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Dear ZOS, kindly don’t take stealth away from the Bosmers. Here’s why.
Uryel
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Hello there. I have already voiced my opinion about that here and there, and not always calmly and kindly. Also, it was fragmented. I thought it would be best to gather it all in a civil way.
To make things clear, this is the ONLY change I am going to discuss here :
Please note that I left out the previous damage bonus from stealth or the new speed bonus from dodge roll, or any other change whatsoever. I’m ONLY discussing the removal of stealth. So here is my plead to retain stealth on Bosmers.
1 – Removing stealth goes against the lore
It might be weird to open a plead against stat changes with the lore, but it’s the Elder Scrolls we’re talking about here, not just any game. It’s one of the longest standing, most established game series, and certainly one with the richest and most beloved lore. So it does matter. Maybe not to everyone, but to some.
You guys have been using the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from the Bosmers, saying « they are good hunters so they need to see stuff », and thus you want to replace a bonus to stealth by a bonus to stealth detection. But that doesn’t make sense, neither lore-wise not hunt-wise.
As someone pointed elsewhere, a hunter is stealthy. Bosmers are hunters out of necessity from the Green Pact. Animals don’t sneak around, hunters do. It’s all about remaining hidden while the prey is blissfully unaware of your presence. Bosmers are exceptionnal hunters because they are amazing archers, even sometimes credited to having invented the bow, and because no one and nothing knows they are there before they strike. That's stealth at its finest.
But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.
Morrowind ? Stealthy Bosmers. Oblivion ? Stealthy Bosmers. Skyrim ? Stealthy Bosmers. Elder Scrolls Online, at least up to early 2019, and hopefully much later on ? Stealthy Bosmers.
But this could just be game habits and tropes, so let’s look at the lore behind it :
- The Jaqspurs are elite scout troops and hunters ("words and philosophy" book in the Elder Scrolls games), and a scout is... Stealthy, yes.
- They are known as thieves ("Valenwood : a study"), to the point even a bosmer shopkeeper will be wary of another bosmer entering their shop. And thieves are stealthy.
- They are known to be very adept at hiding, at the very least in woodlands ("Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion" and "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Wild Region").
- They are famous for their guerrila tactics, which require stealth. Couldn’t find the book that references it, though.
- Their most famous poem is titled "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding"
- They do worship Baan Dar, the trickster spirit they borrowed from the Khajiits.
- Their most well-known rite is "the rite of theft".
And so on. Seriously, if one was to boil down Bosmers to 3 points, it would be that they are amazing archers, they are amazing at stealth, and they don't eat or even damage any plant. Stealth is integral to Bosmers.
So please, do not use the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from them, it doesn’t work. Stealth is probably even MORE a part of the Bosmers than even their hunting ability. They have « the rite of theft », not « the rite of hunt ».
2 – This change is entirely useless in PvE and only marginally useful in PvP
As per @ZOS_Gilliam ‘s own words, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!) ».
Indeed, there are exactly ZERO enemies in PvE that do sneak. None that I have ever encountered, at least, and I’ve been playing for over 3 years now. The only times an enemy goes « sneaking » is when you meet a nightblade NPC that cloaks. So, in PvE, stealth detection is entirely useless, since nothing sneaks. Ever. As for the cloaking nightblade mob, you don’t need to detect stealth, since you KNOW they are coming at you while cloaked. You just need either an AoE damage or a timely block.
So, the new racial passive is absolutely, completely, entirely useless in PvE. And that’s made even worse by the fact that, aside from the insignificant +1% Alliance Point gain the Bretons get, there is no other racial passive that has no use in PvE.
As a PvE-only player, I am not pleased by a change that I percieved as only good for PvP, but others, more PvP-versed than I am, have commented that it is also useless in PvP. From what I understand, stealth detection is only marginally used in PvP, and having it on the Bosmers might even make things worse. One of the reported major annoyances I read about was the sniping sneaky bosmers archers. One of the most obvious ways to dispose of a sniper is to sneak upon them to backstab them, but this might be even more complicated if they see you coming even easier than before. But I really am not all that well versed in PvP, so I’ll let the experts discuss below if they wish so.
