Was a Modern Tamriel ever envisioned?

ArchMikem

The Elder Scrolls has always taken place in a Medeival Fantasy setting, with dabs of Industrialized technology introduced by the Dwemer. But was a fully fledged modern civilization on Tamriel ever concieved? Even fan artist depictions or writings? Electricity, Manufacturing, robust Infrastructure connecting the Provinces, a practical public method of Information transfer over long distance?

Not to mention the Politics of a modern Era. Would the Empire persist? Would one of the other peoples rise up to take the place as the new continous power such as the Elves or Bretons or even Khajiiti? Or would the world finally grow tired of an "Empire" and just revert to independent Kingdoms and Nation States.

Rohamad_Ali

This one believes it was in visioned but the the 9-5 playstyle and customer service time sinks didn't rate popular with most Khajiit , preferring less technology and more Skooma instead .

Lokryn

I've read some neat fan theories that the world of Tamriel and its technologies are actually devolving/regressing over time rather than advancing.

https://youtu.be/7MrAWS-MiMU

starkerealm

Lokryn wrote: »

I've read some neat fan theories that the world of Tamriel and its technologies are actually devolving/regressing over time rather than advancing.

https://youtu.be/7MrAWS-MiMU

Yeah, the video makes a few good points, but misses some critical detail. I don't know if it was an intentional homage or not, but TES3 partially builds into the idea from the middle ages that the inhabitants lived in a fallen world. Specifically, the term you'll sometimes see is postlapsarian.

TES's technological development and political status puts it somewhere in the 8th to 10th century (with some anachronisms). (When we're talking about the single player games, anyway.) Given that Skyrim and Oblivion are only 200 years apart, the relative lack of technological advancement isn't that strange. Especially given the deterioration of The Empire in that time.

Particularly, in Europe during the dark ages, the ancient world was seen as a wondrous place, with technological marvels that were lost to the "modern" world. Which makes sense if you're emptying your waste onto the street in a bucket, and being told that the Romans had indoor plumbing.

This was further compounded by rhetorical effect and embellishment. Consider that Plato basically invented Atlantis to make an argument. "Hey, look how cool it would be if we did things this way, but let me explain this via the method of saying, 'but it worked before.'" At that point all kinds of marvelous and mythical technologies that never existed (or weren't as impressive as they were presented) get accepted as fact, because no one alive has the frame of reference to challenge it and say, "but, wait-a-minute, that's not how that worked," or, "Plato was habitually full of [gratuitous censorship]."

Within that context, TES's technological development isn't that strange. The only part that becomes questionable is why hasn't there been faster development due to magic... which might actually be why. Magic did allow technologies like smithing to advance far faster than in the real world, but it seems to have stagnated (at a roughly 15th century level.) Probably because it's dealing with materials that are flat out impossible to create on Earth, (like Ebony or Orichalcum (oh, right, "orichalcum" is another piece of Plato's Atlantis story, by the way, though it's supposed to be a golden bronze, rather than green)), and as a result you have heavy armor forging that has access to materials far in advance of anything you'd see in the real world. Meaning there's less incentive to develop that technology further.

The other thing that, ironically, probably impairs technological advancement in Tamriel is that Alchemy is too good. That is to say, Alchemy has accepted and effective, magical properties. In the real world alchemy lead to the development of chemistry, and with it, a lot of our understanding of the modern world. But, on Tamriel, because of how alchemy functions, it takes scientific research out at the knees.

Also, it's distinctly possible that Tamriel lacks advanced mathematics. Not sure how that happened, but here we are. Which further puts a hard lock on technological development.

He's not completely wrong about Skyrim. It's not exactly, post-apocalyptic. But 4e200 is an apocalyptic setting. The world is watching the literal end times unfold, as a dragon that is prophesied to devour the world is bouncing around waking up his buddies after an unusually long bender. So, depending on what Bethesda does, it's distinctly possible that TES6 will be post -apocalyptic.

