Maintenance for the week of May 4:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 4
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 4
We will be performing maintenance for patch 12.0.3 on the PTS on Monday at 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC).
NB changes on stream
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Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: [edited]
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
[edited]
Interesting, now that you’re at it already can you pls compare other abilities as reference? Maybe Impuls/force shock to see if nb has passively more damageEdited by ZOS_RikardD on 28 April 2019 17:230 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.Edited by HowlKimchi on 28 April 2019 15:526 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭@Jeezye This might be a futile test, as Nightblade gets too much passive damage from Magicka Flood (8% magicka) so Nightblade would always have more base damage.
@Dracane
Well if you want a true comparison between two skills you need to normalize their damage multipliers first. I wouldn’t argue NB damage is naturally higher through Magicka flood when sorcs have passively 10% more dmg vs high health targets2 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: [edited]
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
[edited]
That's mainly because nightblade passives and not the overall skill though. Magblades have increased crit damage and merciless hits naturally 10% harder. So you will end up with maybe 20% extra damage on your target if merciless crits. Which would result in an additional 4k damage like you are seeing but if you don't crit you will see maybe a 1k or 2k difference. If you are actually hitting players with impen frags damage is actually really comparable with merciless only hitting a little harder. you will not see anything close to a 4k difference on a player maybe 700 to 1.5k.
at the end of the day magsorc is the best class in the game and magblade is the worse class for PvP and there is really no way to argue that. most competent players will tell you how broken mag sorc is. If you mainly PvE I agree with you that merciless is the better skill because it hits for a little more damage and you can squeeze out 3 bow procs from one cast. In PvP however where most of the magblade complaints come from the skill is nowhere near as effective as frags because it basically hits for the same damage and frags is more readily available.Edited by ZOS_RikardD on 28 April 2019 17:237 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):net/5020507/uploads/editor/rw/ptax5w5y3322.png
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.Edited by Dracane on 28 April 2019 15:59Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.3 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over
Indeed. Imagine it like this: If an ability has 1000 base damage and you add 100 spell damage, it gets 100% of these 100 spell damage added. If you have an ability with 800 base damage and add 100 spell damage, it will not get 100% of these 100 spell damage added. Perhaps just 90% or less.
This of course stacks and stacks the higher your damage gets.
My intention here was to show, that Merciless Resolve is by far not as weak as people like to claim. It's in fact significantly stronger than crystal fragments and has much higher burst potential if you crit, which Nightblades can force to happen. I am not here to discuss how much damage Nightblade does with force pulse and how much Sorcerer does.
I will just say, you can not ignore class passives, it simply does not work that way. You can make a comparison, but it will be meaningless in the end.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.1 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭@darkblue5
the dmg mitigation will benefit brawler the most because their base playstyle is to endure tons of damage by mitigating them as much as possible and deal even more dmg in order to kill their opponent.
if you play like a ranged magnb or an assassin, you're more into dealing the maximum dmg you can WITHOUT GETTING HIT. therefor mitigation is not your very business. a few sustain in order to survive a bit if you get caught is enough.
anyway, the assassin playstyle is about to die in TESO since you have to mail your target by marking it, then stack up your defense/offense thru LA (which could take a while since you warn your opponent you're on your way to attack him with mark) and then (if you're still fighting) release a nerfed burst.
meanwhile random warden brawlers will just fully buff themselves behing a tree, rush into you, drop sub assault/DBoS(or permafrost)/whirling blades beside any other aoe that might be buff until june 4th an look for other things to do..
warn ppl when you focus at them with single target abilities that takes ages to load,
unleash the doom anytime anywhere with your aoes.
your choice.1 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.
You don't get it, right? We don't care about resistance in Grin Focus because it's a DPS Skill, not a tank/healing skill.
The resistance is useless in PvE because you want to proc the Spectral Bow as soon as you get it, you don't hold the arrow and wait for the right moment to shoot, that's what you do in PvP, so maybe it can be somehow useful in PvP, but the skill is at it's core a DPS Skill, so the solution for everyone is keeping it like it suppose to be... Attach a dmg buff not some tanky/healing useless stuff...3 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over
Indeed. Imagine it like this: If an ability has 1000 base damage and you add 100 spell damage, it gets 100% of these 100 spell damage added. If you have an ability with 800 base damage and add 100 spell damage, it will not get 100% of these 100 spell damage added. Perhaps just 90% or less.
This of course stacks and stacks the higher your damage gets.
My intention here was to show, that Merciless Resolve is by far not as weak as people like to claim. It's in fact significantly stronger than crystal fragments and has much higher burst potential if you crit, which Nightblades can force to happen. I am not here to discuss how much damage Nightblade does with force pulse and how much Sorcerer does.
