Multi-crafting Outcomes for Refining Raw Materials

Shadowshire

In my experience so far, refining multiple sets of 10 with one key-press produces fewer crafting materials than refining just 10 units per key-press. For example, when I refined 100 units of Platinum Dust, the outcome was 1 Iridium Grain and about 30 ounces of Platinum. In contrast, when I refine 10 units of Platinum Dust 10 times, the number of Grains for the Quality and Trait materials are significantly higher for those 100 units. Out of 10 Refine key-presses for sets of 10 units, usually at least 5 -7 key-presses produce one or more Grains of the Quality and/or Trait materials. Multi-craft refining for ore, wood, and fiber also produces fewer units of their respective Quality, Trait and Style materials.*

Unfortunately, with respect to Jewelry, in particular: Zircon and Chromium grains are too scarce. It seems that the designer forgot that the Refining outcome is one or two Grains of the metal, which must be further refined in sets of 10 to produce one plating. Then 3 Zircon platings, if not also 4 Chromium platings, are required to craft the jewelry piece with the desired quality. (It was even worse before ZOS reduced the number of Chromium platings required from 8 to 4.)

Introducing Jewelry Master Crafting Writs which require jewelry of Superior quality is not a suitable alternative. The Grains for platings which are required to make Superior quality Jewelry are only somewhat more numerous than the Grains required to also make the platings for Epic and Legendary quality jewelry. Using them to satisfy low-value Sealed Master Crafting Writs for Superior jewelry simply makes the platings unavailable for any Epic and/or Legendary Sealed Master Crafting Writs which might happen to be obtained.

If ZOS does not have a better way to do it, then all they need to do is search the Guild Stores for the prices at which the various platings are offered for sale. They accurately reflect the respective scarcities of the materials and of the platings refined from them, relative to prospective demand for them.

It is even more interesting that very few crafted necklaces and rings are offered for sale to complement a set of crafted gear. On the face of it, players would rather craft jewelry to satisfy Sealed Master Writs in exchange for vouchers, than attempt to sell necklaces or rings which are not intended for characters to de-construct in order to learn the associated Trait of the piece.
____________
* Comparison of multi-crafting outcomes to single-crafting outcomes implies that when the button is set to "Max", the software accesses the Pseudorandom Number Generator (PNG) for one outcome and uses that to read a "multi-craft" table for the results. It does not access the PNG once for each set of 10 units and read the single-set table for the outcome, for each of the respective sets of 10 units. Given the quick-and-dirty programming practices which have become rather apparent during the almost 5 years that I've played TESO, I doubt that any particular analysis was done to assure that, at the least, multi-crafting will ordinarily produce the same profile of materials that single-crafting does. The designers and programmers are too hurriedly trying to get it done, to get it done right. Then seldom will they do it over.

Taleof2Cities

Do you mind sharing the stack quantities for your bulk refining, @Shadowshire?

Unless you’re refining stacks in the thousands, I wouldn’t rely too much on your early data findings.

ZOS did increase the jewelry uprgrade mats for completing jewelry crafting writs. Are you doing those to supplement your refining activities?

Jewelry crafting players aren’t going to make crafted jewelry for general sale ... since it’s so expensive. Jewelry crafters will make crafted jewelry to order upon request.

Finally, most importantly, remember the original premise of why upgrade materials are so rare: Jewelry upgrades and crafting should not be a substitute for players running challenging content. If upgrades were easy, then players would only run normal content (or just buy in the guild stores). All they have to do is upgrade their jewelry to gold ... which bypasses doing any difficult content.

VaranisArano

Honestly, you can't draw any statistically significant conclusions from comparing "100 units" no matter how you test the refining methods.

So I'm also going to second the request to actually provide your data totals.


The last time I tested a refining method, I did 5000 mats for each method, and while that was enough to convince me the method was bunk, I'd want even more mats to test before I called it confirmed.

(For anyone interested, I was testing a guildmate's suggestion that alternating refining 200 rubedite with 200 of a lower tier mat would get more gold mats than just refining a whole bunch of the rubedite separately. As tested with 5000 raw mats for both groups, it did not make a significant difference.)

CantFixIr

I have heard many guild mates complaining that they are getting significantly fewer gold items when refining with the multi craft option.

CantFixIr

OK I just got 3 rosin for 400+ rough pieces of ruby ash. Complete rubbish. Using the multicraft piece of rubbish. Not even by choice. I wanted to go ten by ten but it defaulted to max after the first go.

CantFixIr

So now to refine ten by ten, which is clearly the only way to get a reasonable amount of gold ingredients, instead of having to repeatedly press R you have to repeatedly press R plus click on min. Such a stupid way to go.

VaranisArano

CantFixIr wrote: »

I have heard many guild mates complaining that they are getting significantly fewer gold items when refining with the multi craft option.

Sorry. Anecdotes arent data.

One of the reasons we keep asking for actual data is that if we want to show ZOS theres a problem, we have to actually prove it. The folks who tested it on PTS and on Live who are saying its the same as it always was tested with over 10K mats, not a couple hundred, when they've cited their data on the other threads.