Whatever their point of view on the PvP part may be, it’s pretty obvious that this change has no benefit in PvE whatsoever, which would make the Bosmers the ONLY race that has a significant racial trait that has no effect in PvE.
3 – Most racial changes are adjustments, this one is a fundamental change
I understand changes do come when a balance patch happens. And for most of them, those changes seem to be fair game. Some might not be well recieved, others could be debated, but they are adjustments. They don’t really break or remove something entirely.
For instance, I’m not overly fond of the Nord change that replaces a percentage of damage reduction by a flat amount of physical / spell resistance, but that’s merely because my own Nord stamina sorcerer tank already stacked enormous amounts of resists, and I would much rather have a percentage reduction to top it all… But that doesn’t break anything. It’s fairly simple to adapt, and it stays within the same philosophy.
Removing stealth from Bosmers, however, is a complete paradigm shift. The idea is that « races should all be unique », but… Really, why should they ? Lore-wise (again, I know), Khajiits and Bosmers have always been contenders for the title of the sneakiest thief. It’s part of their racial identity and has been for almost 3 decades.
But let’s leave the lore out, I’ve already discussed that point. Let’s talk gameplay. For the past years, people have been creating bosmers taking into account the fact they are stealthy. Could have been because they wanted to use it, or simply as « oh well, I’m not gonna use it, bummer, but Bosmers are cool », but it was taken into account. Assuming people created a Bosmer for what they bring to the table and not for the cool factor, it’s likely stealth was a desired characteristic.
By entirely removing the stealth bonus from a race, you’re likely removing the reason some characters were created, and giving free race change tokens to people isn’t going to fix that. Not with one token per account, and even if you were providing one token per character it wouldn’t fix the issue, because race change is a solution only for people who only care about stats and nothing else. That’s not everyone.
Minmaxers and highly competitive players might be willing to switch out of a race and into another in the blink of an eye to squeeze that 2% bonus damage or whatever, because that’s all they care about, but are they everyone ? Nope. Are they the majority ? I doubt it. One could think they are, based on forum activity, but let’s be realistic, most people NEVER come to the forums, especially the casual players. It took me THREE YEARS to come here, and that was ONLY because you guys threatened my favorite gameplay to be taken away from my favorite character.
So, aside from people who play by the stats only, here’s what it feels like : people grow attached to their characters. They can get around a minor stat adjustment or an annoying quirck, but something unwanted that radically changes how their character plays is generally unwelcome. And of course, looks are part of the identity of a characters. It’s even more important after years of costume collecting, dyes unlocking and whatnot. Many people wouldn’t change their Bosmer into a Khajiit, not because Khajiits are ugly or whatever, but because it would break the character’s identity, the whole feel of playing it. Switching race is only fun if you WANT to do so, not if you have to do so to retain the same gameplay. And not changing race but losing a major part of your character identity nonetheless isn't fun either.
Removing stealth from the Bosmers means that, for a lot of people, their characters will have to change into something that feels entirely different, will have to change gameplay completely, or go to extreme lengths to retain the same gameplay (more about that below). And that is NOT fun.
Also, if you guys talk about adding variety, I don’t see how encouraging people from 2 different races to play a single race will encourage variety.
4 – Stealth is part of the gameplay, don’t treat it as if it doesn’t exist
There is a huge contradiction in that update. One one side, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game », so you’re taking it away from the Bosmers, but on the other hand, you’re boosting Khajiit’s stealth. Doesn’t make much sense to me aside from the sheer will to force an artificial, stat-based-only difference between the two races, even though they do share this trait in the lore and have been sharing it in games for almost 3 decades. Stealth exists, stealth is part of the gameplay, and stealth is helluva fun
Stealth isn’t a major part of the gameplay, I’ll give you that. But it isn’t negligible either. There are TWO entire DLCs that revolve around sneaking, a huge amount of items that exist only to be stolen, and a whole justice system that benefits from being able to avoid being seen by the guards. There are achievements and housing items to unlock with said achievements that call for picking merchant lockboxes. So, it’s entirely possible that a Bosmer (or Khajiit) character was created with that in mind, to be a thief / assassin. I know mine was, at least.
