The outcome of the Three-Banner War and the Lore gap with the fourth era.

ChibchanLawyer

What was the actual outcome of the Three-Banner War and why is there no reference of it in the later eras? I mean, I know that there are no references because Oblivion and Skyrim, which take place in the later eras, came out years before this plot was introduced in ESO, and that the campaigns are designed so that whatever Alliance you'd choose with your character would make you their hero and have an edge on the other two.

But if you were loremasters, what do you think ended the Three-Banner War, and how would you explain its lack of knowledge down the eras? Just curious to see what you guys might come up with.

lordhakai

Imperials retake the throne and erase the history of this war.

The_Lex

Good question.

I think the Alliances exhaust their resources and willpower, eventually leading to a cessation of hostilities. Territories originally held by an Alliance are managed by petty warlords and generals. Years layer, one such general, Cuhlecain, eventually proclaims himself Emperor thanks to the military prowess of his top commander, Tiber Septim.

We all know the rest of the story. Tiber demonstrates his prowess with the Thu'um, securing Nordic allegiance. He eventually acquires and uses the Numidium to stomp his way through Tamriel. This effectively ends the 2E Dragon break and this part of history is lost.

One man's opinion.

Elsonso

In the end, a stalemate settles in and none of the three Alliances are able take the Ruby Throne and hold it.

Daggerfall Covenant, facing the reality that the Orcs may not remain with the alliance, begins to seek a truce. The other two alliances, sizing up the cost of the war, and the inevitability of an unbroken stalemate, follow Daggerfall in a cautious truce. The truce results in the armies of each alliance being withdrawn from Cyrodiil, and by the end of the 6th century, the Three Banners War has ended with no victor. (Shortly after that, ZOS announces that they figured out how to fix the Cyrodiil lag.)

Cyrodiil returns to being the homeland of the Imperials, and slowly the remnants of the war are erased from the land. Over the next 260 years following the Three Banners War, a string of unimportant Emperors sit on the throne in Cyrodiil, largely ignored by anyone outside of Cyrodiil.

This ends around 2E850, when Cuhlecain sets his sights on being Emperor and ultimately attacks the Imperial City and assumes the throne in 2E854. It is this event that quickly leads the way for Tiber Septim to become Emperor and in 2E896, the Third Empire is born.

Dustfinger81

The Pact, one of the strongest military alliances in Tamriel's history, is really only held together by common enemies. I can see it quickly dissolving shorlty after cessation of hostilities seems in effect.

Korah_Eaglecry

None of the Alliances can last as they stand currently.

The Daggerfall Covenant is really just held together by Emeric and once hes gone there wont be anything left to keep those Kingdoms united. The Redguards and Bretons have a long history of being at odds with each other only unifying when there is a shared threat. And the Orcs have a very long history of being oppressed by their two allies. The Orcs, Kurog specifically in it for the crown, are really only in this alliance to regain their rightful homeland. Once they feel established and confident they can defend their lands they will definitely secede from the Daggerfall Covenant. At that point the Redguards and Bretons will likely turn their forces against Wrothgar before turning on each other. As they have done in the past.

The Ebonheart Pact is held together by external threats. The Akaviri, Daggerfall Covenant and the Aldmeri Dominion as well as a Nord Clan from Western Skyrim. But these threats cant keep their issues from surfacing forever. The Dunmer can only suffer the Nords demands for so long and will surely begin enslaving the Argonians long before the Alliance comes apart. Which will likely be the catalyst that causes the alliance to come apart in a bloody mess.