If you think there's an issue with refining smaller amounts, say, that Multicraft isnt working right in increments of 100 mats, you'd need to test that.

You need to refine two sample sets of probably 5 to 10K mats in batches of 100 using both methods and compare your drop rates to see if there are statiscally significant discrepancies or deviations beyond the margin of error.

tmbrinks

CantFixIr wrote: »

OK I just got 3 rosin for 400+ rough pieces of ruby ash. Complete rubbish. Using the multicraft piece of rubbish. Not even by choice. I wanted to go ten by ten but it defaulted to max after the first go.

The accepted rate for years has been 1 gold mat per 200 materials... and you're complaining about getting 3 in 400?

tmbrinks

Shadowshire wrote: »

In my experience so far, refining multiple sets of 10 with one key-press produces fewer crafting materials than refining just 10 units per key-press. For example, when I refined 100 units of Platinum Dust, the outcome was 1 Iridium Grain and about 30 ounces of Platinum. In contrast, when I refine 10 units of Platinum Dust 10 times, the number of Grains for the Quality and Trait materials are significantly higher for those 100 units. Out of 10 Refine key-presses for sets of 10 units, usually at least 5 -7 key-presses produce one or more Grains of the Quality and/or Trait materials. Multi-craft refining for ore, wood, and fiber also produces fewer units of their respective Quality, Trait and Style materials.*

Unfortunately, with respect to Jewelry, in particular: Zircon and Chromium grains are too scarce. It seems that the designer forgot that the Refining outcome is one or two Grains of the metal, which must be further refined in sets of 10 to produce one plating. Then 3 Zircon platings, if not also 4 Chromium platings, are required to craft the jewelry piece with the desired quality. (It was even worse before ZOS reduced the number of Chromium platings required from 8 to 4.)

Introducing Jewelry Master Crafting Writs which require jewelry of Superior quality is not a suitable alternative. The Grains for platings which are required to make Superior quality Jewelry are only somewhat more numerous than the Grains required to also make the platings for Epic and Legendary quality jewelry. Using them to satisfy low-value Sealed Master Crafting Writs for Superior jewelry simply makes the platings unavailable for any Epic and/or Legendary Sealed Master Crafting Writs which might happen to be obtained.

If ZOS does not have a better way to do it, then all they need to do is search the Guild Stores for the prices at which the various platings are offered for sale. They accurately reflect the respective scarcities of the materials and of the platings refined from them, relative to prospective demand for them.

It is even more interesting that very few crafted necklaces and rings are offered for sale to complement a set of crafted gear. On the face of it, players would rather craft jewelry to satisfy Sealed Master Writs in exchange for vouchers, than attempt to sell necklaces or rings which are not intended for characters to de-construct in order to learn the associated Trait of the piece.
____________
* Comparison of multi-crafting outcomes to single-crafting outcomes implies that when the button is set to "Max", the software accesses the Pseudorandom Number Generator (PNG) for one outcome and uses that to read a "multi-craft" table for the results. It does not access the PNG once for each set of 10 units and read the single-set table for the outcome, for each of the respective sets of 10 units. Given the quick-and-dirty programming practices which have become rather apparent during the almost 5 years that I've played TESO, I doubt that any particular analysis was done to assure that, at the least, multi-crafting will ordinarily produce the same profile of materials that single-crafting does. The designers and programmers are too hurriedly trying to get it done, to get it done right. Then seldom will they do it over.

It absolutely looks at each refine as an individual outcome. Otherwise the dozens of people who have confirmed that the new multicraft is working as intended would not have gotten the results they have.

It is currently IMPOSSIBLE to get more than one level of improvement material in a single refine. (i.e. you can't get a dreugh wax AND an elegant lining in the same refine). How then do you explain all the people who have done a bulk refine of 10k materials who have received all four levels of improvement materials in a single refine.

If your hypothesis is true, those results are literally impossible. Thus, your hypothesis is false.

I have personally tested it on both PTS AND on LIVE. I've posted my results. I've shared the data. Statistically significant data. I've yet to see statistically significant data from others. Just small sample sizes, which for rare events (which getting improvement materials is), means they are extremely sensitive.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

I just refined 1.1K platinum grains accidentally all at once. ZOS really needs to change the darn default. My results were 8 chromium and 8 zircon grains that is higher than the historical average I've seen which is typically some combination of both types for a grand total of around 5 - 8 grains. I have had similar luck in the past so nothing appears to have changed dramatically for me with the most recent patch. Whether my luck will hold out I won't know for another week or two as I need to pickup enough platinum grains for another run.

Edit: I went ahead and cleared out my bag with the bulk refine for the other crafts and the drops I got for gold and purple were in line with what I've historically gotten.

Heatnix90

@tmbrinks is honestly the only person I'll believe regarding the drop rates for tempers since they have hard, solid data to back up their arguments. Everyone else is just posting wild theories and hypotheses and until they post some evidence that's all it'll be.