Sure, stealth has no place in trials and most « end game » content, but… Does everyone focus on that ? I don’t think so. And even so, it’s entirely possible to have separate characters for different contents, for instance one really optimised character for competitive gameplay, and a stealthy little Bosmer for when you feel like picking pockets and are curious about what’s behind that locked door.
And even in « normal » gameplay, understand non-competitive PvE, stealth can be very useful, or just fun. Bit in a hurry but really need that skyshard ? Avoid all combat and stealth your way through the delve. Farming some gear that drops in overland zones ? Stealth your way to the delve / public dungeon boss. You can pickpocket easier. You can breeze through restricted area, heist, assassination missions and whatnot. This, of course, means a slightly less powerfull character in intense combat situations, but it is a gameplay choice that is available, and a pretty efficient one at that. If you have a bounty you can just sneak into town anyway. You can’t do all that without the +3 meters bonus. And that gameplay choice won’t be available anymore to Bosmers if the update goes live. Be Khajiit, or play entirely differently.
For a comparison, here is an exemple. I play a Bosmer stealthy character, and my wife plays a Breton stealthy character. We both use the same gear, one set that boosts our stealth by 2 more meters, and one that removes the movement penalty when sneaking. While she can sneak, I can sneak ALOT easier and better. I can come so close to a guard that I could scratch his back with the point of a short sword, but she can’t. If she comes this close, she’s caught. It doesn’t mean she can’t sneak around, but in many situations where my character can go undetected, hers can’t. Her current Breton character stealth abilities is tomorrow’s Bosmer stealth ability.
3 meters makes a HUGE difference in PvE, when you're sneaking about. There is currently no gear that gives such a high bonus. Stacking stealth gear, you can get +4 meters. If you want to retain mobility, you either have to be a vampire at stage 4, and / or a magblade. There is a set that removes stealth movement penalty, though, but it doesn't have a bonus to detection radius, meaning that by gear only, you get +4 meters OR +2 meters and no penalty.
If that change goes live, the only way to replicate that level of stealth with a Bosmer would be to be a magbalde and / or a vampire for the movement penalty, and TWO sets that give stealth radius bonus. And we'd still be short of a 1 meter bonus, still making stealth slightly more difficult. Also, those specific sets are stamina sets, effectively ruling out the magblade. As far as I remember, there is only one dropped set that gives that sort of stealth bonus in light armour. None craftable. That doesn’t leave much room for character customisation. Also, as stated before, character looks might matter, and being a vampire stuck on stage 4 to retain your gameplay might not appeal to everyone. Not even mentionning the drawbacks that inherently come with being a vampire.
Basically, if that change goes live, stealthy Bosmers are screwed. They will be left underperforming in stealth even though it's one of the most defining traits of the race, with no means to compensate by gear only. Either they will get to +4 meters bonus instead of +5 or +7, or +2 and retain mobility, or +4 and mobility IF they are a vampire or a magblade. And that is if they go full sneaky. I fail to see where this adds any "choice value". Wanna sneak ? Be Khajiit.
This update will kill the fun of all casual player who merely enjoys stealing sh*t and escaping the law. Among other things
5 – How to avoid that problem
You get it by now, if you read everything up until here, I’m advocating for the complete removal of the new « Hunter’s Eye » increase to stealth detection, and for keeping the reduced stealth detection radius from « Stealthy » as it is. I’m not even talking about keeping the 10% bonus damage done in stealth. Change everything you wish, I don’t mind, so long as the stealth detection radius that has no use whatsoever doesn’t make it to live, and that the bonus to stealth is kept.
But… IF it goes live anyway… At the very least provide us with another way to retain that bonus. Someone suggested that adding a stealth bonus to the Legerdemain skill line would allow to compensate, and that’s not a bad idea. That would call for a slight reduction in Khajiit racial stealth reduction, they already get a huge boost from the new passive, if they stack it with some world skill line, they’ll be properly invisible. Maybe, if you guys go that way, you could give them back some of their sustain and lower their stealth bonus ?
