Is the Ebonheart Pact as bad in the other factions storyline as the Dominion is in the Pacts?

mann9753b16_ESO

I only ever played the Pact story, and what I see of the dominion there makes them little better than Monsters...

They kill Argonian Eggs (literally slaughtering Children), they use Necromancy and a "Resident Evil" Like Plague, they use Deidra and burn people alive to become Skinstealers...

Im not talking about the normal crimes of War here, so killing Civilians doesnt count, as this is something bound to happen in War, but overall, what you hear from the Dominion in the Pacts storyline really makes my skin crawl...

Does the Pact come of as such a pure Evil in another Factions Story Line or is the Dominion just... Well...

mann9753b16_ESO

One Dominion Soldier even cooked and ate an Argonian Egg... Jesus, these people are devils...

VaranisArano

Spoilers, obviously.




No, the Pact actually does very little invading of the other alliances, which makes sense when its basically the Dunmer, Argonians, and Nords loking at the nascent Dominion and wannabe 2nd Empire and going "Yeah, we'd better stick together or theyre gonna conquer us."

IIRC, there's one quest in Auridon where you thwart a Pact landing party, amd I don't recall any Pact in the Covenant at all.

Honestly, the Pact's questline is the most focused on the Three Banners War, as the other two have more to do with the internal mechanics of holding their alliance together. There are some areas where the Pact is questionable, especially depending on your choices in quests where the Dunmer want to use necromancy.

Extra Spoilery

there is some indication that the Worm Cult has thoroughly infiltrated all three alliances, amd so one could speculate that the Dominion in Shadowfen and the Covenant necromancer on Bleakrock and Stonefalls could be their fault

For what it's worth, the Dominion's own faction storyline is fantastic and does give me an alternate theory about what happened in Shadowfen, but you havent done it yet, so I shan't spoil it.

Have fun questing!

Bruccius

The worst I remember is that the Pact collaborated with the Veiled Heritance in Auridon, but aside from that I can't recall much of any Pact agression.

LennoxPoodle

Isn't there a pact (mainly Nord and Dunmer) slave hunter/raiding party in stormhaven. IIRC it was about the pact forbidding enslavement of Argonians but not members of non-pact states.

But honestly the pact are the only ones who don't want to rule, but establish a council were all species are equally represented.

Fun fact, Gabrielle Benele, the person who came up with the idea of provoking the boblins in stonefalls is a really adorable person and sometimes a bit dorky.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

As I mentioned in the general discussion sub-forum: I have done all 3 of the factions zones, and the Aldmeri Dominion and Daggerfall Covenant do comes across as a lot more nasty than the Pact does. Even to the point of strangeness. The Pact is made by 3 races who hates eachother, yet you rarely see much conflict – Most of the time they get along swimmingly!
In the DC and AD storylines they rarely (Can't even think of one) do anything horrific. Just "normal" war things. While the Dominion has that whole thing in Shadowfen along with other horrors, and the DC's military seems to be filled with psychopaths, rapists and other unpleasant people.

Koronach

The way I see Shadowfen is Ruuvitar and some of his followers were extremists like the Veiled Heritance. His soldiers probably had no choice but to follow orders or be executed on the spot. At least that's what I gathered after doing the AD quests and seeing the Veiled Heritance and reading those letters from Ruuvitar in Reaper's March. At least I think that's where I read those.

Korah_Eaglecry

VaranisArano wrote: »

Spoilers, obviously.




No, the Pact actually does very little invading of the other alliances, which makes sense when its basically the Dunmer, Argonians, and Nords loking at the nascent Dominion and wannabe 2nd Empire and going "Yeah, we'd better stick together or theyre gonna conquer us."

IIRC, there's one quest in Auridon where you thwart a Pact landing party, amd I don't recall any Pact in the Covenant at all.

Honestly, the Pact's questline is the most focused on the Three Banners War, as the other two have more to do with the internal mechanics of holding their alliance together. There are some areas where the Pact is questionable, especially depending on your choices in quests where the Dunmer want to use necromancy.

Extra Spoilery

there is some indication that the Worm Cult has thoroughly infiltrated all three alliances, amd so one could speculate that the Dominion in Shadowfen and the Covenant necromancer on Bleakrock and Stonefalls could be their fault

For what it's worth, the Dominion's own faction storyline is fantastic and does give me an alternate theory about what happened in Shadowfen, but you havent done it yet, so I shan't spoil it.

Have fun questing!

