Dodgeroll = just roll

Devilhand

What it says XD

WhiteMage

Why are there more undodgable attacks lately? Without validating the truth of that question, it would be be because you cannot make one mechanic defend against all things with no counter, and even more so allow some people to use it more than others without appropriate trade-offs. There are quite a lot of imbalances in this game and you can't just go fixing each one one at a time, but...

Yada yada, I could rant about this but presently I won't without an invitation.

Metemsycosis

And you can still have sick burst after dodge rolling ten times. Or blocking for thirty seconds etc

leepalmer95

Because dodge usually negates all dmg done to you.

The more people attacking the more mitigation is actually does.

With shields the more people attacking the less effective they are.

tist

Because of that one guy who has no chance of winning a fight burns all his stamina to dodge roll 10 times and waste your time and resources.

SirAndy

Please tell me English isn't your first language ...

Nutshotz

I've yet to see a stam player dodge an infinite amount of times and be out of stam. Most of the time they do it to stack the Dodge roll mechanic that zos thought was the evasion from shuffle and blur.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I can dodge 8 times in a row! Boom! Lol.

Lexxypwns

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Because dodge usually negates all dmg done to you.

The more people attacking the more mitigation is actually does.

With shields the more people attacking the less effective they are.

People don't seem to understand this. Dodge roll has the absolute best scaling of all defensive mechanics in the game. Assuming all incoming attacks are dodgeable, this means that for outnumbered situations dodge-roll becomes the be all end all of defensive mechanics, mitigating 100% of incoming damage from unlimited sources. If there weren't undodgeable attacks then there would be no reason to build for any other type of defensive mechanic except dodge-roll.

Because of this scaling, it is only logical that some counter to dodge roll needed to be added. Personally, I think beams and aoes make the most sense to be undodgeable, since its attached to you and whatnot.

Healing is an amazing defensive mechanic, probably the strongest in the game because of the presence of undodgeable attacks. However, the current meta allows for enough coordinated spike damage to mitigate all but the most focused healing in small scale situation and there will always be a point where the incoming damage gets to be too great to outheal. Healing is countered by spike damage and healing debuffs, this keeps it balanced.

Blocking allows you incredible mitigations, however it scales poorly in the 1-4 targets range until you cap out on the incoming attacks draining resources. Once you're receiving more than 1 attack per 1/2 second blockings defensive mechanic starts to scale upward and become more efficient. Blocking is countered by numerous CCs, no stam regen, the reduction in mobility, DoTs and the inability to block cast specific skills. This keeps it balanced

Damage shields are the absolute worst scaling defensive mechanic available. While stacking shield or even just being diligent about keeping dampen/harness up can work as a great counter in 1v1 or even 1v2 situations, any more incoming damage than that becomes far too great for a shield stack to keep up with. Damage shields have terrible scaling, are countered by focused damage and timing burst during CCs, this keeps them balanced.

Hopefully this puts to bed the complaints about dodge roll...

t3hdubzy

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Because dodge usually negates all dmg done to you.

The more people attacking the more mitigation is actually does.

With shields the more people attacking the less effective they are.

People don't seem to understand this. Dodge roll has the absolute best scaling of all defensive mechanics in the game. Assuming all incoming attacks are dodgeable, this means that for outnumbered situations dodge-roll becomes the be all end all of defensive mechanics, mitigating 100% of incoming damage from unlimited sources. If there weren't undodgeable attacks then there would be no reason to build for any other type of defensive mechanic except dodge-roll.

Because of this scaling, it is only logical that some counter to dodge roll needed to be added. Personally, I think beams and aoes make the most sense to be undodgeable, since its attached to you and whatnot.

Healing is an amazing defensive mechanic, probably the strongest in the game because of the presence of undodgeable attacks. However, the current meta allows for enough coordinated spike damage to mitigate all but the most focused healing in small scale situation and there will always be a point where the incoming damage gets to be too great to outheal. Healing is countered by spike damage and healing debuffs, this keeps it balanced.

Blocking allows you incredible mitigations, however it scales poorly in the 1-4 targets range until you cap out on the incoming attacks draining resources. Once you're receiving more than 1 attack per 1/2 second blockings defensive mechanic starts to scale upward and become more efficient. Blocking is countered by numerous CCs, no stam regen, the reduction in mobility, DoTs and the inability to block cast specific skills. This keeps it balanced

Damage shields are the absolute worst scaling defensive mechanic available. While stacking shield or even just being diligent about keeping dampen/harness up can work as a great counter in 1v1 or even 1v2 situations, any more incoming damage than that becomes far too great for a shield stack to keep up with. Damage shields have terrible scaling, are countered by focused damage and timing burst during CCs, this keeps them balanced.

