Lore breaking skins

TiZzA93

I know lots of other skins are lore breaking but most of them make it out that its illusion spell etc.
BUT the 2 xan meer crate skins wtf they r described as being actual skins so WHY r they available to all races zos say they want to follow lore well hello lizard elves humans hahjiit

Claudman

Skins in an MMO are never lore-friendly (unless you're using them for the correct corresponding races or saying it's a Daedra or something). They're just skins.

Also why did you make two of these threads?

Vaz2013

For Argonians it's skin, for everyone else it's an illusion. Done.

RaddlemanNumber7

Short answer: No, IMHO the skins absolutely do not go against lore.

Here's why I think that...

All our player character's are instances of "The Vestige". The Vestige is a magical construct not a normal, living person. The Vestige has transcended normality in the same way that they have transcended mortality. Those rules simply do not apply.

As far as I can remember there is no lore, either written or spoken in-game, regarding the outward form of The Vestige. No precedents have been set for The Vestige in other TES games.

But, there is empirical evidence...

From what we can see in the game, The Vestige is able to change their appearance, gender and race pretty much at will (you only have to log out and use a token because that is the way it is monetised). There are also skins and polymorphs that The Vestige can put on and off at will inside the game. The simple truth is that The Vestige is a shape-shifter. The Vestige is able to change their own morphotype without the slightest expenditure of resources.

The use of skins and polymorphs by The Vestige is almost like a skill. The Vestige can be seen to acquire new skins/polymorphs when they come into contact with new things in game, as if learning how to do it, e.g. Dro'Mathra Khajiit skin is learnt when fighting in Maw of Larkhaj, ebony skin is learnt when exposed to false ebony vapour in Vvardenfell, Kothringi skeleton polymorph is learnt from that quest in Shadowfen. Now, in Murkmire, The Vestige has encountered Bright Throat and Naga Argonians and has learned how to imitate their skins. The principle is the same.There's nothing new here.

The other point to make is that, judging from their words and actions, NPC's cannot see the outward appearance of The Vestige. Not even living gods or daedric princes. So, I think it is fair to surmise that The Vestige's nature is being cloaked by some higher power. Perhaps the same misdirection that the "Missing" God uses to hide himself is also being used on The Vestige to trick NPC's into believing that when they look at The Vestige they see nothing out of the ordinary. That is why NPC's never react as one might expect when, for example, they are accosted by a stage 4 vampire orc dressed only in a pink towel and flowery bathing cap. I'm sure Nords would pass comment if they ever saw such a thing.

Claudman

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Short answer: No, IMHO the skins absolutely do not go against lore.

Here's why I think that...

All our player character's are instances of "The Vestige". The Vestige is a magical construct not a normal, living person. The Vestige has transcended normality in the same way that they have transcended mortality. Those rules simply do not apply.

As far as I can remember there is no lore, either written or spoken in-game, regarding the outward form of The Vestige. No precedents have been set for The Vestige in other TES games.

But, there is empirical evidence...

From what we can see in the game, The Vestige is able to change their appearance, gender and race pretty much at will (you only have to log out and use a token because that is the way it is monetised). There are also skins and polymorphs that The Vestige can put on and off at will inside the game. The simple truth is that The Vestige is a shape-shifter. The Vestige is able to change their own morphotype without the slightest expenditure of resources.

The use of skins and polymorphs by The Vestige is almost like a skill. The Vestige can be seen to acquire new skins/polymorphs when they come into contact with new things in game, as if learning how to do it, e.g. Dro'Mathra Khajiit skin is learnt when fighting in Maw of Larkhaj, ebony skin is learnt when exposed to false ebony vapour in Vvardenfell, Kothringi skeleton polymorph is learnt from that quest in Shadowfen. Now, in Murkmire, The Vestige has encountered Bright Throat and Naga Argonians and has learned how to imitate their skins. The principle is the same.There's nothing new here.

The other point to make is that, judging from their words and actions, NPC's cannot see the outward appearance of The Vestige. Not even living gods or daedric princes. So, I think it is fair to surmise that The Vestige's nature is being cloaked by some higher power. Perhaps the same misdirection that the "Missing" God uses to hide himself is also being used on The Vestige to trick NPC's into believing that when they look at The Vestige they see nothing out of the ordinary. That is why NPC's never react as one might expect when, for example, they are accosted by a stage 4 vampire orc dressed only in a pink towel and flowery bathing cap. I'm sure Nords would pass comment if they ever saw such a thing.

Gameplay =/= Lore.
I guess the Hero of Kvatch can climb the Imperial Tower only using paintbrushes...

UppGRAYxDD

Khajiit does not break lore...khajiit just has bad case of the Knahaten Flu....

Bruccius

@Claudman
Indeed, gameplay =/= lore.

But skins are not something like paint brushes to be used as a bug. They are put in there by the developers for precisely that reason.

Like it or not, but their existence is fact. Wether the Vestige did, or did not, look like it, well, that's up to your headcanon.

Ajaxandriel

Or the Vestige is simply a concept, that thousands of actual characters can mantle at some degree.