This isnt entirely true and actually downplays what the Ebonheart Pact is doing to the other Alliances members. Most of it is actually found within the EP storyline and is really just brushed over (which seems to be a theme for the EP). The Dunmer are notorious for their slavery and at the point of the EP storyline Argonian Slavery has mostly been outlawed, though there is evidence that its not overly regulated. But the Dunmer have turned their attentions to the enemy Alliances and began kidnapping and enslaving the races of both beast and men.

In Stonefalls you will encounter a farm that has been overrun with Khajiiti demons after the slaves there revolted against their masters. All of the slaves at this location are Khajiit but there is no mention if they are former soldiers or simply civilians. Implying the Dunmer are raiding Elsweyr for slaves.

Move further inland into Shadowfen and if youre exploring every nook and cranny you might stumble on not just the slave camps but a young Breton woman trying to escape her Dunmer masters. Its up to you whether you turn her in or let her escape on the dingy waiting for her.

Now while the AD storyline doesnt ever touch on this, not even a off hand comment from a high ranking member of the Alliance, the Daggerfall storyline does. As you enter Stormhaven and enter the first village you come to. There is a woman distraught over her childs abduction by Dunmeri Slavers. Conveniently they never fly the EP standard but its not hard to imagine where these young Bretons intended destination is. Luckly a storm recently blew through and sunk the Slavers ship, giving you the opportunity to save the womans child.

So while the EP does not commit acts of necromancy or attempts genocide with some creepy egg eating. They are party to some rather vile slavery and all the inhumane treatment that entails.

Kambo

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

This isnt entirely true and actually downplays what the Ebonheart Pact is doing to the other Alliances members. Most of it is actually found within the EP storyline and is really just brushed over (which seems to be a theme for the EP). The Dunmer are notorious for their slavery and at the point of the EP storyline Argonian Slavery has mostly been outlawed, though there is evidence that its not overly regulated. But the Dunmer have turned their attentions to the enemy Alliances and began kidnapping and enslaving the races of both beast and men.

In Stonefalls you will encounter a farm that has been overrun with Khajiiti demons after the slaves there revolted against their masters. All of the slaves at this location are Khajiit but there is no mention if they are former soldiers or simply civilians. Implying the Dunmer are raiding Elsweyr for slaves.

Move further inland into Shadowfen and if youre exploring every nook and cranny you might stumble on not just the slave camps but a young Breton woman trying to escape her Dunmer masters. Its up to you whether you turn her in or let her escape on the dingy waiting for her.

Now while the AD storyline doesnt ever touch on this, not even a off hand comment from a high ranking member of the Alliance, the Daggerfall storyline does. As you enter Stormhaven and enter the first village you come to. There is a woman distraught over her childs abduction by Dunmeri Slavers. Conveniently they never fly the EP standard but its not hard to imagine where these young Bretons intended destination is. Luckly a storm recently blew through and sunk the Slavers ship, giving you the opportunity to save the womans child.

So while the EP does not commit acts of necromancy or attempts genocide with some creepy egg eating. They are party to some rather vile slavery and all the inhumane treatment that entails.

But that's just Dunmer and not the entire Pact. Even if they fly Pact flags.

A big part of Dunmer culture has always been slavery in some way shape or form, and out of respect for the Argonians helping them drive back the Akaviri they mostly outlawed the enslavement of Argonians, or just slavery in general. But, Dunmer still have their way of life, as well as historical and cultural ties, so some still try to enslave what they consider "lesser races" as it's considered a sign of power and superiority within their culture. Take the Telvanni for example. If you go to Vvardenfell, you can still find plenty of enslaved Argonians as the Telvanni are not members of the Pact, and the Telvanni more than any other group of Dunmer are adamant about the show of power and superiority. But that doesn't mean they're evil. Spoilers ahead.

There is an entire questline revolving around an Argonian slave in Sadrith Mora, who works her way up from being a slave to an actual Telvanni Wizard. It shows that the Telvanni, while they do still enslave people, are clearly open to allowing anyone, slave or otherwise, to show they have power and superiority as well. It's a part of Telvanni culture, and a part of Dunmer culture as a whole.

Korah_Eaglecry

Kambo wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

This isnt entirely true and actually downplays what the Ebonheart Pact is doing to the other Alliances members. Most of it is actually found within the EP storyline and is really just brushed over (which seems to be a theme for the EP). The Dunmer are notorious for their slavery and at the point of the EP storyline Argonian Slavery has mostly been outlawed, though there is evidence that its not overly regulated. But the Dunmer have turned their attentions to the enemy Alliances and began kidnapping and enslaving the races of both beast and men.