Shadowshire

@Taleof2Cities @VaranisArano

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Do you mind sharing the stack quantities for your bulk refining, @Shadowshire?

Unless you’re refining stacks in the thousands, I wouldn’t rely too much on your early data findings.

Not long after Jewelry Crafting was introduced, I bought 6000 Platinum Dust at a Guild auction. The percentage yields from Refining it were far less than the number of grains (?) in the following table, shown by the link that has been shared during this and/or other discussions:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yQDUjYNQVsIFl0ktkbkSlfYPkzP6pgCOTMQ-qCuzfaI/edit#gid=1078240196

Frankly, the outcome of the exercise just was not worth either the Gold Pieces which I bid for it, or the time and effort to refine them.

Ordinarily, I accumulate at least 300 - 600 units of Platinum Dust before I refine them. The main source is from Jewelry Crafting Surveys, of course -- with four characters (not forty), I receive about 5 - 8 per week. (With respect to "farming" I spend more time and effort collecting Herbs -- an enterprise with challenges and problems all of its own.)

In my humble opinion, ZOS has simply chosen to make Jewelry quality materials so rare that only players who want to do nothing but "farm" resource nodes and craft Daily Writs to obtain Jewelry Crafting Surveys -- with a multitude of "crafting characters" -- are likely to consistently gain much. Currently, a player cannot have more than 8 (?) characters without paying Dollars qua Crowns for additional character slots. Encouraging such hyper-specialization is profitable to ZOS.

On the face of it, the game should be designed for the ordinary player. However, it is usually the fanatics that specialize in some feature of it to which the game designers pay attention and, perhaps inadvertently, favor. IMHO, it won't be long before players can buy Jewelry via the Crown Store -- the potential profits from non-crafting players are just too good to ignore.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

ZOS did increase the jewelry upgrade mats for completing jewelry crafting writs. Are you doing those to supplement your refining activities?

Of course, I have been fulfilling Daily Crafting Writs since the feature was introduced -- all of them for each of my current number of "active" characters, almost every day. Often it seems to me that I receive more Jewelry crafting quality grains in the payoff package than I ordinarily obtain from refining Platinum Dust.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Jewelry crafting players aren’t going to make crafted jewelry for general sale ... since it’s so expensive. Jewelry crafters will make crafted jewelry to order upon request.

It seems that you missed my point. Namely, making jewelry for sale should not be so expensive that it will be crafted only "to order" upon request. I rarely see any player advertising Jewelry crafting services via the Chat Window.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Finally, most importantly, remember the original premise of why upgrade materials are so rare: Jewelry upgrades and crafting should not be a substitute for players running challenging content. If upgrades were easy, then players would only run normal content (or just buy in the guild stores). All they have to do is upgrade their jewelry to gold ... which bypasses doing any difficult content.

Riiiiight (huh?) .... Before Jewelry crafting, players were always able to equip characters with Superior, or sometimes Epic, necklaces and rings. Sometimes two or three pieces also constitute a set, with bonuses according to how many pieces of the set are equipped. But found pieces could only be upgraded to Epic, and there were no Legendary jewelry pieces in play of which I have ever heard. Improving any piece either to Epic or to Legendary quality does not increase the benefit of the piece substantially for the specific character for which it is equipped.

Jewelry crafting simply made it possible to make necklaces and rings for crafted Sets of armor and weapons. It also increased the variety of Traits, which only crafted pieces can have. Perhaps they were introduced because Jewelry pieces cannot be crafted as a Set per se, (i.e., with set bonuses). However, 2 or 3 pieces do count as pieces of the associated crafted gear Set, and activate the corresponding Set bonuses. For example, a player can now equip three pieces of Julianos jewelry with a two-handed Julianos staff to make a 5-piece Julianos set.

Considering the prospective benefits from crafting Jewelry pieces, the rarity (thus the expense) of the materials required to craft them is a shame. It prevents most players from enjoying the prospective benefits of crafted Jewelry.

Where Jewelry quality Improvements could have a significant effect is with regard to Groups: 4-player Dungeons, 12-player Trials, and World Boss and Dolmen posses. In that regard, Epic and Legendary jewelry encourages players to seek the most challenging content, insofar as they might gain higher DPS or better prospects for survival (in particular). Players who currently participate primarily or only in 4-player Dungeon groups are encouraged to participate in 12-player Trials. Players who seldom, if ever, participate in Dungeon or Trial groups will, however, will not gain much benefit -- at least not without creating a 5-piece crafted gear set.

tmbrinks

I said this earlier in regards to your "footnote", but I'll repeat it.

When you perform a single "refine" action, you can get one level of improvement material. You will NEVER get for example a Dreugh Wax AND an Elegant Lining in the same refine. You do get that when you do the "multi-refine". Thus, it must be calling on the function more than once.

I refined another approximately 3k of each material today. I put in the spreadsheet that you linked with a date of 8/18. Data still looks normal (and I got unlucky with my ruby ash refining).

