Didn't ZOS say if CP-enabled Battlegrounds are bad, they will revert it? When will that be?

Ratzkifal

I am kind of a forum noob, so I don't really know which ZOS people to tag for this. But I do remember that ... @ZOS_GinaBruno , I think(?), said they would revert the CP change to battlegrounds if it didn't improve the situation. I would argue it just made it all worse, so I am curious if the numbers support that or don't and when ZOS will draw the line and revert the change as promised. Is that line coming? Have we passed it but change is slow? Or are things going just as planned by the developers?

Feel free to tag the actual people who should know and/or provide quotes supporting/refuting this.

ZOS_GinaBruno

We're planning to make Battlegrounds no-CP for all levels in Update 17 (the next big update).

Turelus

Depends if internally they're seeing more people playing or not. If they are then they won't make a change.

I would personally still like them to offer the options, I realise some No-CP people play CP still regardless but some (like myself) don't even bother now because there is no option at all.

Cyrodiil works fine with two options and I can't believe the population of no CP battlegrounds is so low it would be impossible to get a group.

WillhelmBlack

We're still waiting.

Ratzkifal

@Turelus Well I for one only barely play Battlegrounds anymore because of it. It's just less fun over all. Might also be caused by the premade groups but I doubt that. Those groups existed already before, so if at all its because you encounter these more often due to the lack of solo players (which I think is caused by the CP change that allows tanks to be viable).

Turelus

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Turelus Well I for one only barely play Battlegrounds anymore because of it. It's just less fun over all. Might also be caused by the premade groups but I doubt that. Those groups existed already before, so if at all its because you encounter these more often due to the lack of solo players (which I think is caused by the CP change that allows tanks to be viable).

The thing is for each one of us who hates it (and vocalises that) there will be those who like it.
Only ZOS will have the numbers of if this is more people or not, however as I said fighting for the option to choose is a better idea that flip flopping back and forth on what system is chosen. Especially as people are or have purchased Morrowind under the belief it was one type.

Emma_Overload

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

Ratzkifal

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

If you want to treat yourself to a worse balance situation simply because you spent hours if not days on reaching your current CP level, then that's your thing. The bigger issue at stake is the health of the game balance, not how much time you or anyone else invested. I got 720CP right now and I support the removal of it despite the time I put into that.

Reverb

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

I too spent hours and hours earning my CP. Actually no, I spent those hours playing the game, and the CP were a side effect. At any rate, I have nearly 1200 CP, and join the voices of those saying that BG are far worse with them.

I've said before, adding CP to Battlegrounds put a spotlight on how corrosive CP are to Zeni's balancing attempts, and how it will only get worse with the power creep of the ever-increasing cap. I've reached a point that I feel the game would be better served, and balance easier to achieve, if CP were removed from all PvP modes, and used for pve content only.

gabormezo

Actually I like CP PvP much better. There should be an option to queue for CP and no-CP modes, everyone would be happy.

Solariken

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

@Emma_Overload it's completely fine for you to hold the opinion that CP PvP is better. However it is objectively true that the CP system is not conducive to BG PvP. It is supposed to be fast-paced action where everyone runs out of resources and everyone dies. CP has so many problems that get in the way of that it's disgusting. Furthermore I've played thousands of BG's at all different times of day and have never seen you in one - that's not to say you don't play them but I do wonder how much of a leg you have to stand on with your assertion.

Elsonso

I sort of expect no changes until the next Chapter.

bubbygink

I have ~900 CP. It's totally disingenerous to say I "spent 2.5 years grinding" that. I just played the game and the CP came over time. I didn't put in any kind of hard/special work to earn it. But my years of experience have made me a good player who has a great knowledge about the game. When I win a BG, it should be because of that - because those hours and hours I have played made me a master of my class and game mechanics. It should not be because I have 300 CP more than my oponent. BGs are the one place for competitive PvP and I want to fight people on an even playing field. High CP people should not be afraid to fight low CP people on an even playing field. If you have that much more CP then you should also have that much more experience. Win with experience, not with some artificial advantage via CP. Let everyone, including new players, be on an even playing field. I want the challenge. Make it a fair fight. Remove CP from BGs.