I don’t know what other solution would be best. A Legerdemain bonus would certainly make stealth available to everyone, and that would be pretty nice too. But the simplest solution is to drop that ridiculous stealth detection bonus that, again, has no use whatsoever, and keep the stealth bonus as it is.
Please, ZOS, don’t break Bosmer stealth based on a ill-percieved need to differenciate races and make everything unique. We have almost 3 decades and 5 games worth of lore and gameplay advocating for stealthy Bosmers, and there is no need for that to change. Especially not after lots of people spent years building their characters around that. Please do reconsider.
Edited by Uryel on 25 January 2019 23:13 To make things clear, this is the ONLY change I am going to discuss here :
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m […] → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m.
Please note that I left out the previous damage bonus from stealth or the new speed bonus from dodge roll, or any other change whatsoever. I’m ONLY discussing the removal of stealth. So here is my plead to retain stealth on Bosmers.
1 – Removing stealth goes against the lore
It might be weird to open a plead against stat changes with the lore, but it’s the Elder Scrolls we’re talking about here, not just any game. It’s one of the longest standing, most established game series, and certainly one with the richest and most beloved lore. So it does matter. Maybe not to everyone, but to some.
You guys have been using the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from the Bosmers, saying « they are good hunters so they need to see stuff », and thus you want to replace a bonus to stealth by a bonus to stealth detection. But that doesn’t make sense, neither lore-wise not hunt-wise.
As someone pointed elsewhere, a hunter is stealthy. Bosmers are hunters out of necessity from the Green Pact. Animals don’t sneak around, hunters do. It’s all about remaining hidden while the prey is blissfully unaware of your presence. Bosmers are exceptionnal hunters because they are amazing archers, even sometimes credited to having invented the bow, and because no one and nothing knows they are there before they strike. That's stealth at its finest.
But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.
Morrowind ? Stealthy Bosmers. Oblivion ? Stealthy Bosmers. Skyrim ? Stealthy Bosmers. Elder Scrolls Online, at least up to early 2019, and hopefully much later on ? Stealthy Bosmers.
But this could just be game habits and tropes, so let’s look at the lore behind it :
- The Jaqspurs are elite scout troops and hunters ("words and philosophy" book in the Elder Scrolls games), and a scout is... Stealthy, yes.
- They are known as thieves ("Valenwood : a study"), to the point even a bosmer shopkeeper will be wary of another bosmer entering their shop. And thieves are stealthy.
- They are known to be very adept at hiding, at the very least in woodlands ("Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion" and "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Wild Region").
- They are famous for their guerrila tactics, which require stealth. Couldn’t find the book that references it, though.
- Their most famous poem is titled "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding"
- They do worship Baan Dar, the trickster spirit they borrowed from the Khajiits.
- Their most well-known rite is "the rite of theft".
And so on. Seriously, if one was to boil down Bosmers to 3 points, it would be that they are amazing archers, they are amazing at stealth, and they don't eat or even damage any plant. Stealth is integral to Bosmers.
So please, do not use the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from them, it doesn’t work. Stealth is probably even MORE a part of the Bosmers than even their hunting ability. They have « the rite of theft », not « the rite of hunt ».
2 – This change is entirely useless in PvE and only marginally useful in PvP
As per @ZOS_Gilliam ‘s own words, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!) ».
Indeed, there are exactly ZERO enemies in PvE that do sneak. None that I have ever encountered, at least, and I’ve been playing for over 3 years now. The only times an enemy goes « sneaking » is when you meet a nightblade NPC that cloaks. So, in PvE, stealth detection is entirely useless, since nothing sneaks. Ever. As for the cloaking nightblade mob, you don’t need to detect stealth, since you KNOW they are coming at you while cloaked. You just need either an AoE damage or a timely block.
So, the new racial passive is absolutely, completely, entirely useless in PvE. And that’s made even worse by the fact that, aside from the insignificant +1% Alliance Point gain the Bretons get, there is no other racial passive that has no use in PvE.
As a PvE-only player, I am not pleased by a change that I percieved as only good for PvP, but others, more PvP-versed than I am, have commented that it is also useless in PvP. From what I understand, stealth detection is only marginally used in PvP, and having it on the Bosmers might even make things worse. One of the reported major annoyances I read about was the sniping sneaky bosmers archers. One of the most obvious ways to dispose of a sniper is to sneak upon them to backstab them, but this might be even more complicated if they see you coming even easier than before. But I really am not all that well versed in PvP, so I’ll let the experts discuss below if they wish so.
