage - I personally use weapon damage/stamina for Vigor and to increase dodge roll pool while on a Lightning staff.

* Using Pale Order on empowered Lightning attacks provides an average of 600-1200 heal ticks (single target) and additional if aoes are hit. + 1500-2000 plus 5Kish (final tick) or more if on Resto heavies.

Hello cyrodiil, let the nightmare begin.

On the first point, I don’t think it is true that Molten Armaments only buffs the last tick of the lightning heavy attack. That was true several patches ago, but it got changed and last I checked it was working.

That is a good point regarding the Templar empower uptime being really easy to keep up. I’ve always thought that the Magplar version of this build was the easiest to play even if the MagDK was the most powerful on paper. Toppling Charge is extremely good for this build since it’s a really easy source of off balance combined with a stun. Meanwhile, Restoring Focus is a really cheap/good stamina ability to proc Undaunted Unweaver. In contrast, MagDKs need 2-3 global cooldowns to do what Toppling Charge does in one cooldown, and they are stuck either using a really expensive stamina skill or a cheap one that wastes a global cooldown doing nothing useful. Adding the easy empower uptime from Solar Barrage may potentially make the Magplar the best option right now, even if the theoretical damage numbers from the MagDK are higher. To that end, I’m working on a concept for an updated Magplar version of the build.

Regarding using weapon damage and max stamina for lightning staff, it’s an interesting thought but I don’t think it’d be as good. The problem is that this build relies heavily on the sustain that heavy attacks provide. So, while a stamina-based version of the build could pump out as much or more damage, your heavy attacks wouldn’t be giving you the right resource back.

Regarding Pale Order, it’s a good thought and one I’d already been thinking about. I personally don’t have the item but I suspect it’d be really good for this build, assuming that it doesn’t get double hit by Battle Spirit. I typically play PvP in BGs, so I guess it might not be ideal if there were a really good healer on my team, but usually that isn’t the case.

Sonce you decided to use max weapon damage/ stamina for lighting staff, why not usespider cultisr. Provide 600 weapon/spell damage abilties inluding LA & HA.AND ANY other set you would like with it. Also, why not use power of light to proc unweaver instead of retoring rune? It is cheap and reduce target resistance, morph restoring rune bacl to magicka and be on top of your sustain if you need it, win-win.

I think you misread what I said. I have determined that using max weapon damage/ stamina for lightning staff is not good. The reason is that building into stamina with a lightning staff makes the sustain you get from lightning heavy attacks not nearly as useful.

Point of it is to use binding javelin for a ranged stun and vigor heals, combined with rapid regen. Having 32k stam and nearly 3k weapon damage heals for a ton, plus you got a pool to roll dodge. 22k magicka provides a decent Heal from Rapids also. I rarely run out of stamina in any of the fights.

Using toppling charge is a death sentence in any forms of pvp unless its a 1v1.

I just tried creating a stamina version of this build. Its strengths and weaknesses are actually different than I thought. Some thoughts about a Stamina Templar version of this below

- I had thought that sustain would much more of an issue on a stamina version, given that the lightning staff is regenerating magicka, not stamina. That hasn’t really turned out to be the case though. The reality is that you don’t actually need to use a lot of stamina on a stamina version of the build. I still use Solar Barrage of course, as well as Toppling Charge and Extended Ritual. My main stamina drain is basically just keeping Vigor up and blocking and doge rolling. So, even with pretty low stam recovery I didn’t find it an issue because I’m actually not using much stamina.

- I had thought that the stamina version would be bulkier. And it is true that it has got several thousand higher health and resistances. But it’s a little complicated on this front. Despite being bulkier on paper, it felt a lot harder to get back on my feet after a burst of damage comes in. This is because the burst healing is massively inferior. I tried running Rally on the back bar, but the weapon damage and stamina isn’t very high with this build, so Rally is basically a pretty mediocre single-use burst heal. I tried running damage shields instead (two of spike bone shield, radiant ward, defensive posture), but that felt pretty mediocre. The reality is that I basically can’t do what I did on the magicka version—which was respond to being taken to low health by burst healing, mist forming around a corner and burst healing a couple more times, etc. Once I was low on the stamina version I felt like there was no coming back from it the vast majority of the time. I guess the reality is that sometimes this build will stay alive from a burst that the magicka version would just die from upfront, but overall I felt like I was at the mercy of bursty builds like stamdens, nightblades, and magsorcs.

- That said, the build felt a lot better defensively against DoT-heavy opponents. The magicka version really struggled with this because of lack of healing over time. The stamina version has Vigor, though, and I can actually just use it to renew Undaunted Unweaver, and therefore keep Vigor heals up using a global cooldown that my magicka version would’ve often wasted on casting Restoring Focus when it was still active. So basically, I can keep Vigor up most of the time while keeping up the same kind of pressure on the opponent that I can on the magicka version. Combined with Pale Order heals and potentially Extended Ritual, this makes me able to stay on the offensive against sustained damage way better.