That's now 4 separate refines of note across two account on different days/times where the results are all as expected since Scalebreaker was released on Monday.

I'll also note, that nobody yet has actually shared data from the refining "not-working". No before/after screenshots. No screengrabs of the text output from addons that do that sort thing. There's been nothing. Nothing.

To steal from statistics. The null hypothesis is that nothing has changed. If you hypothesize that the rate from refining is in fact different. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence to the contrary.

tmbrinks

Shadowshire wrote: »

Where Jewelry quality Improvements could have a significant effect is with regard to Groups: 4-player Dungeons, 12-player Trials, and World Boss and Dolmen posses. In that regard, Epic and Legendary jewelry encourages players to seek the most challenging content, insofar as they might gain higher DPS or better prospects for survival (in particular). Players who currently participate primarily or only in 4-player Dungeon groups are encouraged to participate in 12-player Trials. Players who seldom, if ever, participate in Dungeon or Trial groups will, however, will not gain much benefit -- at least not without creating a 5-piece crafted gear set.

Not to be repetitive (since I know this has been said many, many times), but then why do you need the "gold" gear (or even purple) if you're not doing vHM DLC dungeons or vTrials, or end game PVP, there's no need for that gear. Those parts of the game all have their sources of jewelry, for the content that needs them.

The JC system at least lets you into the door now, so you don't HAVE to do that content, but is that still the easiest way to get it. Yes. That's what happens in an MMO. They want you to run the content over and over again, that's why it's a grind.

Shadowshire

@tmbrinks : Thank-you for your reply.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

....
____________
* Comparison of multi-crafting outcomes to single-crafting outcomes implies that when the button is set to "Max", the software accesses the Pseudorandom Number Generator (PNG) for one outcome and uses that to read a "multi-craft" table for the results. It does not access the PNG once for each set of 10 units and read the single-set table for the outcome, for each of the respective sets of 10 units. Given the quick-and-dirty programming practices which have become rather apparent during the almost 5 years that I've played TESO, I doubt that any particular analysis was done to assure that, at the least, multi-crafting will ordinarily produce the same profile of materials that single-crafting does. The designers and programmers are too hurriedly trying to get it done, to get it done right. Then seldom will they do it over.

It absolutely looks at each refine as an individual outcome. Otherwise the dozens of people who have confirmed that the new multicraft is working as intended would not have gotten the results they have.

Frankly, I doubt that anyone can ascertain what the ZOS designer intended. We can only observe the output of the Jewelry Crafting Refine function. By no means am I the only player who suspects that bulk-refine has not been implemented in an optimal way.

tmbrinks wrote: »

It is currently IMPOSSIBLE to get more than one level of improvement material in a single refine. (i.e. you can't get a dreugh wax AND an elegant lining in the same refine). How then do you explain all the people who have done a bulk refine of 10k materials who have received all four levels of improvement materials in a single refine.

If your hypothesis is true, those results are literally impossible. Thus, your hypothesis is false. (emphasis added)

I have personally tested it on both PTS AND on LIVE. I've posted my results. I've shared the data. Statistically significant data. I've yet to see statistically significant data from others. Just small sample sizes, which for rare events (which getting improvement materials is), means they are extremely sensitive.

Yes, it is impossible to get more than one type of Quality material from refining 10 units. But it is possible to get more than one type of Trait material from refining 10 units -- at least while refining ore, wood, or fiber.

My remarks about how ZOS has probably implemented multi-crafting do not change that. The "multi-crafting" table (if there is a separate one) would, of course, contain outcomes with multiple types of Quality material as well as multiple types of Trait material from refining however many sets of 10 units that the player has refined in bulk. I have bulk-refined some stacks of various sizes and the outcomes vary rather widely, from very poor to an unexpected windfall. We really are "rolling the dice".

On the whole, so far, at least, it seems to me that I am more likely to receive a series of 10-unit outcomes for which the respective totals for Quality materials and for Trait materials are higher than if I processed the same number of units as one Refine.

Regardless, your conclusion about my "hypothesis" does not follow from your remarks. Perhaps ZOS did implement the bulk Refine with a loop of 10-unit batches and accumulated the randomly-determined results of each one together for display after the single key-press. IMHO, that would indeed likely be the best way to do it.

But I have reasons to doubt that ZOS did it that way, if only because a single table access is so much faster. That really matters when there are individual players refining 70,000+ units of raw material each day (although I have my doubts about the claims of such players regardless). Which is to say, that over the course of time, I have come to have little faith in the ZOS developers, considering what I encounter during the course of play.

In my experience during the past 4+ years, each and every time a developer has attempted to "improve" the Crafting UI, they have proven more likely to make matters worse than better. That said, the current campaign to "review and revise" abilities has produced some ludicrous changes, also. But that is a topic for another discussion(s).

