I seriously had to LOL that the first build you choose to highlight is a Tremorscale/Viper build.
(Working as intended)
Oh no, I'm not mad at you Vox. It's a good build guide with a lot of options. I just think it's funny that ZOS would choose to highlight a Tremorscale/Viper build, and first of all things! Sure it could be executed more easily on a Sorc or maybe a NB. No surprise they chose Warden as the first class to highlight. But seriously, with how much proc set builds are bemoaned, it's a very trolly choice for ZOS to lead with that.
Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Agreed, proc sets need a heavy nerf. But do you actually have any idea what you're talking about? What does RNG-based DPS even mean in this context? Tremor has a 50% proc chance so chances are it's going to proc very frequently when using ransack a couple of times and viper is a 100% chance every 4 seconds. I just don't understand what you mean by RNG-based dps. Plus the fact that they don't crit would actually make them less RNG wouldn't it?
Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Agreed, proc sets need a heavy nerf. But do you actually have any idea what you're talking about? What does RNG-based DPS even mean in this context? Tremor has a 50% proc chance so chances are it's going to proc very frequently when using ransack a couple of times and viper is a 100% chance every 4 seconds. I just don't understand what you mean by RNG-based dps. Plus the fact that they don't crit would actually make them less RNG wouldn't it?
Darkmage1337 wrote: »Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Agreed, proc sets need a heavy nerf. But do you actually have any idea what you're talking about? What does RNG-based DPS even mean in this context? Tremor has a 50% proc chance so chances are it's going to proc very frequently when using ransack a couple of times and viper is a 100% chance every 4 seconds. I just don't understand what you mean by RNG-based dps. Plus the fact that they don't crit would actually make them less RNG wouldn't it?
It means that instead of relying on real, actual, usable abilities that you slot on your ability bar and click to use (e.g. class and weapon abilities), players (especially PvPers) are forced to rely on damage coming from these proc sets, instead of an actual real ability. Which takes skill in using and timing, especially with the game-mechanic of being able to only use one ability per second, proc-chances will always have a distinct advantage over other gameplay actions and means.
Relying on 50% chance for that, 100% chance for this, 10% here, etc, is skill-less and fake damage. Get gud.
ZOS shouldn't be promoting this kind of play style. It sickens me that the current meta of PvP is based entirely on proc'ing Viper and Tremorscale builds. It doesn't matter that they don't crit. They proc-rates should be nerfed to half, or more, of what they are now. I'm tired of seeing Viper's poison sting and Tremorscale in death recaps. I've seen multiple players in battlegrounds literally just spamming taunt (Ransack) to use Tremorscale as their only form of damage and playstyle.
It's aggravating when you see this constantly as the only form of play and no diversity in builds. Fake damage.
Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Agreed, proc sets need a heavy nerf. But do you actually have any idea what you're talking about? What does RNG-based DPS even mean in this context? Tremor has a 50% proc chance so chances are it's going to proc very frequently when using ransack a couple of times and viper is a 100% chance every 4 seconds. I just don't understand what you mean by RNG-based dps. Plus the fact that they don't crit would actually make them less RNG wouldn't it?
Procsets are really anoying in no-CP. In CP Campaigns procsets aren´t that big of an issue IMO.
The awkward moment when CP-Campaigns feels more balanced than no-CP after Morrowind xD
Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Agreed, proc sets need a heavy nerf. But do you actually have any idea what you're talking about? What does RNG-based DPS even mean in this context? Tremor has a 50% proc chance so chances are it's going to proc very frequently when using ransack a couple of times and viper is a 100% chance every 4 seconds. I just don't understand what you mean by RNG-based dps. Plus the fact that they don't crit would actually make them less RNG wouldn't it?
Procsets are really anoying in no-CP. In CP Campaigns procsets aren´t that big of an issue IMO.