Ratzkifal

gabormezo wrote: »

Actually I like CP PvP much better. There should be an option to queue for CP and no-CP modes, everyone would be happy.

Yeah, I would prefer that too but it seems Zenimax doesn't want to have two systems running at the same time (for whatever reason. Performance perhaps?)

lordrichter wrote: »

I sort of expect no changes until the next Chapter.

Same. But it would be good to let us know what they are thinking. I guess that will come along with news about next chapter.

Emma_Overload

Solariken wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

@Emma_Overload it's completely fine for you to hold the opinion that CP PvP is better. However it is objectively true that the CP system is not conducive to BG PvP. It is supposed to be fast-paced action where everyone runs out of resources and everyone dies. CP has so many problems that get in the way of that it's disgusting. Furthermore I've played thousands of BG's at all different times of day and have never seen you in one - that's not to say you don't play them but I do wonder how much of a leg you have to stand on with your assertion.

What assertion? You're not even responding to the comment you just quoted, you're just offering your opinion on why you don't like CP in Battlegrounds. I literally BOLDED the phrase "there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds", and then went on to explain that Champion System represented massive investment in player time, and that ZOS had no business taking CP away from any part of the game.

Let me be more explicit: I DON'T CARE about the CP vs. No-CP argument! If you want to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or wherever... THAT'S GREAT, if ZOS offers you the OPTION to do so. What I do care about is that I am able to play with CP in EVERY area of the game. Therefore, ZOS should offer us BOTH the option to play with CP or No-CP. What I am NOT OK with is ZOS taking away the CP option from Battlegrounds based on complaint threads like these or for any other reason.

idk

Turelus wrote: »

Depends if internally they're seeing more people playing or not. If they are then they won't make a change.

I would personally still like them to offer the options, I realise some No-CP people play CP still regardless but some (like myself) don't even bother now because there is no option at all.

Cyrodiil works fine with two options and I can't believe the population of no CP battlegrounds is so low it would be impossible to get a group.

I would think Zos would look at the metrics they should have available to determine which has more participation. That would speak much louder than threads in the forums. Not meaning any offense to OP and his opinion and preferences.

Also, the total participating in both times and more importantly the total that have consistently played in one or the other but not both would help them find if an option for queuing CP or non-CP could be viable. Remember, BGs are not accessible to everyone like Cyrodiil and that will not be changing, well, not if we want Zos to continue to work on new PvP options.

Beardimus

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

So far I've seen you and one other take this stance. And the rest of us the opposite.

Let me give context however. I hated the idea BG was no-CP, like you. I wanted my progression to mean something. I didn't want to make.new gear for BG specifically.

ut I wanted to play small scale. So I got MW ad played them, and I was amazed at the action. Fast paced, intense and a breath of fresh air from Vivec something different and better.

I assumed it was just the Battleground pace / maps / tactics. That is until CP dropped and the fights became as Vivec, slug tests. The pace has slowed and become zerh warfare with matches now going this distance. It's ruined them.

If you didn't play before, then you can't comment on that as you won't know. The rest of us, BG loyal from launch, can comment as we have tried both.

It's that different I'm now interested in playing Sotha Sil and encouraging groups in as honestly no-CP has a refreshing pace.

Don't knock it.till you have tried it, and the proof is in the feedback. Most players before have left, low CP players have left. And those needing the CP crutch that first cane over have started to dwindle now.

Besides you and 1 other that's 2 voices I've heard would leave if CP went. Yet I know of at least 30+ on here alone that have left cos of CP. Forum isn't a guide of overall pop in particular on console, but it's representative.

Beardimus

@ZOS_GinaBruno please, please have some look into how stale BG matches are now.

Us Bg loyal players don't care if you open.them up to all players as base game functionality, just remove CP for the good of all (most - 99%)

Mihael

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

@Emma_Overload it's completely fine for you to hold the opinion that CP PvP is better. However it is objectively true that the CP system is not conducive to BG PvP. It is supposed to be fast-paced action where everyone runs out of resources and everyone dies. CP has so many problems that get in the way of that it's disgusting. Furthermore I've played thousands of BG's at all different times of day and have never seen you in one - that's not to say you don't play them but I do wonder how much of a leg you have to stand on with your assertion.