Though, at this point, it's probably worth remembering that early on in Skyrim's development, it was (according to rumors which have popped up a couple times, and been partially confirmed by Bethesda devs) slated to be a Game of Thrones tie-in, rather than a TES title. This was abandoned, but, it's a large part of why Oblivion to Skyrim jumps from Late-Roman Empire to War of the Roses in tone and flavor.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

ArchMikem wrote: »

The Elder Scrolls has always taken place in a Medeival Fantasy setting, with dabs of Industrialized technology introduced by the Dwemer. But was a fully fledged modern civilization on Tamriel ever concieved? Even fan artist depictions or writings? Electricity, Manufacturing, robust Infrastructure connecting the Provinces, a practical public method of Information transfer over long distance?

The Altmer would like to officially protest the assumption that their culture is not modern or civilized.

Seriously, if we go based on the cut content for Summerset the Varlines seem to perform the same function as electrical power lines – they use it to bind Daedra to do most of their menial labor rather than machines.

Also, back in Reman's Empire there were astronaut-equivalents called 'mananauts' – both the Altmer and the Empire had some, though the Altmer might have called theirs something different.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Not to mention the Politics of a modern Era. Would the Empire persist? Would one of the other peoples rise up to take the place as the new continous power such as the Elves or Bretons or even Khajiiti? Or would the world finally grow tired of an "Empire" and just revert to independent Kingdoms and Nation States.

The Empire temporarily dissolved after Martin performed his sacrifice, only bits of it pulled back together and the Third Aldmeri Dominon is rising up to take its place.

Korah_Eaglecry

Kirkbride, one of the writers for Morrowind, has done Fanfic since leaving Bethesda that has envisioned a futuristic Nirn. But Elder Scrolls was always meant to be a medievalish fantasy setting. These sort of settings are always locked into a time medieval time period.

MythicEmperor

Not modern, but something more...

platonicidealgirlfriend

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Kirkbride, one of the writers for Morrowind, has done Fanfic since leaving Bethesda that has envisioned a futuristic Nirn. But Elder Scrolls was always meant to be a medievalish fantasy setting. These sort of settings are always locked into a time medieval time period.

"fan fiction" is a weird term for something made by the creative director of TES III, but also if you had read it you'd know that it specifically doesn't take place on Nirn.

https://www.c0da.es/

starkerealm

Weird, but not wholly inaccurate.

Though, worth noting that Kirkbride was credited as a Concept Artist, and an additional writer. Ken Rolston was the Lead Designer, who's inclinations as a writer run 180 degrees from Kirkbride's.

Kirkbride left Bethesda after Morrowind, and was brought back in on a temporary basis for Knights of the Nine (and, I think, Shivering Isles). Both of which released after Rolston had left Bethesda. After that Kirkbride and Bethesda parted ways again.

Now, C0DA was written while Kirkbride was not employed by Bethesda. Because of how video game canons are established and curated (particularly the specific rules Bethesda has regarding TES's canon material), C0DA is, in fact, a fan work. Granted, it's Kirkbride being a fan of his own work, but it's not part of the setting.

There's an interview with Douglas Goodall from a few years back where he talks about how some of the stuff he wrote never actually made it into the in game lit, and as a result isn't part of the setting proper, if you want more insight to this.

But, ultimately, yeah, C0DA is fanfiction from a former employee.

LMar

A lot of the modern stuff is explored via the Dwemer and Sotha Sil's interpretation and then expansion on the concepts. It is worth noting that mathematics in the Elder Scrolls universe is basically advanced magic and physics work differently. So Dwemer were basically tinkering with the fastenings of the world when performing advanced science. When the world is made up from the dead bodies of the gods that made it and outer space is basically another dimensional plane with spirits then if you tinker enough you can become part of what you are studying. Which is one theory of what happened to the Dwemer.

I guess we are mostly talking about modern culture and technology instead but with the same reasoning if your culture is based on instructions from a higher power which you have proof exists or in emulation of a deity who told you to walk/live this way in order to become a deity yourself then you strive for that.

As mentioned above the society of the Altmer is sufficiently advanced, brings comfort and fulfills all their needs using magic and rules. Not sure why a civilisation needs to follow the rules that we ourselves think are what an "advanced society" is. I mean, in 100 years the idea of an advanced society will be pretty different.
An Altmer would wonder why we toil 9 to 5 to live in a small cramped flat and use screens to escape our reality while he uses magic to gain what he needs and just studies in order to understand his ancestor better in order to become a god himself

KRBMMO

When magic gets to a certain level of advancement technology is crude and awkward and not needed.