The awkward moment when CP-Campaigns feels more balanced than no-CP after Morrowind xD
Fair enough. I don't play non-cp and haven't had much luck getting into battlegrounds so I was unaware that proc sets are that big of a problem in non-cp. I made this build with CP in mind and after testing in cp environment I found that it is effective, but not as strong as other setups. Thanks for actually explaining why they are a problem in non cp and not just screaming about it
Darkmage1337 wrote: »TLDR, after seeing Tremorscale and Viper -- the only sets players use in Battlegrounds... AKA, no-skill RNG-based DPS.
Nerf proc sets. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
#MakeESOPvPGreatAgain
Agreed, proc sets need a heavy nerf. But do you actually have any idea what you're talking about? What does RNG-based DPS even mean in this context? Tremor has a 50% proc chance so chances are it's going to proc very frequently when using ransack a couple of times and viper is a 100% chance every 4 seconds. I just don't understand what you mean by RNG-based dps. Plus the fact that they don't crit would actually make them less RNG wouldn't it?
Procsets are really anoying in no-CP. In CP Campaigns procsets aren´t that big of an issue IMO.
The awkward moment when CP-Campaigns feels more balanced than no-CP after Morrowind xD
Fair enough. I don't play non-cp and haven't had much luck getting into battlegrounds so I was unaware that proc sets are that big of a problem in non-cp. I made this build with CP in mind and after testing in cp environment I found that it is effective, but not as strong as other setups. Thanks for actually explaining why they are a problem in non cp and not just screaming about it
You really dont have to defend your build btw. Zenimax choose it as the best. Its just attracting attention because they picked it as the best, highlighting features players have been saying are too good to be in game.. Zenimax is saying, instead.. "This is how we want you to play."
Anne_Firehawk wrote: »Nice Tumor :^) ... First build you guys chose is a procctard.
Like @Voxicity i find it odd but i also find it amusing how often the RNG is used as a perjorative when Viper and other high yield proc sets are in play.
let see... what was the best quote?
@Darkmage1337 said "Relying on 50% chance for that, 100% chance for this, 10% here, etc, is skill-less and fake damage."
So lets see...
Relying on 50%: You mean a chance akin to where in-game critical chances tend to get near? Almost everything can crit - including heals - except proc sets. Tremorscale has a 50% proc chance only if you taunt and you get base 7k ish before half that gets spirited away if in pvp. i have seen plenty of crits deal an extra 7k+ damage with no cooldowns. (Depends on enemies, cp, etc)
Replying on 100% - like hey almost every click-hit ability in the game "relies on 100%" so hoiw is it badn RNg for Viper to do that with a cooldown? many 100% abilities are not limited to every 4s, only at melee range etc like Viper is.
of course, NMG has a defense debuff that only happens on a crit - is that a random proc set bad evil no skill or not? is the extra damage done by anyone attacking that target after the crit proc also "fake damage"?
keeps coming back to the one great evil/sin of these sets - they list their damage separate on the recaps, while others (the good sets) hide the extra damage they cause inside the 100% "skill" abilities recaps.
"Relying on 100%" will be a classic, i am sure.
Like @Voxicity i find it odd but i also find it amusing how often the RNG is used as a perjorative when Viper and other high yield proc sets are in play.
let see... what was the best quote?
@Darkmage1337 said "Relying on 50% chance for that, 100% chance for this, 10% here, etc, is skill-less and fake damage."
So lets see...
Relying on 50%: You mean a chance akin to where in-game critical chances tend to get near? Almost everything can crit - including heals - except proc sets. Tremorscale has a 50% proc chance only if you taunt and you get base 7k ish before half that gets spirited away if in pvp. i have seen plenty of crits deal an extra 7k+ damage with no cooldowns. (Depends on enemies, cp, etc)
Replying on 100% - like hey almost every click-hit ability in the game "relies on 100%" so hoiw is it badn RNg for Viper to do that with a cooldown? many 100% abilities are not limited to every 4s, only at melee range etc like Viper is.
of course, NMG has a defense debuff that only happens on a crit - is that a random proc set bad evil no skill or not? is the extra damage done by anyone attacking that target after the crit proc also "fake damage"?
keeps coming back to the one great evil/sin of these sets - they list their damage separate on the recaps, while others (the good sets) hide the extra damage they cause inside the 100% "skill" abilities recaps.
