I don’t understand something. Bad writing? (Morrowind spoilers)

ThePrinceOfBargains

During the Morrowind storyline, Azura says she can’t interfere due to an ancient pact with Sotha Sil. However, Sheogorath seemingly violates this pact several times, most notably when he is summoned in Southpoint, physically manifests, and later attacks us directly.

But I’m now reading that this pact shouldn’t even still be in effect. It was only supposed to be for the duration of the war between Morrowind and the Reman Empire. When was it extended? And if it actually was, why do the rules apparently not apply to Sheogorath, who agreed to the deal as well?

Abeille

We do not know the exact terms of the Coldharbour Compact unless I missed something, but aren't they forbidden to actually enter Nirn at their full power only? And anything else would be okay? I don't think Sheogorath was at his full power in any of these quests. Otherwise, we would have absolutely no chance, not at our mortal state, against him.

That, or Azura is the only nerd that cares for honoring old promises (I'm kidding! I'm kidding).

Either way, no need to jump straight to the "bad writing/plot hole" conclusion.

Elsonso

I am also not sure that we should expect Sotha Sil to speak for all of Nirn. The scope of his deal might be strongest only in and around Morrowind because it is Sotha Sil that enforces it. He might not care as much about places like Grahtwood.

Abeille

lordrichter wrote: »

I am also not sure that we should expect Sotha Sil to speak for all of Nirn. The scope of his deal might be strongest only in and around Morrowind because it is Sotha Sil that enforces it. He might not care as much about places like Grahtwood.

I wouldn't say that since Gil-Var-Delle is in Grahtwood and its destruction was what lead to the Coldharbour Compact in the first place, so I think Sil cares (#1 Nirn Dad).

It is probably because none of the Daedric Princes actually entered Nirn in their "true, terrifying form" (that's how it is described the form Mehrunes Dagon used when entering Nirn in Oblivion, if I am not mistaken). Even Molag Bal technically was trying to bring Nirn to him and not enter Nirn (though, is it said that he is at full power during the Imperial City invasion?).

Meddling in mortal affairs, though? That they do all the time.

Mettaricana

If i remember correctly azura boethiah and mephala are the only ones bound from entering the world of mortals in their entirety. They have been effectively replaced by the tribunal in the eyes of the dunmer people. Also i believe they are only limited to not enter vvardenfell or morrowind as a whole. Rest of nirn is open game also azura is a watcher not a foghter ahe likes to push things along but doesnt like to directly i terfere woth anything

Vizikul

Not all of the daedric princes agreed on the ancient pact.

Elsonso

Abeille wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am also not sure that we should expect Sotha Sil to speak for all of Nirn. The scope of his deal might be strongest only in and around Morrowind because it is Sotha Sil that enforces it. He might not care as much about places like Grahtwood.

I wouldn't say that since Gil-Var-Delle is in Grahtwood and its destruction was what lead to the Coldharbour Compact in the first place, so I think Sil cares (#1 Nirn Dad).

It is probably because none of the Daedric Princes actually entered Nirn in their "true, terrifying form" (that's how it is described the form Mehrunes Dagon used when entering Nirn in Oblivion, if I am not mistaken). Even Molag Bal technically was trying to bring Nirn to him and not enter Nirn (though, is it said that he is at full power during the Imperial City invasion?).

Meddling in mortal affairs, though? That they do all the time.

Since we don't know what Sotha Sil said, it is possible that his comment was more NIMBY than that. Daedric influences on Nirn are a danger to Morrowind, but as it is Sotha Sil that enforces it, he may be more interested in keeping them out of his back yard. It is not like Sotha Sil is throwing himself in front of the Anchors to save Nirn.

Abeille

Vizikul wrote: »

Not all of the daedric princes agreed on the ancient pact.

Sheogorath did, though. He was one of the eight who did.

"They came to mock at Tribune small
Came Schemer, Hunger, Hunter, all
Scryer, Pariah, Destroyer came
And Raver and Twilight just the same"

That's, in order, Molag Bal, Boethiah, Hircine, Hermaeus Mora, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath and Azura.