What assertion? You're not even responding to the comment you just quoted, you're just offering your opinion on why you don't like CP in Battlegrounds. I literally BOLDED the phrase "there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds", and then went on to explain that Champion System represented massive investment in player time, and that ZOS had no business taking CP away from any part of the game.

Let me be more explicit: I DON'T CARE about the CP vs. No-CP argument! If you want to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or wherever... THAT'S GREAT, if ZOS offers you the OPTION to do so. What I do care about is that I am able to play with CP in EVERY area of the game. Therefore, ZOS should offer us BOTH the option to play with CP or No-CP. What I am NOT OK with is ZOS taking away the CP option from Battlegrounds based on complaint threads like these or for any other reason.

It’s awesome that you love cp and all but Apart from being able to survive more in cp there really isn’t a difference build wise, and in no cp fights are faster and for the most part you don’t have to worry about tanks as much as you do in cp so unless you are one of them you should like to play in no cp it’s faster pace and a lot more fun

Turelus

idk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Depends if internally they're seeing more people playing or not. If they are then they won't make a change.

I would personally still like them to offer the options, I realise some No-CP people play CP still regardless but some (like myself) don't even bother now because there is no option at all.

Cyrodiil works fine with two options and I can't believe the population of no CP battlegrounds is so low it would be impossible to get a group.

I would think Zos would look at the metrics they should have available to determine which has more participation. That would speak much louder than threads in the forums. Not meaning any offense to OP and his opinion and preferences.

Also, the total participating in both times and more importantly the total that have consistently played in one or the other but not both would help them find if an option for queuing CP or non-CP could be viable. Remember, BGs are not accessible to everyone like Cyrodiil and that will not be changing, well, not if we want Zos to continue to work on new PvP options.

I agree with the access and I think this is another place ZOS dropped the ball. They should have sold BG as a stand alone and not used it to make Morrowind appealing to PvP folk.

We already have the dilution of those who own Morrowind vs those who don't, then who owns HotR, then CP vs non-CP, soon who owns 2018 dungeon pack vs who doesn't. It's just going to get worse as more parts of it are locked behind new content paywalls.

I get that ZOS wants to sell the BG maps, and I even supported some things above in the past now however I see issues with this going forward.

Emma_Overload

Beardimus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I refuse to play No-CP in BGs or Cyrodiil or anywhere, so if they remove CP Battlegrounds, I'm done with them.

People, there are bigger issues at stake here than Battlegrounds. Players have spent THOUSANDS of hours of their lives grinding CP. ZOS has no business reneging on the Champion System, when paying customers have invested so much into it!

So far I've seen you and one other take this stance. And the rest of us the opposite.

Let me give context however. I hated the idea BG was no-CP, like you. I wanted my progression to mean something. I didn't want to make.new gear for BG specifically.

ut I wanted to play small scale. So I got MW ad played them, and I was amazed at the action. Fast paced, intense and a breath of fresh air from Vivec something different and better.

I assumed it was just the Battleground pace / maps / tactics. That is until CP dropped and the fights became as Vivec, slug tests. The pace has slowed and become zerh warfare with matches now going this distance. It's ruined them.

If you didn't play before, then you can't comment on that as you won't know. The rest of us, BG loyal from launch, can comment as we have tried both.

It's that different I'm now interested in playing Sotha Sil and encouraging groups in as honestly no-CP has a refreshing pace.

Don't knock it.till you have tried it, and the proof is in the feedback. Most players before have left, low CP players have left. And those needing the CP crutch that first cane over have started to dwindle now.

Besides you and 1 other that's 2 voices I've heard would leave if CP went. Yet I know of at least 30+ on here alone that have left cos of CP. Forum isn't a guide of overall pop in particular on console, but it's representative.

I've played No-CP, and it's horrible for Sorcs because your shields are tiny and the moment you get focused by more than one player you are dead. This is why you only hear about Sorcs hiding in the bushes and stealing kills with Fury in Battlegrounds. Battlegrounds already have numerous problems, principally the premade vs. randoms problem, but that has nothing to do with CP. Taking away CP only makes these problems worse because it hinders you from adapting a build to try to address these problems.

