Can man or mer interbreed with bestial races and successfully produce off-spring?

elven.were_wolf

Okay, so I’ve played murkmire and went through the whole bonding ritual quests, but upon finishing them so many questions rose. One is already in the title and my main question.
To make things clear, I already know that if men and mer reproduced the race of the child is that of the mother and secondary traits of the father are passed down. However, I don’t know if this applies to the rest of the races...
I’ll list the rest of my questions below:

1- Can Argonians and Khajiit reproduce? Can they reproduce through the hist or a bonding ritual?
2- Can Argonians and men or mer reproduce? Can they reproduce through the hist or a bonding ritual?
3- Can men or mer and Khajiit reproduce?
4- Is the bonding proccess of argonians the same as us humans or do they breed like reptiles by the female laying eggs and the male fertilizing them?

Hippie4927

I do know that Argonians lay eggs because we had the quest in Shadowfen where we had to save their eggs.

Tensar

1,2,3 = No
4 = Eggs

Ratzkifal

2 might be possible if the Hist sees benefit in that (which I don't think it does since its influence over the child would be weaker or nonexistent)
Otherwise, I heard "no" for 1 and 3 and I think I heard Argonians don't have a cloaka so it's already different from reptiles. Perhaps they are more like platypuses? Also, with the way you described it, are you sure you didn't confuse reptiles with amphibians? Reptiles usually don't have external fertilization. Some amphibians have that though. It's safe to say Argonians aren't like amphibians in that regard though (clearly a hard egg shell).

Koronach

Ratzkifal wrote: »

2 might be possible if the Hist sees benefit in that (which I don't think it does since its influence over the child would be weaker or nonexistent)
Otherwise, I heard "no" for 1 and 3 and I think I heard Argonians don't have a cloaka so it's already different from reptiles. Perhaps they are more like platypuses? Also, with the way you described it, are you sure you didn't confuse reptiles with amphibians? Reptiles usually don't have external fertilization. Some amphibians have that though. It's safe to say Argonians aren't like amphibians in that regard though (clearly a hard egg shell).

Actually in Murkmire during the one quest

"Something about Stibbons" I'm pretty sure when Stibbons goes into the hut after preparing himself for the rite of renewal. Ux-Deelith Mezatil says "Relax your cloaca and let it all out." Stibbons is like wait I don't have one and she tells him to get out then he turns into an egg.

so that pretty much confirms Argonians have one.

I just remembered they have a lore book on this threads topic, sort of https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology

Scythe_Mercer

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

baltic1284

Lore wise in general bestial races in the game Khajit and Argonians can not reproduce outside there own race. Men and Mer can have Children though the Bretons are a result of Ayleids of the Direnni Clan and Nedic people that lived in High Rock interbreeding and having children. Resulting in the Bretons, in fact when the Old Nords and Bretons first met many mistook theme for Mer and killed theme. After that many Bretons where referred too as Man/Mer. Beast cant have children outside there own races but man and Mer can though.

Juhasow

I dont know is producing any off-spring possible in ESO. I havn't seen any yet.

elven.were_wolf

Juhasow wrote: »

I dont know is producing any off-spring possible in ESO. I havn't seen any yet.

Lol. I certainly do think though that ESO needs children NPCs added to the game.

elven.were_wolf

That Imperial book you guys linked, orcs can’t interbreed with other mer and humans or is that just Imperial Ignorance of other races?

Koronach

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

That Imperial book you guys linked, orcs can’t interbreed with other mer and humans or is that just Imperial Ignorance of other races?

I'm honestly not entirely sure. I want to say it's Imperial Ignorance because they are Mer. They should be able to breed with Man and other Mer. However supposedly after Trinimac was defeated by Boethiah and they were changed, that might of changed how they can breed as well.

baltic1284

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

That Imperial book you guys linked, orcs can’t interbreed with other mer and humans or is that just Imperial Ignorance of other races?

Generally Imperial Ignorance as there is no stated lore saying Orcs cant have children with other races except best races of course. Culturally though Orcs that do are frowned apone and usually kicked out of the Stronghold.