"Relying on 100%" will be a classic, i am sure.
Yep that's absolutely true. It's like if I was running Clever Alchemist + Heem Jas 25% major beserk and I hit someone for a 13k incap, they would scream "NIGHTBLADES OP!!" since all they see in their recap is a really high hitting incap, not a tremorscale or viper etc.
Like @Voxicity i find it odd but i also find it amusing how often the RNG is used as a perjorative when Viper and other high yield proc sets are in play.
let see... what was the best quote?
@Darkmage1337 said "Relying on 50% chance for that, 100% chance for this, 10% here, etc, is skill-less and fake damage."
So lets see...
Relying on 50%: You mean a chance akin to where in-game critical chances tend to get near? Almost everything can crit - including heals - except proc sets. Tremorscale has a 50% proc chance only if you taunt and you get base 7k ish before half that gets spirited away if in pvp. i have seen plenty of crits deal an extra 7k+ damage with no cooldowns. (Depends on enemies, cp, etc)
Replying on 100% - like hey almost every click-hit ability in the game "relies on 100%" so hoiw is it badn RNg for Viper to do that with a cooldown? many 100% abilities are not limited to every 4s, only at melee range etc like Viper is.
of course, NMG has a defense debuff that only happens on a crit - is that a random proc set bad evil no skill or not? is the extra damage done by anyone attacking that target after the crit proc also "fake damage"?
keeps coming back to the one great evil/sin of these sets - they list their damage separate on the recaps, while others (the good sets) hide the extra damage they cause inside the 100% "skill" abilities recaps.
"Relying on 100%" will be a classic, i am sure.
Yep that's absolutely true. It's like if I was running Clever Alchemist + Heem Jas 25% major beserk and I hit someone for a 13k incap, they would scream "NIGHTBLADES OP!!" since all they see in their recap is a really high hitting incap, not a tremorscale or viper etc.
So why is nobody using that if it's the same as using proc sets?
Like @Voxicity i find it odd but i also find it amusing how often the RNG is used as a perjorative when Viper and other high yield proc sets are in play.
let see... what was the best quote?
@Darkmage1337 said "Relying on 50% chance for that, 100% chance for this, 10% here, etc, is skill-less and fake damage."
So lets see...
Relying on 50%: You mean a chance akin to where in-game critical chances tend to get near? Almost everything can crit - including heals - except proc sets. Tremorscale has a 50% proc chance only if you taunt and you get base 7k ish before half that gets spirited away if in pvp. i have seen plenty of crits deal an extra 7k+ damage with no cooldowns. (Depends on enemies, cp, etc)
Replying on 100% - like hey almost every click-hit ability in the game "relies on 100%" so hoiw is it badn RNg for Viper to do that with a cooldown? many 100% abilities are not limited to every 4s, only at melee range etc like Viper is.
of course, NMG has a defense debuff that only happens on a crit - is that a random proc set bad evil no skill or not? is the extra damage done by anyone attacking that target after the crit proc also "fake damage"?
keeps coming back to the one great evil/sin of these sets - they list their damage separate on the recaps, while others (the good sets) hide the extra damage they cause inside the 100% "skill" abilities recaps.
"Relying on 100%" will be a classic, i am sure.
Yep that's absolutely true. It's like if I was running Clever Alchemist + Heem Jas 25% major beserk and I hit someone for a 13k incap, they would scream "NIGHTBLADES OP!!" since all they see in their recap is a really high hitting incap, not a tremorscale or viper etc.
So why is nobody using that if it's the same as using proc sets?
It's not the same as using proc sets and I never implied it was.
