How is Aryenn Queen?

HorrorShow

Minyassa wrote: »

Ayrenn's history tells us why. As a youngster, it was noted by her teachers and parents that whenever she went out on field trips she came back with a notably greater education. Her birth was surrounded by circumstances of import that pointed at her being destined for a great rule, and they were watching for signs supporting this. She was quick, clever, determined and had a drive that did not lead to any doubt about these portents.

When she was supposed to be installed in school, where she would be sequestered in studies, she took off. Granted, that was unwise and impetuous, but we are talking about a prophesied, destined, special snowflake here, and that would explain why, when they couldn't find her, they did not declare her dead or disown her but instead just quietly installed her brother in school as an understudy and made him legally eligible just in case.

She did not run off to go play. She ran off to go adventuring. She trained in the arts of war, she learned about, and excelled at, the diplomatic ways of other cultures. She learned the ways of stealth, she made contacts, she basically took an extended educational field trip to go powerlevel herself because she knew that sitting in a classroom was not the effective way for her to learn what she needed to be queen.

If she'd stayed, she would have stagnated, and been wasted with court intrigue and puffery and gossip and been immersed in snotty racist stuff that would have done her ill. She SAW these things, and she made the decision to avoid the useless crap and go do what was needed so she'd be fit to rule.

The reason they accepted her as queen when she came back? They knew she was doing this. It may have been against tradition, but remember, they had warning that she was weird and different, and that this was a *good* thing. They were expecting her to excel, and the stars told them to let her do what she needed to do for her people. When she came back having taken several levels in badass, they recognized this as what she was meant to do, and no longer needed Naemon to step in as a pinch hitter.

[citation needed]

Minyassa

HorrorShow wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Ayrenn's history tells us why. As a youngster, it was noted by her teachers and parents that whenever she went out on field trips she came back with a notably greater education. Her birth was surrounded by circumstances of import that pointed at her being destined for a great rule, and they were watching for signs supporting this. She was quick, clever, determined and had a drive that did not lead to any doubt about these portents.

When she was supposed to be installed in school, where she would be sequestered in studies, she took off. Granted, that was unwise and impetuous, but we are talking about a prophesied, destined, special snowflake here, and that would explain why, when they couldn't find her, they did not declare her dead or disown her but instead just quietly installed her brother in school as an understudy and made him legally eligible just in case.

She did not run off to go play. She ran off to go adventuring. She trained in the arts of war, she learned about, and excelled at, the diplomatic ways of other cultures. She learned the ways of stealth, she made contacts, she basically took an extended educational field trip to go powerlevel herself because she knew that sitting in a classroom was not the effective way for her to learn what she needed to be queen.

If she'd stayed, she would have stagnated, and been wasted with court intrigue and puffery and gossip and been immersed in snotty racist stuff that would have done her ill. She SAW these things, and she made the decision to avoid the useless crap and go do what was needed so she'd be fit to rule.

The reason they accepted her as queen when she came back? They knew she was doing this. It may have been against tradition, but remember, they had warning that she was weird and different, and that this was a *good* thing. They were expecting her to excel, and the stars told them to let her do what she needed to do for her people. When she came back having taken several levels in badass, they recognized this as what she was meant to do, and no longer needed Naemon to step in as a pinch hitter.

[citation needed]

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ayrenn

https://www.letras.mus.br/malukah/ode-to-queen-ayrenn/

HorrorShow

One of the sources listed uses the in game book "Ayrenn, The Unforseen Queen" as it's source.

"Some of our Bosmeri and Khajiiti students have come under the misapprehension that not all of the Altmer of Summerset are united behind our glorious Queen Ayrenn. Nothing could be further from the truth! "
"Now, some of you may have heard wild tales about Princess Ayrenn's adventures during her time away from Summerset — that she sailed as first mate with a pirate captain from Anvil, disguised herself as a Dunmer in order to read the Indigo Scrolls in the vaults of Necrom, bested the Dervishes of Rihad at their own sword-dance, and even outdrank Queen Mabjaarn Flame-Hair of Windhelm in a mead-slamming contest. All myths and tales, I assure you, preposterous and absurd. Our queen was merely preparing for Praxis and Ceremoniarchy in her own fashion of independent study."

The author of this book was a member of the Veiled Heritance and spreading misinformation.

The other book used as a source "The Rise of Queen Ayrenn" makes no mention of any signs or portents about her birth. It does mention she crewed with a pirate captain which would seem to be in direct conflict with the book "Ayrenn, The Unforseen Queen".

Her background in the wiki is based on 2 books that conflict with eachother, one of which written by a traitor.

And the lyrics of a bard's fanciful songs designed to part drunks from their gold are not even worth the effort of debunking.

So...fake news?