Whatever their point of view on the PvP part may be, it’s pretty obvious that this change has no benefit in PvE whatsoever, which would make the Bosmers the ONLY race that has a significant racial trait that has no effect in PvE.
3 – Most racial changes are adjustments, this one is a fundamental change
I understand changes do come when a balance patch happens. And for most of them, those changes seem to be fair game. Some might not be well recieved, others could be debated, but they are adjustments. They don’t really break or remove something entirely.
For instance, I’m not overly fond of the Nord change that replaces a percentage of damage reduction by a flat amount of physical / spell resistance, but that’s merely because my own Nord stamina sorcerer tank already stacked enormous amounts of resists, and I would much rather have a percentage reduction to top it all… But that doesn’t break anything. It’s fairly simple to adapt, and it stays within the same philosophy.
Removing stealth from Bosmers, however, is a complete paradigm shift. The idea is that « races should all be unique », but… Really, why should they ? Lore-wise (again, I know), Khajiits and Bosmers have always been contenders for the title of the sneakiest thief. It’s part of their racial identity and has been for almost 3 decades.
But let’s leave the lore out, I’ve already discussed that point. Let’s talk gameplay. For the past years, people have been creating bosmers taking into account the fact they are stealthy. Could have been because they wanted to use it, or simply as « oh well, I’m not gonna use it, bummer, but Bosmers are cool », but it was taken into account. Assuming people created a Bosmer for what they bring to the table and not for the cool factor, it’s likely stealth was a desired characteristic.
By entirely removing the stealth bonus from a race, you’re likely removing the reason some characters were created, and giving free race change tokens to people isn’t going to fix that. Not with one token per account, and even if you were providing one token per character it wouldn’t fix the issue, because race change is a solution only for people who only care about stats and nothing else. That’s not everyone.
Minmaxers and highly competitive players might be willing to switch out of a race and into another in the blink of an eye to squeeze that 2% bonus damage or whatever, because that’s all they care about, but are they everyone ? Nope. Are they the majority ? I doubt it. One could think they are, based on forum activity, but let’s be realistic, most people NEVER come to the forums, especially the casual players. It took me THREE YEARS to come here, and that was ONLY because you guys threatened my favorite gameplay to be taken away from my favorite character.
So, aside from people who play by the stats only, here’s what it feels like : people grow attached to their characters. They can get around a minor stat adjustment or an annoying quirck, but something unwanted that radically changes how their character plays is generally unwelcome. And of course, looks are part of the identity of a characters. It’s even more important after years of costume collecting, dyes unlocking and whatnot. Many people wouldn’t change their Bosmer into a Khajiit, not because Khajiits are ugly or whatever, but because it would break the character’s identity, the whole feel of playing it. Switching race is only fun if you WANT to do so, not if you have to do so to retain the same gameplay. And not changing race but losing a major part of your character identity nonetheless isn't fun either.
Removing stealth from the Bosmers means that, for a lot of people, their characters will have to change into something that feels entirely different, will have to change gameplay completely, or go to extreme lengths to retain the same gameplay (more about that below). And that is NOT fun.
Also, if you guys talk about adding variety, I don’t see how encouraging people from 2 different races to play a single race will encourage variety.
4 – Stealth is part of the gameplay, don’t treat it as if it doesn’t exist
There is a huge contradiction in that update. One one side, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game », so you’re taking it away from the Bosmers, but on the other hand, you’re boosting Khajiit’s stealth. Doesn’t make much sense to me aside from the sheer will to force an artificial, stat-based-only difference between the two races, even though they do share this trait in the lore and have been sharing it in games for almost 3 decades. Stealth exists, stealth is part of the gameplay, and stealth is helluva fun
Stealth isn’t a major part of the gameplay, I’ll give you that. But it isn’t negligible either. There are TWO entire DLCs that revolve around sneaking, a huge amount of items that exist only to be stolen, and a whole justice system that benefits from being able to avoid being seen by the guards. There are achievements and housing items to unlock with said achievements that call for picking merchant lockboxes. So, it’s entirely possible that a Bosmer (or Khajiit) character was created with that in mind, to be a thief / assassin. I know mine was, at least.