Ogou

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

That Imperial book you guys linked, orcs can’t interbreed with other mer and humans or is that just Imperial Ignorance of other races?

I'd say Imperial ignorance since Agronak gro-Malog clearly had an imperial father. Unless for some reason, it was only possible because the father was also a vampire.

ArchMikem

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

1- Can Argonians and Khajiit reproduce? Can they reproduce through the hist or a bonding ritual?
2- Can Argonians and men or mer reproduce? Can they reproduce through the hist or a bonding ritual?
3- Can men or mer and Khajiit reproduce?
4- Is the bonding proccess of argonians the same as us humans or do they breed like reptiles by the female laying eggs and the male fertilizing them?

1: It's believed Argonians can't interbreed with any other Race, due to the fact they are Egg Layers as well as their special connection to the Hist and whatnot. Not to mention the Animal Kingdom gap. Men, Mer, and even Khajiit are all Mammals whereas Argonians are Reptilian.

2: Refer to answer #1

3: As far as the Lore is concerned, an assumed yes. It's been stated that whenever members of two Races (minus Argonians) mate, the offspring, if there is one, takes the physical appearance of the Mother, while inheriting some secondary traits from the Father. For example, a Nord Male mates with a Khajiiti Female, the Female will give birth to a Khajiit, but the child will have some Nord traits such as possibly increased height or muscle mass, eye color etc.

4: That one is still pretty obscure. That little quest ending in the Hut with Stibbons suggests the "Bonding Rite" is basically Argonians having intercourse. The Egg(s) are fertilized within the Female, and then the Female proceeds to lay them in nests to incubate for hatching. That's my theory.

Claudman

No.

Argonians are disconnected metaphysically and biologically from Nirn, they aren't from the reality nor have they come from the early Ehlnofey. Their biology is apparently quite alien considering what was said by the researchers in Murkmire.

The Ayleid in Murkmire were quite confused when they had learned from Argonian biology to the point they even question how they are alive. If an Ayleid who were one of the more advanced elven races don't understand Argonian biology, chances are an Imperial barely does too.

To make matters worse, Argonian biology varies from tribe to tribe. Some Argonians may lay eggs while some may not, regardless they seem to be biologically incompatible with non-Argonian races due to their alien nature. Betmer have been stated a few times to be unable to breed with non-Betmer, but Khajiit still remain a debated topic.

Khajiit, unlike Argonians, actually do come from Nirn and are related to the early Ehlnofey. Some furstocks of the Khajiit appear more Bosmeri than Khajiiti due to their Bosmeri roots (though this may be decanonized in Elsweyr with the Ohmes and Ohmes-Raht, so don't quote me on it). Though it is possible that Azura's tampering with the Bosmer who became Khajiit has rendered them unable to interbreed with what was formerly their own race and essentially made them an entirely new species. We will not know until Elsweyr.

I doubt Hist biomancy can garner an effect on individuals it did not create nor have any affiliation with.

baltic1284

ArchMikem wrote: »

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

1- Can Argonians and Khajiit reproduce? Can they reproduce through the hist or a bonding ritual?
2- Can Argonians and men or mer reproduce? Can they reproduce through the hist or a bonding ritual?
3- Can men or mer and Khajiit reproduce?
4- Is the bonding proccess of argonians the same as us humans or do they breed like reptiles by the female laying eggs and the male fertilizing them?

1: It's believed Argonians can't interbreed with any other Race, due to the fact they are Egg Layers as well as their special connection to the Hist and whatnot. Not to mention the Animal Kingdom gap. Men, Mer, and even Khajiit are all Mammals whereas Argonians are Reptilian.

2: Refer to answer #1

3: As far as the Lore is concerned, an assumed yes. It's been stated that whenever members of two Races (minus Argonians) mate, the offspring, if there is one, takes the physical appearance of the Mother, while inheriting some secondary traits from the Father. For example, a Nord Male mates with a Khajiiti Female, the Female will give birth to a Khajiit, but the child will have some Nord traits such as possibly increased height or muscle mass, eye color etc.