The Aldmeri Dominion is probably going to stay together the longest. Personally I think they are the weakest politically right now because they are only recently united. Add in the fact the Bosmer and Khajiit have had political overturn with the Silvenar and Mane and they arent in a good spot right now. But the Altmer are the core of the Alliance and they live the longest. So its not beyond possibility for the AD to outlast the other two alliances just because of lifespans of the major political powerhouse within the alliance. Ayrenn is something like 26 to 27 years old. As an Altmer shes still a child in many respects. But eventually those three will walk away from each other for one reason or another. Bosmer will defer to the Altmer in many things but they still prefer their lives amongst nature and the Altmer have a habit of trying to interfere or overcome nature. Just look at the Altmer cities in Valenwood. Theyre an affront to Y'ffre. And eventually that will become a sticking point for the more religious of the Bosmer. As for the Khajiit. From what I understand many are not fans of the alliance and those who are willing to participate are doing so because the Mane is so supportive of it. But if the next Mane was to denounce the alliance or show no interest in it. That would be it for the Khajiits participation.

AtraisMachina

I bombed them.

Vrienda

My personal head canon is that Tiber Septim erased all evidence of the nations of Tamriel uniting under three banners to try and take the ruby throne because he thought others might try to revive the Covenant, Dominion and Pact and threaten his empire. However as the second dominion was more recent and he himself had to deal with them he wasn't able to cover them up like he did with the original.

Tiber Septim is just one big, fat, propaganda machine who managed to cover up the past and con the people of Tamriel into thinking he was capable of becoming a god.

LMar

Briefly adding:

Agreed that war in Cyro slowly fizzles out as there is no desired outcome

But

I bet the Colovian powers start to slowly grow and eventually help the region forget the war. And indeed it was from Colovia that the petty warlords rise up eventually and Tiber comes in the picture

ArchMikem

The fact that the Three Banners War has absolutely no mention in 4th Era Lore is simple. ESO was developed after Skyrim, and the War was made up to be a part of the ESO story. And just to ease the discrepancy, a LOT of stuff can happen in the 900 years between 2E 5-whatever year this is, and 4E 201. Specifically, historical events can be downplayed, and eventually forgotten. Yeah it'd take a mighty big amount of ignorance to forget something like a Tamriel wide War, however think of the things that happen later. The Oblivion Crisis, The Great War. Much more devastating events.

I'm going to assume that eventually, the outcome of this War will only be the "liberation" of the Empire. The goals of the three banners were to make sure the Imperial City wasn't completely taken by the Daedra, and I guess they were making statements about taking the Ruby Throne for themselves probably cause they assumed the Imperials were utterly gone. However it is mentioned that the entire Legion was recalled back to Cyrodiil to retake the city, and that one Officer guy holding out within the walls calls you a "Provincial Militia" coming to the Empire's aid.

notimetocare

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

Tyrobag

notimetocare wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

The egg, chickens aren't the only species that lays eggs.

Also TES VI should definitely not make any mention of eso.

Elsonso

Tyrobag wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

The egg, chickens aren't the only species that lays eggs.

Also TES VI should definitely not make any mention of eso.

TES 6 will likely include some reference to events of ESO. ESO is canon. Materials written by the ZOS devs (books) will probably end up on the shelves of some dusty room in the next TES game.

Tyrobag

lordrichter wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

The egg, chickens aren't the only species that lays eggs.

Also TES VI should definitely not make any mention of eso.

TES 6 will likely include some reference to events of ESO. ESO is canon. Materials written by the ZOS devs (books) will probably end up on the shelves of some dusty room in the next TES game.

Its also canon that there are little to no records of this period of time. They don't have to make any mention of eso, and I don't think they should. Keep them separate.

Elsonso

Tyrobag wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

The egg, chickens aren't the only species that lays eggs.

Also TES VI should definitely not make any mention of eso.

TES 6 will likely include some reference to events of ESO. ESO is canon. Materials written by the ZOS devs (books) will probably end up on the shelves of some dusty room in the next TES game.

Its also canon that there are little to no records of this period of time. They don't have to make any mention of eso, and I don't think they should. Keep them separate.