Slick_007

HorrorShow wrote: »

I withdraw my comment about sleeping with the High Priest. Pretty sure now she had Razum dar kidnap his family and threaten to kill them if he didn't support her claim.

Razum didnt need to do all that. he just did this:

Drakkdjinn

Her agent couldn't find her a gig after Underworld 54 bombed at the box office in China, so she rules AD to pay the mortgage.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

HorrorShow wrote: »

One of the sources listed uses the in game book "Ayrenn, The Unforseen Queen" as it's source.

"Some of our Bosmeri and Khajiiti students have come under the misapprehension that not all of the Altmer of Summerset are united behind our glorious Queen Ayrenn. Nothing could be further from the truth! "
"Now, some of you may have heard wild tales about Princess Ayrenn's adventures during her time away from Summerset — that she sailed as first mate with a pirate captain from Anvil, disguised herself as a Dunmer in order to read the Indigo Scrolls in the vaults of Necrom, bested the Dervishes of Rihad at their own sword-dance, and even outdrank Queen Mabjaarn Flame-Hair of Windhelm in a mead-slamming contest. All myths and tales, I assure you, preposterous and absurd. Our queen was merely preparing for Praxis and Ceremoniarchy in her own fashion of independent study."

The author of this book was a member of the Veiled Heritance and spreading misinformation.

And yet you use that source as a support for Naemon, as that's where it's mentioned he was named heir and Tanion harps about what a natural ceremoniarch he was. So, by your own logic, that's suspect too.

Rickter

Look guys - I hate to drop this lore bomb - but Ayrenn is a 9th era space robot named KINMUNE.

KINMUNE was first introduced in Skyrim. Here is the official source:

//aurbis.c0da.es/ayrenn/ayrenn.pdf

The ninth era is the farthest recorded era in the elder scrolls lore even though its the damn future, with space elves, super computers, and literal math used as a weapon. Its obscured in game, but a lot of content in game actually originates from the ninth era but it never directly states it.

Kinmune was an oudated super computer on board a 9th era mining vessel when it got attacked by space pirates (again, you cant make this *** up) and the trauma from the attack *** up her space time regulator gizmos, launching her back to first era skyrim.

She wondered around the reach and sort of became a local deity, exchanging future knowledge with travelers for portions of their “Heroism” which i assume is their soul, or something.

Anyway, the dumb old giant (that was really his name) wanted some of her knowledge but the poor *** died from exchanging some of his soul with her. Unfortunately, he was really close friends with Ysmir, so he led a campaign and chased her into Saarthal and trapped her underneath it.

She was surrounded by dwemer architecture, so she studied it enough until she learned some form of 1st era language. She escaped, went to the summerset isles, and became The ruler of the Aldmeri Dominion, queen Ayreen, who you actually run quests for in ESO.

Im sure this has been mentioned before and Michael Kirkbride confirmed Pelinal Whitestrake was a cyborg also sent back from the future so future robots shouldnt be a foreign concept. In fact, Morrowind (TES III not ESO) was supposed to be science fiction/fantasy and its my belief we will see TES games move in that direction with future entries.

MAEK

Rickter wrote: »

Look guys - I hate to drop this lore bomb - but Ayrenn is a 9th era space robot named KINMUNE.

KINMUNE was first introduced in Skyrim. Here is the official source:

//aurbis.c0da.es/ayrenn/ayrenn.pdf

The ninth era is the farthest recorded era in the elder scrolls lore even though its the damn future, with space elves, super computers, and literal math used as a weapon. Its obscured in game, but a lot of content in game actually originates from the ninth era but it never directly states it.

Kinmune was an oudated super computer on board a 9th era mining vessel when it got attacked by space pirates (again, you cant make this *** up) and the trauma from the attack *** up her space time regulator gizmos, launching her back to first era skyrim.

She wondered around the reach and sort of became a local deity, exchanging future knowledge with travelers for portions of their “Heroism” which i assume is their soul, or something.

Anyway, the dumb old giant (that was really his name) wanted some of her knowledge but the poor *** died from exchanging some of his soul with her. Unfortunately, he was really close friends with Ysmir, so he led a campaign and chased her into Saarthal and trapped her underneath it.

She was surrounded by dwemer architecture, so she studied it enough until she learned some form of 1st era language. She escaped, went to the summerset isles, and became The ruler of the Aldmeri Dominion, queen Ayreen, who you actually run quests for in ESO.

Im sure this has been mentioned before and Michael Kirkbride confirmed Pelinal Whitestrake was a cyborg also sent back from the future so future robots shouldnt be a foreign concept. In fact, Morrowind (TES III not ESO) was supposed to be science fiction/fantasy and its my belief we will see TES games move in that direction with future entries.

This ain't canon though^

Rickter

Micahel Kirkbride has worked on contract basis for Bethesda on all story elements of the game. and yes that means all the way through ESO.