From dread Daedra save us, from Daedra keep us safe~

lordrichter wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am also not sure that we should expect Sotha Sil to speak for all of Nirn. The scope of his deal might be strongest only in and around Morrowind because it is Sotha Sil that enforces it. He might not care as much about places like Grahtwood.

I wouldn't say that since Gil-Var-Delle is in Grahtwood and its destruction was what lead to the Coldharbour Compact in the first place, so I think Sil cares (#1 Nirn Dad).

It is probably because none of the Daedric Princes actually entered Nirn in their "true, terrifying form" (that's how it is described the form Mehrunes Dagon used when entering Nirn in Oblivion, if I am not mistaken). Even Molag Bal technically was trying to bring Nirn to him and not enter Nirn (though, is it said that he is at full power during the Imperial City invasion?).

Meddling in mortal affairs, though? That they do all the time.

Since we don't know what Sotha Sil said, it is possible that his comment was more NIMBY than that. Daedric influences on Nirn are a danger to Morrowind, but as it is Sotha Sil that enforces it, he may be more interested in keeping them out of his back yard. It is not like Sotha Sil is throwing himself in front of the Anchors to save Nirn.

Yeah, we don't know the exact terms of the Coldharbour Compact. We do not know if Sotha Sil included all of Nirn in it, okay, but if he did, I do not think Sheogorath's appearances in some quests go against it, because he didn't do what Mehrunes Dagon did, he didn't enter Nirn at full power, as far as we know.

starkerealm

Also, probably worth remembering, whatever the compact stipulates, it probably carries a lot less weight than the lighting of the Dragonfires in the Imperial City. Also remember that Sheogorath has demonstrated the ability, before, to bypass pacts which keep him out of Nirn.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

As far as we know they're not allowed to come to Nirn without an intermediary. So if someone on the approved list summoned him, he can show up. Here:

“The Daedra princes I spoke with have agreed to our terms,” he said flatly. “Disasters such as befell Gilverdale should be averted. Only through certain intermediaries such as witches or sorcerers will they answer the call of man and mer.”

I think the man who was the boss fight in Southpoint did it there, but it's been ages since I went through that quest.

Elsonso

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

As far as we know they're not allowed to come to Nirn without an intermediary. So if someone on the approved list summoned him, he can show up. Here:

“The Daedra princes I spoke with have agreed to our terms,” he said flatly. “Disasters such as befell Gilverdale should be averted. Only through certain intermediaries such as witches or sorcerers will they answer the call of man and mer.”

I think the man who was the boss fight in Southpoint did it there, but it's been ages since I went through that quest.

Ah yes, the Buffy the Vampire Slayer "don't invite the bad people into the house, Dawn" syndrome.

Abeille

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I think the man who was the boss fight in Southpoint did it there, but it's been ages since I went through that quest.

It seemed like it was him, yeah. The mayor. He made a deal with Sheogorath in order to try to maintain his power. Then you fight the mayor of the town, or you convince Sheogorath to take him to the Shivering Islands. Sheogorath says the mayor is his "favourite mortal" (and you are his "second favourite").
I'm pretty sure we do not face any of the Daedric Princes in Nirn directly in this game, at least not in the PvE maps, but I do not know how the event with Molag Bal goes in the Imperial City.
Also, isn't one of the known terms of the Compact that they can only be summoned on their summoning days? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

As far as we know they're not allowed to come to Nirn without an intermediary. So if someone on the approved list summoned him, he can show up. Here:

“The Daedra princes I spoke with have agreed to our terms,” he said flatly. “Disasters such as befell Gilverdale should be averted. Only through certain intermediaries such as witches or sorcerers will they answer the call of man and mer.”

I think the man who was the boss fight in Southpoint did it there, but it's been ages since I went through that quest.

Yeah. From the behavior of Sheogorath there, and also a few of the other quests (I'm thinking of the Barbas one in Reaper's March), the impression I get is that if anyone calls out to a Daedric Prince, or even if they simply call out and make a general, unaddressed, request, a Prince can take that as a personal invitation and drop by.

