Channeled spells and counter play

Thelon · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

[Ya'll act like they should make it easier to defeat players when out numbered, that just sounds like a horrid idea

My team only considers it a win if we were outnumbered

Waffennacht · February 2017

Thelon wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

[Ya'll act like they should make it easier to defeat players when out numbered, that just sounds like a horrid idea

My team only considers it a win if we were outnumbered

@Thelon then inherently you must only be playing players worse or with worse builds than you.

I only consider it a victory if I defeat someone as skilled as myself

Thelon · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

Any reply coming even remotely close to tackling the thought procces creating this flight of fancy in your comment would probably get me permanently banned on these forums.

No worries @Derra , I got this, despite the fact that this particular individual is a pet sorc with whom I share a unique, unspoken and borderline unnatural affinity.

Etaniel wrote: »

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Oh in that case:

Get a bigger group

Please explain how getting a bigger group is even remotely related to player skill @Waffennacht

Strider_Roshin · February 2017

Any attack that can be shielded, should also be dodgeable, and blockable. We need fair counter-play. As it is now, if you're magicka you shield; if you're stamina you die.

We need to reward reactive players. If a channel can't be dodged then it needs to be within gap closing range in order to be interruptable. And if they're not going to make AoEs dodgeable, then we should at the very least take half damage. Oh, and Soul Assault should go back to being interruptable.

Waffennacht · February 2017

If the problem is:

Etaniel wrote: »

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

(Which has 0 indication of group play or being out numbered fyi)
Why the heck should I (caster) be locked out of a move because I was bashed? Not only did I just take Bash damage, and a potential hard CC you think it's fair for me to also lose that ability (even for a sec)?

That's messed up. You (the interrupter) just prevented me from successfully casting, dealt damage, potentially stunned me and get to use all of your abilities.

That's in 1v1. Already (apparently) we aren't discussing 1v1 but group play. At which point (as if it some how makes a difference) several players should be able to lock out an opposing groups rez or execute. Why? Because you're out numbered? Well no duh... you're out numbered, we should not develop mechanics (that can easily make what once was fair 1v1 or 5v5 scenarios) un balanced in favor of offensive behavior?

That's just making casted abilities a Liability and Incentivizing more (instant) offensive capabilities (including bash and interrupt)

Aka why would I run a skill that not only can cost me time but also a slot of availability when I can just run a Viper, Red Mountain instant proc fest build?

See in your idea you just gave offensive, instant attack and heal moves incentives, which only select Classes have access to. Aka you just made an incentive to NOT use a sorc. - NOT good for the game.

I think most of players are saying, "your abilities is what is having you win and not your skill."(without self reflection I might add) It seems like you feel channeled abilities (and in OP's case I believe it's a well hidden "isn't it about time to balance dark deal" thread) are OP, I disagree.

As for group play and skill: if you're out numbered, and are facing equally skilled opponents, you should never win.

@Thelon what exactly out of this do you disagree with?

Etaniel · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

If the problem is:

Etaniel wrote: »

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

(Which has 0 indication of group play or being out numbered fyi)
Why the heck should I (caster) be locked out of a move because I was bashed? Not only did I just take Bash damage, and a potential hard CC you think it's fair for me to also lose that ability (even for a sec)?

That's messed up. You (the interrupter) just prevented me from successfully casting, dealt damage, potentially stunned me and get to use all of your abilities.

That's in 1v1. Already (apparently) we aren't discussing 1v1 but group play. At which point (as if it some how makes a difference) several players should be able to lock out an opposing groups rez or execute. Why? Because you're out numbered? Well no duh... you're out numbered, we should not develop mechanics (that can easily make what once was fair 1v1 or 5v5 scenarios) un balanced in favor of offensive behavior?

That's just making casted abilities a Liability and Incentivizing more (instant) offensive capabilities (including bash and interrupt)

Aka why would I run a skill that not only can cost me time but also a slot of availability when I can just run a Viper, Red Mountain instant proc fest build?

See in your idea you just gave offensive, instant attack and heal moves incentives, which only select Classes have access to. Aka you just made an incentive to NOT use a sorc. - NOT good for the game.

I think most of players are saying, "your abilities is what is having you win and not your skill."(without self reflection I might add) It seems like you feel channeled abilities (and in OP's case I believe it's a well hidden "isn't it about time to balance dark deal" thread) are OP, I disagree.

As for group play and skill: if you're out numbered, and are facing equally skilled opponents, you should never win.

@Thelon what exactly out of this do you disagree with?