Hopefully this puts to bed the complaints about dodge roll...

You forget that you cant crit damage shields which make them harder to burst against, and if someone uses damage shields while blocking or reflecting even better.

Also poisons that drain resources as well, which further counter a lot of the above but require you to stay alive long enough for them to work, well more than occassionally they work after I die....

thankyourat

t3hdubzy wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Because dodge usually negates all dmg done to you.

The more people attacking the more mitigation is actually does.

With shields the more people attacking the less effective they are.

People don't seem to understand this. Dodge roll has the absolute best scaling of all defensive mechanics in the game. Assuming all incoming attacks are dodgeable, this means that for outnumbered situations dodge-roll becomes the be all end all of defensive mechanics, mitigating 100% of incoming damage from unlimited sources. If there weren't undodgeable attacks then there would be no reason to build for any other type of defensive mechanic except dodge-roll.

Because of this scaling, it is only logical that some counter to dodge roll needed to be added. Personally, I think beams and aoes make the most sense to be undodgeable, since its attached to you and whatnot.

Healing is an amazing defensive mechanic, probably the strongest in the game because of the presence of undodgeable attacks. However, the current meta allows for enough coordinated spike damage to mitigate all but the most focused healing in small scale situation and there will always be a point where the incoming damage gets to be too great to outheal. Healing is countered by spike damage and healing debuffs, this keeps it balanced.

Blocking allows you incredible mitigations, however it scales poorly in the 1-4 targets range until you cap out on the incoming attacks draining resources. Once you're receiving more than 1 attack per 1/2 second blockings defensive mechanic starts to scale upward and become more efficient. Blocking is countered by numerous CCs, no stam regen, the reduction in mobility, DoTs and the inability to block cast specific skills. This keeps it balanced

Damage shields are the absolute worst scaling defensive mechanic available. While stacking shield or even just being diligent about keeping dampen/harness up can work as a great counter in 1v1 or even 1v2 situations, any more incoming damage than that becomes far too great for a shield stack to keep up with. Damage shields have terrible scaling, are countered by focused damage and timing burst during CCs, this keeps them balanced.

Hopefully this puts to bed the complaints about dodge roll...

You forget that you cant crit damage shields which make them harder to burst against, and if someone uses damage shields while blocking or reflecting even better.

Also poisons that drain resources as well, which further counter a lot of the above but require you to stay alive long enough for them to work, well more than occassionally they work after I die....

Yes but even though damage shields can't be crit It's still doesn't scale well. if multiple people attack a player who is using damage shields the shield won't be able to survive the burst, and will be taking down almost instantly.

Lexxypwns

thankyourat wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Because dodge usually negates all dmg done to you.

The more people attacking the more mitigation is actually does.

With shields the more people attacking the less effective they are.

People don't seem to understand this. Dodge roll has the absolute best scaling of all defensive mechanics in the game. Assuming all incoming attacks are dodgeable, this means that for outnumbered situations dodge-roll becomes the be all end all of defensive mechanics, mitigating 100% of incoming damage from unlimited sources. If there weren't undodgeable attacks then there would be no reason to build for any other type of defensive mechanic except dodge-roll.

Because of this scaling, it is only logical that some counter to dodge roll needed to be added. Personally, I think beams and aoes make the most sense to be undodgeable, since its attached to you and whatnot.

Healing is an amazing defensive mechanic, probably the strongest in the game because of the presence of undodgeable attacks. However, the current meta allows for enough coordinated spike damage to mitigate all but the most focused healing in small scale situation and there will always be a point where the incoming damage gets to be too great to outheal. Healing is countered by spike damage and healing debuffs, this keeps it balanced.

Blocking allows you incredible mitigations, however it scales poorly in the 1-4 targets range until you cap out on the incoming attacks draining resources. Once you're receiving more than 1 attack per 1/2 second blockings defensive mechanic starts to scale upward and become more efficient. Blocking is countered by numerous CCs, no stam regen, the reduction in mobility, DoTs and the inability to block cast specific skills. This keeps it balanced

Damage shields are the absolute worst scaling defensive mechanic available. While stacking shield or even just being diligent about keeping dampen/harness up can work as a great counter in 1v1 or even 1v2 situations, any more incoming damage than that becomes far too great for a shield stack to keep up with. Damage shields have terrible scaling, are countered by focused damage and timing burst during CCs, this keeps them balanced.