Sure, stealth has no place in trials and most « end game » content, but… Does everyone focus on that ? I don’t think so. And even so, it’s entirely possible to have separate characters for different contents, for instance one really optimised character for competitive gameplay, and a stealthy little Bosmer for when you feel like picking pockets and are curious about what’s behind that locked door.
And even in « normal » gameplay, understand non-competitive PvE, stealth can be very useful, or just fun. Bit in a hurry but really need that skyshard ? Avoid all combat and stealth your way through the delve. Farming some gear that drops in overland zones ? Stealth your way to the delve / public dungeon boss. You can pickpocket easier. You can breeze through restricted area, heist, assassination missions and whatnot. This, of course, means a slightly less powerfull character in intense combat situations, but it is a gameplay choice that is available, and a pretty efficient one at that. If you have a bounty you can just sneak into town anyway. You can’t do all that without the +3 meters bonus. And that gameplay choice won’t be available anymore to Bosmers if the update goes live. Be Khajiit, or play entirely differently.
For a comparison, here is an exemple. I play a Bosmer stealthy character, and my wife plays a Breton stealthy character. We both use the same gear, one set that boosts our stealth by 2 more meters, and one that removes the movement penalty when sneaking. While she can sneak, I can sneak ALOT easier and better. I can come so close to a guard that I could scratch his back with the point of a short sword, but she can’t. If she comes this close, she’s caught. It doesn’t mean she can’t sneak around, but in many situations where my character can go undetected, hers can’t. Her current Breton character stealth abilities is tomorrow’s Bosmer stealth ability.
3 meters makes a HUGE difference in PvE, when you're sneaking about. There is currently no gear that gives such a high bonus. Stacking stealth gear, you can get +4 meters. If you want to retain mobility, you either have to be a vampire at stage 4, and / or a magblade. There is a set that removes stealth movement penalty, though, but it doesn't have a bonus to detection radius, meaning that by gear only, you get +4 meters OR +2 meters and no penalty.
If that change goes live, the only way to replicate that level of stealth with a Bosmer would be to be a magbalde and / or a vampire for the movement penalty, and TWO sets that give stealth radius bonus. And we'd still be short of a 1 meter bonus, still making stealth slightly more difficult. Also, those specific sets are stamina sets, effectively ruling out the magblade. As far as I remember, there is only one dropped set that gives that sort of stealth bonus in light armour. None craftable. That doesn’t leave much room for character customisation. Also, as stated before, character looks might matter, and being a vampire stuck on stage 4 to retain your gameplay might not appeal to everyone. Not even mentionning the drawbacks that inherently come with being a vampire.
Basically, if that change goes live, stealthy Bosmers are screwed. They will be left underperforming in stealth even though it's one of the most defining traits of the race, with no means to compensate by gear only. Either they will get to +4 meters bonus instead of +5 or +7, or +2 and retain mobility, or +4 and mobility IF they are a vampire or a magblade. And that is if they go full sneaky. I fail to see where this adds any "choice value". Wanna sneak ? Be Khajiit.
This update will kill the fun of all casual player who merely enjoys stealing sh*t and escaping the law. Among other things
5 – How to avoid that problem
You get it by now, if you read everything up until here, I’m advocating for the complete removal of the new « Hunter’s Eye » increase to stealth detection, and for keeping the reduced stealth detection radius from « Stealthy » as it is. I’m not even talking about keeping the 10% bonus damage done in stealth. Change everything you wish, I don’t mind, so long as the stealth detection radius that has no use whatsoever doesn’t make it to live, and that the bonus to stealth is kept.
But… IF it goes live anyway… At the very least provide us with another way to retain that bonus. Someone suggested that adding a stealth bonus to the Legerdemain skill line would allow to compensate, and that’s not a bad idea. That would call for a slight reduction in Khajiit racial stealth reduction, they already get a huge boost from the new passive, if they stack it with some world skill line, they’ll be properly invisible. Maybe, if you guys go that way, you could give them back some of their sustain and lower their stealth bonus ?