The reason not many people use Heem Jas (although I do, because I like to run off-meta setups every so often) is because the 3 second timer is short and requires you to get to your next target and get an incap or surprise attack off on them which is pretty hard to pull off. It's quite effective if you can play fast, but since no one has made a build video on it with any kind of attention, no one uses it or even considers it. Just like the magsorc red mountain meta that's just come out. The set has been in the game for probably over a year but was still a pretty niche setup until Blobs recently made a video about it and now prices for red mountain are going up because people are starting to run it (including myself) - check tamriel trade centre or MM the prices and you'll see
Anyway I used the clever alch + heem jas as an example because if you pull it off right you can achieve some insanely high incap hits, of which no one would even think about blaming the sets and would rather just scream about how OP nightblades are as a class, because there is nothing on their death recap saying ''Heem Jas'' or ''Clever alchemist made this incap hit really hard'' etc.
Humans love to complain and blame, the fact that proc sets come up on your death recap or combat log just makes them an easy scapegoat whereas actual decent sets (like clever alchemist) are safely out of sight so don't get a mention when it comes to OP sets.
@br0steen
lol @Voxicity are you really comparing clever alchemist to proc sets? Please. Clever alchemist takes skill to pull of due to the fact that you only have burst for 15 seconds and as such you have to effectively time your burst during that interval. Proc sets just keep on proccing of their minuscule cooldown without the user having to time anything whatsoever. If anyone sits here and tries to defend proc sets I am just going to give you a heads up the PvP community(those who are actually good at it) are going to write you off as a lower tiered player. No hard feelings just facts.
lol @Voxicity are you really comparing clever alchemist to proc sets? Please. Clever alchemist takes skill to pull of due to the fact that you only have burst for 15 seconds and as such you have to effectively time your burst during that interval. Proc sets just keep on proccing of their minuscule cooldown without the user having to time anything whatsoever. If anyone sits here and tries to defend proc sets I am just going to give you a heads up the PvP community(those who are actually good at it) are going to write you off as a lower tiered player. No hard feelings just facts.
Darkmage1337 wrote: »
@Voxicity - You clearly continue to miss the main idea and instead argue towards sub-points and footnotes. The aforementioned proc sets are far stronger and more efficient than any other 2/2, 3/3 and 5/5 sets out there. Your talk of "hidden damage bonuses" and "set bonus damage within ability recaps" does not even come close to doing the amount of extra damage that proc sets do on their own; and, damage from said proc sets are far more consistent compared to any other build. That's why EVERYONE uses them. They're too strong, and they don't take skill. One of two things needs to happen: buff other ignored and unused sets to be as good or stronger than proc sets; or, nerf proc sets altogether.
ZOS should increase the cooldown times of proc sets by double, at the very least. Or, lower their damage amounts by half.
This may put their damage output equal to that of other sets, especially bursty-builds like with the case of Clever Alchemist, which I used to use along with 2/2 Molag Kena and 3/3 willpower jewelry with spell damage enchants. That build's damage output still does not compare to proc-set spamming plebs. Not even close, lol.
(I am aware they are 'OP' or 'imbalanced' by the way, just in case you thought I was defending them. They are poorly designed and indeed require less skill. What I am defending is the right to use them. And I also don't agree with the fact that everyone screams and cries about proc sets just because they saw it in their death recap whereas other sets are hidden )
(I am aware they are 'OP' or 'imbalanced' by the way, just in case you thought I was defending them. They are poorly designed and indeed require less skill. What I am defending is the right to use them. And I also don't agree with the fact that everyone screams and cries about proc sets just because they saw it in their death recap whereas other sets are hidden )
@Voxicity
Sorry, I thought you were saying proc sets are no different than other sets that will boost damage output at all.
I agree, people will always complain more about what they see most often in their death recaps. However as you said they require less skill which for once, complaints on the forums about what they see on their death recap is somewhat justified with that reasoning. (I still remember when steel tornado was "broken" lol)
I also agree that everyone has the right to use them. In fact, I'm kind of glad they are in the game, although its clear the community isn't and are not being listened by to by zos, which was my original point. It's nice to know who lacks confidence in their ability to succeed through their skill, and feels it necessary to use proc sets. On xbox they tend to be those who enjoy xv1ing and tbagging to show their dominance.