Orcs

PrayingSeraph

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Here are a few sources for you @Bruccius

The Changed Ones
The Fall of Trinimac
The True Nature of Orcs (your "propaganda" which is only banned by the daggerfall covenant, probably because they wouldn't want any elvish races in their alliance)
Thendaramur Death-Blossom Answers your Questions

Bottom line, orcs believe the trinimac legend, malacath himself has said it's true (just exaggerated).

Cheers!

Yeah, the Daggerfall Covenant have a very censored view of the Orsimer. They don't officially recognize the fact Orsimer by and large worship Daedric Prince Malacath despite it being fairly obvious.

"The True Nature of Orcs" isn't even inflammatory or written in a way which makes one think the author has a grudge against orcs. It's fairly academic

Bruccius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Orcs ARE mer, not beastfolk. Malacath confirms the Trinimac-->Malacath story in Lord of Souls, even appearing as a beautiful mer at first then transforming into his orcish look. Boethiah also implies the story is in essence true with her comment made in Valenwood in the quest where you help her/him stop Malacath's summoning.

Malacath calls Orsimer his children, as he does to the Vestige if the vestige is Orc in Old Orsinium. He sees himself as the Father of the Orsimer


Lets look at what Topal's epic says regarding what he referred to as orcs

"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

As you can see, the creatures he calls "orcs" are nowhere near Wrothgar, and are very uncharacteristic of Orsimer. This depiction suggest something animalistic or of limited intelligence, certainly not the Orsimer. Cannibalistic swamp beings that howl is definitely far from any depiction we have seen of Orsimer. It could have been goblins, ogres, trolls or any sort of creature.

There is also no concrete reason to suggest that what we see in the Skyrim quest "Discerning the Transmundane" is filled with lies. Mora is the God of Knowledge, not lies. You bring up why Septimus didn't also ask for Ayleid and Maormer blood, but that's pretty obvious. Ayleids are long extinct(like dwemer) and Maormer have not been seen since the War of the Isle in early Third Era. Had they both been close and around in Skyrim, he may very well have requested their blood. Regardless, the blood he was able to get from the different elves(including orcs) worked. Keep in mind Septimus has been studying the box for years. The blood mix he created was used to trick a Dwemer creation. I highly doubt it would be able to do so if he has mixed in beast blood into it, which would have greatly "corrupted" the blood mix.


With all this in mind, the evidence overwhelmingly points towards Orcs being mer. Sure you can make wild theories of everything, but that's not near enough to convince me or majority of TES lore fanatics.
I think it is very safe to say that Orsimer are of Aldmeris descent.

'"MER'' is irrelevant, as ''Mer'' means folk in the Aldmeris language...

''are nowhere near wrothgar''
The rolling verdant hills of southern High Rock are unmistakable in this verse, recognizable to anyone who has been there.
Did you even read the book, or are you just cherry picking? The Orcs were very barbaric in their earlier days, them becoming civilized has to do with the Second Empire making Orsinium a province of the Empire and granting the Orcs citizenship.

''Ayleids are long extinct.''
Not an excuse. We need ''the blood of their brethren'', Ayleids are their brethren, even if they were extinct, that doesn't change a thing. If they were extinct, the other elven bloods don't ''magically'' become more similar to Dwemer blood... Using your logic, if the Dunmner were to wipe out the other elven races, then Dunmer blood would be identical to Dwemer blood...

Septimus added the blood to his own blood stream... The blood of a race of Man... an Imperial... You don't think that'd have ''corrutped it''?

I recommend paying more attention to neutral statements and facts rather than a weird experiment involving a Daedric Prince and a Madman.

Bruccius

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Here are a few sources for you @Bruccius

The Changed Ones
The Fall of Trinimac
The True Nature of Orcs (your "propaganda" which is only banned by the daggerfall covenant, probably because they wouldn't want any elvish races in their alliance)
Thendaramur Death-Blossom Answers your Questions

Bottom line, orcs believe the trinimac legend, malacath himself has said it's true (just exaggerated).

Cheers!

Here are a few sources for you, too.
-Racial description of The Elder Scrolls: Arena
-Racial description of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall
-Racial description of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
-"Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!"
-Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Wild Regions
-Song of the Askelde Men
-"Betmeri" lore topic in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
-Dialogue with Gulugash gra-Orguk
-The (Improved) Emperor's Guide to Tamriel: Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains
-Crimes of the Daggerfall Covenant
-Dialogue with Mog gro-Yggrub
-Before the Ages of Man
-Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion

Bruccius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Here are a few sources for you @Bruccius

The Changed Ones
The Fall of Trinimac
The True Nature of Orcs (your "propaganda" which is only banned by the daggerfall covenant, probably because they wouldn't want any elvish races in their alliance)
Thendaramur Death-Blossom Answers your Questions

Bottom line, orcs believe the trinimac legend, malacath himself has said it's true (just exaggerated).

