I know its been talked about before..

ThanatosXR

I guess I'm beating a dead horse but I personally would like to know the reason for a lack of a grand exchange aka a centralized unifed market for the games economy, personally I noticed I don't have much of a way to sell my crafted items to players due to the lack of a centralized market, I played RuneScape for a few weeks on mobile and its Grand Exchange was really impressive, the last time I played it like 15 years ago it had all short of issues with its economy (inflation, price and supply issues, unbalanced peer trades,etc) the creation of the grand exchange (a search says the GE came in 2008)is hands down the best market for a stable game economy.
My question is:
Who thought letting kinships excuse me player guilds have a monopoly on the games economy was a good idea?
Im not against guild stores but the lack of any other way to trade is not logical. I guess since trade is monoplized you dont have inflation which is illogical also, as a MMO trade is part of the world building.

Yes Im starting to get mad, 5 years and simple standard systems arint even in place which were day 1, they do know this is a massive multiplayer right? ESO is a good game with the capability to be great by so many things are overlooked its plain werid for a mmo.
A few other thing never put in which really bug me: Open group finder(Lotro was great, especially for pvp)

Have devs ever made a statement about why trade is like this, a economic reason?

silvermistktralasub17_ESO

um, firstly, if you're trying to sell crafted furnishings, it's really a niche market at the best, and that's not because of the guild stores, but because most people end up making their own stuff..very few people actually end up buying much of anything in the way of premade furnishings. in the guilds that I am personally in, most of the time furnishings are made by guild members for others who don't have the patterns for right at mat cost. So, yeah, if you're looking for money from those, you won't get it. Sorry.

NoTimeToWait

Erm, you are taking it a bit too far by saying there is no way to trade in this game except by joining a (trading) guild. You can still trade directly, and shout WTS and WTB in the zone chat (which I do quite often with success). You just need to price things properly.

And yeah, there is almost no market for 90% of crafted things. Potions, foods, specific armor sets and specific furniture - that is all that gets sold at decent rates

tmbrinks

The decentralized system actually makes it more difficult for an individual (or small group of individuals) to corner the market for items. If there were only 1 global auction house, somebody could just camp the store, buy everything that's listed of one item type and mark up the prices drastically.

With the decentralization of 5 guild traders (give or take) in each major city, and 20 or so zones, somebody has to shop all 100 of those stores to do the same thing (not to mention some of the outlying ones that are off the beaten path/in refuges)

I'm in 3 trade guilds in fairly prominent locations, most of them have either a very short or no waiting list and things sell very quickly. They all allow me to sell pretty much anything in the game that there is a market for.

You can also advertise on your own (WTS in chat) if anybody wishes to buy your items. You'll actually save some gold doing that as you won't have to pay the 1% listing fee, and 7% tax that the guild traders charge

VaranisArano

This may seem like a weird suggestion, but have you tried joining a trading guild? Its pretty easy to find one that fits your selling needs in terms of requirements if you are willing to be patient and ask questions when you see the advertisements in zone chat.

Once you are in a guild, you can list your items like everyone else, and if people want to buy, they will.

I've been in several, including some of the capital city traders, and I found it to be an easy system to use once I tried ir out.

Especially with ZOS starting up their new Guild Search function, not only will it be easier to join trading guilds, but I'd be very surprised if we got a centralized auction house.

ghastley

Furnishings appeal to the same kind of people who want to make their own, so the market for individual pieces is weak. They won't buy a chair, they'll buy the blueprint and make a dozen for themselves.

Crafted equipment is only the second tier up from the random overland drops, and lot of the sets fall behind those. Better equipment drops in the harder dungeons, and all the market wants those, instead.

It has nothing to do with how it gets traded.

Katahdin

Because a centralized market does not fit the vision the devs have for the game

There are around 200 trader locations in the game and a few more will be added with the expansion, that is not a monopoly in any sense of the word, not even close

bmnoble

If your looking to sell furniture join a trade guild in the hollow city in Coldharbour. Every weekend when people go to gawk at the luxury vendor, they browse the guild traders there for extra furniture, before they leave again for the week.