4: That one is still pretty obscure. That little quest ending in the Hut with Stibbons suggests the "Bonding Rite" is basically Argonians having intercourse. The Egg(s) are fertilized within the Female, and then the Female proceeds to lay them in nests to incubate for hatching. That's my theory.

Issue with 3 is that Bretons are a result of interbreeding with the Derini tribe that where Altmer. This resulted in time the Bretons that have been confirmed to be half Man and half Mer by the term Man/Mer Generally called Manmeri.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-sons-and-daughter-direnni-west-high-rock
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Direnni
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton
So yes a race can breed with each other Mer and Man mainly and have half races in the game.

Deathlord92

Issue with 3 is that Bretons are a result of interbreeding with the Derini tribe that where Altmer. This resulted in time the Bretons that have been confirmed to be half Man and half Mer by the term Man/Mer Generally called Manmeri.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-sons-and-daughter-direnni-west-high-rock
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Direnni
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton
So yes a race can breed with each other Mer and Man mainly and have half races in the game.[/quote]
Bretons are master race I always like to role a Breton assassin since oblivion where I started elder scrolls 💪

baltic1284

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Issue with 3 is that Bretons are a result of interbreeding with the Derini tribe that where Altmer. This resulted in time the Bretons that have been confirmed to be half Man and half Mer by the term Man/Mer Generally called Manmeri.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-sons-and-daughter-direnni-west-high-rock
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Direnni
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton
So yes a race can breed with each other Mer and Man mainly and have half races in the game.

Bretons are master race I always like to role a Breton assassin since oblivion where I started elder scrolls 💪
[/quote]

Yeah I like the Imperials slightly better than Bretons but not by much mainly the whole state part of theme the COlovians to the west and the Nibanese to the East. Bretons are interesting lore wise as they are a result of over tie breeding as a Half Mer Man race that everything thinks cant happen lol.

Bruccius

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Scythe_Mercer

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Key word there is ‘consider’ not to mention Imperials are not only racist but tend to view ‘their’ words as facts. Who exactly wrote what you cited here? Who’s the author and of what race? While the Savants may be knowledgeable their words have not been proven fact. Considering Argonians are too alien for even an Ayleid biologist to understand. If you played the Murkmire DLC storyline the Ayleids there cannot understand how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ as in again they are too alien. No solid evidence of inter breeding has been presented in ES only assumptions and ‘considerations’ besides the book in the Shivering Isles but like I said that was in a Daedric Plane so it contributes nothing to the topic.

baltic1284

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Key word there is ‘consider’ not to mention Imperials are not only racist but tend to view ‘their’ words as facts. Who exactly wrote what you cited here? Who’s the author and of what race? While the Savants may be knowledgeable their words have not been proven fact. Considering Argonians are too alien for even an Ayleid biologist to understand. If you played the Murkmire DLC storyline the Ayleids there cannot understand how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ as in again they are too alien. No solid evidence of inter breeding has been presented in ES only assumptions and ‘considerations’ besides the book in the Shivering Isles but like I said that was in a Daedric Plane so it contributes nothing to the topic.

I know how you feel tried to pull the same stunt in the Dragon discussion claiming much the same thing. My advice ifnore him and move on last I checked Man and Mer can have children, how the Bretons happened over a period of time but Man and Beastfold cant have children nor with Mer.

Bruccius

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Key word there is ‘consider’ not to mention Imperials are not only racist but tend to view ‘their’ words as facts. Who exactly wrote what you cited here? Who’s the author and of what race? While the Savants may be knowledgeable their words have not been proven fact. Considering Argonians are too alien for even an Ayleid biologist to understand. If you played the Murkmire DLC storyline the Ayleids there cannot understand how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ as in again they are too alien. No solid evidence of inter breeding has been presented in ES only assumptions and ‘considerations’ besides the book in the Shivering Isles but like I said that was in a Daedric Plane so it contributes nothing to the topic.

They consider them races of man, on the basis that they can mate with one another. Savants in TES III are noted as, and I quote: ''"I am a savant. I am a man of wide learning and cosmopolitan tastes, a well-traveled man, educated, refined in manner, able to converse on various topics with authority, and a man ever ready to defend his honor, and the honor of my companions. In short, you see before you a gentleman. I can discourse upon history, speechcraft, language, and customs. And, for a fee, I offer training that will permit you to share a few of my many virtues.''