- The damage of the stamina version is a decent bit lower. It’s still good, but is definitely lower. This is mostly because of the lack of the spell penetration passive from light armor. I believe the lightning staff is affected by spell resistance regardless of whether you’re a magicka or stamina character, and so the stamina version basically just loses 4884 penetration—which is a lot (probably about 10% damage). You also do only about 2/3 of the damage on Toppling Charge and Solar Barrage. Not a huge deal, since those aren’t a big component of your damage, but it’s not nothing. Overall, I did feel like there were times where I got people low that the magicka version would’ve killed and times I couldn’t really damage through healing on people that I think the magicka version could’ve.

The upshot is that I found the stamina version a bit more inconsistent. In BGs without bursty opponents, I was able to dominate in a way that the magicka version actually probably couldn’t (for instance, just had 26 kills and 2 deaths in a BG that I got put into about a third of the way through), because I could stay on the offensive almost constantly. But in BGs with bursty opponents, I’d basically just get burst down to low health and usually have no viable way of getting back from it, while the magicka version can really kite and heal after a burst to get back on its feet and turn things around, and that extra damage on the magicka version really allows you to turn the tables better. So, I think I probably like the magicka version better because it basically is never bad, but the stamina version has situations where it is stronger.

The key to playing it stamina is to use Vigor and dodge roll. I generally rotate Vigor in between 1-2 channels and keep myself up. The thing is squishy and cant take burst damage nevertheless, meaning you have to dodge roll to mitigate it.

Yes, agreed.

I think the primary benefit of doing a stam version of this is really Vigor. You want to keep a solid HoT up all the time, and there’s a significant benefit in having the ability to cast a HoT that also procs UU. In the middle of a fight, it essentially saves a global cooldown that a magicka version would use on Restoring Focus (when it often doesn’t actually need to be renewed). Saving that global cooldown is a big deal since that dead GCD to renew UU can be really unfortunate. Vigor also can be on the front bar, while the magicka version would have to have its primary HoT (Rapid Regen) on the back bar.

In theory, I suppose a magicka version could run Vigor too in order to avoid the GCD problem when in fights, but the Vigor would, of course, be a good bit weaker. It’s a trade off basically, because the magicka version gets a better burst heal, and also slightly more damage even if you run light armor on both (because Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge scale off magicka).

I’m actually inclined to try Vigor on a magicka version of this build. It wouldn’t be a good Vigor, but it would still be better than a dead GCD from renewing Restoring Focus when it doesn’t need to be renewed. And you’d still have access to an actually decent Honor the Dead and Rapid Regen too, as well as decent damage on Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge.

I run Vigor and Rapids. I believe Vigor heals for even more than Rapids do, but on a lower 35% crit chance.

Yeah, I think I’ve come to the conclusion that it may be best to run Vigor and Rapid Regen on this build, regardless of what stat you are using. You then run Extended Ritual too. None of them are going to be strong—because your stats aren’t good—but the combination of them can be at least okay. Combining it with Pale Order and/or possibly a healing monster set like Chokethorn might be advisable, because the self heals are definitely a weakness of the build.

One conclusion I’ve definitely come to about this build, though, is that Resto ult is basically a must-have. Your lack of healing power basically makes it absolutely necessary to have a fight-reset ult because it is otherwise hard to get off the back foot when you’re taken to low health. I tried using Swarming Scion for these purposes and it is okay, but it’s really expensive, you get focused a ton when you use it, and the animation time when you enter and leave the ult is pretty bad for PvP. I find that you can have Resto ult up a lot, such that I actually usually have it up when I’m burst down to low health. It’s really good.

I’m finding Resto ult particularly useful while playing a version of this build where I put 64 points into health, because the healing output on that one is particularly bad. I still run HoTs of course, and on that version I’m also running health-based damage shields (so not everything about my defense is gimped by focusing on health), but Resto ult is so key to getting off the back foot.

RiskyChalice863

As an update, I’m really liking the Nord health-based Templar version of this build, with Maw of the Infernal as a monster set. The damage is actually still really good, the sustain is good enough that the low stat pools are not limiting whatsoever in terms of sustain, the build is actually hard to burst down, and Resto ult gives me a really great tool to reset a fight after someone fails to burst me.

I’ve not optimized this at all. The jewelry traits and armor enchants are pretty random. The jewelry and armor is all only purple or even blue. The back bar resto staff is just a random purple staff with a normal line of max magicka and a random trait. I don’t even have Bone Shield morphed yet. And, honestly, I’ve virtually never even been using potions (no real reason, just mostly that they’re expensive and I don’t need them for sustain).