I wans't talking about 1v1, because in a 1v1 scenario no one is stupid enough to spam a jesus beam 3 times in a row in melee range. Plus, what you were saying, if he does that and doesn't take a break for healing he's going to die.
If someone wants to use dark deal in a 1v1 scenario, it shouldn't be a risk free skill seeing as it rewards so much. Punishing an interrupt means the sorc needs to be smart about his dark deal cast. Example : streak and stun the guy, and while he cc breaks you have time to cast one dark deal before he has time to reach you again.

Same goes for jesus beam, get into a proper position before casting it, or make sure your enemy is stunned so that you get the most out of it.

If you are facing equally skilled opponents, you should win if they make mistakes and you don't. Giving out win because of numbers is terrible.

Derra · February 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Any attack that can be shielded, should also be dodgeable, and blockable. We need fair counter-play. As it is now, if you're magicka you shield; if you're stamina you die.

We need to reward reactive players. If a channel can't be dodged then it needs to be within gap closing range in order to be interruptable. And if they're not going to make AoEs dodgeable, then we should at the very least take half damage. Oh, and Soul Assault should go back to being interruptable.

Though this again does not tackle the problem of dodge scaling with number of attackers while shields don´t. I don´t even disagree it´s flawed at the moment. I think the next patch will go some way to alleviate the problems with it though.

Currently if i get into a sticky position (compared to out NB in grp) i die. More dps than i can shield = dead. There is no such thing as: More dps than you can dodge = dead.

FloppyTouch · February 2017

Not 100% sure on this but don't they lose magic every time they use the ability and its interrupted?
Sounds like a great way to run them low on magic and Stam so you can kill, no?

Derra · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

If the problem is:

Etaniel wrote: »

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

(Which has 0 indication of group play or being out numbered fyi)
Why the heck should I (caster) be locked out of a move because I was bashed? Not only did I just take Bash damage, and a potential hard CC you think it's fair for me to also lose that ability (even for a sec)?

That's messed up. You (the interrupter) just prevented me from successfully casting, dealt damage, potentially stunned me and get to use all of your abilities.

That's in 1v1. Already (apparently) we aren't discussing 1v1 but group play. At which point (as if it some how makes a difference) several players should be able to lock out an opposing groups rez or execute. Why? Because you're out numbered? Well no duh... you're out numbered, we should not develop mechanics (that can easily make what once was fair 1v1 or 5v5 scenarios) un balanced in favor of offensive behavior?

That's just making casted abilities a Liability and Incentivizing more (instant) offensive capabilities (including bash and interrupt)

Aka why would I run a skill that not only can cost me time but also a slot of availability when I can just run a Viper, Red Mountain instant proc fest build?

See in your idea you just gave offensive, instant attack and heal moves incentives, which only select Classes have access to. Aka you just made an incentive to NOT use a sorc. - NOT good for the game.

I think most of players are saying, "your abilities is what is having you win and not your skill."(without self reflection I might add) It seems like you feel channeled abilities (and in OP's case I believe it's a well hidden "isn't it about time to balance dark deal" thread) are OP, I disagree.

As for group play and skill: if you're out numbered, and are facing equally skilled opponents, you should never win.

@Thelon what exactly out of this do you disagree with?

They should be a liability if used in the wrong moment - and feel awesome if executed correctly (that was also stated by the devs).
Currently they are not. There is no drawback to casting them and if interrupted casting them again and again and again and again and again. That´s precisely the issue.

After this change people would still run: Jesusbeam, Dark deal (and morphs). They´re uncontested in terms of efficiency even if they HAD a drawback to them.

The only abilities i can think of that would suffer from this are probably pets, fragments and darkflare. The latter two because they offer counterplay in two ways (interrupts and dodge/block due to slow animation + sounds). Pets imo still need a complete rework to be usable in cyrodiil reliably.

Sheuib · February 2017

Make wrecking blow interruptable and I would consider this because that is the worst of the spammed cast time abilities.

Derra · February 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Not 100% sure on this but don't they lose magic every time they use the ability and its interrupted?
Sounds like a great way to run them low on magic and Stam so you can kill, no?

For channels - yes. For casted abilities - no. They cost magica/stamina when the cast is completed.

Waffennacht · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If the problem is:

Etaniel wrote: »

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

(Which has 0 indication of group play or being out numbered fyi)
Why the heck should I (caster) be locked out of a move because I was bashed? Not only did I just take Bash damage, and a potential hard CC you think it's fair for me to also lose that ability (even for a sec)?

That's messed up. You (the interrupter) just prevented me from successfully casting, dealt damage, potentially stunned me and get to use all of your abilities.