With magic you already have FTL travel - so why invent a dirty noisy alternative? Why bother with gunpowder when you have a Destro Staff?

Who needs a sewer system when you can just have a few Wardens turning all human waste into butterflies and flowers?

Also not science, but Magic already pretty much decides the weather, climate, flora and fauna of the regions - there's absolutely zero scientific reason why the Alakir Desert exists, for example or why giant Mushrooms can grow in a hot dry ashy climate - every mushroom we know about on Earth needs moist and cool growing conditions. Mushrooms just don't grow in hot volcanic ash.

Actually what I think would be cool is if the current siege equipment was instead something that requires a crew to fire magical ordinance.

zaria

TES is not 8-10th century AD, its far better organized and technology level is far more advanced.
The sawmills in Skyrim is an 1600-1700 design, including the carriage return.
They have an replica close to there I live, windmills, window glass, most of all printing, books are cheap and common. probably too cheap as it would require industrialized printing to get them so common as in the game, still process might be halfway magic.

Progress is very different however, magic changes the needs for one.

And yes during medieval times they looked at the ruins of the ancient civilizations with wonder, it was more about organization than technology however European countries in later medieval time had better technology than the Romans, far better with metal and water was used as power source a lot but weak feudal countries unable of large projects

The Dwemer show a bit how advanced technology in tamriel would work out, it would include a lot of magic.
The large robots uses steam for power and is magically controlled, the small also used magic for power but for all the movement is mechanic.

starkerealm wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

I've read some neat fan theories that the world of Tamriel and its technologies are actually devolving/regressing over time rather than advancing.

https://youtu.be/7MrAWS-MiMU

Yeah, the video makes a few good points, but misses some critical detail. I don't know if it was an intentional homage or not, but TES3 partially builds into the idea from the middle ages that the inhabitants lived in a fallen world. Specifically, the term you'll sometimes see is postlapsarian.

TES's technological development and political status puts it somewhere in the 8th to 10th century (with some anachronisms). (When we're talking about the single player games, anyway.) Given that Skyrim and Oblivion are only 200 years apart, the relative lack of technological advancement isn't that strange. Especially given the deterioration of The Empire in that time.

Particularly, in Europe during the dark ages, the ancient world was seen as a wondrous place, with technological marvels that were lost to the "modern" world. Which makes sense if you're emptying your waste onto the street in a bucket, and being told that the Romans had indoor plumbing.

This was further compounded by rhetorical effect and embellishment. Consider that Plato basically invented Atlantis to make an argument. "Hey, look how cool it would be if we did things this way, but let me explain this via the method of saying, 'but it worked before.'" At that point all kinds of marvelous and mythical technologies that never existed (or weren't as impressive as they were presented) get accepted as fact, because no one alive has the frame of reference to challenge it and say, "but, wait-a-minute, that's not how that worked," or, "Plato was habitually full of [gratuitous censorship]."

Within that context, TES's technological development isn't that strange. The only part that becomes questionable is why hasn't there been faster development due to magic... which might actually be why. Magic did allow technologies like smithing to advance far faster than in the real world, but it seems to have stagnated (at a roughly 15th century level.) Probably because it's dealing with materials that are flat out impossible to create on Earth, (like Ebony or Orichalcum (oh, right, "orichalcum" is another piece of Plato's Atlantis story, by the way, though it's supposed to be a golden bronze, rather than green)), and as a result you have heavy armor forging that has access to materials far in advance of anything you'd see in the real world. Meaning there's less incentive to develop that technology further.

The other thing that, ironically, probably impairs technological advancement in Tamriel is that Alchemy is too good. That is to say, Alchemy has accepted and effective, magical properties. In the real world alchemy lead to the development of chemistry, and with it, a lot of our understanding of the modern world. But, on Tamriel, because of how alchemy functions, it takes scientific research out at the knees.