Assuming they're not able to disregard it at will, anyway.

Vizikul

Abeille wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

Not all of the daedric princes agreed on the ancient pact.

Sheogorath did, though. He was one of the eight who did.

"They came to mock at Tribune small
Came Schemer, Hunger, Hunter, all
Scryer, Pariah, Destroyer came
And Raver and Twilight just the same"

That's, in order, Molag Bal, Boethiah, Hircine, Hermaeus Mora, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath and Azura.

From dread Daedra save us, from Daedra keep us safe~

lordrichter wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am also not sure that we should expect Sotha Sil to speak for all of Nirn. The scope of his deal might be strongest only in and around Morrowind because it is Sotha Sil that enforces it. He might not care as much about places like Grahtwood.

I wouldn't say that since Gil-Var-Delle is in Grahtwood and its destruction was what lead to the Coldharbour Compact in the first place, so I think Sil cares (#1 Nirn Dad).

It is probably because none of the Daedric Princes actually entered Nirn in their "true, terrifying form" (that's how it is described the form Mehrunes Dagon used when entering Nirn in Oblivion, if I am not mistaken). Even Molag Bal technically was trying to bring Nirn to him and not enter Nirn (though, is it said that he is at full power during the Imperial City invasion?).

Meddling in mortal affairs, though? That they do all the time.

Since we don't know what Sotha Sil said, it is possible that his comment was more NIMBY than that. Daedric influences on Nirn are a danger to Morrowind, but as it is Sotha Sil that enforces it, he may be more interested in keeping them out of his back yard. It is not like Sotha Sil is throwing himself in front of the Anchors to save Nirn.

Yeah, we don't know the exact terms of the Coldharbour Compact. We do not know if Sotha Sil included all of Nirn in it, okay, but if he did, I do not think Sheogorath's appearances in some quests go against it, because he didn't do what Mehrunes Dagon did, he didn't enter Nirn at full power, as far as we know.

hmm, ok.

I really would like to know how Sotha Sil convinced someone like Molag Bal to restrict himself like that. I suppose it was some kind of trade off and he got something valuable in return? Otherwise I have no clue why he or the other daedric princes would agree on that.

TheNuminous1

Vizikul wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

Not all of the daedric princes agreed on the ancient pact.

Sheogorath did, though. He was one of the eight who did.

"They came to mock at Tribune small
Came Schemer, Hunger, Hunter, all
Scryer, Pariah, Destroyer came
And Raver and Twilight just the same"

That's, in order, Molag Bal, Boethiah, Hircine, Hermaeus Mora, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath and Azura.

From dread Daedra save us, from Daedra keep us safe~

lordrichter wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am also not sure that we should expect Sotha Sil to speak for all of Nirn. The scope of his deal might be strongest only in and around Morrowind because it is Sotha Sil that enforces it. He might not care as much about places like Grahtwood.

I wouldn't say that since Gil-Var-Delle is in Grahtwood and its destruction was what lead to the Coldharbour Compact in the first place, so I think Sil cares (#1 Nirn Dad).

It is probably because none of the Daedric Princes actually entered Nirn in their "true, terrifying form" (that's how it is described the form Mehrunes Dagon used when entering Nirn in Oblivion, if I am not mistaken). Even Molag Bal technically was trying to bring Nirn to him and not enter Nirn (though, is it said that he is at full power during the Imperial City invasion?).

Meddling in mortal affairs, though? That they do all the time.

Since we don't know what Sotha Sil said, it is possible that his comment was more NIMBY than that. Daedric influences on Nirn are a danger to Morrowind, but as it is Sotha Sil that enforces it, he may be more interested in keeping them out of his back yard. It is not like Sotha Sil is throwing himself in front of the Anchors to save Nirn.

Yeah, we don't know the exact terms of the Coldharbour Compact. We do not know if Sotha Sil included all of Nirn in it, okay, but if he did, I do not think Sheogorath's appearances in some quests go against it, because he didn't do what Mehrunes Dagon did, he didn't enter Nirn at full power, as far as we know.

hmm, ok.