It may not be specifically stated as official lore, but just about anything that guy says is gold. He knows more about the actual origins and storylines for TES than any of us.

VaranisArano

Michael Kirkbride's stuff isn't canon unless Bethesda says it is. Kinmune isn't canon.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

VaranisArano wrote: »

Michael Kirkbride's stuff isn't canon unless Bethesda says it is. Kinmune isn't canon.

Didn't ZOS specifically state that stuff about KINMUNE being Ayrenn wasn't canon?

VaranisArano

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Michael Kirkbride's stuff isn't canon unless Bethesda says it is. Kinmune isn't canon.

Didn't ZOS specifically state that stuff about KINMUNE being Ayrenn wasn't canon?

I can't find anything specific? However, the general stance has been that anything Kirkbride does that is actually used in the games becomes canon by virtue of being used in the games. So the half of "The Many-Headed Talos" that Heimskr quoted in Skyrim is confirmed canon, the rest of it isn't.

The only in game reference to KINMUNE is: "Karifa al-Tahud, a Tel Var Armorer found in the Daggerfall Covenant base in the Imperial Sewers, can be heard spreading several conspiracy theories. One of them is: "Queen Ayrenn is a miniature Dwemer construct from the next era. Everybody knows it". This is a humorous reference to KINMUNE, a synthetic sentient being from the future featured in Michael Kirkbride's short story by the same name. In an expansion of the story entitled "Ayrenn", Queen Ayrenn is said to be an identity assumed by KINMUNE." http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Easter_Eggs

So I guess I'd say that the conspiracy theory that Ayrenn is a robot is canon, but is only confirmed as a conspiracy theory.

VaranisArano

Rickter wrote: »

Im sure this has been mentioned before and Michael Kirkbride confirmed Pelinal Whitestrake was a cyborg also sent back from the future so future robots shouldnt be a foreign concept. In fact, Morrowind (TES III not ESO) was supposed to be science fiction/fantasy and its my belief we will see TES games move in that direction with future entries.

Given that TES III ended with my Nerevarine

pitching a giant robot into a lava lake to stop Dagoth Ur from conquering the world with it.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that TES III wasn't science fiction/fantasy.
Admittedly, Oblivion and Skyrim went full-on fantasy, but Morrowind didn't exactly shy away from sci-fi, especially not when you bring in the Tribunal expansion with

Clockwork City and Dwemer machines that change the weather in Mournhold.

DoctorESO

Propaganda or the truth about Quenn Ayrenn's time away from home?

UESP wrote:

The Rise of Queen Ayrenn
by Nuulehtel of Skywatch
A brief account of Queen Ayrenn's life and history

Loyal citizens of Auridon! I have the pleasure of being an advisor to Her Royal Majesty, Queen Ayrenn the First, Eagle Primarch of the Aldmeri Dominion, High Queen of the Summerset Isles, Overfriend of the Royal Camoran House of the Wood Elven people, and boon companion to the Mane of the Khajiit.

As Royal Advisor, I have penned this brief account of Queen Ayrenn's life and history. Read, that you might welcome our Queen into your hearts.

Her Majesty spent her early days as many children do in the Isles. She trained in blades beside her father. She rode horses in the surf along our golden beaches. And she memorized history and sonnets beneath soft pink petals.

Over twenty years ago, your forward-thinking King—His Royal Majesty, King Hidellith of Alinor, may he be ever honored in Aetherius—gathered with the royal family at the Crystal Tower in celebration of Her Majesty's passage into the Labyrinth. This time of intensive study had been required by all Summerset rulers in the past, and Her Majesty was to step into that period with arms wide. As the hour approached, however, the then-princess was found missing!

While a long search was begun, in truth, Her Majesty had claimed her own destiny. Her Majesty had stolen away to the Isle of Balfiera, to live with the Direnni at the Adamant Tower. The members of that clan trained her in the art of war. They turned her simple noble swordplay to lithe and seasoned blade-dancing. Her beachside rides became forced marches on horseback, and her singing of sonnets beneath the trees of her homeland gave way to the study of the arts most arcane.

Much has been made of our Queen's adventures in Tamriel by bards and common broadsheet scribes. Yes, it's true that she once rode a bear. That she hunted the frost trolls of Skyrim, delved into the depths of a Dwarven ruin, and crewed with a pirate captain of Cyrodiil. Her Majesty once flew upon an enormous kite on the winds of the Alik'r Desert, and danced with Nereids in the Illessan Hills. These adventures were not the larks of a wanton, but instead a deliberate process. The tempering of a blade!

And when His Majesty King Hidellith passed away, when it looked as though our remote isles would be left to flounder in the swell of history, Princess Ayrenn returned! Her Majesty plucked the crown from where it had fallen in the dust. She took up her father's sword and led us out into the world.