Also, it's distinctly possible that Tamriel lacks advanced mathematics. Not sure how that happened, but here we are. Which further puts a hard lock on technological development.

He's not completely wrong about Skyrim. It's not exactly, post-apocalyptic. But 4e200 is an apocalyptic setting. The world is watching the literal end times unfold, as a dragon that is prophesied to devour the world is bouncing around waking up his buddies after an unusually long bender. So, depending on what Bethesda does, it's distinctly possible that TES6 will be post -apocalyptic.

Though, at this point, it's probably worth remembering that early on in Skyrim's development, it was (according to rumors which have popped up a couple times, and been partially confirmed by Bethesda devs) slated to be a Game of Thrones tie-in, rather than a TES title. This was abandoned, but, it's a large part of why Oblivion to Skyrim jumps from Late-Roman Empire to War of the Roses in tone and flavor.

starkerealm

zaria wrote: »

TES is not 8-10th century AD, its far better organized and technology level is far more advanced.
The sawmills in Skyrim is an 1600-1700 design, including the carriage return.
They have an replica close to there I live, windmills, window glass, most of all printing, books are cheap and common. probably too cheap as it would require industrialized printing to get them so common as in the game, still process might be halfway magic.

As I said, with some anachronisms. TES isn't a franchise like Warhammer where you can point to the setting and say, "yeah, it is exactly this era, and this level of technology," (Warhammer Fantasy is explicitly Early Modern, for reference.)

TES, like a lot of fantasy settings, follows the Robert E. Howard historical bouillabaisse approach, and pulls in elements from all over the place. So you have waterwheels, and the printing press centuries before those technologies would have existed in the real world.

At that point, stepping back and extrapolating out the overall era to something analogous in the real world is going to result in some... "oddities." Also, worth remembering, I was talking specifically about 4e200 being roughly analogous to the 8th to 10th century, based on the overall political decay present. Not, that all of TES is locked in that timeframe. Go back to Oblivion and I'd actually say it's more in line with the fifteenth or sixteenth century, (so, hey, credit to you on that count), from the way the environment is presented. Paradoxically, that's also where I'd, roughly, peg ESO.

Also, note, I explicitly stated the technology is, well ahead of the 800-1000 range, particularly metallurgy, which is far more advanced than anything the real world had in that timeframe.

Honestly, when it comes to the books... it's a mess. So, ESO has someone explicitly inventing a printer (in one of the hireling mail chains). So far so good. Oblivion has mass printed broadsheets, and you'll actually get new issues of the Black Horse Courier as you play through the game. Much like Three Dog in Fallout 3, it reacts to your actions, and other world events, (though I don't remember it responding to your decisions explicitly, the way Three Dog did.)

The pricing of books certainly supports that idea. They're common, and cheap (relatively). At the same time, there's a large quantity of information decay in the setting, that suggests stuff isn't being recorded at all. Particularly when it comes to magic, and spells being stripped off the list with each release. I get why Passwall was removed, for example, but it still feels strange that something this useful would be forgotten.

I'm inclined to chalk this up to BGS not understanding (or not caring) how much work and effort goes into maintaining a printing press. But, of course, once you have the idea, it does do really weird things for technological development as a whole.

zaria wrote: »

Progress is very different however, magic changes the needs for one.

And yes during medieval times they looked at the ruins of the ancient civilizations with wonder, it was more about organization than technology however European countries in later medieval time had better technology than the Romans, far better with metal and water was used as power source a lot but weak feudal countries unable of large projects

The Dwemer show a bit how advanced technology in tamriel would work out, it would include a lot of magic.
The large robots uses steam for power and is magically controlled, the small also used magic for power but for all the movement is mechanic.

It'd probably be more accurate to say that the Dwarves set the tone for one possible path of technological development in Tamriel. You could just as easily see something like Warhammer's High Elves or even Magic: The Gathering's Ravnica, if magical and technological development continues unchecked.