But yet the results have been really good. My last several BGs (all solo queued) have gone like this:

1. 26 kills, 2 deaths, 3 assists, and 897k damage
2. 17 kills, 4 deaths, 11 assists, and 781k damage
3. 15 kills, 5 deaths, 16 assists, and 640k damage
4. 12 kills, 0 deaths, 18 assists, and 760k damage
5. 9 kills, 5 deaths, 23 assists, and 1.2 million damage
6. 24 kills, 6 deaths, 18 assists, and 1.0 million damage

In all but maybe the 5th game, I felt like I was really the dominant player in the game. And even in the 5th game I think I was arguably the best performing player in the match—it just was a really balanced game that no one dominated.

And I certainly don’t give these results to brag. I don’t even consider myself a particularly good ESO player. I’m just trying to showcase that a player who is experienced with how these UU/UI builds function can have really good results—even without things optimized. I think a good player could get similar results except with fewer deaths, as could someone with more optimized gear and whatnot.

fred4

My magden was doing nothing and decided to try this route as of today. This where the build stands:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301793

I was surprised to find Vigor have a half decent tooltip, thus using that to activate UU before bar swap. Then I light attack into Structured Entropy into a heavy attack. The light attack is actually slower than Entropy to reach the target, so it also gets buffed by Empower. Around 15K crit against 3M dummy.

This is only work in progress. I wanted a 1H+S back bar, but haven't got the shield. I wanted the Tri-Focus passive for lightning AOE, but got magicka-based blocking on the back bar in the bargain. Not something I really like. Running Blue Betty because of that. Also I don't rate Bird of Prey as I prefer the snare removal from RAT, but couldn't think of anything else to slot for now. Both skills passively contribute to damage.

This seems to work. Feels tanky and I completed vMA on it. Buffed damage seems good, however sustained damage in boss fights not so much. I was also getting CCd often and badly. You are so open on the heavy attack. While the high health and health-based heal help a lot, the CCs seemed to be macro-slices every time and take longer than normal to break free from. Can't say I liked that much. Escapist Poison is probably a must with this build.

I am a CP player. First impressions in IC are that I am hard to kill 1v1, but I have no feel for whether this does enough damage yet. When focused by 2 or more coordinated players, mag sustain is a problem, though this was before Blue Betty. I might die when focused on my other builds, say on my stam DK, but not by running out of resources as quickly as I do on this.

fred4

Mixed bag so far. Certain stamcro and stamden builds are still OP. This magden heavy attack build seems viable, even quite good, but no more than that. Gripping Shards didn't do it for me. Arctic Blast moved there and back bar has either Trellis or Lotus Blossom. That means I may get rid of Inner Light now. Still working on skills.

RiskyChalice863

fred4 wrote: »

My magden was doing nothing and decided to try this route as of today. This where the build stands:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301793

I was surprised to find Vigor have a half decent tooltip, thus using that to activate UU before bar swap. Then I light attack into Structured Entropy into a heavy attack. The light attack is actually slower than Entropy to reach the target, so it also gets buffed by Empower. Around 15K crit against 3M dummy.

This is only work in progress. I wanted a 1H+S back bar, but haven't got the shield. I wanted the Tri-Focus passive for lightning AOE, but got magicka-based blocking on the back bar in the bargain. Not something I really like. Running Blue Betty because of that. Also I don't rate Bird of Prey as I prefer the snare removal from RAT, but couldn't think of anything else to slot for now. Both skills passively contribute to damage.

This seems to work. Feels tanky and I completed vMA on it. Buffed damage seems good, however sustained damage in boss fights not so much. I was also getting CCd often and badly. You are so open on the heavy attack. While the high health and health-based heal help a lot, the CCs seemed to be macro-slices every time and take longer than normal to break free from. Can't say I liked that much. Escapist Poison is probably a must with this build.

I am a CP player. First impressions in IC are that I am hard to kill 1v1, but I have no feel for whether this does enough damage yet. When focused by 2 or more coordinated players, mag sustain is a problem, though this was before Blue Betty. I might die when focused on my other builds, say on my stam DK, but not by running out of resources as quickly as I do on this.

I think you’re probably losing a lot of potential damage by not running Birds. IMO the biggest advantage that a Warden version of this has is that it can set someone off balance from range. That off balance leads to a massive 70% damage boost on your heavy attacks. Setting people off balance also helps with magicka sustain, because you get more magicka return from heavy attacking an off balance opponent. It also functions as a ranged stun, because your heavy attack will stun off balance opponents.