The reason they don't have a central auction house is really simple, the trader blind bids are a gold sink. If players and guilds held onto all the gold that they use for their blind bids, it would mean more gold in circulation reducing it's value and making prices go up to stupidly high levels like in SWTOR with their Galactic Trade Network.

FlopsyPrince

Katahdin wrote: »

Because a centralized market does not fit the vision the devs have for the game

There are around 200 trader locations in the game and a few more will be added with the expansion, that is not a monopoly in any sense of the word, not even close

And it is a horrible design, both to buy and to sell.

tmbrinks wrote: »

The decentralized system actually makes it more difficult for an individual (or small group of individuals) to corner the market for items. If there were only 1 global auction house, somebody could just camp the store, buy everything that's listed of one item type and mark up the prices drastically.

That can only happen for a while. Things won't sell if they are too expensive. I am guessing you never played the auction house much on a game like WoW. I could be wrong, but cornering the market there was next to impossible past a point. Addons did help gab stuff that was cheap to relist, but that only works for a few items.

Now I have no way to know (on the PS4) what a good price is for something and where it is sold if so.

This system is idiotic.

JadeCoin

ghastley wrote: »

Furnishings appeal to the same kind of people who want to make their own, so the market for individual pieces is weak. They won't buy a chair, they'll buy the blueprint and make a dozen for themselves.

This is so true. Furnishing is part of the "endgame" for crafters (the other part is motifs), and crafters want to make their own things. It's usually someone with a creative mindset who gets seriously into housing.

This is why I think that attempting to drive crafters into the traders and the Crown Store to buy furniture, by making furnishing plans extremely rare, is wrongheaded. It's not that furnishings shouldn't be offered in the Crown Store or that it's a bad business practice or anything, just that these type of people are going to want to make their own stuff just for the sake of making their own stuff, if it's something that's craftable in the first place. In other words, it's not the thing that they really want to buy, so much as the ability to make it.

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but this is certainly how it is for me.

Kittytravel

The devs have it this way likely to avoid the same problem every single MMO has: market cornering. It's in WoW, it's in Runescape, it's in any MMO that has a centralized AH/Market system. Those who have the highest amount of anything will run the market and it's price. There was a guild in WoW on one of the servers I recall that would literally sit in the AH and buy up any end-game crafting materials that were below their set price point and then resell them. Sure you didn't get screwed if you were selling, you only got screwed if you were buying because you had to buy at their price. And most people don't realize that the market value of a in-game item is being decided by these larger end game guilds because it all happens relatively behind the scenes. (I don't play RS but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't happening there honestly.)


With that said, there are several trade guilds that don't have associated fees.
Also there is a website called TamrielTradeCenter. Don't know if I'm allowed to link it here but really give it a shot if you are a PC player; it's unbelievably useful for tracking down items on various guild traders and when those items were last seen.

As far as furnishings, just sell the raw materials. Most people will look for raw materials before they look for the item, the exception to this rule of course is hard to find drop rate recipes or widely used furniture. You can craft and sell those all day long. (Looking at you Alinor Ballroom Floor.)

But seriously try out a trade guild, not all of them are as oppressive as some zone chat advertisements seem. I know some of them come into zone chat with a "15K PER WEEK FEE" or some garbage like that but there are plenty that don't charge anything and just let you sell as is.

If you aren't a PC player then as much as I honestly hate to say it, good luck.

Alexsai

The open market always drives my crafting in the online games. It motivates me to learn and take the limited time I have to make income to enhance my game play. After a couple years subscribing I learned with this game I ultimately don't have interest or time to deal with guild programs and zone chatting to sell an item. So I don't craft. Then I became to realize there is no sense collecting resources for a year or two when I have no use for them because I have no reason to craft, certainly not to make one of each item for myself with all the learning and effort it takes.

So the resource bag became unnecessary and a couple of months I quit my long term subscription and used the money to subscribe to another game. I have also lost the ambition to go to the homes I bought because there is no crafting or anything to interract with or a real reason to be there. I still play this one now and then, log in to get the rewards in case something changes some day, but that whole part of the gameplay that is so important, does not work for me without an open market. I'm, a solo player with limited time and no wish to depend on a lot of people I don't know, do not want to interract with, that is not why I play.