BrianDavion

I think saying "Skyrim is 8th-10th century because of the political decay" is a bit of a abd oidea. people are talking tech level. and tech level Tamerial seems to be a ROUGHLY gunpowderless rennisciance

starkerealm

BrianDavion wrote: »

I think saying "Skyrim is 8th-10th century because of the political decay" is a bit of a abd oidea. people are talking tech level. and tech level Tamerial seems to be a ROUGHLY gunpowderless rennisciance

Skyrim as in TES5, as in 4e200. Which, yeah, like I said, it's bizarre in context with the rest of the franchise.

zaria

starkerealm wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

TES is not 8-10th century AD, its far better organized and technology level is far more advanced.
The sawmills in Skyrim is an 1600-1700 design, including the carriage return.
They have an replica close to there I live, windmills, window glass, most of all printing, books are cheap and common. probably too cheap as it would require industrialized printing to get them so common as in the game, still process might be halfway magic.

As I said, with some anachronisms. TES isn't a franchise like Warhammer where you can point to the setting and say, "yeah, it is exactly this era, and this level of technology," (Warhammer Fantasy is explicitly Early Modern, for reference.)

TES, like a lot of fantasy settings, follows the Robert E. Howard historical bouillabaisse approach, and pulls in elements from all over the place. So you have waterwheels, and the printing press centuries before those technologies would have existed in the real world.

At that point, stepping back and extrapolating out the overall era to something analogous in the real world is going to result in some... "oddities." Also, worth remembering, I was talking specifically about 4e200 being roughly analogous to the 8th to 10th century, based on the overall political decay present. Not, that all of TES is locked in that timeframe. Go back to Oblivion and I'd actually say it's more in line with the fifteenth or sixteenth century, (so, hey, credit to you on that count), from the way the environment is presented. Paradoxically, that's also where I'd, roughly, peg ESO.

Also, note, I explicitly stated the technology is, well ahead of the 800-1000 range, particularly metallurgy, which is far more advanced than anything the real world had in that timeframe.

Honestly, when it comes to the books... it's a mess. So, ESO has someone explicitly inventing a printer (in one of the hireling mail chains). So far so good. Oblivion has mass printed broadsheets, and you'll actually get new issues of the Black Horse Courier as you play through the game. Much like Three Dog in Fallout 3, it reacts to your actions, and other world events, (though I don't remember it responding to your decisions explicitly, the way Three Dog did.)

The pricing of books certainly supports that idea. They're common, and cheap (relatively). At the same time, there's a large quantity of information decay in the setting, that suggests stuff isn't being recorded at all. Particularly when it comes to magic, and spells being stripped off the list with each release. I get why Passwall was removed, for example, but it still feels strange that something this useful would be forgotten.

I'm inclined to chalk this up to BGS not understanding (or not caring) how much work and effort goes into maintaining a printing press. But, of course, once you have the idea, it does do really weird things for technological development as a whole.

zaria wrote: »

Progress is very different however, magic changes the needs for one.

And yes during medieval times they looked at the ruins of the ancient civilizations with wonder, it was more about organization than technology however European countries in later medieval time had better technology than the Romans, far better with metal and water was used as power source a lot but weak feudal countries unable of large projects

The Dwemer show a bit how advanced technology in tamriel would work out, it would include a lot of magic.
The large robots uses steam for power and is magically controlled, the small also used magic for power but for all the movement is mechanic.

It'd probably be more accurate to say that the Dwarves set the tone for one possible path of technological development in Tamriel. You could just as easily see something like Warhammer's High Elves or even Magic: The Gathering's Ravnica, if magical and technological development continues unchecked.

Printing presses are pretty simple to make, had been no problem making them in the bronze age, but you probably would not have an marked, in the Roman empire however they would be very nice.

My guess its an interest in restricting access to powerful spells both of security issues but also so mages keep an monopoly on it. Add that theories of advanced illusion spellcrafting would sell less than the lusty argonian maid
Simpler spells who many could use was far more widespread and did not get lost.
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Lots of simple technology was not invented for long times simply as nobody thought of it, horse collar and stirrups are two.

On the other hand others like steam is harder as it require lots of accuracy in getting the piston to seal well enough.
This was also an major issue with guns and guns helped a lot teaching us to make good and strong cylinders.
In short the Romans could not build an steam engine.
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And yes both Skyrim and ESO is set during times of trouble, fall of Rome is an obvious one but it has been plenty of them during history