If you’re not utilizing that, then the Warden version is going to lack in damage compared to other versions. A DK could get a 50% boost from Molten Armaments, a Templar can get a permanent 40% boost from Empower (as opposed to basically just Empower on one heavy attack every time you use Structured Entropy), and even a Necromancer version can get 15% extra heavy attack damage from their extra DoT damage passive. What you’ve got on the Warden is basically just an extra 9% from the Animal Companions passive. The Warden version can make up for this by having better self-healing and by being able to set off balance at range and therefore be able to actually do more damage at range than those other builds could (or at least to do so when off balance isn’t on cooldown).

RiskyChalice863

One thing I guess I’m curious about here is running Power of the Light. In the middle of a fight, it could proc UU, and buff all your damage with more penetration, while providing a mini-burst at the end. The burst wouldn’t be huge but, if I’m understanding how the copied-damage mechanic works (which I may not be), I don’t think you could really reach the copied-damage cap in no-CP without spending the whole time free firing heavy attacks on a non-blocking, off balance opponent. And they’re probably dead already if that’s the case, so the copied-damage cap probably isn’t a huge deal in no-CP.

The point here is basically that it’s good for a Templar to have two stamina abilities: (1) Restoring Focus, because it is a good ability and allows you to really cheaply proc UU; and (2) some sort of stamina ability that’ll provide value in the middle of a fight if you need to re-proc UU and Restoring Focus hasn’t expired (basically, using Restoring Focus every 10 seconds leads to dead GCD’s half the time, so you ideally want another stamina ability that will be more useful in those situations). There are some options for this. I’ve tried Bone Shield and Resolving Vigor, and both are solid options. Using Power of the Light in those scenarios would sacrifice some defense, but give you a decent bit more damage and would cost less stamina than Vigor or Bone Shield.

fred4

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I think you’re probably losing a lot of potential damage by not running Birds. IMO the biggest advantage that a Warden version of this has is that it can set someone off balance from range. That off balance leads to a massive 70% damage boost on your heavy attacks. Setting people off balance also helps with magicka sustain, because you get more magicka return from heavy attacking an off balance opponent. It also functions as a ranged stun, because your heavy attack will stun off balance opponents.

If you’re not utilizing that, then the Warden version is going to lack in damage compared to other versions. A DK could get a 50% boost from Molten Armaments, a Templar can get a permanent 40% boost from Empower (as opposed to basically just Empower on one heavy attack every time you use Structured Entropy), and even a Necromancer version can get 15% extra heavy attack damage from their extra DoT damage passive. What you’ve got on the Warden is basically just an extra 9% from the Animal Companions passive. The Warden version can make up for this by having better self-healing and by being able to set off balance at range and therefore be able to actually do more damage at range than those other builds could (or at least to do so when off balance isn’t on cooldown).

Thanks! I was trying to look where that 70% damage boost is coming from, then I forgot about it. Is this a base game mechanic? I only see the +10% Exploiter passive from CP. I'm looking in the wrong place, right?

fred4

Build revised, same link: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301793

ArchMikem

The idea of doing a ton of damage by simply Heavy Attacking everything is definitely alluring...

I just can't get over the feeling of being pigeon holed. I'm sure this build has no Crit Chance whatsoever right? That would make my Khajiit's passive useless.

RiskyChalice863

fred4 wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I think you’re probably losing a lot of potential damage by not running Birds. IMO the biggest advantage that a Warden version of this has is that it can set someone off balance from range. That off balance leads to a massive 70% damage boost on your heavy attacks. Setting people off balance also helps with magicka sustain, because you get more magicka return from heavy attacking an off balance opponent. It also functions as a ranged stun, because your heavy attack will stun off balance opponents.

If you’re not utilizing that, then the Warden version is going to lack in damage compared to other versions. A DK could get a 50% boost from Molten Armaments, a Templar can get a permanent 40% boost from Empower (as opposed to basically just Empower on one heavy attack every time you use Structured Entropy), and even a Necromancer version can get 15% extra heavy attack damage from their extra DoT damage passive. What you’ve got on the Warden is basically just an extra 9% from the Animal Companions passive. The Warden version can make up for this by having better self-healing and by being able to set off balance at range and therefore be able to actually do more damage at range than those other builds could (or at least to do so when off balance isn’t on cooldown).

Thanks! I was trying to look where that 70% damage boost is coming from, then I forgot about it. Is this a base game mechanic? I only see the +10% Exploiter passive from CP. I'm looking in the wrong place, right?

The 70% is basically just a general game mechanic that doesn’t require you to put any points anywhere. By default, heavy attacks have a 70% damage boost when on an off balance opponent. The Exploiter passive simply adds another 10% to that, so that it’s an 80% damage boost.