The Ayleids are not this ''all-mighty'' force who know everything there is to know. The Savants of TES III are alive during the late-Third Era. Where as that (quite obviously racist) book says one thing, a number of Savants claim differently. The Savants are also proven partially right, considering the whole Vitharn ordeal, and the situation of Agronak gro-Malog.

It being in the Shivering Isles lessens its value, because of what? Biological traits suddenly cease to exist in a plane of Oblivion?

Scythe_Mercer

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Key word there is ‘consider’ not to mention Imperials are not only racist but tend to view ‘their’ words as facts. Who exactly wrote what you cited here? Who’s the author and of what race? While the Savants may be knowledgeable their words have not been proven fact. Considering Argonians are too alien for even an Ayleid biologist to understand. If you played the Murkmire DLC storyline the Ayleids there cannot understand how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ as in again they are too alien. No solid evidence of inter breeding has been presented in ES only assumptions and ‘considerations’ besides the book in the Shivering Isles but like I said that was in a Daedric Plane so it contributes nothing to the topic.

They consider them races of man, on the basis that they can mate with one another. Savants in TES III are noted as, and I quote: ''"I am a savant. I am a man of wide learning and cosmopolitan tastes, a well-traveled man, educated, refined in manner, able to converse on various topics with authority, and a man ever ready to defend his honor, and the honor of my companions. In short, you see before you a gentleman. I can discourse upon history, speechcraft, language, and customs. And, for a fee, I offer training that will permit you to share a few of my many virtues.''

The Ayleids are not this ''all-mighty'' force who know everything there is to know. The Savants of TES III are alive during the late-Third Era. Where as that (quite obviously racist) book says one thing, a number of Savants claim differently. The Savants are also proven partially right, considering the whole Vitharn ordeal, and the situation of Agronak gro-Malog.

It being in the Shivering Isles lessens its value, because of what? Biological traits suddenly cease to exist in a plane of Oblivion?

Anyone can claim they are completely right or partially right. Just because one man or a group claims themselves to be true and right doesn’t they are it’s just an opinion they have of themselves. While the Ayleids are not ‘all mighty’ they certainly knew more about a various amount of subjects then normal races of Man (Imperials) It has been proven that Men and Mer can reproduce with each other and Khajiit is debatable even to this day. However, Argonians cannot due to their alien biology and connection to the Hist. Yes, the Fall of Vitharn being written in the Shivering Isles *does* lessen its value for it does not take place on Nirn where reality is *not* at the complete mercy of a Daedric Prince. In the Isles Sheogorath can do whatever he pleases to whoever he wants. If he wants to make an Argonian woman have a child with a Mer he *allowed* it to happen along with their marriage. If he wants to make a Redguard marathon runner run as slow as a snail he can, his word is law in the Isles. But, on Nirn reproduction between Argonians and other races have not been officially documented only rumored at best.

Scythe_Mercer

baltic1284 wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Key word there is ‘consider’ not to mention Imperials are not only racist but tend to view ‘their’ words as facts. Who exactly wrote what you cited here? Who’s the author and of what race? While the Savants may be knowledgeable their words have not been proven fact. Considering Argonians are too alien for even an Ayleid biologist to understand. If you played the Murkmire DLC storyline the Ayleids there cannot understand how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ as in again they are too alien. No solid evidence of inter breeding has been presented in ES only assumptions and ‘considerations’ besides the book in the Shivering Isles but like I said that was in a Daedric Plane so it contributes nothing to the topic.

I know how you feel tried to pull the same stunt in the Dragon discussion claiming much the same thing. My advice ifnore him and move on last I checked Man and Mer can have children, how the Bretons happened over a period of time but Man and Beastfold cant have children nor with Mer.