Led us into the world to find new allies waiting just off our shores! The Queen's connections to the noble Wood Elves and fierce Khajiit enabled us to form the mighty Dominion that now stands astride our corner of Tamriel, poised to strike at the dark heart of Cyrodiil and ward off the depredations of the warmongering alliances of the north.

Though she has her detractors and cowards defame her courage from behind a veil, Queen Ayrenn is the living, beating heart of the Dominion. Our fortune and prosperty [sic] depend upon her.

tplink3r1

DoctorESO wrote: »

Propaganda or the truth about Quenn Ayrenn's time away from home?

UESP wrote:

The Rise of Queen Ayrenn
by Nuulehtel of Skywatch
A brief account of Queen Ayrenn's life and history

Loyal citizens of Auridon! I have the pleasure of being an advisor to Her Royal Majesty, Queen Ayrenn the First, Eagle Primarch of the Aldmeri Dominion, High Queen of the Summerset Isles, Overfriend of the Royal Camoran House of the Wood Elven people, and boon companion to the Mane of the Khajiit.

As Royal Advisor, I have penned this brief account of Queen Ayrenn's life and history. Read, that you might welcome our Queen into your hearts.

Her Majesty spent her early days as many children do in the Isles. She trained in blades beside her father. She rode horses in the surf along our golden beaches. And she memorized history and sonnets beneath soft pink petals.

Over twenty years ago, your forward-thinking King—His Royal Majesty, King Hidellith of Alinor, may he be ever honored in Aetherius—gathered with the royal family at the Crystal Tower in celebration of Her Majesty's passage into the Labyrinth. This time of intensive study had been required by all Summerset rulers in the past, and Her Majesty was to step into that period with arms wide. As the hour approached, however, the then-princess was found missing!

While a long search was begun, in truth, Her Majesty had claimed her own destiny. Her Majesty had stolen away to the Isle of Balfiera, to live with the Direnni at the Adamant Tower. The members of that clan trained her in the art of war. They turned her simple noble swordplay to lithe and seasoned blade-dancing. Her beachside rides became forced marches on horseback, and her singing of sonnets beneath the trees of her homeland gave way to the study of the arts most arcane.

Much has been made of our Queen's adventures in Tamriel by bards and common broadsheet scribes. Yes, it's true that she once rode a bear. That she hunted the frost trolls of Skyrim, delved into the depths of a Dwarven ruin, and crewed with a pirate captain of Cyrodiil. Her Majesty once flew upon an enormous kite on the winds of the Alik'r Desert, and danced with Nereids in the Illessan Hills. These adventures were not the larks of a wanton, but instead a deliberate process. The tempering of a blade!

And when His Majesty King Hidellith passed away, when it looked as though our remote isles would be left to flounder in the swell of history, Princess Ayrenn returned! Her Majesty plucked the crown from where it had fallen in the dust. She took up her father's sword and led us out into the world.

Led us into the world to find new allies waiting just off our shores! The Queen's connections to the noble Wood Elves and fierce Khajiit enabled us to form the mighty Dominion that now stands astride our corner of Tamriel, poised to strike at the dark heart of Cyrodiil and ward off the depredations of the warmongering alliances of the north.

Though she has her detractors and cowards defame her courage from behind a veil, Queen Ayrenn is the living, beating heart of the Dominion. Our fortune and prosperty [sic] depend upon her.

- Noble Wood Elves
- Wood Elves
- Noble
Yeah, it's propaganda.

PrayingSeraph

Another I noticed about Aryenn is that her Dominion seems to have more infighting and backstabbing than the other two, which is pretty sad. Considering the Pact is made up by 3 races that historically despise each other, and the Covenant is made up of 3 races that have a history of extreme territorial dispute. Out of all, the Dominion should be the most united and solidified, especially with her network of spies and agents. Yet this somehow isn't the case. Her dominion is a joke compared to the future third Aldmeri Dominion, which was strong and united, and swept through Tamriel. If she was a strong qualified leader, none of this should be happening.

VaranisArano

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Another I noticed about Aryenn is that her Dominion seems to have more infighting and backstabbing than the other two, which is pretty sad. Considering the Pact is made up by 3 races that historically despise each other, and the Covenant is made up of 3 races that have a history of extreme territorial dispute. Out of all, the Dominion should be the most united and solidified, especially with her network of spies and agents. Yet this somehow isn't the case. Her dominion is a joke compared to the future third Aldmeri Dominion, which was strong and united, and swept through Tamriel.