Today I went to the guild trader for the first time in months and it looks like they have now messed up the sorting and limited our ability to find furniture we are looking for in a reasonable period of time. I cannot help but believe it is in order to drive players away from this trading too so they can more efficiently monetize the furniture they sell.

Disappointed. I thought ESO was going to be my forever game but it's lost its appeal for these reasons. Were it not for the absence of a central open market, crafting and making bank from the items would have kept me happy for years; there is certainly a lot of complexity and variety in the crafting choices.

RebornV3x

if anything each and every city should have a community trader board where you can sell maybe 5 items at a time or something low but still be something where you don't have to be in a guild to trade and or have to pay dues which is absolutely stupid.

one big game wide auction house couldn't work with the way the game is set up for many reasons one i'll share is ZOS is relaxed when it comes to bots in this game for a auction house to even have a chance in this game banning bots would have to be top priority or you would see temps go for like 100k+ each and wreck the economy.

Kittytravel

Alexsai wrote: »

does not work for me without an open market.

It is an open market. It's just not a centralized market.

Jayne_Doe

Alexsai wrote: »

The open market always drives my crafting in the online games. It motivates me to learn and take the limited time I have to make income to enhance my game play. After a couple years subscribing I learned with this game I ultimately don't have interest or time to deal with guild programs and zone chatting to sell an item. So I don't craft. Then I became to realize there is no sense collecting resources for a year or two when I have no use for them because I have no reason to craft, certainly not to make one of each item for myself with all the learning and effort it takes.

So the resource bag became unnecessary and a couple of months I quit my long term subscription and used the money to subscribe to another game. I have also lost the ambition to go to the homes I bought because there is no crafting or anything to interract with or a real reason to be there. I still play this one now and then, log in to get the rewards in case something changes some day, but that whole part of the gameplay that is so important, does not work for me without an open market. I'm, a solo player with limited time and no wish to depend on a lot of people I don't know, do not want to interract with, that is not why I play.

Today I went to the guild trader for the first time in months and it looks like they have now messed up the sorting and limited our ability to find furniture we are looking for in a reasonable period of time. I cannot help but believe it is in order to drive players away from this trading too so they can more efficiently monetize the furniture they sell.

Disappointed. I thought ESO was going to be my forever game but it's lost its appeal for these reasons. Were it not for the absence of a central open market, crafting and making bank from the items would have kept me happy for years; there is certainly a lot of complexity and variety in the crafting choices.

Um...the new guild trader interface actually makes it easier to find exactly what you want. I would argue that in the furnishing section, though, they streamlined the categories too much, which makes browsing more difficult. But, with text search, you can find a lot of things, even furnishings, more easily.

I was resistant at first to the guild trader system, but I got into a couple of trading guilds and before long, I started making good coin, enough to belong to some trading guilds in major areas that have dues. Is it less convenient than an auction house? Yes, and on console it's more work to find what you want, but it's more immersive to me.

Annomaander_Rake

They could do a global auction only, no buyout system where every player has ONE slot to sell their most valuable item, with the ability to set a minimum bid they'd be happy with. once their item sells, they can sell another one. it wouldn't be for low-value items and the player who purchased it wouldn't be able to give the item back to the seller, to avoid people trying to drive up the price of low-value items. that's the best I can think of for a compromise. sometimes I wish I could buy thousands of mats without having travel all over the place to get them, but that feeling is short lived. And as far as not wanting to/not willing to pay a weekly fee to stay in a good trading guild. the highest fees I've seen for the biggest trade guilds on PC/NA is 25k a week, and that easily acquired for even the lowest level/least experienced players, just by questing or grinding. Making real money in this game is easy if you aren't sentimental about pricing. just because you made an item or found an item doesn't mean its more valuable than everyone else's. price to sell and move on to the next sale, you'll make more money that way, I promise. lastly, if you aren't willing to be social in an MMO, don't play an MMO where 70% of the content is geared towards group play.

idk

Zos specifically stated they wanted a more social aspect to trading which is why it is guild centric. Even a guild that does not want to get a kiosk can still have a guild store for it's members.