I will just say, you can not ignore class passives, it simply does not work that way. You can make a comparison, but it will be meaningless in the end.
The thing is, you just compare both skills damage wise, and yes, AW damage is probably the highest in the game. However, you should also take into account it takes at least 2 more GCDs to build up (more if LAs miss), can only be build up while being offensive and not under pressure, and damage of nb may be naturally higher (something you’d have to test as I pointed out).
I don’t think this magblade sorc discussion is leading to any valuable insights here so I’d suggest discussing it in a separate thread5 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over
Indeed. Imagine it like this: If an ability has 1000 base damage and you add 100 spell damage, it gets 100% of these 100 spell damage added. If you have an ability with 800 base damage and add 100 spell damage, it will not get 100% of these 100 spell damage added. Perhaps just 90% or less.
This of course stacks and stacks the higher your damage gets.
My intention here was to show, that Merciless Resolve is by far not as weak as people like to claim. It's in fact significantly stronger than crystal fragments and has much higher burst potential if you crit, which Nightblades can force to happen. I am not here to discuss how much damage Nightblade does with force pulse and how much Sorcerer does.
I will just say, you can not ignore class passives, it simply does not work that way. You can make a comparison, but it will be meaningless in the end.
The thing is, you just compare both skills damage wise, and yes, AW damage is probably the highest in the game. However, you should also take into account it takes at least 2 more GCDs to build up (more if LAs miss), can only be build up while being offensive and not under pressure, and damage of nb may be naturally higher (something you’d have to test as I pointed out).
I don’t think this magblade sorc discussion is leading to any valuable insights here so I’d suggest discussing it in a separate thread
I never argued that Crystal fragments are easier to proc than Grim Focus. Which is justified by the higher damage of Grim Focus. People here claimed, that Crystal Fragments hits for the same damage, which is far from true. My mission was to defy this, I hope you finally get me now.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.4 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: Fool
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
For the future, I encourage you to put some effort into your arguments and actually go out and compare numbers with actual tests. Those build editors are a disgrace and are not even to be considered.
For proper testing you should exclude passives that affect damage, as those are additional class benefits and not something base abilities should be judged on. The 10% extra magicka your nightblade has over your sorcerer is ridiculous when you try to compare abilities, what were you thinking?
Absolutely not. These are things, that definately are present on each and every character. Every sorcerer gets 2% spell damage for slotted class ability and every Nightblade gets 8% magicka for just slotting their main spammable etc.
So yes, these things will definately get included. You just can't accept the fact, that Nightblade is far from dead and that this class is absolutely ridiculous. Even without this magicka, Grim Focus would be alot stronger.
Honestly the test is wrong. If you want to test Skill vs Skill, you do it with naked characters, no passives, no CP, no gear... And you just test the Raw Skills.
Because from the start of your test, the gear you are using synergy better with NB Passives than with Sorc Passives, so your test is biased...
Test the Raw Skills and show the %.3 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭@Jeezye This might be a futile test, as Nightblade gets too much passive damage from Magicka Flood (8% magicka) so Nightblade would always have more base damage.
That's what I'm saying, he is using gear that favors NB Passives and not Sorc Passives... He have to test both characters naked, no passives, no CP, no gear... Just the raw skills...0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: Fool
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
For the future, I encourage you to put some effort into your arguments and actually go out and compare numbers with actual tests. Those build editors are a disgrace and are not even to be considered.
For proper testing you should exclude passives that affect damage, as those are additional class benefits and not something base abilities should be judged on. The 10% extra magicka your nightblade has over your sorcerer is ridiculous when you try to compare abilities, what were you thinking?
Absolutely not. These are things, that definately are present on each and every character. Every sorcerer gets 2% spell damage for slotted class ability and every Nightblade gets 8% magicka for just slotting their main spammable etc.
So yes, these things will definately get included. You just can't accept the fact, that Nightblade is far from dead and that this class is absolutely ridiculous. Even without this magicka, Grim Focus would be alot stronger.
Honestly the test is wrong. If you want to test Skill vs Skill, you do it with naked characters, no passives, no CP, no gear... And you just test the Raw Skills.
Because from the start of your test, the gear you are using synergy better with NB Passives than with Sorc Passives, so your test is biased...
Test the Raw Skills and show the %.
Wow, people here really have no clue how this game works.
Who cares what an ability does if you are naked ? What matters, is what it does when you are in your gear.
Or do you go into Cyrodiil without passives and without gear ?
Please, don't act so foolish.