I dunno. Spoilers for the Pact:

The Bleakrock defense is compromised by infighting between the current Dunmer commander and former Nord commander. Tanval Indoril kidnaps the son of the House Dres Grandmaster to get his way while unleashing constructs that do serious damage to the Stonefalls region while part of the region is dealing with a slave revolt. Almalexia, the mother goddess of Morrowind, needs the help,of the Vestige to deal a vengeful former follower devastating Deshaan with a plague. In Shadowfen, the Dominion takes advantage of the distrust between the 3 allies to wreak havoc. In Eastmarch, king Jorunn is blindsided by his brother's rebellion that almost wrecked the Pact's peace conference. Only in the Rift do we actually see the Pact really functioning well.

dodgehopper_ESO

Minyassa wrote: »

Ayrenn's history tells us why. As a youngster, it was noted by her teachers and parents that whenever she went out on field trips she came back with a notably greater education. Her birth was surrounded by circumstances of import that pointed at her being destined for a great rule, and they were watching for signs supporting this. She was quick, clever, determined and had a drive that did not lead to any doubt about these portents.

When she was supposed to be installed in school, where she would be sequestered in studies, she took off. Granted, that was unwise and impetuous, but we are talking about a prophesied, destined, special snowflake here, and that would explain why, when they couldn't find her, they did not declare her dead or disown her but instead just quietly installed her brother in school as an understudy and made him legally eligible just in case.

She did not run off to go play. She ran off to go adventuring. She trained in the arts of war, she learned about, and excelled at, the diplomatic ways of other cultures. She learned the ways of stealth, she made contacts, she basically took an extended educational field trip to go powerlevel herself because she knew that sitting in a classroom was not the effective way for her to learn what she needed to be queen.

If she'd stayed, she would have stagnated, and been wasted with court intrigue and puffery and gossip and been immersed in snotty racist stuff that would have done her ill. She SAW these things, and she made the decision to avoid the useless crap and go do what was needed so she'd be fit to rule.

The reason they accepted her as queen when she came back? They knew she was doing this. It may have been against tradition, but remember, they had warning that she was weird and different, and that this was a *good* thing. They were expecting her to excel, and the stars told them to let her do what she needed to do for her people. When she came back having taken several levels in badass, they recognized this as what she was meant to do, and no longer needed Naemon to step in as a pinch hitter.

Agreed.

dodgehopper_ESO

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

SynodicOracle wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

HorrorShow wrote: »

Aryenn is born. First child, heir to throne.
Naemon is born. Second child, second in line for throne.
Aryenn runs away to have wild teenage sex parties.
King Hidellith declares Naemon new heir.
Naemon studies for 10 years to prepare for the responsibility of being King.
King Hidellith dies.
Aryenn shows up in drug crazed stupor, says she should be Queen.
Sucks to be you, king said you were no longer the heir and Naemon is.
UNKNOWN INFO. I assume Aryenn slept with a high priest or something to get him to declare her the heir again.
Aryenn declared Queen and the 10 years needed for studying is declared null and void because affirmative action or something.


Why does anyone treat her claim seriously? The KING declared her no longer the heir and Naemon as the the new heir.

I sense some misogyny here. Give Ayrenn some credit

Misogyny? He was inquiring about the legitimacy of a fictional character leading a throne. Stop making a fuss where there isn't one. She earned her credit by wandering, irrespective of either of their genders. Male, female, doesn't matter, it's what they do as leader that counts.

Considering that the OP originally characterized Ayrenn's absence from Auridon as "Aryenn runs away to have wild teenage sex parties." and her return as " Aryenn shows up in drug crazed stupor, says she should be Queen." Oh and "I assume Aryenn slept with a high priest or something to get him to declare her the heir again.
Aryenn declared Queen and the 10 years needed for studying is declared null and void because affirmative action or something.", I'm not quite as willing to offer the benefit of the doubt as you are.

That's, uh, a little farther afield of "inquiring about the legitimacy of a fictional character claiming the throne" and isn't supported by any of the in-game lorebooks.

This.

And sometimes people don't see the misogyny because it's so ingrained in them, unfortunate as it is.

By the way, for those who are not familiar with the term, misogyny is "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women," as defined by Dictionary.com.

The feminist nonsense is unwarranted on this thread. Were you looking to start an arguement? Surely you had to have known how'd people react. You then start accusing others of "internal misogyny". You even linked to a variety article that goes on telling the world how women should be portrayed complimented with of course the customary hashtag. Again you had to have known the reception to this would be, and know it could derail the thread. This thread is about why Aryenn is queen and whether she is qualified, not about whether we all are suffering from internal misogyny.

EDIT: I just edited out a paragraph that was a rebuttal to your claims of misogyny here. The reason I edited it out? I don't want to derail the thread further by engaging.

