Returning & continuing mag DKs -- are you happy?

NBrookus

So we got some buffs. We got a very nice heal, a tiny damage increase on one skill, and some skill reworks.

I took my DK out for a spin last night. My feelings:

• Fiery Leap is roughly equivalent to Dawnbreaker (but different) and is a reasonable cost. There is some weirdness when using it and it's not 100% reliable but I can't quite put my finger on the problem yet. It's good.
• Coagulated Dragon Blood is a legit heal. I need to get used to not pre-casting it as a buff, but it's good.
• Empowering Chains mostly functions now. I did have a few situations where it bugged out on pretty much flat ground, but reliability is WAY up, enough to be worth slotting. It gives us some much needed mobility and now I just have to get used to the Expedition buff instead of overshooting my opponent. Good with some reservations.
• Because Chains has the Empower, I am able to hit harder than I did before.
• We still can't escape or reset a fight, even with (buggy) mistform. This feels by design and I'm okay with it, but it makes heavy armor pretty much non-optional for the vast majority of DKs, and magicka based heavy armor is a very small set of options.
• With the combination of Chains and Coagulated Dragon Blood, dropping vamp might be an option for some playstyles.

I am still disappointed at the harsh nerf to wings, and standard is now totally useless in PvP. We still have some very lackluster skills like Flames of Oblivion and Cinder Storm, but what class doesn't? And we absolutely have our pants down now when facing a competent destro magicka sorc solo. Sustain is still a significant issue compared to other classes.

I am content with the changes and my DK feels in a pretty good place. Despite the qq I am hearing, I don't feel OP. I was able to take down other mag DKs they same way I did before, by out-sustaining and taking control the fight. Most magplars will probably still just purge/heal our damage. But the extra smidge of damage helped against stam players, and I actually healed through a destro ult while rooted even tho I'm still running a tanky build that doesn't get huge heals.

How are you feeling, DKs? Are you happy?

Dreth

I did fine before the patch. Have not tried chains yet...mobility was our biggest weakness before. My biggest issue is that leap played too many essential roles: gap closer, ultimate, AND execute. No other class has to worry about that. If chains is viable then that is good news but no execute still gives people a LOT of time to break if they feel they are being outplayed. But otherwise, it beats both my NB's, and my stam DK hands down.

Minalan

I'm betting half of the 'mag DK are OP' crowd are running stage four.

Easiest way to nerf MagDK damage by 20% in one step? Cure vampire.

Strider_Roshin

Minalan wrote: »

I'm betting half of the 'mag DK are OP' crowd are running stage four.

Easiest way to nerf MagDK damage by 20% in one step? Cure vampire.

You know what made me realize how OP magDKs are? Playing as one.

NBrookus

Well since no one is commenting, I take it they are happily playing their mag DKs!

pjwb16_ESO

Scales are ridiculously useless...

FloppyTouch

NBrookus wrote: »

Well since no one is commenting, I take it they are happily playing their mag DKs!

Or they all gave up again

Derra

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

Ishammael

Derra wrote: »

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

The mDK vs mSorc matchup is horrible for the DK. Mines, harness, streak, unreflectable and unlockable attacks.

NBrookus

FloppyTouch wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Well since no one is commenting, I take it they are happily playing their mag DKs!

Or they all gave up again

I'm seeing quite a few mDKs out there.

Derra wrote: »

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

The fundamentals haven't changed. Our gear selection is limited because heavy armor is a requirement for all but niche builds, we still have sustain issues so we can't stack damage like sorcs, while our defense against sorcs has been gutted. In an equally skilled match, the sorc is going to win every time now.

Plus I suspect most returning DKs are feeling their way to see how far we can push our new heal with reduced mitigation and increased damage.

BuggeX

NBrookus wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Well since no one is commenting, I take it they are happily playing their mag DKs!

Or they all gave up again

I'm seeing quite a few mDKs out there.

Derra wrote: »

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

The fundamentals haven't changed. Our gear selection is limited because heavy armor is a requirement for all but niche builds, we still have sustain issues so we can't stack damage like sorcs, while our defense against sorcs has been gutted. In an equally skilled match, the sorc is going to win every time now.