Again, thank-you for your reply.

tmbrinks

Shadowshire wrote: »

@tmbrinks : Thank-you for your reply.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

....
____________
* Comparison of multi-crafting outcomes to single-crafting outcomes implies that when the button is set to "Max", the software accesses the Pseudorandom Number Generator (PNG) for one outcome and uses that to read a "multi-craft" table for the results. It does not access the PNG once for each set of 10 units and read the single-set table for the outcome, for each of the respective sets of 10 units. Given the quick-and-dirty programming practices which have become rather apparent during the almost 5 years that I've played TESO, I doubt that any particular analysis was done to assure that, at the least, multi-crafting will ordinarily produce the same profile of materials that single-crafting does. The designers and programmers are too hurriedly trying to get it done, to get it done right. Then seldom will they do it over.

It absolutely looks at each refine as an individual outcome. Otherwise the dozens of people who have confirmed that the new multicraft is working as intended would not have gotten the results they have.

Frankly, I doubt that anyone can ascertain what the ZOS designer intended. We can only observe the output of the Jewelry Crafting Refine function. By no means am I the only player who suspects that bulk-refine has not been implemented in an optimal way.

tmbrinks wrote: »

It is currently IMPOSSIBLE to get more than one level of improvement material in a single refine. (i.e. you can't get a dreugh wax AND an elegant lining in the same refine). How then do you explain all the people who have done a bulk refine of 10k materials who have received all four levels of improvement materials in a single refine.

If your hypothesis is true, those results are literally impossible. Thus, your hypothesis is false. (emphasis added)

I have personally tested it on both PTS AND on LIVE. I've posted my results. I've shared the data. Statistically significant data. I've yet to see statistically significant data from others. Just small sample sizes, which for rare events (which getting improvement materials is), means they are extremely sensitive.

Yes, it is impossible to get more than one type of Quality material from refining 10 units. But it is possible to get more than one type of Trait material from refining 10 units -- at least while refining ore, wood, or fiber.

My remarks about how ZOS has probably implemented multi-crafting do not change that. The "multi-crafting" table (if there is a separate one) would, of course, contain outcomes with multiple types of Quality material as well as multiple types of Trait material from refining however many sets of 10 units that the player has refined in bulk. I have bulk-refined some stacks of various sizes and the outcomes vary rather widely, from very poor to an unexpected windfall. We really are "rolling the dice".

On the whole, so far, at least, it seems to me that I am more likely to receive a series of 10-unit outcomes for which the total Quality materials and Trait materials is higher than if I processed the same number of units as one Refine.

Regardless, your conclusion about my "hypothesis" does not follow from your remarks. Perhaps ZOS did implement the bulk Refine with a loop of 10-unit batches and accumulated the randomly-determined results of each one together for display after the single key-press. IMHO, that would indeed likely be the best way to do it.

But I have reasons to doubt that ZOS did it that way, if only because a single table access is so much faster. That really matters when there are individual players refining 70,000+ units of raw material each day (although I have my doubts about the claims of such players regardless). Which is to say, that over the course of time, I have come to have little faith in the ZOS developers, considering what I encounter during the course of play.

In my experience during the past 4+ years, each and every time a developer has attempted to "improve" the Crafting UI, they have proven more likely to make matters worse than better. That said, the current campaign to "review and revise" abilities has produced some ludicrous changes, also. But that is a topic for another discussion(s).

Again, thank-you for your reply.

I'm that player who did 70,000 raw mats (across the 4 crafts) on one account the day scalebreaker dropped. The spreadsheet you linked is mine too (I also did another 60k on my alt account the same day). I had saved them since I learned the bulk crafting was coming to save me hours of time. It's all recorded in that spreadsheet. You'll notice there's not statistical difference.

Your hypothesis, I bolded it. I believe I have very, very strong evidence against this. Other have posted as well.

I re-iterate. I've yet to see any proof to make me believe that that hypothesis (of yours) is in fact true. No screenshots. No before/after pictures. Nothing. Just hearsay.

Shadowshire

tmbrinks wrote: »

CantFixIr wrote: »

OK I just got 3 rosin for 400+ rough pieces of ruby ash. Complete rubbish. Using the multicraft piece of rubbish. Not even by choice. I wanted to go ten by ten but it defaulted to max after the first go.

The accepted rate for years has been 1 gold mat per 200 materials... and you're complaining about getting 3 in 400?

You may be right about the production rate for refining Blacksmithing ores, Woodworking pieces, and Clothing fibers. Although, the Pseudorandom Number Generator produces a large range of random outcomes. Note that "random" is not "fair", it is random. "Fair" is a social concept, premised on the assumption that everyone should be equally rewarded for their time and effort applied to the same enterprise, especially while working with others to achieve a common goal.

But I have NEVER received 1 gold mat per 200 units while refining Platinum Dust. The production rate for doing that is a whole different set of numbers.

tmbrinks

Shadowshire wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CantFixIr wrote: »

OK I just got 3 rosin for 400+ rough pieces of ruby ash. Complete rubbish. Using the multicraft piece of rubbish. Not even by choice. I wanted to go ten by ten but it defaulted to max after the first go.

The accepted rate for years has been 1 gold mat per 200 materials... and you're complaining about getting 3 in 400?