That's in 1v1. Already (apparently) we aren't discussing 1v1 but group play. At which point (as if it some how makes a difference) several players should be able to lock out an opposing groups rez or execute. Why? Because you're out numbered? Well no duh... you're out numbered, we should not develop mechanics (that can easily make what once was fair 1v1 or 5v5 scenarios) un balanced in favor of offensive behavior?

That's just making casted abilities a Liability and Incentivizing more (instant) offensive capabilities (including bash and interrupt)

Aka why would I run a skill that not only can cost me time but also a slot of availability when I can just run a Viper, Red Mountain instant proc fest build?

See in your idea you just gave offensive, instant attack and heal moves incentives, which only select Classes have access to. Aka you just made an incentive to NOT use a sorc. - NOT good for the game.

I think most of players are saying, "your abilities is what is having you win and not your skill."(without self reflection I might add) It seems like you feel channeled abilities (and in OP's case I believe it's a well hidden "isn't it about time to balance dark deal" thread) are OP, I disagree.

As for group play and skill: if you're out numbered, and are facing equally skilled opponents, you should never win.

@Thelon what exactly out of this do you disagree with?

I wans't talking about 1v1, because in a 1v1 scenario no one is stupid enough to spam a jesus beam 3 times in a row in melee range. Plus, what you were saying, if he does that and doesn't take a break for healing he's going to die.
If someone wants to use dark deal in a 1v1 scenario, it shouldn't be a risk free skill seeing as it rewards so much. Punishing an interrupt means the sorc needs to be smart about his dark deal cast. Example : streak and stun the guy, and while he cc breaks you have time to cast one dark deal before he has time to reach you again.

Same goes for jesus beam, get into a proper position before casting it, or make sure your enemy is stunned so that you get the most out of it.

If you are facing equally skilled opponents, you should win if they make mistakes and you don't. Giving out win because of numbers is terrible.

First off, that first bit seems like a cost and reward right there. As is it doesn't at all seem like a "risk-free" to me - however other threads are about this ability specifically and we (I hope) are not discussing specific abilities. ( if you can't tell im not fond of nerfs)

That second bit, it seems completely unavoidable without completely destroying 1v1 or duels (I know a lot of players poo poo dueling that's fine but it's still something that has to be considered) whatever means you find to make a 2v6 scenario (you being the 2) where the 2 has a shot at winning I guarantee will be abused in 1v1.

@Derra that quote was only about dark deal/conversion (it was SO bad back in the day) not about all channels feeling awesome. They are not suppose to be mini ults but just another ability. Each time I try to cast dark deal and you bash me I do take damage, if nothing were to change (aka I dark deal time after time and you bash time after time) I will lose.

It shouldn't be an auto GG just becaused I tried to use a channeled ability.

Again, this also hurts classes unequally. NB, DK, and Temp all have (in u13 esp) have instant heals, Sorcs do not. (Again I think this is a hidden nerf dark deal thread)

I just do not see how you can do any of the ideas suggested in this thread without completely destroying any semblance of balance in duels (again I know a lot don't care - but I do)

Derra · February 2017

You do realise i´m playing sorc ._.?

Etaniel · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If the problem is:

Etaniel wrote: »

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

(Which has 0 indication of group play or being out numbered fyi)
Why the heck should I (caster) be locked out of a move because I was bashed? Not only did I just take Bash damage, and a potential hard CC you think it's fair for me to also lose that ability (even for a sec)?

That's messed up. You (the interrupter) just prevented me from successfully casting, dealt damage, potentially stunned me and get to use all of your abilities.

That's in 1v1. Already (apparently) we aren't discussing 1v1 but group play. At which point (as if it some how makes a difference) several players should be able to lock out an opposing groups rez or execute. Why? Because you're out numbered? Well no duh... you're out numbered, we should not develop mechanics (that can easily make what once was fair 1v1 or 5v5 scenarios) un balanced in favor of offensive behavior?

That's just making casted abilities a Liability and Incentivizing more (instant) offensive capabilities (including bash and interrupt)

Aka why would I run a skill that not only can cost me time but also a slot of availability when I can just run a Viper, Red Mountain instant proc fest build?

See in your idea you just gave offensive, instant attack and heal moves incentives, which only select Classes have access to. Aka you just made an incentive to NOT use a sorc. - NOT good for the game.

I think most of players are saying, "your abilities is what is having you win and not your skill."(without self reflection I might add) It seems like you feel channeled abilities (and in OP's case I believe it's a well hidden "isn't it about time to balance dark deal" thread) are OP, I disagree.

As for group play and skill: if you're out numbered, and are facing equally skilled opponents, you should never win.