That is the reason and they seem to be pleased with it.

In the end, you can still sell without being in a trade guild, though many PvE or social guilds do get traders, since you can sell via chat and other aspects.

I saw you said you are starting to get mad about this. Sorry to hear that because there seems to be almost nil chance Zos will be changing this. They seem to think it is doing quite well as they continue to support it.

FlopsyPrince

tmbrinks wrote: »

The decentralized system actually makes it more difficult for an individual (or small group of individuals) to corner the market for items. If there were only 1 global auction house, somebody could just camp the store, buy everything that's listed of one item type and mark up the prices drastically.

I may have responded to this before, but this is not true at all.

A "small group of individuals" could never corner the market for anything on World of Warcraft, for example. Too many people played for that to be effective.

Right now I have no idea if I am buying or selling at a good price, since the vendors are all over the place (PS4). Using the addon for the PC is getting the benefits of a central AH as well and blows another hole in the argument against it.

People need to realize this system is horrid, unless you personally benefit from it, which is far less than the number that are harmed.

FlopsyPrince

idk wrote: »

Zos specifically stated they wanted a more social aspect to trading which is why it is guild centric. Even a guild that does not want to get a kiosk can still have a guild store for it's members.

That is the reason and they seem to be pleased with it.

Then they are not being bright. I am in several decent trading guilds. Some nice people, but no better or worse than the social guilds I am in. Two specifically generally keep a trader in Alinor, which works for me, but I still despise this system. I have not idea if I am selling at a good price or a horrid one. And I have no idea what a fair price is to buy an item, since I don't have time to run all over the world and check.

It is really bad and does little to accomplish the "social goal" that is claimed here. These guilds are fine (for now at least) as long as I dump my money in every week. (7K on NA, 5K on EU) That is not social in the slightest.

They are almost certainly just making an excuse for not having to develop a central AH now, since they are so far along with this broken system.

Minyassa

The only explanation I've ever heard was "we wanted something new and different from other games." New and different does not always mean good, but it's certainly unique. If I wanted a salsa to be new and different from all other salsas and put marshmallow fluff in it, it would be unique too. And there would be some weirdos out there who would like it, too.

Siohwenoeht

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The decentralized system actually makes it more difficult for an individual (or small group of individuals) to corner the market for items. If there were only 1 global auction house, somebody could just camp the store, buy everything that's listed of one item type and mark up the prices drastically.

I may have responded to this before, but this is not true at all.

A "small group of individuals" could never corner the market for anything on World of Warcraft, for example. Too many people played for that to be effective.

Right now I have no idea if I am buying or selling at a good price, since the vendors are all over the place (PS4). Using the addon for the PC is getting the benefits of a central AH as well and blows another hole in the argument against it.

People need to realize this system is horrid, unless you personally benefit from it, which is far less than the number that are harmed.

Well I'll admit it was 11 years ago, but WoW auction house did have issues with cornered markets back then. It was sometimes subtle, and they'd play with the amounts in stacks so it was either wade through hundreds of listings of 1 piece of cloth to find the bulk deals that were cheaper or buy individual at a higher per piece price for convenience.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The decentralized system actually makes it more difficult for an individual (or small group of individuals) to corner the market for items. If there were only 1 global auction house, somebody could just camp the store, buy everything that's listed of one item type and mark up the prices drastically.

I may have responded to this before, but this is not true at all.

A "small group of individuals" could never corner the market for anything on World of Warcraft, for example. Too many people played for that to be effective.

Right now I have no idea if I am buying or selling at a good price, since the vendors are all over the place (PS4). Using the addon for the PC is getting the benefits of a central AH as well and blows another hole in the argument against it.

People need to realize this system is horrid, unless you personally benefit from it, which is far less than the number that are harmed.

Which add-on are you talking about?