I doubt they will. Many ESO fans will want this game to at least be mentioned by the next TES title, and with the wealth of content available from ZOS, there is no reason to not have a mention.

ascottk

Also there's the concept of Dragon Break:

elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Break

"A Dragon Break, sometimes referred to as an un-time, is a temporal phenomenon that involves a splitting of the natural timeline which results in branching parallel realities where the same events occur differently, or not at all. This results in a return to the non-linear timeline of the Dawn Era. At the end of a Dragon Break, the timeline reconnects making all possibilities and outcomes truth, though contradictory to each other. The "Dragon" that is mentioned is in reference towards Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time."

notimetocare

ascottk wrote: »

Also there's the concept of Dragon Break:

elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Break

"A Dragon Break, sometimes referred to as an un-time, is a temporal phenomenon that involves a splitting of the natural timeline which results in branching parallel realities where the same events occur differently, or not at all. This results in a return to the non-linear timeline of the Dawn Era. At the end of a Dragon Break, the timeline reconnects making all possibilities and outcomes truth, though contradictory to each other. The "Dragon" that is mentioned is in reference towards Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time."

Dragon break theory needs to die. ESO is canon

notimetocare

Tyrobag wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

The egg, chickens aren't the only species that lays eggs.

Also TES VI should definitely not make any mention of eso.

TES 6 will likely include some reference to events of ESO. ESO is canon. Materials written by the ZOS devs (books) will probably end up on the shelves of some dusty room in the next TES game.

Its also canon that there are little to no records of this period of time. They don't have to make any mention of eso, and I don't think they should. Keep them separate.

That is exactly why the time period was used. Absence of lore doesn't mean absence should stay that way

zaria

notimetocare wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
ESO was made after all the other games. Cant say that the Alliances would be in the other games lol.
ESO filled a lore void, what content from ESO gets mentioned in a 6th TES game is to be seen

The egg, chickens aren't the only species that lays eggs.

Also TES VI should definitely not make any mention of eso.

TES 6 will likely include some reference to events of ESO. ESO is canon. Materials written by the ZOS devs (books) will probably end up on the shelves of some dusty room in the next TES game.

Its also canon that there are little to no records of this period of time. They don't have to make any mention of eso, and I don't think they should. Keep them separate.

That is exactly why the time period was used. Absence of lore doesn't mean absence should stay that way

Lots of long an messy wars who had no lasting impact, in fact long wars often end with an draw as none of the parts is able to overrun each others.
As other say the alliances are pretty shaky and mostly held up because the threat from the other alliances.

starkerealm

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion is probably going to stay together the longest.

Correct, though not exactly for the reasons you're thinking. The Aldmeri Dominion is the formal name for the Somerset Isle's government. In the strictest sense, it survives into the 4th era, though the alliance they formed with the Bosmer and Khajiit only lasted into the 7th century 2e (as I recall). Ironically, the Second Era Dominion is the one that actually existed in previous lore (the bosmer/altmer alliance got mentioned in one of the pocket guides, I think). My understanding is that the Khajiit split off somewhere down the line, maybe before 2e700, and the Bosmer/Altmer alliance holds on for a bit longer. But, I'm not sure when the alliance fully dissolves.

EDIT: I'm talking about the Dominion existing in the Second Era, not the aggressive empire we see in Skyrim.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

My understanding is that the Khajiit split off somewhere down the line, maybe before 2e700, and the Bosmer/Altmer alliance holds on for a bit longer. But, I'm not sure when the alliance fully dissolves.

*digs* The Second Aldmeri Dominion picked up the Maormer too.

Korah_Eaglecry

starkerealm wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion is probably going to stay together the longest.

Correct, though not exactly for the reasons you're thinking. The Aldmeri Dominion is the formal name for the Somerset Isle's government. In the strictest sense, it survives into the 4th era, though the alliance they formed with the Bosmer and Khajiit only lasted into the 7th century 2e (as I recall). Ironically, the Second Era Dominion is the one that actually existed in previous lore (the bosmer/altmer alliance got mentioned in one of the pocket guides, I think). My understanding is that the Khajiit split off somewhere down the line, maybe before 2e700, and the Bosmer/Altmer alliance holds on for a bit longer. But, I'm not sure when the alliance fully dissolves.

EDIT: I'm talking about the Dominion existing in the Second Era, not the aggressive empire we see in Skyrim.