Plus I suspect most returning DKs are feeling their way to see how far we can push our new heal with reduced mitigation and increased damage.

coag blood isnt intended to be our only heal, ist more the Option to have to heal without restro when not beeing in meele range to proc the real heals from embers, power lash or inhale

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I've recently started playing magicka DK a it feels powerful. After searching for awhile on builds I don't know why anyone would say the builds are limited. They are just as limited as any other class. Take NB for instance. There are only 2 or 3 for stamina that are viable and popular. Same with mage blade. The fact that this game decided to go with classes instead of the normal elder scrolls formula of being whatever and mixing and matching is what limits everyone honestly.

Stamden

I asked some of my old DK friends to see if they'd give it another shot. After a quick look at the patch notes, they didn't feel enough was changed to really warrant putting time into the game again.

For me personally, I think the changes are nice but they don't really address the underlying issues that DKs have. Our magika costs are simply too high across the board, and with the massive nerfs to Desert Rose, there is not really a way around it. You either struggle with sustain or put so much into cost reduction that you hit like a wet noodle.

Most of the problems come from the way the game is played, not exactly DK's themselves. Ideally, DKs can wear enemies down and have better resource management to beat them. But really, Cyrodiil is all about burst builds and quick kills. Taking >10 seconds to kill someone and his buddy is just going to show up. Before you know it, there is a whole zerg on top of you.

Our lack of burst does not work well in Cyro. This would be fine, if the tradeoff was the ability to wear down enemies or small groups of enemies more effectively. DoT's are so easily countered or healed through that they are simply not that effective. Reworking Inferno to make it AoE would be a game-changer. It would allow us to pressure enemies in a way that can't simply be purged away. It is the signature DK ability and in it's current form it is just not very useful.

Other than that, I would like to see reworks for some of our more useless abilities. See my sig for more info on that. I don't really think direct damage buffs are necassary or anything. I am more for quality of life changes and functionality improvements (chains not working with any elevation change, for example). This makes diversification of builds is a big problem. Basically every DK runs the same exact skills because we don't have much options. Improvements to these skills will go a long way to help with this.

NBrookus

@Neighbor Chains is LOT better. It's very usable now.

BuggeX

Neighbor wrote: »

I asked some of my old DK friends to see if they'd give it another shot. After a quick look at the patch notes, they didn't feel enough was changed to really warrant putting time into the game again.

For me personally, I think the changes are nice but they don't really address the underlying issues that DKs have. Our magika costs are simply too high across the board, and with the massive nerfs to Desert Rose, there is not really a way around it. You either struggle with sustain or put so much into cost reduction that you hit like a wet noodle.

Other than that, I would like to see reworks for some of our more useless abilities. See my sig for more info on that. I don't really think direct damage buffs are necassary or anything. I am more for quality of like changes and functionality improvements (chains not working with any elevation change, for example).

well desert rose was op, comon that gave out 4k reg all 2 sec if you where lucky and it proced all time. now it give 500 reg.
syrabane give 2k reg if you block magick dmg, as dk you will allways block so that would be Option 2. then ther is a set that restor magicka and Stamina up on a attack, would be option 3. Option 4 would be black rose, doesnt rly have weaker stats than desert rose.

magicka cost are fine, i would even say increes cost on Talons and foz and lower on lash and inhale. root spam is a Problem and rly powerfull, solo/smalscall or in zergs.

chains work now pretty all the time, its a regular gapcloser, but not many dks using them. most dks use either mistform or foz as a gapcloser, since they have thus skill anyway sloted. i dont even know what skill i shut drop inorder to run chains meh

Stamden

NBrookus wrote: »

@Neighbor Chains is LOT better. It's very usable now.

If it could be used on top of siege walls and structures (like the old days) it would be ideal. They changed it to get rid of a few people abusing the system, but their fix was lazy. They should have kept chains the same state, and changed how getting in/out of keeps that are not being sieged.

NBrookus

Neighbor wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

@Neighbor Chains is LOT better. It's very usable now.