You may be right about the production rate for refining Blacksmithing ores, Woodworking pieces, and Clothing fibers. Although, the Pseudorandom Number Generator produces a large range of random outcomes. Note that "random" is not "fair", it is random. "Fair" is a social concept, premised on the assumption that everyone should be equally rewarded for their time and effort applied to the same enterprise, especially while working with others to achieve a common goal.

But I have NEVER received 1 gold mat per 200 units while refining Platinum Dust. The production rate for doing that is a whole different set of numbers.

I've refined 89,150 platinum dust since Dec, 24, 2018. I've gotten 440 chromium grains. That's a 0.49% drop rate (1 in 200 is a 0.5%)

Shadowshire

VaranisArano wrote: »

....

One of the reasons we keep asking for actual data is that if we want to show ZOS theres a problem, we have to actually prove it. The folks who tested it on PTS and on Live who are saying its the same as it always was tested with over 10K mats, not a couple hundred, when they've cited their data on the other threads.
....

What the "actual data" to which you refer clearly shows is that the amount of each Quality material produced by Refining Platinum Dust is just too damn low!!!! Why do you accept and implicitly approve of the amounts which the research reveals?

No one should have to refine thousands of units of Platinum Dust to obtain enough for the number of Jewelry Sealed Master Crafting writs which even a player with only four crafting characters can accumulate -- but can never afford to satisfy!!

There is a problem, and ZOS knows it. They lowered the number of Chromium platings required to craft a Legendary piece from 8 to 4. They also increased the likelihood that a Zircon or Chromium plating will be in the payoff for completing a daily Jewelry Crafting Writ. Now they have introduced Sealed Jewelry Master Writs which require a Superior piece instead of Epic or Legendary. Those things are quick and easy to do.

Revising the number of grains which are produced is another matter entirely. The problem is that there are so many players who spend HOURS each day "farming" crafting resource nodes. They also typically have more than 8 "crafting characters" to do daily Jewelry Crafting Writs to obtain Jewelry Crafting Surveys. Given the economic system in TESO, increasing supply does not necessarily lower the price of any material and increase demand for it. However, reducing the number of players decreases demand, and that will definitely lower the price of materials.

Do you have any idea how many Sealed Jewelry Crafting Writs that my characters have DESTROYED because the number of vouchers in the payoff were not worth the cost of the Quality platings to create the pieces?? There is not enough storage space available in the game to contain all of them pending acquiring the materials to satisfy them. Yet, I still have plenty of them and receive more almost every day.

But I don't expect that to continue much longer. The Patch Notes 5.5.1 are a bit vague, but introducing Sealed Jewelry Crafting Writs which require Superior pieces has probably decreased the likelihood of receiving a Sealed Writ that requires either an Epic or a Legendary piece.

ZOS seems to be quite aware of the accumulation of unopened Jewelry Sealed Master Writs, too. Because, after a recent "maintenance patch", the confirmation dialog for destroying a Jewelry Sealed Master Crafting Writ now displays the word "DESTROY" already entered in the field, in which it must otherwise be entered by the player. So the player just presses the Destroy button to do it.

VaranisArano

Shadowshire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

....

One of the reasons we keep asking for actual data is that if we want to show ZOS theres a problem, we have to actually prove it. The folks who tested it on PTS and on Live who are saying its the same as it always was tested with over 10K mats, not a couple hundred, when they've cited their data on the other threads.
....

What the "actual data" to which you refer clearly shows is that the amount of each Quality material produced by Refining Platinum Dust is just too damn low!!!! Why do you accept and implicitly approve of the amounts which the research reveals?

No one should have to refine thousands of units of Platinum Dust to obtain enough for the number of Jewelry Sealed Master Crafting writs which even a player with only four crafting characters can accumulate -- but can never afford to satisfy!!

There is a problem, and ZOS knows it. They lowered the number of Chromium platings required to craft a Legendary piece from 8 to 4. They also increased the likelihood that a Zircon or Chromium plating will be in the payoff for completing a daily Jewelry Crafting Writ. Now they have introduced Sealed Jewelry Master Writs which require a Superior piece instead of Epic or Legendary. Those things are quick and easy to do.

Revising the number of grains which are produced is another matter entirely. The problem is that there are so many players who spend HOURS each day "farming" crafting resource nodes. They also typically have more than 8 "crafting characters" to do daily Jewelry Crafting Writs to obtain Jewelry Crafting Surveys. Given the economic system in TESO, increasing supply does not necessarily lower the price of any material and increase demand for it. However, reducing the number of players decreases demand, and that will definitely lower the price of materials.

Do you have any idea how many Sealed Jewelry Crafting Writs that my characters have DESTROYED because the number of vouchers in the payoff were not worth the cost of the Quality platings to create the pieces?? There is not enough storage space available in the game to contain all of them pending acquiring the materials to satisfy them. Yet, I still have plenty of them and receive more almost every day.