You guys make it sound like I'm the only person with a different point of view, but you are obviously wrong because what about all those "unkillable tank" builds you guys are complaining about? Where do THEY fit into this argument? I'll tell you exactly what's going on. Those guys are using gear and CP and various strategies to avoid being focused and stomped. Yeah, I understand that it's not as much "fun" for the pro players that they can't murder those guys in 2 seconds like they can in No-CP, but as far as I'm concerned, their builds and playstyles are a legitimate response to the circumstances of Battlegrounds.

Furthermore, all the problems that you guys are complaining about regarding CP exist Cyrodiil and IC, too, they're just not as obvious as they are in BGs. ZOS needs to figure out a way to address these issues (unkillable tanks, etc.) without taking away players' progression in any part of the game.

Paganini

I also think that the no-cp were better. Just check the rankings since cp's are activated.. Nr1: always 100k+ points, Nr50: always between 10-20k. There is a huge span, that shows only a few ppl are playing BG's anymore. (PC-EU)

Beardimus

I main a Sorc, and only play a sorc in BG and have to say the opposite. As a DPS No-CP is ten times better for Sorcs and DPS in general. You are the first DPS / Sorc I've heard to say CP is better, its quite a surprise!!

The people that gain right now are those stacking defence and are hard to kill, thus slowing game play and changing the dynamic. The more organised players dominate more in CP as many dont know how to properly assign CP even.

CP is skewed towards defence that's the bigger issue with CP.

Pre-made vs Pug was a problem from launch, and I was vocal on that. But as I improved I realised many Pugs look like pre-Mades because they are just good players working well.

CP has changed the pace dynamic. It's not about me being better or worse or surviving more or less which seems to be your argument, more around how well you do. I do well in both but in NO-CP the action is ten times better and more suited to small scale, feisty matches.

This doesn't need to be an extension of vivec. It's short, fast action, not drawn out 5 minute Zerg ball tests like it is now. That's for Cyrodiil.

You are right the problems exist in Cyrodiil too but this isn't about then Battlegrounds were a refreshing change to that as they worked. And were something new. Now they are the same feel and that's not cool. It's also not healthy

Sure to your point the CP crutch unkillables have rocked up, absent names before. But we have lost the purist BG players from before and more so the CP10-400/450 players who hate it now as they get stomped.

It feels like you didn't get on well in no-cp and so are blaming that. I'm talking bigger picture about how BG fit in and it being something different for the game.

Either way you win right now as CP is on. Hopefully for us that were loyal to BG from launch they will turn off. Or as a post said yesterday they offer choice in the queue, but that could hurt pop.

However id happily have BG go free to all to fix that, and remain no-cp for the action and increased pop of lower CP players. Done.

idk

Turelus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Depends if internally they're seeing more people playing or not. If they are then they won't make a change.

I would personally still like them to offer the options, I realise some No-CP people play CP still regardless but some (like myself) don't even bother now because there is no option at all.

Cyrodiil works fine with two options and I can't believe the population of no CP battlegrounds is so low it would be impossible to get a group.

I would think Zos would look at the metrics they should have available to determine which has more participation. That would speak much louder than threads in the forums. Not meaning any offense to OP and his opinion and preferences.

Also, the total participating in both times and more importantly the total that have consistently played in one or the other but not both would help them find if an option for queuing CP or non-CP could be viable. Remember, BGs are not accessible to everyone like Cyrodiil and that will not be changing, well, not if we want Zos to continue to work on new PvP options.

I agree with the access and I think this is another place ZOS dropped the ball. They should have sold BG as a stand alone and not used it to make Morrowind appealing to PvP folk.

We already have the dilution of those who own Morrowind vs those who don't, then who owns HotR, then CP vs non-CP, soon who owns 2018 dungeon pack vs who doesn't. It's just going to get worse as more parts of it are locked behind new content paywalls.

I get that ZOS wants to sell the BG maps, and I even supported some things above in the past now however I see issues with this going forward.

Considering how someone who just wants to PvP can get off playing this game on the cheap I understand Zos bundling BGs into Morrowind.

Those that want to BG will purchase it. Besides, it keeps out the riff raff, lol

MurderMostFoul

ZOS is currently testing CP BGs. Soon, they will have plenty of data on both CP and non-CP BGs.