Actually it doesnt. The AD of 2E 896 was the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. The AD of this time period, 2E 580- 2E 583, is the first. Now thats not to say that there isnt some overlap here as we dont know specifics. But we do know they were two separate entities. Whether the 2nd AD was born out of the ashes of the 1st, it was a completely unrelated government or it was some sort of transition or hand off of power. No one knows.

As for what the government and its agents are known as. That would be the Thalmor. Its apparently just a general word used to describe any agents of the government. Regardless of what said government may be named.

starkerealm

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion is probably going to stay together the longest.

Correct, though not exactly for the reasons you're thinking. The Aldmeri Dominion is the formal name for the Somerset Isle's government. In the strictest sense, it survives into the 4th era, though the alliance they formed with the Bosmer and Khajiit only lasted into the 7th century 2e (as I recall). Ironically, the Second Era Dominion is the one that actually existed in previous lore (the bosmer/altmer alliance got mentioned in one of the pocket guides, I think). My understanding is that the Khajiit split off somewhere down the line, maybe before 2e700, and the Bosmer/Altmer alliance holds on for a bit longer. But, I'm not sure when the alliance fully dissolves.

EDIT: I'm talking about the Dominion existing in the Second Era, not the aggressive empire we see in Skyrim.

Actually it doesnt. The AD of 2E 896 was the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. The AD of this time period, 2E 580- 2E 583, is the first. Now thats not to say that there isnt some overlap here as we dont know specifics. But we do know they were two separate entities. Whether the 2nd AD was born out of the ashes of the 1st, it was a completely unrelated government or it was some sort of transition or hand off of power. No one knows.

As for what the government and its agents are known as. That would be the Thalmor. Its apparently just a general word used to describe any agents of the government. Regardless of what said government may be named.

Yeah, I'm not talking about the Thalmor. Though, dig around in Skyrim, and via the Pocket Guide from Oblivion, and things get interesting with them, quickly.

Korah_Eaglecry

starkerealm wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion is probably going to stay together the longest.

Correct, though not exactly for the reasons you're thinking. The Aldmeri Dominion is the formal name for the Somerset Isle's government. In the strictest sense, it survives into the 4th era, though the alliance they formed with the Bosmer and Khajiit only lasted into the 7th century 2e (as I recall). Ironically, the Second Era Dominion is the one that actually existed in previous lore (the bosmer/altmer alliance got mentioned in one of the pocket guides, I think). My understanding is that the Khajiit split off somewhere down the line, maybe before 2e700, and the Bosmer/Altmer alliance holds on for a bit longer. But, I'm not sure when the alliance fully dissolves.

EDIT: I'm talking about the Dominion existing in the Second Era, not the aggressive empire we see in Skyrim.

Actually it doesnt. The AD of 2E 896 was the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. The AD of this time period, 2E 580- 2E 583, is the first. Now thats not to say that there isnt some overlap here as we dont know specifics. But we do know they were two separate entities. Whether the 2nd AD was born out of the ashes of the 1st, it was a completely unrelated government or it was some sort of transition or hand off of power. No one knows.

As for what the government and its agents are known as. That would be the Thalmor. Its apparently just a general word used to describe any agents of the government. Regardless of what said government may be named.

Yeah, I'm not talking about the Thalmor. Though, dig around in Skyrim, and via the Pocket Guide from Oblivion, and things get interesting with them, quickly.

It seemed as if you were confusing Thalmor with two distinct governments. 1st Aldmeri Dominion is not 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. This confuses a lot of people because the Altmer are not imaginitive and continuously reuse names.

Dustfinger81

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

It seemed as if you were confusing Thalmor with two distinct governments. 1st Aldmeri Dominion is not 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. This confuses a lot of people because the Altmer are not imaginitive and continuously reuse names.

I would assume it is akin to how japan had recycled the term "Samurai" to another fighting force that had nothing to do with the feudal system.

starkerealm

Dustfinger81 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

It seemed as if you were confusing Thalmor with two distinct governments. 1st Aldmeri Dominion is not 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. This confuses a lot of people because the Altmer are not imaginitive and continuously reuse names.