Hopefully this puts to bed the complaints about dodge roll...

You forget that you cant crit damage shields which make them harder to burst against, and if someone uses damage shields while blocking or reflecting even better.

Also poisons that drain resources as well, which further counter a lot of the above but require you to stay alive long enough for them to work, well more than occassionally they work after I die....

Yes but even though damage shields can't be crit It's still doesn't scale well. if multiple people attack a player who is using damage shields the shield won't be able to survive the burst, and will be taking down almost instantly.

Precisely this.

Let's imagine a hypothetical 15k damage shield, granted by 1 button press. Taken alone, in a 1v1, this is incredibly strong, you effectively need to do 15k damage to negate 1 press of a button. Let's say you do 9k damage with surprise attack. In this example, the shield is strong.

However, let's look at a 1v3 situation with the same shield: In this case, the 3 incoming attacks of 9k will vastly overpower the strength of the shield. 1 GCD from 3 attackers will clear the shield. 1 hit is non-crit, the second drops the shield and the overflow damage CAN crit, the third hits the unprotected health pool fully.

This is an example of why damage shields are a very limited defense and why sorcs can give people so much trouble in duels. While damage shields can be nigh-unbreakable 1v1, requiring you to time burst when they're down, they're virtually useless against multiple opponents. If the opponents are capable the absolute best you can hope for is to keep shield stacking as long as possible and prolong the inevitable.

However, with dodge roll you can completely mitigate all incoming, dodgeable damage. This means that even with 20 incoming sources of dodgeable damage you'll have 100% mitigation. This is without mentioning armor sets, passives, mobility, or any of the other benefits dodge roll gives

Hopefully this can ease some of the OPs concerns with dodge roll as a viable defensive mechanic.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Dodge roll is for sure an amazing defensive mechanic. But let's not kid ourselves and say shields arent. Watch even a mediocre sorc go into a group of people with a 25k to 30k shield and come out alive and unscathed. There is no increase to casting shields and they can be stacked. Every dodge roll drains your resources. It's bad enough a Stam user needs to use his main damage resource also for defense, imagine light armor users dodge rolling with a quarter of the resources. At least they only need Stam for dodge roll, block, and break free. All their remaining skills are from a completely different resource. You act like once the shields have been burst down the person can't simply just put them back up.

I'm not saying buff dodge roll. I'm not saying nerf shields. I'm being realistic. Theory crafting is fun and all but in actual gameplay shields are NOT weak by any standards. It's honestly the main reason people have cried about dodge roll AND shields since launch. They even nerfed sorc shields and it's still strong.

I'm personally fine with AoE hitting through dodge roll. Same with channeled abilities. I wasn't to happy when they changed the consecutive cost of roll dodging but I know they will never change it back. Honestly I don't even think it was a huge problem. It was only a few people making very specific builds that were doing it and they weren't that powerful. People just got annoyed because a group of people would chase a rolly Polly who has retreating maneuver on and no one could kill him. As soon as those people went on the offensive they died though.

thankyourat

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Dodge roll is for sure an amazing defensive mechanic. But let's not kid ourselves and say shields arent. Watch even a mediocre sorc go into a group of people with a 25k to 30k shield and come out alive and unscathed. There is no increase to casting shields and they can be stacked. Every dodge roll drains your resources. It's bad enough a Stam user needs to use his main damage resource also for defense, imagine light armor users dodge rolling with a quarter of the resources. At least they only need Stam for dodge roll, block, and break free. All their remaining skills are from a completely different resource. You act like once the shields have been burst down the person can't simply just put them back up.

I'm not saying buff dodge roll. I'm not saying nerf shields. I'm being realistic. Theory crafting is fun and all but in actual gameplay shields are NOT weak by any standards. It's honestly the main reason people have cried about dodge roll AND shields since launch. They even nerfed sorc shields and it's still strong.

I'm personally fine with AoE hitting through dodge roll. Same with channeled abilities. I wasn't to happy when they changed the consecutive cost of roll dodging but I know they will never change it back. Honestly I don't even think it was a huge problem. It was only a few people making very specific builds that were doing it and they weren't that powerful. People just got annoyed because a group of people would chase a rolly Polly who has retreating maneuver on and no one could kill him. As soon as those people went on the offensive they died though.