I don’t know what other solution would be best. A Legerdemain bonus would certainly make stealth available to everyone, and that would be pretty nice too. But the simplest solution is to drop that ridiculous stealth detection bonus that, again, has no use whatsoever, and keep the stealth bonus as it is.
Please, ZOS, don’t break Bosmer stealth based on a ill-percieved need to differenciate races and make everything unique. We have almost 3 decades and 5 games worth of lore and gameplay advocating for stealthy Bosmers, and there is no need for that to change. Especially not after lots of people spent years building their characters around that. Please do reconsider.
12
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gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭This one aproves bosmer change. Although i was a bit frustated about Dunmer DK, now i realise that is a good choice not to lock a race to a class.Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language5 -
Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP, great post. There are many of us who feel the exact same way. I’m hopeful they will not ignore this. This change should never make it to live.3 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭I agree with the points you made and echo the same with regards to Dunmer elemental damage. The different races having unique abilities, strengths and weaknesses adds diversity and flavor to the game and various builds. Taking them away in this manner decreases diversity and goes against lore which are the opposite of the balance update's intended results.
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn1 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In addition to what @Uryel said, I would like to look at this change more in terms of how it fails to achieve its stated objective. Here's the entirety of the change:ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »b]Wood Elf[/b]- Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
- Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
- Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
- Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
- A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.
Because the Khajiit stealthy passive is mentioned, I'll quote it and its replacement here, too:ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »[*]Stealthy: Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 750.
[*]Carnage: Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% → Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m. [/list]
Back to wood elf changes.
The free passive doesn't change. I have no comment.
Y'ffre's Endurance: Replaces a percentage stamina recovery with a flat number. Comment: I think the bean counters and number crunchers worked out that this is a slight buff, so ok. The bottom line is, it was a stamina recovery boost before and a stamina recovery boost now, so ok.
Resist Affliction: the percentage of extra stamina becomes a (generous) flat number, the poison and disease resistance becomes a resistance to only poison and immunity to the poisoned effect. Comment: there is room for some back and forth as to who should be immune to disease and who should be immune to poison between the Bosmer and Argonians, but all-in-all I don't really have much preference so long as both races have some kind of immunity along these lines whether it's all-of-one or part of one, part of another. The old one was fine, the new one is fine, either way.
Stealthy: This was actually shared, both Khajiit and Bosmer had the same exact passive, though Khajiit had it as their second while Bosmer had it as their third. Both races had a bonus to being able to hide and had a bonus to damage out of stealth. In the new versions, both races lose the bonus to damage out of stealth and get something new in return: Bosmer get a roll-dodge speed buff, Khajiit get a new buff to all of their stats. Khajiit keep the 3m hiding bonus, and add 2m to it, and move the buff to their third passive. Bosmer lose the hiding bonus completely, and add a 3m detection bonus. Comments: the rest of this post. Buckle up.
An astute observer will note that I did not use the phrase "detection Radius" which is used for both the Khajiit and Bosmer passives. That is because it is ambiguous, and used in two distinct ways. One way is that it is harder for other people to detect you when you are in hiding (original and new Khajiit passives), the other is that it is easier for you to detect other people when they are in hiding (new Bosmer passive). I will refer to these as 'hiding bonus' for the Khajiit and originally (because it is) and 'detection bonus' for the Bosmer (because it is, or would be if anything in PVE bothered to hide).
As I mentioned, both races lost the bonus to damage out of stealth. Both races replaced that with something completely new: roll-dodge or stat boost. That's fine. However, the problem comes with the hiding bonus of the original passive. Khajiit keep that bonus, and add another bonus on top of it: they have the 3m bonus to hiding from before and add another 2m to that. However, Bosmer lose the bonus to hiding in its entirety. This directly and completely contradicts the stated goal of supporting "that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." No part of the Bosmers' original passive survives, at all. This is a problem.