I would assume it is akin to how japan had recycled the term "Samurai" to another fighting force that had nothing to do with the feudal system.

Sorta, kinda, not really. The technical term would be that The Thalmor is an NGO, with close ties to the Dominion government. I'm sitting here trying to think up a good analogy, but this is a legitimately strange scenario. In ESO, the Thalmor have been granted certain administrative authorities by the Dominion government. Probably as a concession to secure their political support. This is how some of the interactions in Woodhearth make sense, by the way: The Eyes have inquisitorial authority over the Dominion, but the Thalmor aren't actually answerable to them.

Documentation from Skyrim suggest that it's existed in one form for quite some time. And while it's not clear that there's a real continuity of organization, the name, and the group, have been a factor in Altmer politics for quite some time.

This isn't true when you're looking at Skyrim. After the Oblivion Crisis, the Thalmor moved and consolidated their hold over the Dominion government. They were already working to consolidate power before the Crisis, which is why you'll hear barks about problems in the Sommerset Isles when you're walking around the Imperial City in Oblivion. But, once the Crisis hit, they were in a position to assume authority. So, what you see in Skyrim are the ruling party of the Dominion government.

starkerealm

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Actually it doesnt. The AD of 2E 896 was the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion. The AD of this time period, 2E 580- 2E 583, is the first. Now thats not to say that there isnt some overlap here as we dont know specifics. But we do know they were two separate entities. Whether the 2nd AD was born out of the ashes of the 1st, it was a completely unrelated government or it was some sort of transition or hand off of power. No one knows.

My recollection is that the transition happened when the Bosmer left. It's detailed in the Pocket Guide, I think. But, I'll admit, I've been working all night, so I might be remembering that incorrectly.

Dustfinger81

Hmm. It may be possible that they are the same organization, having evolved with the times and political climate.

HugsAlotOfBosmer

I guess this is how things will turn out, more or less (I can be 100% wrong on this of course, keep that in mind)
Soon after the daedra is pushed out of cryodiil, the imperial would slowly gain control over the land again, push the diffrent faction more out.
And once the skald king dies, the pact would see follow, taking all the races out of the war. Effectly giving all land they had to the imperials
Same would go with the covenant more or less, When their high king die. The Covenant would not manage to stay up for long as they are not a very stable faction either, the fact he manage to unite high rock is a mircale almost. Though I do believe that the covenant would manage to fight on a bit longer without the high king.
As for the Dominion, they would likley stay together until fully pushed out of cryodiill, and then once a peace treaty has been signed. The Dominion would peacefully break apart, as there is no longer need for it with the deadra threat gone and so with the war.
Then there would be some time of peace, Until the time of Talos. Where he manages to conquer all of tamriel.

mb10

I dont think anybody wins the war but the Aldmeri Dominion reforms which of course suggests it broke up. They come close in the Great War and now in present day have a strong foot on the empire because of the White Gold Concordant. What happens after Skyrim is even more interesting.
However, nothing is ever mentioned about the other two alliances.

starkerealm

mb10 wrote: »

I dont think anybody wins the war but the Aldmeri Dominion reforms which of course suggests it broke up. They come close in the Great War and now in present day have a strong foot on the empire because of the White Gold Concordant. What happens after Skyrim is even more interesting.
However, nothing is ever mentioned about the other two alliances.

The rough story with the Dominion is that the Khajiit break off first, possibly within a few decades of ESO's timeframe. Then the Bosmer hold on for at least a couple centuries before splitting off. I want to say it's into the 2e700s, but not 100% certain.

When the Bosmer break off, the Dominion redefines itself as the Second Aldmeri Dominion. That remains active, more or less, throughout the events of the single player games. There might actually be a gap here, also. Either way, by the Third Era, it's part of The Empire again.

The schism into an independent force comes from the aftermath of the Oblivion crisis. It's happening as you play Oblivion, but because you're in Cyrodiil, you're not privy to what's happening out there. If you want the full timeline for the fourth era, you can check out The Rising Threat in Skryim. It's a four volume set.