I read that discussion and both of your guys’ posts yes. I am just having a debate/discussion here. However, it’s quite silly imo to have the only evidence in this debate be the Savants. They themselves ‘claim’ to be the most educated and all knowing but that’s just their opinion of themselves. The rest of Tamriel surely wouldn’t agree. The Fall of Vitharn book in this is probably the most ridiculous lore book to rely on as it is written in a Daedric Plane where Nirn laws don’t apply only the Princes will and law are in control.

Bruccius

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

Not to sound like a ‘lore police’ but I don’t really think any of those can happen except 4 cause...Well eggs yeah. The other 3 no not at all. A lot of people will link this https://www.imperial-library.info/content/notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology however take note that this was written by AN IMPERIAL who are naturally biased and pretty ignorant of other races cultures and biology. The other book people might refer to is the Fall of Vitharn in which a female Argonian and an Altmer male have a child HOWEVER that book is written in the Shivering Isles a Princes domain in which his will is law anything he wants CAN happen so that book absolutely contributes nothing other then how messed up the Shivering Isles can be. Bottom line, no I do not think man and Mer can reproduce with Argonians they’re too biologically alien and the Hist already mocks the other races by having the Argonians appear humanoid.

You what?

''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another."
~Savants in TES III: Morrowind

Key word there is ‘consider’ not to mention Imperials are not only racist but tend to view ‘their’ words as facts. Who exactly wrote what you cited here? Who’s the author and of what race? While the Savants may be knowledgeable their words have not been proven fact. Considering Argonians are too alien for even an Ayleid biologist to understand. If you played the Murkmire DLC storyline the Ayleids there cannot understand how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ as in again they are too alien. No solid evidence of inter breeding has been presented in ES only assumptions and ‘considerations’ besides the book in the Shivering Isles but like I said that was in a Daedric Plane so it contributes nothing to the topic.

They consider them races of man, on the basis that they can mate with one another. Savants in TES III are noted as, and I quote: ''"I am a savant. I am a man of wide learning and cosmopolitan tastes, a well-traveled man, educated, refined in manner, able to converse on various topics with authority, and a man ever ready to defend his honor, and the honor of my companions. In short, you see before you a gentleman. I can discourse upon history, speechcraft, language, and customs. And, for a fee, I offer training that will permit you to share a few of my many virtues.''

The Ayleids are not this ''all-mighty'' force who know everything there is to know. The Savants of TES III are alive during the late-Third Era. Where as that (quite obviously racist) book says one thing, a number of Savants claim differently. The Savants are also proven partially right, considering the whole Vitharn ordeal, and the situation of Agronak gro-Malog.

It being in the Shivering Isles lessens its value, because of what? Biological traits suddenly cease to exist in a plane of Oblivion?

Anyone can claim they are completely right or partially right. Just because one man or a group claims themselves to be true and right doesn’t they are it’s just an opinion they have of themselves. While the Ayleids are not ‘all mighty’ they certainly knew more about a various amount of subjects then normal races of Man (Imperials) It has been proven that Men and Mer can reproduce with each other and Khajiit is debatable even to this day. However, Argonians cannot due to their alien biology and connection to the Hist. Yes, the Fall of Vitharn being written in the Shivering Isles *does* lessen its value for it does not take place on Nirn where reality is *not* at the complete mercy of a Daedric Prince. In the Isles Sheogorath can do whatever he pleases to whoever he wants. If he wants to make an Argonian woman have a child with a Mer he *allowed* it to happen along with their marriage. If he wants to make a Redguard marathon runner run as slow as a snail he can, his word is law in the Isles. But, on Nirn reproduction between Argonians and other races have not been officially documented only rumored at best.

But again... These Imperial scholars that consider all of them races of Man do so because they have concluded that these races can mate with one another. Until there is evidence that Sheogorath was involved with the childbirth, we have no reason to assume he was.

A scholar does not spread rumors. Again, just because it contradicts the claim of a (somewhat racist) book doesn't make it invalid. The book claims Orcs and the races of Man can't have offspring, while the opposite has literally been confirmed at this point.

PS: Even in TES III the citizens of Vvardenfell note the Savants as being wise:
''Perhaps you should consult with a Dunmer savant. Such learned men are better suited to puzzle out the riddle words of vision and prophecy."''
''I've never heard of such a weapon. Perhaps you should consult with a Dunmer savant about such things.''