In Stonefalls you will encounter a farm that has been overrun with Khajiiti demons after the slaves there revolted against their masters. All of the slaves at this location are Khajiit but there is no mention if they are former soldiers or simply civilians. Implying the Dunmer are raiding Elsweyr for slaves.

Move further inland into Shadowfen and if youre exploring every nook and cranny you might stumble on not just the slave camps but a young Breton woman trying to escape her Dunmer masters. Its up to you whether you turn her in or let her escape on the dingy waiting for her.

Now while the AD storyline doesnt ever touch on this, not even a off hand comment from a high ranking member of the Alliance, the Daggerfall storyline does. As you enter Stormhaven and enter the first village you come to. There is a woman distraught over her childs abduction by Dunmeri Slavers. Conveniently they never fly the EP standard but its not hard to imagine where these young Bretons intended destination is. Luckly a storm recently blew through and sunk the Slavers ship, giving you the opportunity to save the womans child.

So while the EP does not commit acts of necromancy or attempts genocide with some creepy egg eating. They are party to some rather vile slavery and all the inhumane treatment that entails.

But that's just Dunmer and not the entire Pact. Even if they fly Pact flags.

A big part of Dunmer culture has always been slavery in some way shape or form, and out of respect for the Argonians helping them drive back the Akaviri they mostly outlawed the enslavement of Argonians, or just slavery in general. But, Dunmer still have their way of life, as well as historical and cultural ties, so some still try to enslave what they consider "lesser races" as it's considered a sign of power and superiority within their culture. Take the Telvanni for example. If you go to Vvardenfell, you can still find plenty of enslaved Argonians as the Telvanni are not members of the Pact, and the Telvanni more than any other group of Dunmer are adamant about the show of power and superiority. But that doesn't mean they're evil. Spoilers ahead.

There is an entire questline revolving around an Argonian slave in Sadrith Mora, who works her way up from being a slave to an actual Telvanni Wizard. It shows that the Telvanni, while they do still enslave people, are clearly open to allowing anyone, slave or otherwise, to show they have power and superiority as well. It's a part of Telvanni culture, and a part of Dunmer culture as a whole.

The Nords and Argonians are allies of the Dunmer, they are their equals within the Pact. If they didnt want to be party to such atrocities they have the ability to either put a stop to it (as evidence of the "No Argonian Slave" policy) or cut the Dunmer out of the Alliance altogether. By not taking a stance on the issue they are permitting it and shoulder the blame for it. Its actually quite lorebreaking that the Argonians at the very least dont take a harder stance on the issue of slavery since many of the current EP Argonian citizens are former slaves. You would think they would be much more sympathetic to others being forced to experience what they endured.

Theres also the fact that the EP armies are most definitely benefiting from slaves as supply trains for the army needs to come from somewhere and the cheapest supplies will come from the cheapest means of production. So again, they are far from separated from the act of slavery.

The Telvanni are not members of the EP. They refused to participate in the Alliance and were able to retain their Argonian slaves because of this. And what you fail to mention when bringing up your cherry picked story is there are plenty of Argonians running about in Vvardenfell that never gain their freedom. Plenty of characters you can interact with that dont take advantage of the Telvanni Caste system. Youre also leaving out the most notorious Slavers in all of Morrowind, the Dres. Some of the most brutal and merciless slavers to ever exist in TES Lore. The Dres are the primary source of slaves through out all of Morrowind and there is no "get out of slavery" loopholes with the Dres like there is with the Telvanni.

Kambo

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The Nords and Argonians are allies of the Dunmer, they are their equals within the Pact. If they didnt want to be party to such atrocities they have the ability to either put a stop to it (as evidence of the "No Argonian Slave" policy) or cut the Dunmer out of the Alliance altogether. By not taking a stance on the issue they are permitting it and shoulder the blame for it. Its actually quite lorebreaking that the Argonians at the very least dont take a harder stance on the issue of slavery since many of the current EP Argonian citizens are former slaves. You would think they would be much more sympathetic to others being forced to experience what they endured.

Theres also the fact that the EP armies are most definitely benefiting from slaves as supply trains for the army needs to come from somewhere and the cheapest supplies will come from the cheapest means of production. So again, they are far from separated from the act of slavery.

The Telvanni are not members of the EP. They refused to participate in the Alliance and were able to retain their Argonian slaves because of this. And what you fail to mention when bringing up your cherry picked story is there are plenty of Argonians running about in Vvardenfell that never gain their freedom. Plenty of characters you can interact with that dont take advantage of the Telvanni Caste system. Youre also leaving out the most notorious Slavers in all of Morrowind, the Dres. Some of the most brutal and merciless slavers to ever exist in TES Lore. The Dres are the primary source of slaves through out all of Morrowind and there is no "get out of slavery" loopholes with the Dres like there is with the Telvanni.