I really would like to know how Sotha Sil convinced someone like Molag Bal to restrict himself like that. I suppose it was some kind of trade off and he got something valuable in return? Otherwise I have no clue why he or the other daedric princes would agree on that.

Im not really all that familiar with how powerful sotha sil really is. (yet yay clockwork) but it seems to me in the scheme of things that with no living aedra around. That the tribunal with access to aedric divinity might have enough power to mildly subdue some daedric princes. (of course its all just a game to them)

it just seems like out of the three sotha sil is really the most powerful and the most determined to find the extent of his power. so binding contracts with some major daedric princes might just be another test of his influence for him. i mean come on the guy has created his own microcosm. he creates living robotic creatures.

Korah_Eaglecry

I never took Azura at her word. She has no reason to be completely honest with us and I always felt she was more interested in letting someone else get their hands dirty on her behalf, which is something the Daedra do often through Champions, than to go breaking the pact. The pact was just an excuse to convince you to work on her behalf. She was hoping that you would take it at face value and not question it.

I imagine Azura could easily get directly involved with Morrowinds plot and put a stop to it. But her direct involvement would be something the Tribunal could not ignore. Even if it was on their behalf. Theyd need to put their foot down in that situation. And that might be what Azura is trying to avoid. So she goes about her involvement in a more non-direct way by sending someone to interfere on her behalf. This is something Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil could tolerate. They wouldnt need to save face in this sort of situation and they could choose to ignore Azuras involvement.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Vizikul wrote: »

I really would like to know how Sotha Sil convinced someone like Molag Bal to restrict himself like that. I suppose it was some kind of trade off and he got something valuable in return? Otherwise I have no clue why he or the other daedric princes would agree on that.

Dunno about Molag Bal, but for Hermaeus Mora that seems to be the case. Though I do wonder what kind of knowledge would be so useful or desirable that old Mora would want it that much. And what would the other Princes want?

starkerealm

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

She has no reason to be completely honest with us and I always felt she was more interested in letting someone else get their hands dirty on her behalf, which is something the Daedra do often...

Especially Azura. She has a lot of chosen that she leaves to do her bidding all over Tamriel. There are plenty of Daedric princes that enjoy getting personally involved, but Azura seems to prefer shoving mortals into danger. Can't really argue with her results, though.

LMar

The reason Sheogorath was at Southpoint has been mentioned above. His intermediary was the Mayor and that is why he could meddle in the affairs. He didn't personally go around doing things himself. This is one way the Princes can get around the Compact they made.

FoolishHuman

There was probably a lot more going on there then azura would let on. I mean, she probably hid the moon-and-star ring that could have easily solved the whole thing.

starkerealm

FoolishHuman wrote: »

There was probably a lot more going on there then azura would let on. I mean, she probably hid the moon-and-star ring that could have easily solved the whole thing.

Actually, is there ever an example of the ring actually killing someone?

I remember, playing the original game, wondering if the ring would kill me when I put it on. First time, I actually saved before equipping it.... and then the game crashed, because, Morrowind.

Thing is, in TES3, the ring won't kill NPCs who equip it. It does have an enchantment, but as far as I know, the, "kills anyone except Nerevar," thing is just a legend, the artifact itself doesn't possess that capacity.

FoolishHuman

starkerealm wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

There was probably a lot more going on there then azura would let on. I mean, she probably hid the moon-and-star ring that could have easily solved the whole thing.

Actually, is there ever an example of the ring actually killing someone?

I remember, playing the original game, wondering if the ring would kill me when I put it on. First time, I actually saved before equipping it.... and then the game crashed, because, Morrowind.

Thing is, in TES3, the ring won't kill NPCs who equip it. It does have an enchantment, but as far as I know, the, "kills anyone except Nerevar," thing is just a legend, the artifact itself doesn't possess that capacity.

Maybe azura hid the ring because she knows it's not working and that's why it's not there? This entire thing was very strange and I don't believe azura one word about how important it was for her to "help" vivec. Vivec is a notorious lier too and so is clavicus, so we will probably never find out what everything was really about.