Cheers!

Yeah, the Daggerfall Covenant have a very censored view of the Orsimer. They don't officially recognize the fact Orsimer by and large worship Daedric Prince Malacath despite it being fairly obvious.

"The True Nature of Orcs" isn't even inflammatory or written in a way which makes one think the author has a grudge against orcs. It's fairly academic

Sure they do... The Covenant, of which the Orcs make up a significant part?

Jim_Pipp

I have really enjoyed the discussion and insight on this thread. I wonder if it would be good to post this question on Reddit r/teslore for more ideas?

My uneducated suggestion is not to think of time in Tamriel as a single line. Consider those who fail to achieve chim, they disappear not just from the present and future, but they dissapear from the past as though they never ever existed. There are lots of other times we see time not behave linearly in dragonbreaks and more recently in the psijiic order storyline.

So maybe, just maybe, trinimac's followers were transformed into orsimer, but this transformation did not just happen in the merethic, but absolutely always happened, so there have always been orcs in Tamriel. Boethia splattered out orcs so completely that they appeared not just at the time, but were there all of the time.

PrayingSeraph

Bruccius

'"MER'' is irrelevant, as ''Mer'' means folk in the Aldmeris language..."

Semantics? Really? You know full well what I and the others are referring to. Descendent of the Aldmer.

"The rolling verdant hills of southern High Rock are unmistakable in this verse, recognizable to anyone who has been there.
Did you even read the book, or are you just cherry picking? The Orcs were very barbaric in their earlier days, them becoming civilized has to do with the Second Empire making Orsinium a province of the Empire and granting the Orcs citizenship."

Yes, Glenumbra is nowhere near Wrothgar. Orcs were never animalistic like swamp dwelling cannibalistic creatures.

"Not an excuse. We need ''the blood of their brethren'', Ayleids are their brethren, even if they were extinct, that doesn't change a thing. If they were extinct, the other elven bloods don't ''magically'' become more similar to Dwemer blood... Using your logic, if the Dunmner were to wipe out the other elven races, then Dunmer blood would be identical to Dwemer blood...

What are you talking about? Septimus needed the blood of other mer(don't get semantical) to create a facsimile. He never once stated that in order to create such a thing, he would need the blood of every mer/bethren that has ever existed, like the moarmer, ayleid, direnni, left handed elves, etc. You are making that assumption and you have to back that up, not me. Burden of proof is on you.

"Septimus added the blood to his own blood stream... The blood of a race of Man... an Imperial... You don't think that'd have ''corrutped it''?"

I just rewatched the quest on youtube and did not see any part where Septimus adds his own blood. Can you point out where he does?

"-Racial description of The Elder Scrolls: Arena"

Very generic description that just mentions scholars think orcs are related to goblins. Considering it's Arena...its dubious, especially since orcs were just generic monsters.

"-Racial description of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall"

Couldn't find it

"-Racial description of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind"

Nope it most definitely does not provide anything to back up your assertions

"-"Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!"

aka

"Whether you identify yourself as a Man or Mer, Argonian, Orc, or Khajiit, know and understand that your shackles have been broken and you are a FREE* and INDEPENDENT* being, a citizen of the Pact with all the rights and responsibilities inherent in that singular honor."

You consider THIS evidence? Oh jeez. Its a pamphlet written by the Pact(likely just dark elves considering its only found on Vvardenfell) and doesnt include orcs as as mer so you assume that means its proof that orcs are not mer? Really???

"-Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Wild Regions"

Oh jeez this is getting worse and worse. This document is filled to the brink of racism against races seen as more primitive. How did you not know this? Did you read any of it?

Let me quote it so the others can see

"Literally, 'Orsinium' means Orc-Town in the early Aldmeris. The goblin-ken (orcs, ogres, gremlins, and other beastfolk) that live in Orsinium favor the Elvish name for their settlement, for it suggests, at least to human ears, a glorious and beautiful fortress-city instead of the squalid and filth-ridden village-and-keep that it is. It was founded during the Camoran Dynasty, when hundreds of beastmen were set free by the rulers of the Summerset Isles and allowed to settle lands north of Valenwood. These Orcish tribes chose an uninhabited mountain region near Old H'roldan in High Rock, for their people were (and most still are) dependent on a rare shaggy giant centipede herdbeast that can live only at high altitudes on alpine and sub-alpine forage."


Not only are these statements obviously false, such as the idea that ogres, orcs and gremlins lived in Orsinium aka the "squalid and filth ridden village and keep that it is" according to the author. But also the origins of Orsinium as well.
Don't get me started on what this very same document says about "Argonia" and the Argonians.