If it could be used on top of siege walls and structures (like the old days) it would be ideal. They changed it to get rid of a few people abusing the system, but their fix was lazy. They should have kept chains the same state, and changed how getting in/out of keeps that are not being sieged.

You can chain over breaches and in a few places from postern to 3rd floor tower if a player is in the right spot, much like gap closers.

I dropped wings for it. I hated to drop wings, but it's hard to justify a slot for it now. I am going to try feeding to stage 1 and play a night or two without mistform and see what happens. In my gut I think we still need mistform for encase spam and destro ults, but I'll give it a try and see what happens.

BuggeX wrote: »

then ther is a set that restor magicka and Stamina up on a attack, would be option 3.

Bloodthorn is the set you are thinking of. "When you deal direct damage, you restore 660 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds." It's on my list to try combo'd with Rattlecage. Stat sheet doesn't look great, but if the resource return + constitution is good enough, it might be possible to drop Atronach for Thief and/or run blue food. Plus, I think you will regen some stam while blockcasting with Bloodthorn, which you wouldn't with Amberplasm.

Syrabane is zero help when faced with stam players. I didn't like it.

2 million AP and time at the guild traders and I still don't have the 2nd shield to give Desert Rose a try.

iseko

I dropped wings(gone to ***) and igneous (because I dont feel like I need it).

Im running bloodspawn, rattlecage and sun (been meaning to get bsw but need a defending lightning staff. The grind is real).

Tbh if you invest everything into dmg and defense and just drop sustain alltogheter (got 500 mag regen, 9% spell reduction through LA and breton), well it works.

Sustain by killing people to get ulti back. Hows that for theory crafting xD.

The pain is LA magicka users due to shields. Not easy to pressure down a competent sorc. All in all the changes are good.

Rainingblood

I've tried the tweaked skills and went back to what I had been using before the patch. FL looked great. The TT showed good damage and I know the actual would be lower in Cyro, but the actual damage it was doing was at about 25% ot the TT value. Went back to Shooting Star... The rest are lackluster enough to not slot.

I did feel squishy as hell after the patch for some reason...

Adenoma

I've enjoyed ferocious leap in CP environments. I've dropped shooting star for it instead. Running 5x seducer, 5x BSW, 2x Skoria gives me a lot of burst for a heavy armor build. The cheap ult gives me a lot better sustain when I don't have to wait for 200 ult to drop a meteor to burst or drop bats at 156. I've tested using destro/Resto back bar only for their ults.

BlackMadara

Rainingblood wrote: »

I've tried the tweaked skills and went back to what I had been using before the patch. FL looked great. The TT showed good damage and I know the actual would be lower in Cyro, but the actual damage it was doing was at about 25% ot the TT value. Went back to Shooting Star... The rest are lackluster enough to not slot.

I did feel squishy as hell after the patch for some reason...

I've hit 13k leaps in light armor. Leaps damage is as high as the initial hit of meteor, but meteor's dot ticks instantly after landing. For ult cost to damage, ferocious leap is better unless you can get people to stay in the ground dot of meteor. Keep trying leap out, it's good.

Adenoma

100% agree with @BlackMadara . I've been really pleasantly surprised. The shield isn't too bad either.

ZoM_Head

Neighbor wrote: »

I asked some of my old DK friends to see if they'd give it another shot. After a quick look at the patch notes, they didn't feel enough was changed to really warrant putting time into the game again.

For me personally, I think the changes are nice but they don't really address the underlying issues that DKs have. Our magika costs are simply too high across the board, and with the massive nerfs to Desert Rose, there is not really a way around it. You either struggle with sustain or put so much into cost reduction that you hit like a wet noodle.

Most of the problems come from the way the game is played, not exactly DK's themselves. Ideally, DKs can wear enemies down and have better resource management to beat them. But really, Cyrodiil is all about burst builds and quick kills. Taking >10 seconds to kill someone and his buddy is just going to show up. Before you know it, there is a whole zerg on top of you.