It's not like stamina builds can't use their magicka pool for increased survivability same way a magicka build can use stamina for a occasional dodge roll. As for a sorc if a light armor sorc is tanking a group that group just had low dps or they aren't utilizing CCs. I don't think anyone is saying shields are bad they just scale poorly the more people you are fighting. Like in 1vX gameplay shields aren't all that great, but in a 1v1 they are pretty good

Biro123

As a mediocre sorc, I can testify that I can shield up, go in to the middle of a group and survive.. But its a combination of things that makes that happen, not just shields..

1. They are surprised by the move and half of them are looking elsewhere anyway
2. Its combined with eots. Most players react by getting out of the area rather than attacking me
3. There's a LOT of streaking involved
4. Shields can let you survive whats left - for a bit
5. when EOTS comes down, if you're not out of there you're dead
6. half the tie you die anyway.

On the flip side, I can be focussed by 2 competent players and at best do nothing other than spam shields just to stay alive - the first mistake I make or next cc that comes = death in the time it takes to breakfree. with 3 it doesn't need the CC.
And when this happens, unlike dodge, there is no movement as part of the defense mechanism - and with tremorscale... in terms of getting back to safety, I'm effectively rooted - so have no real option other than staying there until death.. At least with the dodge mechanic, the movement that comes with it can get you back to allies, around corners etc...
Streak isn't an option either simply because you cannot afford losing one single gcd without refreshing a shield.

SodanTok

Lets not focus too much on how dodge rolling is good to run away from zergs or at least waste their resources/time. That is not how you win fights.

DannyLV702

I feel like people have forgotten what real perma rolling was like...

Strider_Roshin

Dodge rolling has become very bad in this game, as has stamina in general. My suggestion to stamina users: play something else until ZOS addresses the gross imbalances.

Devilhand

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Because dodge usually negates all dmg done to you.

The more people attacking the more mitigation is actually does.

With shields the more people attacking the less effective they are.

People don't seem to understand this. Dodge roll has the absolute best scaling of all defensive mechanics in the game. Assuming all incoming attacks are dodgeable, this means that for outnumbered situations dodge-roll becomes the be all end all of defensive mechanics, mitigating 100% of incoming damage from unlimited sources. If there weren't undodgeable attacks then there would be no reason to build for any other type of defensive mechanic except dodge-roll.

Because of this scaling, it is only logical that some counter to dodge roll needed to be added. Personally, I think beams and aoes make the most sense to be undodgeable, since its attached to you and whatnot.

Healing is an amazing defensive mechanic, probably the strongest in the game because of the presence of undodgeable attacks. However, the current meta allows for enough coordinated spike damage to mitigate all but the most focused healing in small scale situation and there will always be a point where the incoming damage gets to be too great to outheal. Healing is countered by spike damage and healing debuffs, this keeps it balanced.

Blocking allows you incredible mitigations, however it scales poorly in the 1-4 targets range until you cap out on the incoming attacks draining resources. Once you're receiving more than 1 attack per 1/2 second blockings defensive mechanic starts to scale upward and become more efficient. Blocking is countered by numerous CCs, no stam regen, the reduction in mobility, DoTs and the inability to block cast specific skills. This keeps it balanced

Damage shields are the absolute worst scaling defensive mechanic available. While stacking shield or even just being diligent about keeping dampen/harness up can work as a great counter in 1v1 or even 1v2 situations, any more incoming damage than that becomes far too great for a shield stack to keep up with. Damage shields have terrible scaling, are countered by focused damage and timing burst during CCs, this keeps them balanced.

Hopefully this puts to bed the complaints about dodge roll...

You forget that you cant crit damage shields which make them harder to burst against, and if someone uses damage shields while blocking or reflecting even better.

Also poisons that drain resources as well, which further counter a lot of the above but require you to stay alive long enough for them to work, well more than occassionally they work after I die....

Yes but even though damage shields can't be crit It's still doesn't scale well. if multiple people attack a player who is using damage shields the shield won't be able to survive the burst, and will be taking down almost instantly.

Precisely this.

Let's imagine a hypothetical 15k damage shield, granted by 1 button press. Taken alone, in a 1v1, this is incredibly strong, you effectively need to do 15k damage to negate 1 press of a button. Let's say you do 9k damage with surprise attack. In this example, the shield is strong.

However, let's look at a 1v3 situation with the same shield: In this case, the 3 incoming attacks of 9k will vastly overpower the strength of the shield. 1 GCD from 3 attackers will clear the shield. 1 hit is non-crit, the second drops the shield and the overflow damage CAN crit, the third hits the unprotected health pool fully.