@Thelon what exactly out of this do you disagree with?

I wans't talking about 1v1, because in a 1v1 scenario no one is stupid enough to spam a jesus beam 3 times in a row in melee range. Plus, what you were saying, if he does that and doesn't take a break for healing he's going to die.
If someone wants to use dark deal in a 1v1 scenario, it shouldn't be a risk free skill seeing as it rewards so much. Punishing an interrupt means the sorc needs to be smart about his dark deal cast. Example : streak and stun the guy, and while he cc breaks you have time to cast one dark deal before he has time to reach you again.

Same goes for jesus beam, get into a proper position before casting it, or make sure your enemy is stunned so that you get the most out of it.

If you are facing equally skilled opponents, you should win if they make mistakes and you don't. Giving out win because of numbers is terrible.

First off, that first bit seems like a cost and reward right there. As is it doesn't at all seem like a "risk-free" to me - however other threads are about this ability specifically and we (I hope) are not discussing specific abilities. ( if you can't tell im not fond of nerfs)

That second bit, it seems completely unavoidable without completely destroying 1v1 or duels (I know a lot of players poo poo dueling that's fine but it's still something that has to be considered) whatever means you find to make a 2v6 scenario (you being the 2) where the 2 has a shot at winning I guarantee will be abused in 1v1.

I still don't see how any of this affects duels. If you are trying to spam dark deal in melee range and you get bashed all the time, you're not accomplishing anyways, so you might as well do something else instead of wasting time. If your skill is disabled for a short duration, it forces you to find another solution.

I don't see how this can abused in duels, in can be used of course, but not "abused".

Waffennacht · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If the problem is:

Etaniel wrote: »

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

(Which has 0 indication of group play or being out numbered fyi)
Why the heck should I (caster) be locked out of a move because I was bashed? Not only did I just take Bash damage, and a potential hard CC you think it's fair for me to also lose that ability (even for a sec)?

That's messed up. You (the interrupter) just prevented me from successfully casting, dealt damage, potentially stunned me and get to use all of your abilities.

That's in 1v1. Already (apparently) we aren't discussing 1v1 but group play. At which point (as if it some how makes a difference) several players should be able to lock out an opposing groups rez or execute. Why? Because you're out numbered? Well no duh... you're out numbered, we should not develop mechanics (that can easily make what once was fair 1v1 or 5v5 scenarios) un balanced in favor of offensive behavior?

That's just making casted abilities a Liability and Incentivizing more (instant) offensive capabilities (including bash and interrupt)

Aka why would I run a skill that not only can cost me time but also a slot of availability when I can just run a Viper, Red Mountain instant proc fest build?

See in your idea you just gave offensive, instant attack and heal moves incentives, which only select Classes have access to. Aka you just made an incentive to NOT use a sorc. - NOT good for the game.

I think most of players are saying, "your abilities is what is having you win and not your skill."(without self reflection I might add) It seems like you feel channeled abilities (and in OP's case I believe it's a well hidden "isn't it about time to balance dark deal" thread) are OP, I disagree.

As for group play and skill: if you're out numbered, and are facing equally skilled opponents, you should never win.

@Thelon what exactly out of this do you disagree with?

I wans't talking about 1v1, because in a 1v1 scenario no one is stupid enough to spam a jesus beam 3 times in a row in melee range. Plus, what you were saying, if he does that and doesn't take a break for healing he's going to die.
If someone wants to use dark deal in a 1v1 scenario, it shouldn't be a risk free skill seeing as it rewards so much. Punishing an interrupt means the sorc needs to be smart about his dark deal cast. Example : streak and stun the guy, and while he cc breaks you have time to cast one dark deal before he has time to reach you again.

Same goes for jesus beam, get into a proper position before casting it, or make sure your enemy is stunned so that you get the most out of it.

If you are facing equally skilled opponents, you should win if they make mistakes and you don't. Giving out win because of numbers is terrible.

First off, that first bit seems like a cost and reward right there. As is it doesn't at all seem like a "risk-free" to me - however other threads are about this ability specifically and we (I hope) are not discussing specific abilities. ( if you can't tell im not fond of nerfs)

That second bit, it seems completely unavoidable without completely destroying 1v1 or duels (I know a lot of players poo poo dueling that's fine but it's still something that has to be considered) whatever means you find to make a 2v6 scenario (you being the 2) where the 2 has a shot at winning I guarantee will be abused in 1v1.

I still don't see how any of this affects duels. If you are trying to spam dark deal in melee range and you get bashed all the time, you're not accomplishing anyways, so you might as well do something else instead of wasting time. If your skill is disabled for a short duration, it forces you to find another solution.