To even quote the real life definition of a savant:
''a person with a high level of knowledge or skill, especially someone who is less able in other ways''
''a person of learning''
''A learned person, especially a distinguished scientist.''
''a person of profound or extensive learning; learned scholar.''

Claudman

@Bruccius Well the book in the Shivering Isles I should state hasn't actually been confirmed ingame and it kinda renders itself invalid when Sheogorath is the God of his own realm and any mortal who's taken by his madness is under his control. Take it as vampirism...Argonian Vampires are not under the control of the Hist, but under the control of Molag Bal instead.

Usually I'm on the agreeing end with you Bruccius, but I'll have to disagree. Scholars in TES are unreliable a fair amount of the time (especially Imperial ones, look at Summerset for example), especially when there are scholars contradicting those statements by stating that Argonians and Khajiit cannot reproduce with non-Argonians or non-Khajiit. It doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of a sense for the Argonians (who aren't from Nirn) to reproduce with a species they're completely alien to. There's a bit of a biological incompatibility as they are not from the same world. Argonians do not come from Ehlnofey, their souls don't even come from the dreamsleeve. If we are to consider this...Where would a Half-Argonians soul even go? Where would it come from? Why would the Hist care for it?

If Argonian biology was alien to the Ayleids, chances are it's alien to everyone else to. Khajiit are the only Betmer I can see having a chance to be able to mate with non-Khajiit...Mostly because they have furstocks like the Ohmes or Ohmes-Raht.

Bruccius

@Claudman
Being in a Daedric realm doesn't change biology though.

''Scholars in TES are unreliable'' very true. But how on earth does Summerset, or this topic, prove that? The Emmissaries of Reman Cyrodiil noted Summerset as pretty much the same thing as we got in ESO, and most Imperial Scholars disagree with the (racist) claims made in the book that's been used as an argument. The Bosmer and the Khajiit are said to have the same ancestor, with the Bosmer only becoming different due to their pact with Y'ffre.

We have two records of offspring which, according to the book, shouldn't have been possible.

SirAndy

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

Can man or mer interbreed with bestial races and successfully produce off-spring?

Pheefs

they have incompatible biology yeah, BUT...
I think they could solve it with magick, transform the male of the couple temporarily into the same species as the female.
we have lots of evidence that those type of transformations aren't just a "glamour"

So they can have kids sure, but not hybrids.

Claudman

@Bruccius But the Daedric Princes of the Daedric Realm can, because it is their domain and their rule that counts...Not the rule of Nirn or Mundus.
It isn't the Daedric Realm which changes this, but the Daedric Prince who changes it as the Daedric Prince now has control on both their body and soul. Remember, the Shivering Isles is the same realm where Cheese Atronachs roam and forks of mass destruction exist with the insanity that is the Wabbajack. Biology is order, but Sheogorath is unchained chaos, his entire domain is breaking order with hilarious chaos...Unless it's his realm of course.

Also it is evident that Daedric Princes are capable of changing biology of subjects they've claimed the souls of. Look at Molag Bal or Hircine who alter the biology, souls or bodies of their subjects with their foul curses, diseases and poisons.

Summerset was claimed to have buildings of malachite and it didn't, that's why I used it as an example...

And I agree, the Khajiit and Bosmer share a similar ancestor. I wasn't saying that the Khajiit were alien or unable, infact I was saying that it was possible (or there was a chance) that the Khajiit could have offspring because of their relation to the Bosmer. We just have no official documentation of it that is credible.

Claudman

Pheefs wrote: »

they have incompatible biology yeah, BUT...
I think they could solve it with magick, transform the male of the couple temporarily into the same species as the female.
we have lots of evidence that those type of transformations aren't just a "glamour"

So they can have kids sure, but not hybrids.

Magic isn't as simple as D&D magic in TES.
We actually have very few unreliable examples of this. Often polymorphing leads to a lot of unintended effects or transformations. TES magic is like a diceroll...You don't always get what you want. Morrowind used to have a "fizzle" system.