My test shows you the true difference between these abilities. But sure, continue doing your naked testing, which is as far from reality as it can get.Edited by Dracane on 28 April 2019 16:48Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You could make grim focus give you 50 % resistance, and people would still complain about the lack of minor berserk.
Look, increase the duration of both to 30 sec and resistance, and it will be not worse, not equal, but BETTER than before.
You don't get it, right? We don't care about resistance in Grin Focus because it's a DPS Skill, not a tank/healing skill.
The resistance is useless in PvE because you want to proc the Spectral Bow as soon as you get it, you don't hold the arrow and wait for the right moment to shoot, that's what you do in PvP, so maybe it can be somehow useful in PvP, but the skill is at it's core a DPS Skill, so the solution for everyone is keeping it like it suppose to be... Attach a dmg buff not some tanky/healing useless stuff...
This skill crits for upwards of 100k, the damage is already there.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Jeezye This might be a futile test, as Nightblade gets too much passive damage from Magicka Flood (8% magicka) so Nightblade would always have more base damage.
That's what I'm saying, he is using gear that favors NB Passives and not Sorc Passives... He have to test both characters naked, no passives, no CP, no gear... Just the raw skills...
I am using gear that I will be using on both characters. Nightblades and Sorcerers aren't very different when it comes to gear.
It is beyond my understanding, how someone can believe that naked testing has any meaning to it. All abilities in the game are a few hundret damage apart when you are naked. But this is not realistic, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT FIGHT NAKED, for the love of Trinimac.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.2 -
MentalxHammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crystal frags proc'd base damage:
9518 × 1.2 = 11422
Relentless/Merciless base damage:
11815 / 12707
Relentless proc is only 3.4% stronger than a proc'd frag, frag is up after an average of 3 gcd's, bow is up after 5 gcd's.
Nb bow does 3-5% more damage but frags procs 66% more often, you be the judge.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crystal_Shard
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Grim_FocusEdited by MentalxHammer on 28 April 2019 16:540 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LOL 2 pages bragging about NB vs Sorc DPS 1 -2% difference (of course, as usual) and almost no one is pointing out how already trash NB tanks & healers will be even worse somehow. Funny, I did not thought that it is possible....6 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
But that's the thing, I've already showed you in the build editor than even when damage is maxed out, the difference is within 1k. I only showed these live values to you to show that my calcs are not wrong because you so stubbornly throw those out the window.4 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Ugh people this is not a sorc vs nb slap contest. Dracane is right in that AW hits significantly stronger than frags, even if the tests aren’t 100% accurate they still reveal this tendency.
The actual amount can be determined in extensive testing but while add no valuable information on the current status of magblade since the issue doesn’t even lie in damage!
Now get constructive again3 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over
Indeed. Imagine it like this: If an ability has 1000 base damage and you add 100 spell damage, it gets 100% of these 100 spell damage added. If you have an ability with 800 base damage and add 100 spell damage, it will not get 100% of these 100 spell damage added. Perhaps just 90% or less.
This of course stacks and stacks the higher your damage gets.
My intention here was to show, that Merciless Resolve is by far not as weak as people like to claim. It's in fact significantly stronger than crystal fragments and has much higher burst potential if you crit, which Nightblades can force to happen. I am not here to discuss how much damage Nightblade does with force pulse and how much Sorcerer does.
I will just say, you can not ignore class passives, it simply does not work that way. You can make a comparison, but it will be meaningless in the end.
The thing is, you just compare both skills damage wise, and yes, AW damage is probably the highest in the game. However, you should also take into account it takes at least 2 more GCDs to build up (more if LAs miss), can only be build up while being offensive and not under pressure, and damage of nb may be naturally higher (something you’d have to test as I pointed out).
I don’t think this magblade sorc discussion is leading to any valuable insights here so I’d suggest discussing it in a separate thread
I never argued that Crystal fragments are easier to proc than Grim Focus. Which is justified by the higher damage of Grim Focus. People here claimed, that Crystal Fragments hits for the same damage, which is far from true. My mission was to defy this, I hope you finally get me now.
My mission is to show that frags and bow proc are very similar in damage. Which I have proven to be true i belive. I did it in live, I did it with the calcs. I am 100% transparent about this.
Your proof however is sketchy because your magsorc seems to have too high health, which means something is wrong.Ugh people this is not a sorc vs nb slap contest. Dracane is right in that AW hits significantly stronger than frags, even if the tests aren’t 100% accurate they still reveal this tendency.
The actual amount can be determined in extensive testing but while add no valuable information on the current status of magblade since the issue doesn’t even lie in damage!