Since there’s a cooldown on off balance, it can’t be up on an opponent permanently, but it does give you a 7 second window in which you do quite a lot more damage. And on a Warden you can initiate that burst window *from range* by setting them off balance with the cliff racer. And since heavy attacks stun off balance opponents, your combo is basically: (1) proc UU with a stamina ability of your choice (I use Growing Swarm, but other options include Vigor and Spiked Bone Shield); (2) use Cliff Racer to proc UI and set them off balance; (3) do a heavy attack that will do tons of damage since they’re off balance AND stun them; and (4) keep heavy attacking them while they’re stunned. You could theoretically get even more peak damage by adding Structured Entropy there after Cliff Racer, but the Empower only really would last long enough for one heavy attack or so, so I’m not sure whether it’s worth it (it’s not something I’ve tested).

I prefer the Templar version of this build because they have +40% damage for 10 seconds from empower on Solar Barrage on top of being able to set people off balance at will. However, the Templar needs to get in close to set off balance, and the Warden has much better self healing (because you’ve got heals that don’t depend on magicka or spell damage—including Arctic Blast, Lotus Blossom, Leeching Vines, and heals from using animal companions skills). So the Warden basically can be tankier and able to deal its peak damage from range, but the Templar’s peak damage is higher. It’s a trade-off.

RiskyChalice863

ArchMikem wrote: »

The idea of doing a ton of damage by simply Heavy Attacking everything is definitely alluring...

I just can't get over the feeling of being pigeon holed. I'm sure this build has no Crit Chance whatsoever right? That would make my Khajiit's passive useless.

No, actually I don’t run Malacath on this. I don’t actually think Malacath is that great on it to be honest. This is because Malacath is an additive bonus, not a multiplicative bonus, and you have so many other percent damage bonuses that it dilutes the overall effect of Malacath. So, for example, if I set someone off balance on the Templar version of this build in no-CP, I will have +110% damage on my heavy attacks (+70% from off balance, and +40% from empower). Malacath would simply make that +135%. And that’s actually only a 12% damage boost (because 2.35/2.10 = 1.12). I slot Inner Light on this build and have a 35.7% crit chance with 60% crit damage in no-CP. So if someone’s crit resistance is only less than or equal to 26% (which still involves having some impen gear), I’ll actually do more damage to an off balance opponent *without* Malacath. If off balance isn’t up on the opponent, then Malacath provides a 17.8% damage boost, and Malacath will add damage even on someone who doesn’t have any impen gear. So overall, Malacath probably would add a bit more sustained damage (at least in No-CP; CP has more additive damage bonuses so Malacath scales even worse), but not really any extra peak damage. And since you do give up something by going Malacath (for instance, might need to give up a 2pc monster set bonus, or Pale Order heals, etc.), I’ve not really considered it to clearly be a good option.

If you are Khajiit, then Malacath is even less attractive. If an opponent is off balance, then a Khajiit with this build would do more damage without Malacath, even against someone in full impen gear. And even if they aren’t off balance, the Khajiit would do the same damage without Malacath, unless the person had impen gear on. And I’ll note that Khajiit is actually a good race for this build. That’s because magicka and spell damage scale quite badly in terms of damage on this build (since they don’t affect the UU and UI damage), while penetration and crits scale well (since they do affect the UU and UI damage). So the Khajiit’s crit damage bonus is actually perhaps the best racial bonus for this build in terms of sheer damage.

EDIT: I guess the key underlying premise to understand what I’m saying above is that the extra damage provided by Undaunted Unweaver and Undaunted Infiltrator does not function like proc damage that cannot crit. Rather, it adds to the heavy attack damage itself and therefore the damage from it is affected by crits. Combined with the fact that you have huge % damage bonuses already, it makes Malacath not necessarily that attractive. I don’t think it would be *bad* but it’s definitely not a requirement for the build, and I’m not using it.

fred4

Very personal assessment coming up:

After being zerged down repeatedly by stragglers leading me back to their group when I couldn't clinch the deal fast enough, I have to say this class is still awful for my purposes in IC. Despite the speed that I added it remains prone to being LoSd. Give me a nightblade or a sorc any day. Even my DK is more likely to catch someone with Leap and my magplar has a gap closer that instantly stuns, not some random BS stun from Arctic Blast or at the end of a heavy channel.

While I am not sure how much more effective my other classes are - e.g. this magden is definitely viable and has scored kills - I know they feel more involving than this. Magden remains a cumbersome, buff-heavy class. Worst of all this build somehow appears to cause a disproportionate amount of prolonged, unbreakable CCs. I'm not talking low stamina. I'm talking lying flat on the ground, slowly getting up and still having to CC break afterwards, stuff like that. The high health makes it so this usually isn't fatal, but it feels awful to play.

I will probably still keep playing this for a while, because it's a neat and unique build. Maybe I'll get better with it or maybe I'll switch to another class.

fred4

I agree that Structured Entropy is questionable. It mainly works in my build on the first cast, because that now goes Cutting Dive -> bar swap -> light attack -> Entropy -> heavy attack. E.g. I am able to fit in a light attack into that GCD and, because Entropy appears to be instant, but the light attack takes time, the light attack is actually empowered too. I tested that on a target skeleton. Entropy also helps to proc Skoria in my build.