The one that tracks sales prices from just the guilds you're in? or the one that tracks listing prices when people upload the data to an external site (which is fairly inaccurate, tbh), and to which people manipulate prices by listing things for way more than they are worth, uploading the data, then de-listing the item, so they can list it "on sale", but still high enough that they make more profit than they would have otherwise. (Stores in the real world do this same manipulation with prices, Walmart is notorious for this! Jack up the price on an item, only to list it "on sale" for close to the original price to increase sales dramatically)

I use the add-ons.... I also know what's a fair price for the materials/items I'm purchasing. Things are only worth what you're willing to pay for them... if the price is too high, and other people agree it's too high, they won't buy them... the market corrects itself.

Why assume malicious intent by everybody who likes this system?

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos specifically stated they wanted a more social aspect to trading which is why it is guild centric. Even a guild that does not want to get a kiosk can still have a guild store for it's members.

That is the reason and they seem to be pleased with it.

Then they are not being bright. I am in several decent trading guilds. Some nice people, but no better or worse than the social guilds I am in. Two specifically generally keep a trader in Alinor, which works for me, but I still despise this system. I have not idea if I am selling at a good price or a horrid one. And I have no idea what a fair price is to buy an item, since I don't have time to run all over the world and check.

It is really bad and does little to accomplish the "social goal" that is claimed here. These guilds are fine (for now at least) as long as I dump my money in every week. (7K on NA, 5K on EU) That is not social in the slightest.

They are almost certainly just making an excuse for not having to develop a central AH now, since they are so far along with this broken system.

If this game is as broken as you say (judging by the approximately 100 threads you've started over the last 3 months or so, all negative)... why are you even still playing? It's an honest question. You clearly hate a lot of things with this game, why not play something else?

FlopsyPrince

100 threads? Haven't I told you a million times to not exaggerate?

I post threads because I care about the games I play. Why does that bother you? I have to love it all or leave? You are just as bad as many of the WoW fanboys that were around their forums.

On the note about cornering the market in WoW: Yes, some would look for underpriced stuff to buy and resell, but I have seen posts here saying people do the exact same thing and it would certainly be easier with no centralized location to find prices.

As to addons, I was referring to the one on the PC (that I have been told about, I haven't used it of course) that tell you who has what at what price. Those do not exist on the PS4/console. This system would allow far more market manipulation from those willing to focus on the "game" of running from trader to trader.

I am not surprised tmbrinks loves it since it gives him a lot of money, but some of us want to play the rest of the game instead, without being penalized for that. I have yet to hear a compelling reason for not having a centralized AH. It is a good money sink for ZOS, but it is horrible for most players.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

100 threads? Haven't I told you a million times to not exaggerate?

I post threads because I care about the games I play. Why does that bother you? I have to love it all or leave? You are just as bad as many of the WoW fanboys that were around their forums.

On the note about cornering the market in WoW: Yes, some would look for underpriced stuff to buy and resell, but I have seen posts here saying people do the exact same thing and it would certainly be easier with no centralized location to find prices.

As to addons, I was referring to the one on the PC (that I have been told about, I haven't used it of course) that tell you who has what at what price. Those do not exist on the PS4/console. This system would allow far more market manipulation from those willing to focus on the "game" of running from trader to trader.

I am not surprised tmbrinks loves it since it gives him a lot of money, but some of us want to play the rest of the game instead, without being penalized for that. I have yet to hear a compelling reason for not having a centralized AH. It is a good money sink for ZOS, but it is horrible for most players.

I don't think you realize how bad TTC actually is... when you're looking for something specific, it's already sold out, people have to manually update the listings by running an external program (which many of us refuse to do). TTC can only "see" things that are actually searched and show up from the server, so with the new text search feature that ZoS added to ALL PLATFORMS, TTC is a very, very, very poor listing of what is actually in stores, since many times if somebody is looking for an "inferno staff of the Mother's Sorrow", they search that, and ONLY those show up... so the data about a "Lightning staff of the Mother's Sorrow" doesn't even get updated.

I literally just sell the things I get from questing/doing writs/deconstruction... I don't play the buying/selling game, but please keep making assumptions to fit your preconceptions.