Nope. It all comes back to the OP's initial post:

HorrorShow wrote: »

Aryenn runs away to have wild teenage sex parties.
Aryenn shows up in drug crazed stupor, says she should be Queen.
I assume Aryenn slept with a high priest or something to get him to declare her the heir again.
Aryenn declared Queen and the 10 years needed for studying is declared null and void because affirmative action or something.

That says a lot.

As I said before, give Ayrenn some credit and stop the misogyny. Let's not perpetuate it any further. Like you said, focus on her qualifications and not negative gender stereotypes. Please and thank you.

This is saying much more about you. No one had an issue with OP's post but you had to bring up nonsensical feminist accusations against other forum users. That sir is derailing a thread.


The OP's post was not misogynistic. The point of the OP was that she lacked the qualifications. Which begged the question, why would she be in power? Now tradition is the answer as answered by others, but initial reasons could have been anything, be it with sleeping with others, or anything else. In real life women have slept with men to gain a position, this is a fact. Not sure you realize but assuming we look through the lens of gender politics, this makes men look worse than women, for bribing a women to sleep with you is pretty low in most people's opinions. As you quoted the definition of misogyny, no one here has stated or implied they disliked or mistrusted women, rather people have disliked or mistrusted an *individial* named Aryenn.

Nope. I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree.

Mate you can think whatever you want, but derailing a thread and accusing others of being misogynistic because they don't hold to your narrow views is totally unnecessary and uncalled for. This isn't the time and this is certainly not the place for this.

Nope. See the edit to my post above.

Feel free to quote where I accused someone of being a misogynist. I said I sense some misogyny and that sometimes, people don't recognize misogyny because it's ingrained in them. On the other hand, I sense unfortunately that you have derailed this thread and hurled more accusations than anyone else, and called feminist views "nonsense" which is sure to spark replies.

Quite literally a couple comments ago you told Horrowshow to "give Aryenn credit and stop the misogyny" which naturally implies you think he was misogynistic. As you also said with OP. Mate, nearly the whole last page was you and others going back and forth about misogyny. Again quit deflecting.

That's a response to the thread as a whole up to that point, and I was not hurling an accusation at the OP as you are hurling at me. The only discussion about misogyny here is between you and me. If you truly do not want to not talk about this topic, then let it go, or feel free to private message me.

No it was literally a response to Horrowshow, but perhaps you didn't intend it to be so. Now you say you were directing it to the thread comments, which implies more than one person. Ues, you did hurl an accusation against OP. Your response to my comment telling you to quit this misogyny nonsense was responded by you with, and I quote "Nope. It all comes back to the OP's initial post". I want this topic to be let go, as I have stated repeatedly to you even with my first comment. So how about we drop it. No more "misogyny" talk. Sounds good?

As long as no one is expressing misogynistic views and attributing negative female stereotypes to women in power because they are women instead of discussing their qualifications (which has been done in this thread), then of course. That is what I have wanted all along. I was beginning to think you were trolling me.

I did like how you talked about Ayrenn's possible knowledge of an involvement in Argonian infanticide. That is a point we should be discussing, as it goes towards her qualifications as a leader. Unfortunately, that is not how the thread started. But it doesn't have to stay that way.

AGAIN, not everyone here holds to your views of what is or isn't misogyny or "negative female stereotypes". That's my point. Your bringing up politically charged language on a thread that has no use for it. OP accused Aryenn of possibly doing a sleazy thing(which anyone could do) because OP thought Aryenn wasn't qualified, so it begged the question, how did she gain power over her more qualified brother? Sleeping with a high priest is certainly a possibility, albeit unlikely as I doubt the writers would have written such a plot point in. One isn't misogynistic for pointing this out however. But I don't know how else to explain this to you mate.

Not everyone here holds to your views either or thinks opposing views are "nonsense."

Here's the same question I have:

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

HorrorShow wrote: »

Aryenn is born. First child, heir to throne.
Naemon is born. Second child, second in line for throne.
Aryenn runs away to have wild teenage sex parties.
King Hidellith declares Naemon new heir.
Naemon studies for 10 years to prepare for the responsibility of being King.
King Hidellith dies.
Aryenn shows up in drug crazed stupor, says she should be Queen.
Sucks to be you, king said you were no longer the heir and Naemon is.
UNKNOWN INFO. I assume Aryenn slept with a high priest or something to get him to declare her the heir again.
Aryenn declared Queen and the 10 years needed for studying is declared null and void because affirmative action or something.


Why does anyone treat her claim seriously? The KING declared her no longer the heir and Naemon as the the new heir.

Question is why do you assume she was having wild teenage sex parties or showed up in a drug crazed stupor or slept with a priest? If she were a he would you make the same assumptions?
This post has nothing to do with Ayrenns throne, it sounds more like your own misogynistic assumptions.

The answer is no.