TiZzA93 wrote: »

zos say they want to follow lore well hello lizard elves humans hahjiit

Maybe this is the appearance of the Tsaesci! XD (just kidding)
Maybe some awkward gift of the Hist?

Vaz2013 wrote: »

For Argonians it's skin, for everyone else it's an illusion. Done.

Fair enough

Korah_Eaglecry

I chalk this all up to the Theme Park MMO approach. We are getting a very watered down story that is very much get on the ride and keep your hands and feet inside while moving. You can buy all the sweet merchandise you want along the way. But youre not going to get the world impacting decisions, or powerful story that you would be used to in a single player game. All the while the stuffed animals, balloons and tshirts are going to start to become less and less about the theme of the park and more about what the average person reacts to. Mostly colors and weird things that have never been seen in the lore before. And often enough, those very people will defend it by saying "Its a fantasy!" or "Its magic!". Because they dont want to put too much thought into it, or have to admit that the company can predict their behavior to a T and that they are that predictable.

MissBizz

I was pretty sad about those one actually. I was totally ready to buy them thinking they would just add the paint to me...

then my altmer has scales and I screamed and...

well let's just say I'm not so excited anymore.

Bruccius

MissBizz wrote: »

I was pretty sad about those one actually. I was totally ready to buy them thinking they would just add the paint to me...

then my altmer has scales and I screamed and...

well let's just say I'm not so excited anymore.

Eyy, it's you. You upload on YouTube, right? Either that or I'm subscribed to someone who nicked your name.

On topic: What does an Altmer with scales look like?

Starlock

The skins in general don't seem to cater to those concerned with characterization, storytelling, lore, and role play just in general. There are a few that kind of do - when used correctly like this one - but for the most part they do not have that aim. Increased cash shop monetization and stylization has introduced more and more aesthetics that clash with the original design of the game. It is what it is.

eso_nya

u came to the skins before your immersion was broken? O.O

If u crossbreed the worst reskin idea since the beginning of crowncrates with "not even trying to find a propper name" u get the "camel-lizard steed".

And if u than run out of ideas for funny descriptions after the 2nd of 6 mounts, u end up with:
"Since a Guar is already a swamp reptile mount [or Lizard-Lizard Steed], why create Lizard-Steeds shaped like a Guar? Isn't that redundant?" and u might start asking yourself "Why rnt your Lizard mounts, shaped like lizards?"

Try to ignore "Almost every stablemaster of the Marsh has fine scaly lizard-mounts available for purchase", cause, no they dont. They only have the basic horses.

Is making new meshes *cough* Wamasu *cough* really that hard? Or is that the kind of thing a not-happy artist writes when marketing had unsmart demands? Picking up your deskphone and saying "Hello? Security? Theres a weird she-human in my office talking gibberish! Can u please come and remove it?" will prolly not save your project, but atleast u had a good laugh.

Kajuratus

Well, Argonians looked less lizard like in Arena, so on a human or elf race you could make these work. Khajiit though... yeah, its a bit weird.

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Short answer: No, IMHO the skins absolutely do not go against lore.

Here's why I think that...

All our player character's are instances of "The Vestige". The Vestige is a magical construct not a normal, living person. The Vestige has transcended normality in the same way that they have transcended mortality. Those rules simply do not apply.

As far as I can remember there is no lore, either written or spoken in-game, regarding the outward form of The Vestige. No precedents have been set for The Vestige in other TES games.

But, there is empirical evidence...

From what we can see in the game, The Vestige is able to change their appearance, gender and race pretty much at will (you only have to log out and use a token because that is the way it is monetised). There are also skins and polymorphs that The Vestige can put on and off at will inside the game. The simple truth is that The Vestige is a shape-shifter. The Vestige is able to change their own morphotype without the slightest expenditure of resources.

The use of skins and polymorphs by The Vestige is almost like a skill. The Vestige can be seen to acquire new skins/polymorphs when they come into contact with new things in game, as if learning how to do it, e.g. Dro'Mathra Khajiit skin is learnt when fighting in Maw of Lorkhaj, ebony skin is learnt when exposed to false ebony vapour in Vvardenfell, Kothringi skeleton polymorph is learnt from that quest in Shadowfen. Now, in Murkmire, The Vestige has encountered Bright Throat and Naga Argonians and has learned how to imitate their skins. The principle is the same.There's nothing new here.

The other point to make is that, judging from their words and actions, NPC's cannot see the outward appearance of The Vestige. Not even living gods or daedric princes. So, I think it is fair to surmise that The Vestige's nature is being cloaked by some higher power. Perhaps the same misdirection that the "Missing" God uses to hide himself is also being used on The Vestige to trick NPC's into believing that when they look at The Vestige they see nothing out of the ordinary. That is why NPC's never react as one might expect when, for example, they are accosted by a stage 4 vampire orc dressed only in a pink towel and flowery bathing cap. I'm sure Nords would pass comment if they ever saw such a thing.