This is an example of why damage shields are a very limited defense and why sorcs can give people so much trouble in duels. While damage shields can be nigh-unbreakable 1v1, requiring you to time burst when they're down, they're virtually useless against multiple opponents. If the opponents are capable the absolute best you can hope for is to keep shield stacking as long as possible and prolong the inevitable.

However, with dodge roll you can completely mitigate all incoming, dodgeable damage. This means that even with 20 incoming sources of dodgeable damage you'll have 100% mitigation. This is without mentioning armor sets, passives, mobility, or any of the other benefits dodge roll gives

Hopefully this can ease some of the OPs concerns with dodge roll as a viable defensive mechanic.

lol... Dodgeroll right now is pretty much useless since 80% of the players you fight right now in Cyrodiil are magicka classes were they have at least 1 undodgeable skill. There are a couple that were out there and wasnt really an issue, specially channeled attacks (Radiant, Soul assault), but in the recent patch they added to the undodgeable list many skills that are widely and commonly used for PvP.
For example: Force Shock (destro skill).

The fact that out there its full of magicka sorcerers for example that they can simple stack 20k shields using glasscannon builds, with now several undodgable skills and some even unblockable, makes the game real unbalanced for stamina. Specially when stamina relies on dodge to survive, and 3 of the 4 classes dont even have a purge skill, neither heals.
In the end if a Magicka sorcerer gets Haunting Curse (which is unblockable, undodgeable, can crit for over 9k damage, cant reflect it...), and uses a couple force shocks your pretty much screwed, 1 mage wrath and your death. Take into consideration the destruction staff unnecesary buff to... And if they decided to use streak (undodgeable), eye of the storm (Unblockable and undodgeable) or even Soul assault (Undodgebale), your pretty much death in half a second.

So dont come here justifing the game is "balanced", and the recent patch buffs were even necesary. The game right now is in a state were the damage output is out of control, you either run cancer builds with heavy armour, or gank, or just join a massive zerg and press 1 skill like 95% of the players do. And for those who feel touched beacuse they are meta players or their main is a sorcerer, well, I do play a sorc to and its not even fun since you can 2 shot people, reason once again i try not to play the meta. And for those who say Magicka sorcerers or magicka DK's are not the meta, you clearly blinded, just go out there in cyrodiil, I wouldnt be surprised +50% are only those two classes and specs (misteriously most stamina players dissapeared, lol).

I sincerely miss the old days were 1vX was actually viable as any class/build. Feels like 2 patches or updates ago PvP started to go down the hill.

Devilhand

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dodge rolling has become very bad in this game, as has stamina in general. My suggestion to stamina users: play something else until ZOS addresses the gross imbalances.

You might have to wait over 2 years... lol

Next major update its Morrowind expansion = you have to pay real money for the new class.
That means a "misteriously" overpowered new class that will stay like that until next major patch comes...mmm 6 more months at least?

Oh, and I almost forgot... ZOS has never been able to balance the game, every change they make they make it worse.

Right now the game is in sucha state you can 1 shoot people with a destruction staff heavy attack, which its not even a skill. Dont forget about block casting heavy armour 1HS magicka DK or templars (Both stupid OP cancer builds), either you block or cast abilities, no reason to be able to do both. And the many new unblockable and undodgeable skills... Not going to even start with those, just utterly stupid.

I would love to see:

1) Block casting GONE.
2) Dodge, Block and Shields as the defensive mechanics
3) Since you cant block cast => REMOVE unblockable skills...
4) Restrict channeled attacks to be the only ones undodgeable. That means, remove Chains, Force shock, etc from the list... (Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics, beside tanks that can block.)
5) Reduce damage output in cyrodiil, when ever you able to 1 shoot people, something its clearly wrong... And I believe its related to Champion point system and poisons...
6) Reduce damage from sthealth (First hit). Why? Get rid of gankers. If you want to kill something, work for it.
7) Reduce poisons damage and draining resource % significantly. Literally its a reason why damage output out of control, and also makes 1vX real real difficult. Zerg players dont need more tools to kill people in uneven situation, they already have at least 6 times your numbers. I believe its another of the reasons why PvP is in such a bad state.
8) Re-work armour types... Wearing medium armour its a sentence of death if your not a high regen stamina nightblade or a ganker. Light armour is unviable if you dont shield stack. Right now you can actually get more survivability wearing heavy with out loosing any damage... Oh, and penetration gear + Champion points + weapon glyphs + poisons + abilities => Better go out in Cyrodiil with out gear at all, since you can literally overpass all the mitigations armour gives, unless you run of course OP shields (dont have mitigations, cant be crit and you have to hit 1 skill...). Need a serious re-work.