I've not yet heard a compelling reason TO HAVE a centralized AH. The burden of proof is on you, who wants the change, not on those who like the current system to prove that it needs to exist. It would be like me having to prove my innocence if you accuse me of a crime, rather than you proving my guilt. (A common flaw on the forums to be sure, and in arguments in general).

FlopsyPrince

You complaining about how bad TTC (the guild seller addon I assume) is makes my case.

You may be the exception being someone who doesn't buy at one guild vendor to sell at another, but that was mentioned (more than once IIRC) in other threads.

I have already noted several reasons how a central AH is better and the only bad thing you can mention is that someone might buy up underpriced stuff and relist it at a higher price, at least that is all I can see.

I don't expect them to change it (unfortunately), but that is not a good reason for this setup for the same reasons I have noted.

You are also the one who launched into the "100 threads" claim. Pot calling the kettle black and all that stuff....

FlopsyPrince

To note the clear benefits of a centralized AH (which I have noted before):

- Significantly easier to find it the item you want is even for sale anywhere instead of having to travel all over the place looking.
- An easy way to check what the going buy/sell price for something is based on current and past action on the AH.

Those are very significant benefits. I want to play the game, not run all over the place doing price checking or looking for something. An item might be too expensive for my budget to buy or too cheap for the value to sell, but I can find that out quickly and get back to playing the real game. (This is not Price Shopper Online.)

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You are also the one who launched into the "100 threads" claim. Pot calling the kettle black and all that stuff....

huh? Yes, you've started a lot of threads (53 to be exact in the 6 months you've been here, looking at your profile... I apologize profusely for using hyperbole)... are you saying I've done the same? That's categorically false, I've started 24 threads in the 2+ years I've been on the forums.

This system works for ESO, in a world where there are individual economies based around regions in the game.

Trust me, I am not the exception. This thread pops up in general chat about every 3 months, and it's pretty evenly split.

You have your opinion, I have mine. The evidence you have stated is not sufficient to sway my opinion, nor has it apparently swayed ZoS' (which is the only one that really matters) in the 2 years I've been on the forums, and seeing this topic brought up repeatedly (usually in general).

FlopsyPrince

You reply plenty. Starting a thread or replying is not that much different, except that many people won't start threads.

Some of my threads are improvement ideas. I take it you don't like that, since I should just live with what I have or quit. Not a great idea for a discussion forum, but OK. (If you don't mind, why are you complaining?)

The others are "how does this work?" questions. Am I supposed to be silent about those things too? I didn't know you had become the forum police? Why make it an issue if that is not your goal?

I speak up a lot. That will certainly bother some, but so what? That is the purpose here. I think ignoring people is fairly easy.

FlopsyPrince

tmbrinks wrote: »

Trust me, I am not the exception. This thread pops up in general chat about every 3 months, and it's pretty evenly split.

You have your opinion, I have mine. The evidence you have stated is not sufficient to sway my opinion, nor has it apparently swayed ZoS' (which is the only one that really matters) in the 2 years I've been on the forums, and seeing this topic brought up repeatedly (usually in general).

Then why do you seek to say I have to prove my point? Clearly many agree with me, so my ideas are not that far off from a significant portion of the player base. Many disagree too, so what? Why worry about it? Why get insulting?

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Trust me, I am not the exception. This thread pops up in general chat about every 3 months, and it's pretty evenly split.

You have your opinion, I have mine. The evidence you have stated is not sufficient to sway my opinion, nor has it apparently swayed ZoS' (which is the only one that really matters) in the 2 years I've been on the forums, and seeing this topic brought up repeatedly (usually in general).

Then why do you seek to say I have to prove my point? Clearly many agree with me, so my ideas are not that far off from a significant portion of the player base. Many disagree too, so what? Why worry about it? Why get insulting?

I'm not talking about YOU in particular... I'm talking about the people who want the change are the ones that need to prove that the change needs to happen... I'm merely of the opinion that nobody in that camp have provided sufficient evidence to prove the point that it needs to be changed.

ZoS is on record as saying they don't want an central AH, they would need very compelling evidence to change that.