RiskyChalice863

fred4 wrote: »

Very personal assessment coming up:

After being zerged down repeatedly by stragglers leading me back to their group when I couldn't clinch the deal fast enough, I have to say this class is still awful for my purposes in IC. Despite the speed that I added it remains prone to being LoSd. Give me a nightblade or a sorc any day. Even my DK is more likely to catch someone with Leap and my magplar has a gap closer that instantly stuns, not some random BS stun from Arctic Blast or at the end of a heavy channel.

While I am not sure how much more effective my other classes are - e.g. this magden is definitely viable and has scored kills - I know they feel more involving than this. Magden remains a cumbersome, buff-heavy class. Worst of all this build somehow appears to cause a disproportionate amount of prolonged, unbreakable CCs. I'm not talking low stamina. I'm talking lying flat on the ground, slowly getting up and still having to CC break afterwards, stuff like that. The high health makes it so this usually isn't fatal, but it feels awful to play.

I will probably still keep playing this for a while, because it's a neat and unique build. Maybe I'll get better with it or maybe I'll switch to another class.

I’m not sure what’s going on for you with the unbreakable CC’s. I’ve not really had that problem on this build. At least not any more than I do on other builds. I pretty much only play BG’s though (at least in terms of PvP), so I can’t really speak to whether this issue exists in Cyrodiil or IC.

RiskyChalice863

I’d been doing some PvE on this build using the Pale Order ring and the Maelstrom lightning staff, and it seems really good for solo PvE. I fought a bunch of world bosses with it and didn’t come across any that gave me any difficulty. It was also good for the Maelstrom Arena. It’s not the absolute best for pure DPS on a group dungeon boss, but it’s got a ton of AOE damage, seems like good enough single target DPS to not be a liability in PUGs, and the survivability on it is great, so it’s solid there too. In fact, with this build, I had my easiest completion ever on a dungeon that I typically find is difficult to PUG on (Moon Hunter Keep), so I was actually pretty pleased with it.

I then went back to PvP on it again (switching out the Pale Order ring and Maelstrom staff). I decided to move the build up to Level 3 vampire, mostly so that I could get the Undeath passive. And I finally was able to upgrade Bone Shield to Spiked Bone Shield. My first game was a 32 kill game. This build is strong in BGs.

I find the Nord health-based Templar version in 5 light armor with Maw of the Infernal and multiple stamina recovery glyphs to probably be the strongest. The damage against groups or single targets are both great. On defense I have enough health that it’s hard to burst me down and I feel like I always have resto ult up to reset a fight when someone does get me low with a burst. I also never find myself without the stamina to break free. My healing over time is lacking I suppose (I run Rapid Regen and Extended Ritual, but my stats are low), but in the middle of fights I use Spiked Bone Shield a lot to proc UU anyways, so that absorbs a lot of damage, and I do have the best purge in the game and a great escape ability (Elusive Mist) if things get dicey. Meanwhile, sustain on this build is basically as good as it can possibly be. I don’t really even bother using potions and still essentially never run out of resources.

You could theoretically squeeze more health and more healing over time out of the build by running the Pale Order ring with UI on the backbar and a heavy Trainee chest piece. From a pure numbers perspective, that is a better version of the build. But I find it annoying to have to backbar the UI proc and therefore hav to constantly switch bars to keep those procs up, so I personally prefer not doing that. You could also get the Pale Order ring and heavy Trainee piece without back-barring one of the procs, but it would require losing the monster set entirely. That’s a valid option, but I think I’d prefer the extra damage of Maw of the Infernal over the extra survivability of Pale Order and a Trainee piece (though that is all a bit academic for me, since I don’t have a UI lightning staff—only a UU one—so I can’t actually run that variant with the gear I have).

RiskyChalice863

I’m starting to think maybe Radiant Oppression might be a good ability to use on this build.

You have low stats, so Radiant Oppression isn’t super strong, and your heavy attacks do so much damage that I had thought there was no point in using Radiant Oppression, since basically the jesus beam damage in execute is similar to the heavy attack damage. But one weakness this build has is that when UU and UI and Empower aren’t triggered, you basically do almost no damage. Normally that’s not a problem since you just trigger them every 10 seconds. But there are times where you get someone low right as the UU and UI procs go off. In that scenario, you basically usually can’t finish the person off because you start to do almost no damage and have to ease the pressure on the opponent by re-triggering the sets. Radiant Oppression would allow you to at least keep the damage up in that situation in order to finish the kill.