Now get constructive again
It is not significantly stronger. It is within 5%.Edited by HowlKimchi on 28 April 2019 17:013 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui
First off, to give my statement more meaning, let me tell you: Fool
And now I shall present actual in game screenshots to you. The difference between crystal fragments and grim focus is gigantic.
Both characters are identical. Same CP setup, same gear (I just switch the same gear between both characters) and all passives learned. 5 Necropotence, 5 Alfiq and 2 Slimecraw. Which is the Cyrodiil setup I will be using. On Sorcerer of course, I must use mighty chudan in reality, because I do not have space for an external armor buff. While nightblade gets all armor buffs for free as a passive, so the Nightblade can use something else later.
22571 hit with a procced crystal fragment.
Nightblade has a few k more magicka, thanks to Magicka flood. Which is alot of extra damage, which I sadly can not exlude in my testing. The burdens of a passively overloaded class I fear.
27584 merciless resolve hit.
So as you can, the damage of both abilities is not even compareable. With the exact same setup, merciless resolve deals alot more damage. The difference being, that Merciless Resolve is going to grant overloaded passives. Which surely fits into the entire design of the divine class, so no surprise there.
For the future, I encourage you to put some effort into your arguments and actually go out and compare numbers with actual tests. Those build editors are a disgrace and are not even to be considered.
For proper testing you should exclude passives that affect damage, as those are additional class benefits and not something base abilities should be judged on. The 10% extra magicka your nightblade has over your sorcerer is ridiculous when you try to compare abilities, what were you thinking?
Absolutely not. These are things, that definately are present on each and every character. Every sorcerer gets 2% spell damage for slotted class ability and every Nightblade gets 8% magicka for just slotting their main spammable etc.
So yes, these things will definately get included. You just can't accept the fact, that Nightblade is far from dead and that this class is absolutely ridiculous. Even without this magicka, Grim Focus would be alot stronger.
Honestly the test is wrong. If you want to test Skill vs Skill, you do it with naked characters, no passives, no CP, no gear... And you just test the Raw Skills.
Because from the start of your test, the gear you are using synergy better with NB Passives than with Sorc Passives, so your test is biased...
Test the Raw Skills and show the %.
Wow, people here really have no clue how this game works.
Who cares what an ability does if you are naked ? What matters, is what it does when you are in your gear.
Or do you go into Cyrodiil without passives and without gear ?
Please, don't act so foolish.
My test shows you the true difference between these abilities. But sure, continue doing your naked testing, which is as far from reality as it can get.
Dude you are testing skill vs skill... You are not testing class vs class. You have to do it naked to have the less possible variables...
Because if you are testing class vs class, you will have to keep in mind a lot of stuff, for example the GCD and build up Variables, that by the time you shoot 1 Spectral Bow, you can easily shoot 2 or 3 Crystals because you can even build up on defense...
So what are you testing? Raw Skill vs Raw Skill dmg? Class vs Class? Or Playstyle vs Playstyle?...
As I said before, your test is biased... It's over...Edited by Chelo on 28 April 2019 17:025 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
But that's the thing, I've already showed you in the build editor than even when damage is maxed out, the difference is within 1k. I only showed these live values to you to show that my calcs are not wrong because you so stubbornly throw those out the window.
As I have showed you, your build editor is wrong.
Still you argue against it.
But I see, Nightblades are impossible to teach. So overloaded with strenght, they do not even see it.
Keep telling yourself and Zenimax how bad Grim Focus and your class is. It's laughable.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.1 -
Quaesivi✭✭✭The issue here, with the comparison of mag sorc/blade, is that people seem to be comparing 1 hit of bow/frag. Yet the issue of building up seems to be thrown out of the window, considering something that procs far quicker should obviously have a lower damage. But even then the difference is so minimal that by the time 2 bow procs happen, possibly there would be 3 frag procs, thus putting sorc far ahead, no matter how you complain about the lower damage.1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Now get constructive again
Sorry, I just had to prove my point (which I did), because my class (magblade) has been nerfed time and again because of magsorcs overperforming in pvp. So I find it annoying, rich even, that magsorcs are complaining that a magblade skill is being too "overloaded," after it just lost minor berserk.
It's comments like those that should be corrected, to keep my class from getting nerfed further.1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭<snip to shorten post>
@Dracane
in live, without any gear, same CP, same race, same everything:
Sorc:
Frags:
Tooltip:
frags proc: 10282
NB (this is with minor berserk so 8% is deducted in the final comparisons):
Bow proc (with minor berserk in live):
without minor berserk: 8640.64
Tooltip:
without minor berserk: 11316.92
Comparisons:
Frag damage/tooltip: 8494/10282
Bow proc damage/tooltip: 8640/11316
I dunno why you're not getting similar results from me. You're doing something wrong. also as a sidenote: your magsorc has 18k health, while the magblade only has 15k. In my build editor and live, the health of my magsorc and magblade are very close. It could be damage you're not putting into your evidence.