But I don't expect that to continue much longer. The Patch Notes 5.5.1 are a bit vague, but introducing Sealed Jewelry Crafting Writs which require Superior pieces has probably decreased the likelihood of receiving a Sealed Writ that requires either an Epic or a Legendary piece.

ZOS seems to be quite aware of the accumulation of unopened Jewelry Sealed Master Writs, too. Because, after a recent "maintenance patch", the confirmation dialog for destroying a Jewelry Sealed Master Crafting Writ now displays the word "DESTROY" already entered in the field, in which it must otherwise be entered by the player. So the player just presses the Destroy button to do it.

Are you telling me that you've empirically proved that we are getting lower odds on gold, purple, etc. grains than other improvement mats? (In which case I want to see the numbers...)

Or are you complaining that due to the way ZOS designed jewelry crafting, we need lots more gold grains per jewelry piece than we need tempers for a weapon?

Those are two different issues. and neither of them have much to do with what I've been pointing out from the beginning: a lack of data to back up your complaint against Multicrafting.

I don't care about your complaints with ZOS' design for jewelry crafting. That's not my issue with you, as my personal preference would be for ZOS to remove grains and do a 1 to 1 Platings with other gold mats.

My issue is that I'm still trying to get you to post actual statistically significant data sets for your original claim against Multicrafting in the first paragraph of the OP.

So far we've got your claim about 6000 platinum dust, which is a good start, though as others have stated, presenting data in screenshots, before/after, or other records is evem better. I also laid out for you how you could test your claim about smaller amounts getting more refined materials, effectively doing it enough times to establish a comparison that levels out the effect of RNG on small sample sizes.

Until I actually see the data, its pretty hard to credit the claim that Multicrafting significantly altered the RNG on anything more than an anecdotal level, especially when the data we do have in large sample sizes says the opposite.

tmbrinks

Shadowshire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

....

One of the reasons we keep asking for actual data is that if we want to show ZOS theres a problem, we have to actually prove it. The folks who tested it on PTS and on Live who are saying its the same as it always was tested with over 10K mats, not a couple hundred, when they've cited their data on the other threads.
....

What the "actual data" to which you refer clearly shows is that the amount of each Quality material produced by Refining Platinum Dust is just too damn low!!!! Why do you accept and implicitly approve of the amounts which the research reveals?

No one should have to refine thousands of units of Platinum Dust to obtain enough for the number of Jewelry Sealed Master Crafting writs which even a player with only four crafting characters can accumulate -- but can never afford to satisfy!!

There is a problem, and ZOS knows it. They lowered the number of Chromium platings required to craft a Legendary piece from 8 to 4. They also increased the likelihood that a Zircon or Chromium plating will be in the payoff for completing a daily Jewelry Crafting Writ. Now they have introduced Sealed Jewelry Master Writs which require a Superior piece instead of Epic or Legendary. Those things are quick and easy to do.

Revising the number of grains which are produced is another matter entirely. The problem is that there are so many players who spend HOURS each day "farming" crafting resource nodes. They also typically have more than 8 "crafting characters" to do daily Jewelry Crafting Writs to obtain Jewelry Crafting Surveys. Given the economic system in TESO, increasing supply does not necessarily lower the price of any material and increase demand for it. However, reducing the number of players decreases demand, and that will definitely lower the price of materials.

Do you have any idea how many Sealed Jewelry Crafting Writs that my characters have DESTROYED because the number of vouchers in the payoff were not worth the cost of the Quality platings to create the pieces?? There is not enough storage space available in the game to contain all of them pending acquiring the materials to satisfy them. Yet, I still have plenty of them and receive more almost every day.

But I don't expect that to continue much longer. The Patch Notes 5.5.1 are a bit vague, but introducing Sealed Jewelry Crafting Writs which require Superior pieces has probably decreased the likelihood of receiving a Sealed Writ that requires either an Epic or a Legendary piece.

ZOS seems to be quite aware of the accumulation of unopened Jewelry Sealed Master Writs, too. Because, after a recent "maintenance patch", the confirmation dialog for destroying a Jewelry Sealed Master Crafting Writ now displays the word "DESTROY" already entered in the field, in which it must otherwise be entered by the player. So the player just presses the Destroy button to do it.

I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the refining being an issue, not that you wanted to change another mechanic of the game in a thread talking about multicraft. My apologies.

Also, that "DESTROY" that was entered was from Dolgubon's Lazy Writ addon, not from the game.

The new jewelry master writs, especially the Superior ones... are very nice to do!

Shadowshire

Perhaps we shall see, eventually, whether the so-called "hypothesis" is correct:

RefinementTracker

tmbrinks

Shadowshire wrote: »

Perhaps we shall see, eventually, whether the so-called "hypothesis" is correct:

RefinementTracker

I use the same add-on. It still outputs to text the correct amount after you refine, but the on screen list doesn't update right away since Scalebreaker. It does appear to be correct after you log out and back in. I just use it to track the improvement materials drops, then use the text output and transfer to my spreadsheet.

Here's a sample output in chat. Note, it does NOT show how many "finished" materials were received. Nor does it give any trait stones you may receive.