The Ebonheart Pact, from what I've learned, is about treating all the races within its faction equally and respecting their cultures. So why wouldn't the Pact allow the Dunmer to continue enslaving those of other races? It was specifically decided by the Pact, since the Argonians played a major role in the war against the Akaviri, that the act of enslaving Argonians was to be outlawed, and all currently enslaved Argonians were to be freed, which they were because the Dunmer and Nords both appreciated and respected the help the Argonians provided. But just because enslaving Argonians was outlawed doesn't mean the Dunmer aren't allowed to continue enslaving those of other races within their own borders, namely Morrowind. Even Tiber Septim, Talos, allowed the Dunmer to continue the act of slavery within the borders of Morrowind despite all of Tamriel having slavery outlawed at that point. Simply put, it's a large part of Dunmeri culture, not to mention their economics, and the Pact respects the Dunmer's cultural right to continue the act of slavery.

Even if you view the Pact as being bad because they allow the Dunmer to continue enslaving other races, which I'm not saying is a morally good thing to do, you can't ignore that it isn't as bad as Eating an Argonian Egg, Attempting to kill an entire nest of Argonian Eggs, and openly allowing Necromancy to be used against your enemies.

Dominion Soldiers literally tried to murder an entire nest of Argonian Eggs. And Necromancy I would argue is even worse than slavery, as you're essentially enslaving someone's soul after they've died and are literally controlling everything they do. Quite frankly, in comparison, enslaving some Khajiit seems far better morally than enslaving the souls of the dead.

Korah_Eaglecry

Kambo wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The Nords and Argonians are allies of the Dunmer, they are their equals within the Pact. If they didnt want to be party to such atrocities they have the ability to either put a stop to it (as evidence of the "No Argonian Slave" policy) or cut the Dunmer out of the Alliance altogether. By not taking a stance on the issue they are permitting it and shoulder the blame for it. Its actually quite lorebreaking that the Argonians at the very least dont take a harder stance on the issue of slavery since many of the current EP Argonian citizens are former slaves. You would think they would be much more sympathetic to others being forced to experience what they endured.

Theres also the fact that the EP armies are most definitely benefiting from slaves as supply trains for the army needs to come from somewhere and the cheapest supplies will come from the cheapest means of production. So again, they are far from separated from the act of slavery.

The Telvanni are not members of the EP. They refused to participate in the Alliance and were able to retain their Argonian slaves because of this. And what you fail to mention when bringing up your cherry picked story is there are plenty of Argonians running about in Vvardenfell that never gain their freedom. Plenty of characters you can interact with that dont take advantage of the Telvanni Caste system. Youre also leaving out the most notorious Slavers in all of Morrowind, the Dres. Some of the most brutal and merciless slavers to ever exist in TES Lore. The Dres are the primary source of slaves through out all of Morrowind and there is no "get out of slavery" loopholes with the Dres like there is with the Telvanni.

The Ebonheart Pact, from what I've learned, is about treating all the races within its faction equally and respecting their cultures. So why wouldn't the Pact allow the Dunmer to continue enslaving those of other races? It was specifically decided by the Pact, since the Argonians played a major role in the war against the Akaviri, that the act of enslaving Argonians was to be outlawed, and all currently enslaved Argonians were to be freed, which they were because the Dunmer and Nords both appreciated and respected the help the Argonians provided. But just because enslaving Argonians was outlawed doesn't mean the Dunmer aren't allowed to continue enslaving those of other races within their own borders, namely Morrowind. Even Tiber Septim, Talos, allowed the Dunmer to continue the act of slavery within the borders of Morrowind despite all of Tamriel having slavery outlawed at that point. Simply put, it's a large part of Dunmeri culture, not to mention their economics, and the Pact respects the Dunmer's cultural right to continue the act of slavery.

Even if you view the Pact as being bad because they allow the Dunmer to continue enslaving other races, which I'm not saying is a morally good thing to do, you can't ignore that it isn't as bad as Eating an Argonian Egg, Attempting to kill an entire nest of Argonian Eggs, and openly allowing Necromancy to be used against your enemies.

Dominion Soldiers literally tried to murder an entire nest of Argonian Eggs. And Necromancy I would argue is even worse than slavery, as you're essentially enslaving someone's soul after they've died and are literally controlling everything they do. Quite frankly, in comparison, enslaving some Khajiit seems far better morally than enslaving the souls of the dead.