The fix to this problem: There two parts. The easy part is obvious; Khajiit kept the 3m hiding bonus and added something to it (more of the same, but still true), so Bosmer should keep their 3m hiding bonus and add something different. Which they could do with the 3m detection bonus. Now, both races keep part of the original passive but in different ways. It is easy, from a lore perspective, to quibble over who should get what. Khajiit traditionally had a racial perception boost with the Night Eye ability and in most previous games had the smaller hiding bonus. However, Bosmer are repeatedly referred to as being excellent scouts, and part of being a scout is detecting hidden threats -- but a scout who is seen is as useless as no scout at all (worse in some ways). So this can easily go either way.
The harder part of the fix would be to add stealth/counter-stealth gameplay in PVE. There are some places where this could be done fairly easily. Around bandit, goblin, and ashlander camps you can see sentries crouching on the outskirts of the camp. Put them in stealth, and *boom* you can have counter-stealth gameplay in PVE. Other places it could be done, but would need more mechanics. Like, you could either sneak past a bunch of mobs to pull a lever to debuff the big-bad in a dungeon or you could fight past the mobs to do the same thing, or just go MDK the bad with all of its buffs active. Or if you kill the hidden sentries you can catch the big-bad napping before it can get all of its defenses up and have an easier fight against it. It should never be MANDATORY to be able to stealth and/or counter-stealth, but it should be something that would be nice and of some use.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dear OP,
ZOS should not give stealth back to Bosmers as they mentioned they want every race to be different and have thier own flavour. Most Khajits are by profession Thieves and keep stealth bonus.
So you should adjust with changes and understand that all your favourite Race can not have what you want.Edited by Lord_Eomer on 26 January 2019 05:260 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lord_Dexter wrote: »Dear OP,
ZOS should not give stealth back to Bosmers as they mentioned they want every race to be different and have thier own flavour. Most Khajits are by profession Thieves and keep stealth bonus.
So you should adjust with changes and understand that all your favourite Race can not have what you want.
I'll accept that when Bretons no longer have any bonus to magic. Bonus to magic is an Altmer thing.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Uryel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lord_Dexter wrote: »Dear OP,
ZOS should not give stealth back to Bosmers as they mentioned they want every race to be different and have thier own flavour. Most Khajits are by profession Thieves and keep stealth bonus.
So you should adjust with changes and understand that all your favourite Race can not have what you want.
I know what they want, but what I am saying is that it's a bad idea on that point. Especially with such a bull***t reason like "they are good hunters so it fits the lore". Looks like the person who had this idea doesn't know the lore, and has no idea what hunting is like, either.
From your answer, I must assume that you replied to the title of the thread alone and didn't read my whole post. I'm trying to make a point, here, I'm not whining.
Most Khajiits are thieves by profession ? Well, so are most Bosmers. That "hunter" thing is bull***t.
In every Elder Scrolls ever, both Khajiits and Bosmers had bonuses to stealth, and as stated above by @Cundu_Ertur , the Bosmers' stealth bonus has always been historically higher than that of the Khajiits. And Khajiits were the one with the Night Eye bonus, meaning if one race was to get a bonus to stealth detection, it would be more logical that the Khajiits get it.
Also, there is a breed of Khajiits, the "Ohmes", that is pretty much undistinguishable from the Bosmers, to the point they need to paint their face with cat-like markings to avoid the confusion. So yeah, let's make sure we set the races well appart, eh ? Is my sarcasm obvious enough, or should I underline it even more ?
But more importantly, stealth detection is a really bad and useless bonus with no use whatsoever in PvE, since there are no enemies that do sneak. Meanwhile stealth is either marginally useful or at the core of the gameplay, depending on how the character was built and what for.
If there is suddenly a need to give entirely different flavours to races that really had not much in common stat-wise beside their stealth ability, but do share cultural similarities and even sometimes apparence, something that was never percieved by anyone as a problem for almost 3 decades and 5 solo games, and for the almost 5 years ESO has been available, and this all of a sudden because the maths team whims it so.... Then surely there is a better way to do it than by breaking characters finely crafted and tuned over the years and expecting people will be okay with a race change token.
At the very, very least, if stealth is taken away anyway, let's have it replaced with something that actually has use. And add a way to retain stealth, like a passive in the Legerdemain skill line, or the Thieves line, whatever.5