Next, it would make sense for ZOS to test offering a CP queue and a Non-CP queue at the same time. Only then would they know if the player base can support this split. One would have to expect that the total number of players in BGs would be greater if they offered this split as to would draw in all the folks who will only do one or the other. Each separate queue would likely be smaller, but as long as each are getting matches, who cares?

@ZOS_GinaBruno, any chance we could see this test?

ajaxtheboss

I enjoy BG with and without CP, without too much bias, I believe no-cp BG had more people playing with the wait to queue being around 5 seconds even at non-prime time. With CP BG I've had to wait upwards of 2-3 minutes non-prime time.

Now, in my personal opinion, cp brought the ukillable tanks into BG. Everyone wears heavy armor with a ton of cp into healong received and healing done and heal crits. So objective oriented game modes are just a drag if there's one. Now if you face a premade team of heavy armor users spamming vigor on each other and can't even drop their health bars.. well. Good luck.

I know non-cp bg had a meta of magsorcs, but at least there was more variety in all class builds.

Anethum

I think, removing cp now will not remove the balance problem anyway.
In some things its good, that its with cp now, to get good picture of how unbalanced it is and what need to he done to improve this.
good nursery to investigate issues.
But, it should be a choice here, options in group finder to play with or without for players.
Freedom to choose, hope they will add both modes to battlegrounds

Waffennacht

I got, "this is my first time," from a group of mid level CPs.

Due to the change, my response was, "BGs are for veterans"

Until it's noCP, I will continue to hate every sub 500 BG PuG. You don't belong here

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

I got, "this is my first time," from a group of mid level CPs.

Due to the change, my response was, "BGs are for veterans"

Until it's noCP, I will continue to hate every sub 500 BG PuG. You don't belong here

They belong in BGs. Just... on the other team.

Vaoh

Waffennacht wrote: »

I got, "this is my first time," from a group of mid level CPs.

Due to the change, my response was, "BGs are for veterans"

Until it's noCP, I will continue to hate every sub 500 BG PuG. You don't belong here

^^can’t even blame you. Can’t blame the poor lower-CP players either. This is what happens when you join BGs now - winning is almost pure RNG of what CPlevel players your team is made up of.

In the past I constantly won games in no-CP because I was good enough to carry even a bad team. But with CP-enabled? There are far more premade teams, tank permablockers, ridiculous Healers, crazy burst from mainly Stam, the Heavy Armor Stam builds that are actually OP this patch..... all of the issues of Cyrodiil are now in BGs. It can take a group to kill one well-made tank who is planted on a flag. The whole dynamic of the gameplay in BGs has become toxic.

paallterrain148

When I see low CP in bgs or open world I just cringe and hope they run away. I have no fun facerolling solo or duo newbies.

I have noticed, if playing objectives, I'm much better off on almy templar healer just tanking damage and not really doing dps. Just sustain and take objectives, no need to really kill anyone. Also I have significantly more matches go to the time limit, I don't think in no-cp I ever had one go the time limit. Now it does, all the time.

Battlegrounds could be great, unfortunately it's not. CP is part of the problem, but their are other gameplay issues there as well. I'd much rather whatever fix it is effect PvP in a whole to improve it then just bgs. While no cp bgs was better, its still bunk to play no CP bgs, then jump into CP open world.

Waffennacht

paallterrain148 wrote: »

When I see low CP in bgs or open world I just cringe and hope they run away. I have no fun facerolling solo or duo newbies.

I have noticed, if playing objectives, I'm much better off on almy templar healer just tanking damage and not really doing dps. Just sustain and take objectives, no need to really kill anyone. Also I have significantly more matches go to the time limit, I don't think in no-cp I ever had one go the time limit. Now it does, all the time.

Battlegrounds could be great, unfortunately it's not. CP is part of the problem, but their are other gameplay issues there as well. I'd much rather whatever fix it is effect PvP in a whole to improve it then just bgs. While no cp bgs was better, its still bunk to play no CP bgs, then jump into CP open world.

I gotta agree with that last bit too. It does suck jumping between no CP and CP

However, I have never been upset with allies like I do in CP BGs.

There's also players that just stand because they don't want that punishment but know it's already over.

I end up talking more #$&+ about allies than my enemies!!