I believe those are my main concerns. I've been playing since beta, and the PvP in this game its probably at its worst state.

Cheers.

PD: I predict QQ's and insulting responses in 1, 2 ,3... lol

thankyourat

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dodge rolling has become very bad in this game, as has stamina in general. My suggestion to stamina users: play something else until ZOS addresses the gross imbalances.

I'm not really seeing stamina being bad. It's still a tougher fight for me 1v1 against stamina players, and they are still better at open world small scale PvP. The only time I feel magicka is better is for zerg surfing and large group play and AP farming. Magicka builds still have alot of weakness for open world PvP one is that they either lack burst as in magplar and magdk, or they have burst but it's not readily available in magblade. mix that with the fact that they don't have mobility and it can be a recipe for disaster. Pretty much the only mag classes with the same tools as stamina for open world PvP are MagSorcs. I'm not really seeing this gross imbalance but I also don't like large scale combat I can see how there could be a imbalance the favoring magicka

Lexxypwns

Devilhand wrote: »

(Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics,

Actually, this is 100% wrong. The main defense of stamina builds(that aren't blocking) is not dodge roll but actually maintaining heavy incoming hots through vigor, rally, and various weapon skills. The dodge roll is used to provide a brief invulnerability frame to allow these hots to top your health off while building for a rally burst heal. Magika Nightblades that aren't shield stacking are actually very like stam builds in this sense except healing ward substitutes for dodge roll and is more effective because its not hard countered by any mechanics.

I'm not saying that stam is in a good place, I truly believe magika is grossly overpowered right now. That gap would instantly be closed greatly with destro ult being brought into balance. However, I think dodge roll still has a good place in combat atm and I think we should look for other ways to bring stamina more on par with magika.

thankyourat

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

(Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics,

Actually, this is 100% wrong. The main defense of stamina builds(that aren't blocking) is not dodge roll but actually maintaining heavy incoming hots through vigor, rally, and various weapon skills. The dodge roll is used to provide a brief invulnerability frame to allow these hots to top your health off while building for a rally burst heal. Magika Nightblades that aren't shield stacking are actually very like stam builds in this sense except healing ward substitutes for dodge roll and is more effective because its not hard countered by any mechanics.

I'm not saying that stam is in a good place, I truly believe magika is grossly overpowered right now. That gap would instantly be closed greatly with destro ult being brought into balance. However, I think dodge roll still has a good place in combat atm and I think we should look for other ways to bring stamina more on par with magika.

I have been seeing people say magicka is overpowered, but I'm just not seeing it. Stamina builds still seem really powerful and in the case of stam dk and stam sorc it feels like they are kind of over performing. Like I would still much rather fight a magicka sorc instead of a stamina sorc. I also feel like magicka classes have far worse sustain than their stamina counterparts, Forcing magicka builds into running a sustain set while stamina builds can stack 3 damage sets. The time I do find magicka to be op is when I'm zerg surfing but if I'm just solo roaming cyrodiil stamina builds still seem stronger just because of higher burst and more mobility. no matter what on my mag builds I get pinned down even if I'm running mist form, I get pinned down alot less when playing stamina. for me it's alot easier to beat magicka builds 1v1 than it is for me to beat their stamina counterpart with magblade being the exception. Both magicka and stamina feel viable right now. I'm really not seeing the whole stamina needs a buff thing. Maybe I should play more group play so I could get a different perspective

olsborg

Metemsycosis wrote: »

And you can still have sick burst after dodge rolling ten times. Or blocking for thirty seconds etc

If you dodgeroll 10 times in combat and still have stamina left to do anything, I bet my left hand you dont have burst to kill the npc-wolfs in cyrodiil.

olsborg

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

(Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics,

Actually, this is 100% wrong. The main defense of stamina builds(that aren't blocking) is not dodge roll but actually maintaining heavy incoming hots through vigor, rally, and various weapon skills. The dodge roll is used to provide a brief invulnerability frame to allow these hots to top your health off while building for a rally burst heal. Magika Nightblades that aren't shield stacking are actually very like stam builds in this sense except healing ward substitutes for dodge roll and is more effective because its not hard countered by any mechanics.

I'm not saying that stam is in a good place, I truly believe magika is grossly overpowered right now. That gap would instantly be closed greatly with destro ult being brought into balance. However, I think dodge roll still has a good place in combat atm and I think we should look for other ways to bring stamina more on par with magika.