Concerning this, I'm gonna have to disagree and just chalk it up to monetization over customization. In Oblivion you can change your race before leaving the starter dungeon, but Baurus doesn't make any mention of this. And theres no real evidence of anyone in TES history ever having an outward appearance that nobody can see. Skins and polymorphs aren't meant to be seen as additions to the lore. Its just customization for an online game, the developers of which only want to make more money than they did previously. Compare this to the way you can change your appearance in Skyrim. There was some lore given about this feature, you have a character in the game who calls herself a flesh sculptor, with supposedly a "Faculty of Chirurgeons in Cloudrest" whatever that means.

Claudman

@Kajuratus

Arena is barely canon anymore though. Only 10% of it is and some of the names.
If it's completely canon, where are the Argonian forenames and surnames?

Strychnos

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Short answer: No, IMHO the skins absolutely do not go against lore.

Here's why I think that...

All our player character's are instances of "The Vestige". The Vestige is a magical construct not a normal, living person. The Vestige has transcended normality in the same way that they have transcended mortality. Those rules simply do not apply.

As far as I can remember there is no lore, either written or spoken in-game, regarding the outward form of The Vestige. No precedents have been set for The Vestige in other TES games.
[....]
From what we can see in the game, The Vestige is able to change their appearance, gender and race pretty much at will (you only have to log out and use a token because that is the way it is monetised). [....] That is why NPC's never react as one might expect when, for example, they are accosted by a stage 4 vampire orc dressed only in a pink towel and flowery bathing cap. I'm sure Nords would pass comment if they ever saw such a thing.
[/b]

I think this is a really interesting idea, but I'm not sure how much water it holds. In a Loremaster's Archive it is directly stated that Haskill is a Vestige, so we DO have a precedent for what Vestiges are like. They are stated to be a lot like daedra, formed out of chaotic creatia and capable of reforming, but not shown to be able to actually change their form. All Soul Shriven are also Vestiges, although less sane and whole than the player character Vestige and Haskill. Like Haskill, Soul Shriven are not shown to change their form.

Also, some NPC's do react to your race, gender, and/or vampiric status. This shows that NPC's can see what the Vestige looks like. Many times in Murkmire characters will notice if you are playing an Argonian, and there is at least one character in a delve in the Gold Coast that will comment if you are a vampire (whatever stage of vampirism you are at).

I'm also dubious as to race/appearance change tokens being part of the canon. Would saving/loading or console commands be considered canon? Like console commands, being able to change your race and appearance is just part of the functionality of the game, not part of the lore. I think if we are going to accept skins as lore friendly, we have to chalk it up to illusion magic. Or maybe, for the case of the Bright-Throat and Dead-Water skins, some magical intervention by the Hist. It's known that they likely magically shaped Argonians from a lizard like ancestor, so maybe they could modify men or mer as well?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

TiZzA93 wrote: »

I know lots of other skins are lore breaking but most of them make it out that its illusion spell etc.
BUT the 2 xan meer crate skins wtf they r described as being actual skins so WHY r they available to all races zos say they want to follow lore well hello lizard elves humans hahjiit

Imho the designed have dropped the ball and don't know what else to monetize to.
And is not only skins but motifs. Example. Khajiit have 2 motifs. The racial and Dro-m'Athra.
However boots & gloves from the Dro-m'Athra motif style, are for humans and mer feet & hands, not Khajiit with the long claws.

Now we have those skins which look ridiculous imho.

Kajuratus

Claudman wrote: »

@Kajuratus

Arena is barely canon anymore though. Only 10% of it is and some of the names.
If it's completely canon, where are the Argonian forenames and surnames?

Hey, I never said that every aspect of Arena is 100% canonical, lets be honest by the time of TES VI most of Skyrim's lore will be retconned depending on the design directions of BGS. But the different appearance of the Argonians in Arena does have a lore explanation, in that an Argonians form is due to the effect of the Hist. Now all Argonians from Daggerfall to ESO have been portrayed more or less the same, humanoid lizards with tails and a uniquely shaped skull (apart from Morrowind, where they have digitigrade legs). From what we know, and what has been presented, its possible to draw a conclusion that the Argonians that we see in Arena is one of the forms that the Hist chose to present the Argonians as, specifically during the Arnesian War.

Claudman

@Kajuratus

I believe it'd be rather odd to suddenly utilize a human-faced lizard form. I'll agree with you that it is possible within the confines of the lore established regarding the Hist, but I'll have to disagree with the canocity of the Argonian appearance choice of TES I: Arena. It is possible for there to be at least one or two (or more) tribe(s) out there to hold a humanoid facial structure, but I simply hope on a personal perspective that the artistic direction for a humanoid faced Argonian to be better.

Then again, to expect a lot out of Arena's art direction is bit unfair when they lacked the resources to do such a thing.

But, if a humanoid-faced Argonian happens to look reminiscent Sidon from Breath of the Wild or a Turian in a future installment of The Elder Scrolls and there properly established lore (a new tribe with an well-written culture which fits the currently established lore on Argonians) regarding a humanoid-faced Argonian tribe, I will be more than welcome to the idea. So, I'll leave it in the hand of the Lore Masters as per usual.

Edziu

for me if it is lore breaking or even no...my eyes are bleeding when I see non-argonion in these skins