Our lack of burst does not work well in Cyro. This would be fine, if the tradeoff was the ability to wear down enemies or small groups of enemies more effectively. DoT's are so easily countered or healed through that they are simply not that effective. Reworking Inferno to make it AoE would be a game-changer. It would allow us to pressure enemies in a way that can't simply be purged away. It is the signature DK ability and in it's current form it is just not very useful.

Other than that, I would like to see reworks for some of our more useless abilities. See my sig for more info on that. I don't really think direct damage buffs are necassary or anything. I am more for quality of life changes and functionality improvements (chains not working with any elevation change, for example). This makes diversification of builds is a big problem. Basically every DK runs the same exact skills because we don't have much options. Improvements to these skills will go a long way to help with this.

This pretty much sums it up.

Even when going all out damage (5x burning spell weave + 5 sun + 2 skora) the dots from engulfing and burning embers are not causing any serious pressure on the players that know what they are doing. Meaning vigor will outheal the dots for stam guys, sorcs will stack 2-3 shields, nightblades cloak (dots dont tick) and templars just cleanse them.

Whip buff is nice, but still most smart/experienced/season players now use cc pots and to get talons/petrfy to proc power lash is very hard.

Switching to heavy, yes some dmg decrease but then everyone else just deals a lot of damage your way. Sustain/outlasting in theory maybe rewarding, but today in Cyrodiil other classes burst so hard and fast it is really not working to your favour. Stam heavy builds hit harder still, and light guys have the penetration/range to deal with you. Since most of us dropped scales, you can see where the problem lies.

My mSorc, mNB and mTemplars just have much less issues in solo Cyrodiil in 5 light. Each of them has htheir own mobilitiy, counter and burst to face off mDks (the solo ones).

Off course i was able to take out low rank/level players with my mDK with ease and getting high crit numbers, but experienced players is what you wish to really see what the class can do, and sadly the mDK against those players just lacks a lot the other classes have.

Sure, we got our heal back, that is great, but that is really all there is to it IMO. Neighbour pretty much nailed it when it comes down to what the mDK really needs. But as a solo player, id rather take my mSorc over the mDK anytime (as of today in Cyrodiil). In a small group or larger, yes the mDk shines, but not solo (IMO).

Minalan

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

The mDK vs mSorc matchup is horrible for the DK. Mines, harness, streak, unreflectable and unlockable attacks.

Similar, against a good MDK it's permaroot, fossil, and then straight to your rear arc rogering you with a lava whip and spamming fossil every few seconds like clockwork.

Every class has it's annoying skills.

Derra

ZoM_Head wrote: »

My mSorc, mNB and mTemplars just have much less issues in solo Cyrodiil in 5 light. Each of them has htheir own mobilitiy, counter and burst to face off mDks (the solo ones).

Are there really templars considering light armor a valid choice for their class for open world cyro soloing?

Moglijuana

I've been having fun. I don't feel over buffed but I'm definitely able to kill things a little easier now.

ZoM_Head

Derra wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

My mSorc, mNB and mTemplars just have much less issues in solo Cyrodiil in 5 light. Each of them has htheir own mobilitiy, counter and burst to face off mDks (the solo ones).

Are there really templars considering light armor a valid choice for their class for open world cyro soloing?

I do yes, i avoid medium/large groups, basically no more than 3 players i avoid completely. But i am not...dedciated to the templar class. Having a lot of fun on the mSorc though.

Qbiken

Would be happy to play my magdk if pvp was actually playable. But due to screenfreeze and negative fps + latency going to the sky, I´m having trouble playing my magdk for the moment.

Pallio

Happy this guy is not Stam.

kadar

Derra wrote: »

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

I'm just sick of getting rage tells like the one I got yesterday: "You wouldn't have a chance against me if I wasn't a vamp."

._____________________.

NBrookus

The_Outsider wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

They´re tanky.
I have not met one magica DK that felt threatening since i cured vamp.

I'm just sick of getting rage tells like the one I got yesterday: "You wouldn't have a chance against me if I wasn't a vamp."

._____________________.

How about the ones accusing you of being FOTM?

I'm still having a little trouble securing kills, but part of that is just playstyle. I'd rather create mayhem for a small group than attempt to 1vX.