"-Song of the Askelde Men"

"These honored dead shed blood upon the fen
Ending Orc and Elf and traitor men."

A nord song? Really? Are you also going to take everything the song says as academic fact?


-"Betmeri" lore topic in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind"

No idea what that is

"-Dialogue with Gulugash gra-Orguk"

"Want me to kill an Orc? It'll cost you more ... but I'll kill Elves for free."

I'm starting to see that you are searching far and wide for any smidget of affirmation on your theory that orcs are not mer. And no, this quote from this random orc mercenary in Malabal Tor does not equate anywhere near proof or evidence.

"-The (Improved) Emperor's Guide to Tamriel: Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains"

Did not see any facts supporting that Orcs are not descendent of Aldmer.

"-Crimes of the Daggerfall Covenant"

Oh my...

"The kingdoms of the Daggerfall Covenant are inhabited by mongrel upstarts who have cruelly suppressed our Direnni cousins: the High Elves who are the rightful rulers of northwest Tamriel. They were largely complicit in the rise of the dangerous and genocidal fanatics known as the Alessian Order. They allow their pirates to prey on Aldmeri shipping. The Bretons are also so indiscriminate that they have accepted the bestial Orsimer as allies. (Orsimer! Can you imagine?) Though capable of mustering substantial brute force, there is no evidence that these degraded hybrids have the wisdom or learning to deal with the mystical disaster now threatening the Mundus. They must be disciplined and subdued as rapidly as possible, so the Dominion can get on with the business of saving the world ... and protecting it in the future." by Aicantar of Shimmerene, Sapiarch of Indoctrination

Do I even need to explain why this is nonsense and not even remotely acceptable as evidence? Why would you even call this "evidence"????

"-Dialogue with Mog gro-Yggrub"

Nothing remotely evidential In this random malabal tor npc dialogue.

Unless you call this evidence...
"You seen Elves runnin' around? The chief's been working with them for a few weeks, getting involved in politics or something. Only gonna end bad if you ask me. And you did ask me. Now, go away so I can catch my dinner!"

"-Before the Ages of Man"

Stendarr's Mercy....

I'm not even going to bother quoting it. But it's by Aicantar of Shimmerene, Sapiarch of Indoctrination....

Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion

I demonstrated above that the Pocket Guide to the Empire is NOT reliable.


"I recommend paying more attention to neutral statements and facts rather than a weird experiment involving a Daedric Prince and a Madman.


Your "facts" were horrible sources. You have not demonstrated or proven how Topal's description of what he called "orcs" even remotely fits Orcs or their ancestors, as what he recorded were swamp beings that were cannibalistic howling animalistic creatures. You have not proven or demonstrated why we should believe the "Discerning the Transmudane" quest in Skyrim is some daedric plot by Mora, the god of knowledge. You have totally ignored Malacath and Lord of Soul's proof that the Trinimac--Malacath story is factual and that Malacath openly sees Orcs as his children. You have had a snarky attitude from the get-go and now I just wasted an hour going through all your "sources" and typing this out.
Had you been respectful from early on and been open minded to counters, I wouldn't have had an issue with this. But now I am annoyed I wasted all of this time.

Look, believe whatever you want. I don't think anyone here or of the entire TES lore community will convince you otherwise to be blunt.

Bruccius

@PrayingSeraph

Too many folk think that just because there's ''Mer'' in the name of something that must mean it's elven. It's a casual argument, one that is easily disproved.

The Orcs are native to more than just Wrothgar... Ever heard of the Dragontail Mountains? The Iliac Bay in general?

He doesn't claim that, now does he? Boy, are you in for a surprise, as we're going to quote Septimus:
''A panoply of their brethren could gather to form a facsimile. A trick. Something they didn't anticipate, no, not even them. The blood of Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, Falmer, and Orsimer.''
Ayleid and Maormer are their brethren. Fact.

Of course I can point out where he adds his own blood. The moment you give him the extractor, he injects the blood into his own bloodstream; adding his blood to the mixture. If that doesn't corrupt it, there's no reason to assume the blood of a beastrace would either.

And no. In Arena it is stated, as a neutral source, that the Orcs are a larger version of goblins. The speculation comes afterwards, but them being kin is confirmed.

If Orcs were elven (stop using Mer, because it isn't accurate) they wouldn't be excluded from the ''other'' elves in the pamphlet, now would they?

How is pointing out a race is beastfolk ''racism''? There's nothing racist about it. Also, fyi, Orsinium was filled with those creatures (excluding gremlins, who never made an appearance) in Arena. So its claims are not false.

A song wouldn't make a difference between the two if they were one and the same. Just like how someone stating ''Killing humans, apes, and caucasians'' would imply that caucasians are not humans.