Yes I am well aware there arepeople on this forum don't have the same political views as I, this forum is very diverse in the aspect. Which is why I don't advocate any of this talk. Had someone come on here and said "Aryenn is queen because Zenimax are feminists" or whatnot, I would have opposed that too.

To respond to the other quote

"Question is why do you assume she was having wild teenage sex parties or showed up for a drug crazed stupor or slept with a priest"

Because she was unqualified(which can be argued but OP held the belief she wasn't) which begged the question, what likely unethical means was she able to take the throne? Sleeping with a priest is a possibility. We know in the Morrowind expansion there was that female Redoran corrupt councilwoman that Naryu assassinated who slept with her associates, with a letter in her room of the guard captain saying along the lines "I owe you one. Next time I get a break I'll head over to you". This was a a clearly lustful woman in power, mind you. These things happen.

"If she were a he would you make the same assumptions?"

Perhaps he would. You don't know him/her.

Actually I do believe there is some innuendo in the quest line about her at least about hanging around in taverns and partying it up. It has been too long since I did the quest but I suspect the OP (or whoever brought it up) was pointing back to that innuendo.

vestahls

I always took it as a shallow application of the rule that the eldest is first in line. It never made sense to me either why Naemon would be swept aside immediately, after being almost done with the rituals, and Ayrenn given the throne without going through all the training that was mandatory - considering Altmer longevity, it's not like they'd be in any hurry.

Maybe the whole Planemeld coupled with the war over Cyrodiil would've put the Altmer in a panic and keen to have leadership established fast. Maybe. But these three are the only in-character reasons I could think of that would excuse the whole thing, and they're not very good reasons either. Ayrenn is too impulsive (she literally ran away from home and dropped out of all her education) and Naemon would've been a more cool-headed and prepared leader, disciplined and educated for the job. Preparing people from birth for leadership is one of the main points of a monarchy, after all. So what if the Altmer didn't unite with the Khajiit and the Bosmer? They probably wouldn't need it because a) they're an island nation which makes them harder to conquer, and b) they're advanced both militarily and in terms of magic, their only real challengers might be the Dunmer, who are on the other side of the continent.

I just wish TES games gave you real RP choices, like to not support Ayrenn and go for the Heritance instead or something. Maybe if you had Persuasion, to get Naemon to challenge her for the throne. I recognise ESO is already a massive game and the amount of writing/voice acting they can dedicate to each faction is limited, but I wish so badly this were more of a real RPG.

On an unrelated note, it's funny and a bit uncomfortable what they did with the Thalmor. I toyed with the thought of making my char a vamp so she could live to the 4th era and see an incarnation of the Dominion and the Thalmor which are more truly authoritarian. Of all the things to miss Skyrim over...

Now, from an out-of-character perspective:

Asardes wrote: »

They had a gender quota

this but unironically.

I strongly suspect the writers were scared that if the leaders of all three groups were male, the feminists would be wailing nonstop, so they threw them this poorly written offering. Is it too obvious I was let down by the Dominion storyline? I don't mind what gender the leaders of these fictional factions are, so long as the writing is good.

inb4 "muh internalised misogyny"

LittlePinkDot

vestahls wrote: »

I always took it as a shallow application of the rule that the eldest is first in line. It never made sense to me either why Naemon would be swept aside immediately, after being almost done with the rituals, and Ayrenn given the throne without going through all the training that was mandatory - considering Altmer longevity, it's not like they'd be in any hurry.

Maybe the whole Planemeld coupled with the war over Cyrodiil would've put the Altmer in a panic and keen to have leadership established fast. Maybe. But these three are the only in-character reasons I could think of that would excuse the whole thing, and they're not very good reasons either. Ayrenn is too impulsive (she literally ran away from home and dropped out of all her education) and Naemon would've been a more cool-headed and prepared leader, disciplined and educated for the job. Preparing people from birth for leadership is one of the main points of a monarchy, after all. So what if the Altmer didn't unite with the Khajiit and the Bosmer? They probably wouldn't need it because a) they're an island nation which makes them harder to conquer, and b) they're advanced both militarily and in terms of magic, their only real challengers might be the Dunmer, who are on the other side of the continent.

I just wish TES games gave you real RP choices, like to not support Ayrenn and go for the Heritance instead or something. Maybe if you had Persuasion, to get Naemon to challenge her for the throne. I recognise ESO is already a massive game and the amount of writing/voice acting they can dedicate to each faction is limited, but I wish so badly this were more of a real RPG.

On an unrelated note, it's funny and a bit uncomfortable what they did with the Thalmor. I toyed with the thought of making my char a vamp so she could live to the 4th era and see an incarnation of the Dominion and the Thalmor which are more truly authoritarian. Of all the things to miss Skyrim over...

Now, from an out-of-character perspective:

Asardes wrote: »

They had a gender quota

this but unironically.