I really dont think there is anything worth debating here with you. I understand that the OP wanted to know whether the EP are "as bad" as the other factions. But my original comment was to point out that there are atrocities on the EP side. Even if ZOS did a terrible job of putting it on display.

If you want to argue on behalf of the EP with someone else, go right on ahead. But Im really not interested in a devils advocate situation where someone tries to argue that slavery is somehow not equal to the atrocities committed by the other alliances. They are all atrocities and Im willing to bet ZOS never meant for it to be a "ones worse than the others" and thats why each one is shown to be doing evil *** while their leaders are simultaneously so likeable.

VaranisArano

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Spoilers, obviously.




No, the Pact actually does very little invading of the other alliances, which makes sense when its basically the Dunmer, Argonians, and Nords loking at the nascent Dominion and wannabe 2nd Empire and going "Yeah, we'd better stick together or theyre gonna conquer us."

IIRC, there's one quest in Auridon where you thwart a Pact landing party, amd I don't recall any Pact in the Covenant at all.

Honestly, the Pact's questline is the most focused on the Three Banners War, as the other two have more to do with the internal mechanics of holding their alliance together. There are some areas where the Pact is questionable, especially depending on your choices in quests where the Dunmer want to use necromancy.

Extra Spoilery

there is some indication that the Worm Cult has thoroughly infiltrated all three alliances, amd so one could speculate that the Dominion in Shadowfen and the Covenant necromancer on Bleakrock and Stonefalls could be their fault

For what it's worth, the Dominion's own faction storyline is fantastic and does give me an alternate theory about what happened in Shadowfen, but you havent done it yet, so I shan't spoil it.

Have fun questing!

This isnt entirely true and actually downplays what the Ebonheart Pact is doing to the other Alliances members. Most of it is actually found within the EP storyline and is really just brushed over (which seems to be a theme for the EP). The Dunmer are notorious for their slavery and at the point of the EP storyline Argonian Slavery has mostly been outlawed, though there is evidence that its not overly regulated. But the Dunmer have turned their attentions to the enemy Alliances and began kidnapping and enslaving the races of both beast and men.

In Stonefalls you will encounter a farm that has been overrun with Khajiiti demons after the slaves there revolted against their masters. All of the slaves at this location are Khajiit but there is no mention if they are former soldiers or simply civilians. Implying the Dunmer are raiding Elsweyr for slaves.

Move further inland into Shadowfen and if youre exploring every nook and cranny you might stumble on not just the slave camps but a young Breton woman trying to escape her Dunmer masters. Its up to you whether you turn her in or let her escape on the dingy waiting for her.

Now while the AD storyline doesnt ever touch on this, not even a off hand comment from a high ranking member of the Alliance, the Daggerfall storyline does. As you enter Stormhaven and enter the first village you come to. There is a woman distraught over her childs abduction by Dunmeri Slavers. Conveniently they never fly the EP standard but its not hard to imagine where these young Bretons intended destination is. Luckly a storm recently blew through and sunk the Slavers ship, giving you the opportunity to save the womans child.

So while the EP does not commit acts of necromancy or attempts genocide with some creepy egg eating. They are party to some rather vile slavery and all the inhumane treatment that entails.

I'll be honest, I'd forgotten about that DC quest with the slavers. (I was also trying not to spoil much of the questlines the OP hasnt done, but it seems others havent bothered.)

Still, its far less than the zone spanning storylines where DC and AD fight in Pact zones, which is what the OP asked.

The Pact ain't squeaky clean. In Stonefalls, Tanval Indoril absolutely uses Necromancy ("its my own ancestors so it doesn't count" is BS) against the Covenant. In the Rift, more Pact soldiers use necromancy to fight the Reachmen. Plus, as you say, a heap of slavery and racism.

But the OP asked if they could expect the AD and DC storylines to present the Pact as Pure Evil along the same lines as what the Dominion soldiers did in Shadowfen...and thus my answer was No. You do see fighting. You do see that the Paxt is not perfect and involved with slavery, which is obviously terrible.

In Grahtwood, you get the opinion of a bunch of Argonians fleeing the Pact for the Dominion.

But it's a comparatively implied treatment of the Pact's bad actions that comes up in a few quests here and there...compared to the very explicit baby-killing Dominion soldiers in the main quest of Shadowfen or DC necromancy in the Bleakrock to Stonefalls story arc. In the AD and DC stories, is no Zone story or major story arc where the Pact are the villains, unlike the Page's storyline.

So the Pact has issues...but those issues are largely seen in its own storyline. The OP will see those issues crop up in the AD and DC storylines...but not to the same extent that AD and DC served as villains in the Pact's storylines.

Which was more my point, not to downplay the horror of slavery.