Agreed (bolded it). With how shieldstack/spam still works, and how flamestaff got a significant dmg buff etc etc, and how dodgeroll/medium armor playstyle got even more counterplay removed (more and more skills are undodgeable) stamina and specificly full medium armor playstyles are up shi**'s creek atm. Example is soul assault or metoer, only counter to those are blocking, if you are medium armor build you will shut down an integral part of your build for several seconds while doing so (stamina regen, dodge) This applies to almost all ulties, and a plethura of skills (mostly magicka)

ScooberSteve

Medium armor in pvp is rubbish at the moment if you cant beat someone in medium you got problems

Devilhand

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

(Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics,

Actually, this is 100% wrong. The main defense of stamina builds(that aren't blocking) is not dodge roll but actually maintaining heavy incoming hots through vigor, rally, and various weapon skills. The dodge roll is used to provide a brief invulnerability frame to allow these hots to top your health off while building for a rally burst heal. Magika Nightblades that aren't shield stacking are actually very like stam builds in this sense except healing ward substitutes for dodge roll and is more effective because its not hard countered by any mechanics.

I'm not saying that stam is in a good place, I truly believe magika is grossly overpowered right now. That gap would instantly be closed greatly with destro ult being brought into balance. However, I think dodge roll still has a good place in combat atm and I think we should look for other ways to bring stamina more on par with magika.

mmm... Well, yes HoT's are indeed important, but right now the only defensive mechanic you have as a stamina build is dodge or blocking. You wont be able to survive the burst otherwise, and even if you dodge now you might still get blown in a second.

For example, even with rally and vigor HoT's (which are the 2 main if not all the heals a regular stamina build has), a magicka sorcerer gets a: Curse (undodgeable & unblockable) => Light attack => Force shock (undodgeable)=> Mage wrath => Streak (undodgeable) => C-Frag or what ever Ultimate he have (Soul asault, Meteor, EoS... All Undodgeable and some even unblockable..) => Your death. With or with out HoT's and Dodgeing or not. And this rotation does not even include poisons.
Before the patch it was similar, but the issue now it's the increased amount fo sorcerers out there, just takes them as much skill as casting Haunting Curse on you, and your done, each will hit for 6 to 10k damage depending the sorcerer, and theres nothing you can do but run away as a medium armour stamina build with no purge and dodgeroll barely working.

So people that say Mag Sorcerer is in a balance position *** me off, beacuse if it was so people would not had switched from stamina builds to magicka sorcerers or mag DK's after the update. The combination of the changed skills and new passives it's what makes the unbalance real, and the issue it's not solved by buffing stamina next patch and having a unplayable game, balance has to come from a more general point of view getting rid of badly designed mechanics and lowering the damage output (which from my point of view, i described those on the previous post.)

In the other side, Magicka DK's and Magicka templars with 1HS can pretty much perma block while doing high amount of damage or heals... Anyone with their feet in the ground would understand that block casting should'nt be allowed. Either you block (defensive) or use skills (Heals or DPS), doing both turns a DPS or Healer into a tank that can take damage every 8 seconds now for a brief period of time if the player and build are OK. This badly designed mechanic it's probably the reason there are so many cancer builds out there and probably it is responsable of other awful designed mechanic => Unblockable skills (Yep, EoS, Curse, Power of the light... HUGE burst damage, and nothing yu can do if its not mist form or spamm heals or shields. Other wise your ***).

Devilhand

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Lexxypwns

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

(Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics,

Actually, this is 100% wrong. The main defense of stamina builds(that aren't blocking) is not dodge roll but actually maintaining heavy incoming hots through vigor, rally, and various weapon skills. The dodge roll is used to provide a brief invulnerability frame to allow these hots to top your health off while building for a rally burst heal. Magika Nightblades that aren't shield stacking are actually very like stam builds in this sense except healing ward substitutes for dodge roll and is more effective because its not hard countered by any mechanics.

I'm not saying that stam is in a good place, I truly believe magika is grossly overpowered right now. That gap would instantly be closed greatly with destro ult being brought into balance. However, I think dodge roll still has a good place in combat atm and I think we should look for other ways to bring stamina more on par with magika.