I strongly suspect the writers were scared that if the leaders of all three groups were male, the feminists would be wailing nonstop, so they threw them this poorly written offering. Is it too obvious I was let down by the Dominion storyline? I don't mind what gender the leaders of these fictional factions are, so long as the writing is good.

inb4 "muh internalised misogyny"

We all know democracy is better. So im not surprised that theres something wrong with all factions leaders.
But the idea that Naemon is any better than Ayrenn is false. Theres no way that Naemon didnt know his wife Estre was serving Mehrunes Dagon or other princes, unless he was a complete idiot, and if thats the case then he wouldnt be fit to lead.
As ive stated it said in game that Estre had sold her soul many times over. Who else did she sell herself to besides Dagon and Molag Bal?
She wouldve been Queen if Naemon became king. What do you think she wouldve been willing to do for power? She definitely would be more likely to screw around for power. Infact thats why she married Naemon. Shes got a thing for princes... but only 1 of them was mortal lol.

PrayingSeraph

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

I always took it as a shallow application of the rule that the eldest is first in line. It never made sense to me either why Naemon would be swept aside immediately, after being almost done with the rituals, and Ayrenn given the throne without going through all the training that was mandatory - considering Altmer longevity, it's not like they'd be in any hurry.

Maybe the whole Planemeld coupled with the war over Cyrodiil would've put the Altmer in a panic and keen to have leadership established fast. Maybe. But these three are the only in-character reasons I could think of that would excuse the whole thing, and they're not very good reasons either. Ayrenn is too impulsive (she literally ran away from home and dropped out of all her education) and Naemon would've been a more cool-headed and prepared leader, disciplined and educated for the job. Preparing people from birth for leadership is one of the main points of a monarchy, after all. So what if the Altmer didn't unite with the Khajiit and the Bosmer? They probably wouldn't need it because a) they're an island nation which makes them harder to conquer, and b) they're advanced both militarily and in terms of magic, their only real challengers might be the Dunmer, who are on the other side of the continent.

I just wish TES games gave you real RP choices, like to not support Ayrenn and go for the Heritance instead or something. Maybe if you had Persuasion, to get Naemon to challenge her for the throne. I recognise ESO is already a massive game and the amount of writing/voice acting they can dedicate to each faction is limited, but I wish so badly this were more of a real RPG.

On an unrelated note, it's funny and a bit uncomfortable what they did with the Thalmor. I toyed with the thought of making my char a vamp so she could live to the 4th era and see an incarnation of the Dominion and the Thalmor which are more truly authoritarian. Of all the things to miss Skyrim over...

Now, from an out-of-character perspective:

Asardes wrote: »

They had a gender quota

this but unironically.

I strongly suspect the writers were scared that if the leaders of all three groups were male, the feminists would be wailing nonstop, so they threw them this poorly written offering. Is it too obvious I was let down by the Dominion storyline? I don't mind what gender the leaders of these fictional factions are, so long as the writing is good.

inb4 "muh internalised misogyny"

We all know democracy is better. So im not surprised that theres something wrong with all factions leaders.
But the idea that Naemon is any better than Ayrenn is false. Theres no way that Naemon didnt know his wife Estre was serving Mehrunes Dagon or other princes, unless he was a complete idiot, and if thats the case then he wouldnt be fit to lead.
As ive stated it said in game that Estre had sold her soul many times over. Who else did she sell herself to besides Dagon and Molag Bal?
She wouldve been Queen if Naemon became king. What do you think she wouldve been willing to do for power? She definitely would be more likely to screw around for power. Infact thats why she married Naemon. Shes got a thing for princes... but only 1 of them was mortal lol.

If I remember correctly, the marriage seemed distant. Given their duties, I doubt they spent a whole lot of time together.

This isn't comparable to Aryenn's ignorance however. It wasn't Naemon's job to watch over his wife and her every move. It *was* however Aryenn's job to watch over her own military, especially when she's at war.

And frankly, what happened in Shadowfen was so messed up that even Molag Bal surely blushed. I'd take Estre over mass infanticide any day.

LittlePinkDot

I havent done the shadow fen quests yet. But considering alot of Ayrenns own soldiers and people didnt like her, its not hard to believe that maybe she didnt know what was going on there.

But back to Estre. She sided with Dagon and Molag Bal. Entities that want to destroy and enslave all of Tamriel. She also let the Daedra kill her own citizens in First hold. She also pretended to side with the Moarmer, letting them kill Auridon citizens. But hey, I guess the ends justify the means right?
Lets not forget that if Ayrenn didnt get the throne, then Naemon and Estre wouldve already been king and Queen before the Vestige even got there.

ZOS_Mika

Because we have had to remove a great number of off topic and inappropriate comments, we have decided to close this thread down. Thank you for your understanding.