Simple. Because an ability with low base damage, doesn't get the same damage increase from 1000 spell damage as an ability with a higher base damage.
What you are doing, is using absolute low end damage that has nothing to do with high end damage. The difference between abilities is not high to being with, it just becomes appearent as your own damage increases. Same goes for crits. An ability with higher base damage will also get more crit damage.
So the difference between crystal fragments and merciless gets even bigger if you take crits into consideration.
So in conclusion: The higher your own damage, the bigger the difference between abilities of varying base strenght gets.
So basically starting from a low end setup frag does 92% damage of AW while with a high end setup it does only 82% damage. That means AW, besides having better base damage, also has significantly better scaling.
Still these numbers are only representative of you take a neutral skill as reference @Dracane
It is apparent however that AW at least will outperform frags with a certain threshold of stats, if not be superior damage wise all over
Indeed. Imagine it like this: If an ability has 1000 base damage and you add 100 spell damage, it gets 100% of these 100 spell damage added. If you have an ability with 800 base damage and add 100 spell damage, it will not get 100% of these 100 spell damage added. Perhaps just 90% or less.
This of course stacks and stacks the higher your damage gets.
My intention here was to show, that Merciless Resolve is by far not as weak as people like to claim. It's in fact significantly stronger than crystal fragments and has much higher burst potential if you crit, which Nightblades can force to happen. I am not here to discuss how much damage Nightblade does with force pulse and how much Sorcerer does.
I will just say, you can not ignore class passives, it simply does not work that way. You can make a comparison, but it will be meaningless in the end.
The thing is, you just compare both skills damage wise, and yes, AW damage is probably the highest in the game. However, you should also take into account it takes at least 2 more GCDs to build up (more if LAs miss), can only be build up while being offensive and not under pressure, and damage of nb may be naturally higher (something you’d have to test as I pointed out).
I don’t think this magblade sorc discussion is leading to any valuable insights here so I’d suggest discussing it in a separate thread
I never argued that Crystal fragments are easier to proc than Grim Focus. Which is justified by the higher damage of Grim Focus. People here claimed, that Crystal Fragments hits for the same damage, which is far from true. My mission was to defy this, I hope you finally get me now.
My mission is to show that frags and bow proc are very similar in damage. Which I have proven to be true i belive. I did it in live, I did it with the calcs. I am 100% transparent about this.
Your proof however is sketchy because your magsorc seems to have too high health, which means something is wrong.
.
I beg your pardon ?
First you spread false things from your petty build editor, which every decent theorycrafter knows to be wrong.
And then you show pictures of your half naked characters ?
And you do not even know the classes. Yes, Sorcerer has more health, because they get 8% health from having a pet active.
Face it, you do nothing about this game and you have no clue how things actually work. I tried my best to teach you, but you are unteachable.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.2 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui I don’t buy any of your numbers, but at least dracane has done testing in a representative PvP setup.
You can only compare these cross class numbers if you use a reference skill to determine passive multipliers, but I don’t care to do so since it’s not gonna add in to the big picture of two completely different classes and playstyles.
There’s absolutely no benefit to this discussion0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭@HaruKamui @Dracane
mates, could you explain me once again what does this dmg vs dmg discussion has to do with the nb changes announced in the stream?
please, create a proper topic about "spectral bow hits harder than crystal frag" this will be the most popular thread ever. no doubt.2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Now get constructive again
Sorry, I just had to prove my point (which I did), because my class (magblade) has been nerfed time and again because of magsorcs overperforming in pvp. So I find it annoying, rich even, that magsorcs are complaining that a magblade skill is being too "overloaded," after it just lost minor berserk.
It's comments like those that should be corrected, to keep my class from getting nerfed further.
If you think that this is my agenda, then I can calm you.
Magicka Nightblade received some nerfs, which I myself also find justified.
I just argue against the fact, that Nightblades are blind for their own potency. You have insane passives and your abilities provide more passive things than other class abilities. The loss of minor berserk and the loss of major facture on Surprise attack evened out the playing field a bit. There is a reason why Nightblades, magicka and stamina are played so often in pvp and pve.
I know, defending your main class is everyone's greatest goal. But please don't act like Nightblade is inferior, this is all I ask. You are a very strong class.
I don't say Nightblades necessarily need nerfs. I just can't suffer your greed for more and more and ever more power.Edited by Dracane on 28 April 2019 17:15Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0
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