The only thing on the front bar it could be worth swapping out is probably Inner Light, if you are running spell crit pots. The 5% additional magicka is nice but doesn’t add very much to the build by itself since the set damage doesn’t scale with magicka. And spell crit pots would get you major prophecy on the back bar too, which would be good. In that scenario, Radiant Oppression might be worth slotting.

Waffennacht

What about NB?

Has access to off balance and stun via Concealed weapon
Has Empower via degeneration and mage guild passives
Can also run those sets

I mean shouldn't be too different than the magplar right?

RiskyChalice863

Waffennacht wrote: »

What about NB?

Has access to off balance and stun via Concealed weapon
Has Empower via degeneration and mage guild passives
Can also run those sets

I mean shouldn't be too different than the magplar right?

I have played a NB version of this in the past, and it worked fine. As you mentioned Concealed Weapon is good for this build, since it also is a stun and off balance in one ability.

That said, I think it has lost some value relative to other classes now, given the changes to Empower. Basically, before, it used to be that Molten Armaments made DKs do the most damage with this build, but Templars and NB’s had the relative advantage of being able to stun and set off balance with one button. I preferred the Templar version to the NB version, mostly because setting off balance was still kind of a two-step process requiring cloak. But it was competitive with the Templar version, and had the advantage of being able to use cloak to get away from bad situations. With the changes to Empower, though, I find it hard to justify using NB over Templar for this. Both classes have a stun + off balance ability, but the Templar’s is still easier to apply (doesn’t require flanking), and they have access to 10 seconds of Empower. In theory, NBs can also get Empower using a Mage’s Guild ability, but they’d have to reapply it every 3 seconds instead of every 10 seconds. Reapplying it every 3 seconds would be a pretty big damage loss, since your heavy attacks will do a ton more damage than Degeneration and if you’re fighting only one person some of your Degens will actually essentially be an otherwise wasted cooldown since you’ll just be refreshing a DoT that hasn’t ended yet. That damage loss would be particularly important when someone is off balance. You want to put as much pressure as possible during the period in which someone is off balance, since you have such a huge damage spike. Having to reapply Empower a couple times during that time period would be a significant loss during your semi-burst window, I think. Another important aspect of this is that Solar Barrage can be used without a target. So, on a Templar, you can pre-buff with UU, UI, and Empower before you actually are in LOS or in range of someone. That means you could start your fully-buffed heavy attacks immediately. On a NB, you’d need to cast Degeneration first, which would be a damage loss.

That said, even if I think the Templar version is strictly superior, I do think one could make a Nightblade version of the build work. You could do Cloak —> Leeching Strikes —> Concealed Weapon —> Degeneration —> Heavy Attacks and it should be pretty effective. And one could maybe add more magicka/spell damage to a NB build (losing some health and resistances) due to having cloak and shade for defense. That wouldn’t add a whole lot more damage, but it’d add a little bit and could make your healing a lot better.

DeHei

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I’ve continued having more and more success with this build on my Magplar by the way, including a BG that ranked as probably my most dominant ever. Specifically, I just had a BG with 23 kills, 20 assists, and 1 death. I had another game just before that where I had second most kills in the server, most assists (and overall participated in the most kills), and died zero times while everyone else in the server died multiple times. I’ve also had multiple other pretty good games (things like 2nd or 3rd most kills and 2nd or 3rd most damage in the server, and a few deaths but not a ton, even on losing teams).

There are players for whom the above types of games are possible with essentially any build because they’re just really good. But I want to emphasize that I’m decent but definitely not a great player. The results I’m getting with this build are, for me, very good. I don’t know if it would scale up to be very good for extremely good players. It’s a relatively easy build to get the most out of, but maybe its ceiling isn’t super high. Also, I do wonder if the lack of mobility while channeling would leave one particularly vulnerable in high MMR games. It’d certainly make burst combos a bit easier to land on you.

For me, though, the combination of burst damage on single targets, AOE dot damage, extremely good sustain, and great survivability is just extremely good. And I think the survivability will get even better once I go vampire and get Elusive Mist.

Finally, I’ll note that I’ve tried out dropping Purifying Light and Radiant Oppression and slotting two dots (reflective light and soul splitting trap at the moment, but Structured Entropy is probably even better—I just don’t have it on this character yet). The results have improved thus far. The problem with Radiant Oppression for me was that it’s just really buggy in terms of targeting. It’ll often target someone at like a 45 degree angle from me when I’ve got the cursor directly on someone else who is quite low. And if someone is off balance, heavy attacks don’t do much less damage anyways, and if it targets the wrong person, there’s AOE so they die anyways. I don’t love taking Purifying Light off the bar, but the dots just seem stronger.