''No idea what that is.''
Allow me to quote:
'''Betmeri, or 'Beastmen,' were the aboriginal inhabitants of Tamriel. Each Beast race has its own distinctive accounts of the mythic era before the coming of Elves and Men; each Beast race is as culturally and physically distinct from one another as it is from Elven and Manish races. The peaceful Khajiit and Argonian races are the most numerous and culturally advanced of the Beast races; the war-loving Orc tribes are relatively few in number and widely scattered, but notable as superior warriors and weapon crafters. Other smaller Beast races, like Goblins, Apemen, and Giants, are limited to mountainous areas in the west and north of Tamriel, and seldom encountered in the East."''

You are also still missing the bloody point. If Orcs were elven, half the statements made in these sources wouldn't make any bloody sense.

''Did not see any evidence...''
Then read carefully, as the book states, and I quote once more:
''Breton, Elf, Daedric, Imperial, Nedic, Nord, and even Orcish blood''

Yes, a sapiarch who wanted to point out how Tamriel was before the races of Man. No agenda against the Orcs, yet here you are, assuming his claims are wrong, despite it clearly being researched.

''Pocket Guide is unreliable... After all, it doesn't say what I want it to say!''
Come with better arguments, please.

Malacath said the myth was taken far too literally. Could very easily have been that only he changed, and that the Orcs were always Orcish. Far more logical, considering the historical accounts.

If you want to remain stubborn and go against neutral and canon sources, go ahead, live your fanfic.

PrayingSeraph

I was going to type out another large rebuttal to what you just wrote but you killed any motivation I had for doing so so when you said this...

"Yes, a sapiarch who wanted to point out how Tamriel was before the races of Man. No agenda against the Orcs, yet here you are, assuming his claims are wrong, despite it clearly being researched.

''Pocket Guide is unreliable... After all, it doesn't say what I want it to say!''
Come with better arguments, please."


This shows that not only did you not read further into the sources to figure out that they are obviously not factual, but I even quote some of it that directly is prejudicial towards orcs(and I don't mean by calling them beastkin) and provide false commentary on not only orcs, but the actual beast races as well. If you think Pocket Guide and Aicandarr is a credible source, then I do not consider you experienced with TES lore.

I spent an hour last time going through all your sources(which you never bothered to quote) and found them to be terrible sources literally every time. You ignore the sources and books that state Orcs are elven and ignore the orcs and dunmer that also back this. This along with your snarky attitude is why I am not bothering debating with you anymore.


And lol really? Fanfic? You do realize your idea is a tiny minority in the TES lore community, right? I'm not saying your wrong because your in minority, but you can't rationally pretend my beliefs on this subject are "fanfic" worthy. You have not proven any of your theories and I'd suggest you redo the Skyrim quest we are talking about. You quoting septimus did not back your argument like you think it did...

Have a good day

BuddyAces

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Orcs ARE mer, not beastfolk. Malacath confirms the Trinimac-->Malacath story in Lord of Souls, even appearing as a beautiful mer at first then transforming into his orcish look. Boethiah also implies the story is in essence true with her comment made in Valenwood in the quest where you help her/him stop Malacath's summoning.

Malacath calls Orsimer his children, as he does to the Vestige if the vestige is Orc in Old Orsinium. He sees himself as the Father of the Orsimer


Lets look at what Topal's epic says regarding what he referred to as orcs

"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

As you can see, the creatures he calls "orcs" are nowhere near Wrothgar, and are very uncharacteristic of Orsimer. This depiction suggest something animalistic or of limited intelligence, certainly not the Orsimer. Cannibalistic swamp beings that howl is definitely far from any depiction we have seen of Orsimer. It could have been goblins, ogres, trolls or any sort of creature.

There is also no concrete reason to suggest that what we see in the Skyrim quest "Discerning the Transmundane" is filled with lies. Mora is the God of Knowledge, not lies. You bring up why Septimus didn't also ask for Ayleid and Maormer blood, but that's pretty obvious. Ayleids are long extinct(like dwemer) and Maormer have not been seen since the War of the Isle in early Third Era. Had they both been close and around in Skyrim, he may very well have requested their blood. Regardless, the blood he was able to get from the different elves(including orcs) worked. Keep in mind Septimus has been studying the box for years. The blood mix he created was used to trick a Dwemer creation. I highly doubt it would be able to do so if he has mixed in beast blood into it, which would have greatly "corrupted" the blood mix.


With all this in mind, the evidence overwhelmingly points towards Orcs being mer. Sure you can make wild theories of everything, but that's not near enough to convince me or majority of TES lore fanatics.
I think it is very safe to say that Orsimer are of Aldmeris descent.

Actually, that description sounds just like an orc raiding party

Tucker3711

Simple one day I had the sniffles and out came an orc named Bob...