Feric51

tmbrinks wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

Perhaps we shall see, eventually, whether the so-called "hypothesis" is correct:

RefinementTracker

I use the same add-on. It still outputs to text the correct amount after you refine, but the on screen list doesn't update right away since Scalebreaker. It does appear to be correct after you log out and back in. I just use it to track the improvement materials drops, then use the text output and transfer to my spreadsheet.

Here's a sample output in chat. Note, it does NOT show how many "finished" materials were received. Nor does it give any trait stones you may receive.

After seeing that chat capture, I think you guys on PC are doing some weird stuff with Hist Bark that hasn't caught on with Console players yet......

tmbrinks

Feric51 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

Perhaps we shall see, eventually, whether the so-called "hypothesis" is correct:

RefinementTracker

I use the same add-on. It still outputs to text the correct amount after you refine, but the on screen list doesn't update right away since Scalebreaker. It does appear to be correct after you log out and back in. I just use it to track the improvement materials drops, then use the text output and transfer to my spreadsheet.

Here's a sample output in chat. Note, it does NOT show how many "finished" materials were received. Nor does it give any trait stones you may receive.

After seeing that chat capture, I think you guys on PC are doing some weird stuff with Hist Bark that hasn't caught on with Console players yet......

haha... just my buddy using my house as a crafting hall to do his master writs! Now Skooma on the other hand...

Nestor

@tmbrinks

Hint, addons use the first tab for dumping text or chat messages. Some use a tab called Spam. So I take the first tab, name it Spam, and let the addons have it, and only allow Say.

Then I create second through whatever for Group or Guild or Zone etc. This keeps my conversations separate from my data.

Octopuss

I haven't tested the new system much yet, but others probably already have some data, so: does refining raw mats by tens yield more of the additional stuff?
I _feel_ like under the old system you got something almost per every refine, whereas now when you do it all with one click you get a lot less.

tmbrinks

Octopuss wrote: »

I haven't tested the new system much yet, but others probably already have some data, so: does refining raw mats by tens yield more of the additional stuff?
I _feel_ like under the old system you got something almost per every refine, whereas now when you do it all with one click you get a lot less.

Every single statistically significant test that has been done, by people who have shown data, have shown that the drop rates using the multirefine are identical to the drop rates that have been before.

The only people who have "claimed" to have gotten less, have done so through anecdotal evidence only. There has been exactly 0 cases where somebody has presented irrefutable evidence that is statistically significant that the refining rates are different.

I personally have refined over 150k materials since the system was implemented, it's the same.

ruifeio

tmbrinks wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

I haven't tested the new system much yet, but others probably already have some data, so: does refining raw mats by tens yield more of the additional stuff?
I _feel_ like under the old system you got something almost per every refine, whereas now when you do it all with one click you get a lot less.

Every single statistically significant test that has been done, by people who have shown data, have shown that the drop rates using the multirefine are identical to the drop rates that have been before.

The only people who have "claimed" to have gotten less, have done so through anecdotal evidence only. There has been exactly 0 cases where somebody has presented irrefutable evidence that is statistically significant that the refining rates are different.

I personally have refined over 150k materials since the system was implemented, it's the same.

What about writs number outcome?
Thank You

tmbrinks

ruifeio wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

I haven't tested the new system much yet, but others probably already have some data, so: does refining raw mats by tens yield more of the additional stuff?
I _feel_ like under the old system you got something almost per every refine, whereas now when you do it all with one click you get a lot less.

Every single statistically significant test that has been done, by people who have shown data, have shown that the drop rates using the multirefine are identical to the drop rates that have been before.

The only people who have "claimed" to have gotten less, have done so through anecdotal evidence only. There has been exactly 0 cases where somebody has presented irrefutable evidence that is statistically significant that the refining rates are different.

I personally have refined over 150k materials since the system was implemented, it's the same.

What about writs number outcome?
Thank You

I've honestly seen no change in any of the drop rates for any of the writ rewards (with the exception of jewelry crafting grains, which they made a guaranteed drop on max level writs)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yQDUjYNQVsIFl0ktkbkSlfYPkzP6pgCOTMQ-qCuzfaI/edit?usp=sharing

I track all of them here, I'm know this has been shared elsewhere in here, but easier to just repost.

Feric51

Console user input here using multi-refine for the first time last night.

10k ruby ash = 53 rosin (0.0053)
7k leather = 39 dreugh wax (0.0056)
5.5k silk = 32 dreugh wax (0.0058)
2k rubedite = 6 tempering alloy (0.003)

I still have 20k+ rubedite. The 2k was my first test with multi-refine and I moved to different stations and just forgot to go back to get a bigger sample size.

By and large though, you can see that these line up pretty much spot on with the accepted average that @tmbrinks has demonstrated over a much larger sample size. I also did 5k+ platinum but forgot to jot down the results before my screen cleared.

Anyway... I have little/no concerns over using multi-refine with these first-hand results coupled with the metadata the PC guys have churned out.