I have been seeing people say magicka is overpowered, but I'm just not seeing it. Stamina builds still seem really powerful and in the case of stam dk and stam sorc it feels like they are kind of over performing. Like I would still much rather fight a magicka sorc instead of a stamina sorc. I also feel like magicka classes have far worse sustain than their stamina counterparts, Forcing magicka builds into running a sustain set while stamina builds can stack 3 damage sets. The time I do find magicka to be op is when I'm zerg surfing but if I'm just solo roaming cyrodiil stamina builds still seem stronger just because of higher burst and more mobility. no matter what on my mag builds I get pinned down even if I'm running mist form, I get pinned down alot less when playing stamina. for me it's alot easier to beat magicka builds 1v1 than it is for me to beat their stamina counterpart with magblade being the exception. Both magicka and stamina feel viable right now. I'm really not seeing the whole stamina needs a buff thing. Maybe I should play more group play so I could get a different perspective

See, I don't think you need a sustain set on magplar or magblade as is. Furthermore, in open world, I think you definitely need a sustain set for sDK, stamplar, and stamblade(not ganking). That really only leaves stam sorc that doesn't need to run a sustain set, which I don't mind, I think its good to have unique flavor. In homestead, with the stam nerfs incoming, sustain on stam builds is going to be much harder than what we have live on consoles, the unchained nerf is bigger than a lot of people on xbox realize, couple that with other incoming stamina nerfs and we go from magika being strong to magika being ridiculous.

Devilhand wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

(Stamina classes dont run shields or purges, dodge its their main defensive mechanics,

Actually, this is 100% wrong. The main defense of stamina builds(that aren't blocking) is not dodge roll but actually maintaining heavy incoming hots through vigor, rally, and various weapon skills. The dodge roll is used to provide a brief invulnerability frame to allow these hots to top your health off while building for a rally burst heal. Magika Nightblades that aren't shield stacking are actually very like stam builds in this sense except healing ward substitutes for dodge roll and is more effective because its not hard countered by any mechanics.

I'm not saying that stam is in a good place, I truly believe magika is grossly overpowered right now. That gap would instantly be closed greatly with destro ult being brought into balance. However, I think dodge roll still has a good place in combat atm and I think we should look for other ways to bring stamina more on par with magika.

mmm... Well, yes HoT's are indeed important, but right now the only defensive mechanic you have as a stamina build is dodge or blocking. You wont be able to survive the burst otherwise, and even if you dodge now you might still get blown in a second.

For example, even with rally and vigor HoT's (which are the 2 main if not all the heals a regular stamina build has), a magicka sorcerer gets a: Curse (undodgeable & unblockable) => Light attack => Force shock (undodgeable)=> Mage wrath => Streak (undodgeable) => C-Frag or what ever Ultimate he have (Soul asault, Meteor, EoS... All Undodgeable and some even unblockable..) => Your death. With or with out HoT's and Dodgeing or not. And this rotation does not even include poisons.
Before the patch it was similar, but the issue now it's the increased amount fo sorcerers out there, just takes them as much skill as casting Haunting Curse on you, and your done, each will hit for 6 to 10k damage depending the sorcerer, and theres nothing you can do but run away as a medium armour stamina build with no purge and dodgeroll barely working.

So people that say Mag Sorcerer is in a balance position *** me off, beacuse if it was so people would not had switched from stamina builds to magicka sorcerers or mag DK's after the update. The combination of the changed skills and new passives it's what makes the unbalance real, and the issue it's not solved by buffing stamina next patch and having a unplayable game, balance has to come from a more general point of view getting rid of badly designed mechanics and lowering the damage output (which from my point of view, i described those on the previous post.)

In the other side, Magicka DK's and Magicka templars with 1HS can pretty much perma block while doing high amount of damage or heals... Anyone with their feet in the ground would understand that block casting should'nt be allowed. Either you block (defensive) or use skills (Heals or DPS), doing both turns a DPS or Healer into a tank that can take damage every 8 seconds now for a brief period of time if the player and build are OK. This badly designed mechanic it's probably the reason there are so many cancer builds out there and probably it is responsable of other awful designed mechanic => Unblockable skills (Yep, EoS, Curse, Power of the light... HUGE burst damage, and nothing yu can do if its not mist form or spamm heals or shields. Other wise your ***).

The bolded part is blatantly false. First off, you can't perma block and do any real damage on a magplar, with most skills being cast time or channels. Secondly, stamina builds(excluding stamplar) can perma block much better than mDK or magplar and have significantly higher non-ulti damage at the same time. Pre-homestead the primary reason for magika over performing is Destro ult, post homestead, with the harsh stam nerfs, magika is significantly stronger and totally unbalanced.