Purifying Light just deals poor damage currently. Radiant Oppression dont will be benefitted from your major damage source in that setup - your HAs!
So here for sure you have 2 options you should change. I played a build like that only with the vMSA lightningstaff and it worked well in the past. I did my main damage via Reflective Light and Degeneration together with Wall of elements, Blazing Spear and Ritual of Retribution. WIth that i placed a huge aoe damage zone and dots to bring opponents down. Since Ritual of Retribution dont has the heal effect anymore, that build feeled much weaker, cause i need to switch on the backbar very often to survive and cant go to make pressure against strong opponents. At all i stopped playing like that, but maybe it will be optional in future again

RiskyChalice863

DeHei wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I’ve continued having more and more success with this build on my Magplar by the way, including a BG that ranked as probably my most dominant ever. Specifically, I just had a BG with 23 kills, 20 assists, and 1 death. I had another game just before that where I had second most kills in the server, most assists (and overall participated in the most kills), and died zero times while everyone else in the server died multiple times. I’ve also had multiple other pretty good games (things like 2nd or 3rd most kills and 2nd or 3rd most damage in the server, and a few deaths but not a ton, even on losing teams).

There are players for whom the above types of games are possible with essentially any build because they’re just really good. But I want to emphasize that I’m decent but definitely not a great player. The results I’m getting with this build are, for me, very good. I don’t know if it would scale up to be very good for extremely good players. It’s a relatively easy build to get the most out of, but maybe its ceiling isn’t super high. Also, I do wonder if the lack of mobility while channeling would leave one particularly vulnerable in high MMR games. It’d certainly make burst combos a bit easier to land on you.

For me, though, the combination of burst damage on single targets, AOE dot damage, extremely good sustain, and great survivability is just extremely good. And I think the survivability will get even better once I go vampire and get Elusive Mist.

Finally, I’ll note that I’ve tried out dropping Purifying Light and Radiant Oppression and slotting two dots (reflective light and soul splitting trap at the moment, but Structured Entropy is probably even better—I just don’t have it on this character yet). The results have improved thus far. The problem with Radiant Oppression for me was that it’s just really buggy in terms of targeting. It’ll often target someone at like a 45 degree angle from me when I’ve got the cursor directly on someone else who is quite low. And if someone is off balance, heavy attacks don’t do much less damage anyways, and if it targets the wrong person, there’s AOE so they die anyways. I don’t love taking Purifying Light off the bar, but the dots just seem stronger.

Purifying Light just deals poor damage currently. Radiant Oppression dont will be benefitted from your major damage source in that setup - your HAs!
So here for sure you have 2 options you should change. I played a build like that only with the vMSA lightningstaff and it worked well in the past. I did my main damage via Reflective Light and Degeneration together with Wall of elements, Blazing Spear and Ritual of Retribution. WIth that i placed a huge aoe damage zone and dots to bring opponents down. Since Ritual of Retribution dont has the heal effect anymore, that build feeled much weaker, cause i need to switch on the backbar very often to survive and cant go to make pressure against strong opponents. At all i stopped playing like that, but maybe it will be optional in future again

The post you quoted was from a while ago, back when different abilities were strong and also when my understanding of the build was not quite as good as it is now. The version of this I currently run is a Nord Templar with 64 points into health, with Maw of the Infernal.

The skills I currently use on it are as follows:

Front Bar: Restoring Focus, Inner Light, Spiked Bone Shield, Toppling Charge, Solar Barrage, Swarming Scion
Back Bar: Extended Ritual, Honor the Dead, Rapid Regeneration, Elusive Mist, [Flex Spot], Life Giver

I switch out that flex spot a lot. Some things I’ve tried have been: Degeneration, Inner Light, Living Dark, Race Against Time, Channeled Acceleration, Radiant Ward. Some other options I might try are Razor Caltrops, Power of the Light, Quick Siphon, and Repentance. So far, Living Dark has probably been the best, but it’s not that strong on the build and I don’t us it a lot. RaT or Channeled Acceleration is almost certainly the play in Capture the Relic or Chaosball—where having speed is a huge advantage.

Anyways, Restoring Focus is perfect for cheaply proccing UU before a fight. Spiked Bone Shield is great because I’ve got a ton of health so the damage shield is pretty big, and it procs UU as well. Solar Barrage gives me a 40% damage boost from Empower and procs UI before a fight. Toppling Charge stuns And gets me a 70% damage boost from off balance. Extended Ritual is great since the HoTs are lacking on a health-based build, so being able to purge away lots of DoTs is sometimes the only way to stay alive. Honor the Dead and Rapid Regen aren’t very strong heals on this build but I do need some healing obviously. Elusive Mist gets me out of bad situations. Life Giver is really crucial to the build because it is pretty cheap and resets fights where someone got me low (when I’d otherwise not always have the healing power to get back off the back foot). Swarming Scion performs the same function, it just costs more but also adds a load of damage so it’s great when I’ve got the ultimate for it.