I don't see how this can abused in duels, in can be used of course, but not "abused".

@Derra yes (was using a non specific "you" not literally your character

@Etaniel a lock out for 5 secs for channeled abilities? Abuse may not have been the right word, whatever word that means completely @$!# up 1v1 for temps and sorcs (do DKs and NBs even have channels?)

Edit: No they do not - this thread is entirely about Temps and Sorcs. Sorcs do not deserve another nerf and temps are being nerfed in u13

Neoauspex · February 2017

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

Etaniel · February 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Waffennacht · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

But there is! Damage! Time! And potentially hard CC, what advantage do I get for trying to cast 6times in a row? None, why should you be able to bash infinitely with no drawbacks? - going by your logic you should only be able to bash once every 5 seconds.

Neoauspex · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

Etaniel · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

But there is! Damage! Time! And potentially hard CC, what advantage do I get for trying to cast 6times in a row? None, why should you be able to bash infinitely with no drawbacks?

Jesus beam has an instant tick doesn't it?
Dark deal doesn't cost you anything during the cast?
Rezzing certainly has no drawback

The drawback I have is that I am forced to stay in one position to bash. It drain my stam or magicka and makes me vulnerable because I can't move.

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

So keep it as it is? Encourage players to keep pressing one button until it works?

Derra · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

But there is! Damage! Time! And potentially hard CC, what advantage do I get for trying to cast 6times in a row? None, why should you be able to bash infinitely with no drawbacks? - going by your logic you should only be able to bash once every 5 seconds.

You get the advantage when you finish your cast. Which for most casts is enough to warrant the risk even currently.

Neoauspex · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

But there is! Damage! Time! And potentially hard CC, what advantage do I get for trying to cast 6times in a row? None, why should you be able to bash infinitely with no drawbacks?

Jesus beam has an instant tick doesn't it?
Dark deal doesn't cost you anything during the cast?
Rezzing certainly has no drawback

The drawback I have is that I am forced to stay in one position to bash. It drain my stam or magicka and makes me vulnerable because I can't move.

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

So keep it as it is? Encourage players to keep pressing one button until it works?

Except, it didn't work. It doesn't work. It will work 21% less in a few days. Just get above 50% health and kill them next time.

Etaniel · February 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

And you do realise that I ask to buff these channelled abilities to go along with this? Higher risk, higher reward.

Koolio · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

But there is! Damage! Time! And potentially hard CC, what advantage do I get for trying to cast 6times in a row? None, why should you be able to bash infinitely with no drawbacks?

Jesus beam has an instant tick doesn't it?
Dark deal doesn't cost you anything during the cast?
Rezzing certainly has no drawback

The drawback I have is that I am forced to stay in one position to bash. It drain my stam or magicka and makes me vulnerable because I can't move.

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

So keep it as it is? Encourage players to keep pressing one button until it works?

Use Venom Arrow/crushing shock. You can move up to 42 meters away.

Neoauspex · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

And you do realise that I ask to buff these channelled abilities to go along with this? Higher risk, higher reward.

I read your suggestion. I think you'd have to pick and choose which channels to apply it to, and ZoS has been trying to homogenize skill types for the last 2 years. You'd have to redesign half of the Templar skills, they are all channels. Sweeps would be suicide. It would be easier for you to stop bashing them and kill them than it would be to redesign the game.

Etaniel · February 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

And you do realise that I ask to buff these channelled abilities to go along with this? Higher risk, higher reward.

I read your suggestion. I think you'd have to pick and choose which channels to apply it to, and ZoS has been trying to homogenize skill types for the last 2 years. You'd have to redesign half of the Templar skills, they are all channels. Sweeps would be suicide. It would be easier for you to stop bashing them and kill them than it would be to redesign the game.

I can't kill someone who spams dark deal if I let him do it though. That's a heal and some massive sustain .
Letting someone jesus beam me 100% of the time puts me at risk in case someone gets me in execute range and then poof I'm gone. Zos implemented interrupts, and they aren't effective. Applying CC to a target through an interrupt is actually a disadvantage, because you don't choose when yo apply the CC, since the whole point of interrupting is stopping someone as fast as possible from doing whatever he's doing.

But anyhow, even if your advice is the best to win the fight, don't you think that's a problem? Basically casting away a mechanic and replace it with dps? I think that it shows an obvious flaw in combat design.

And what do you think about the rezzing part ?

Etaniel · February 2017

Koolio wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

But there is! Damage! Time! And potentially hard CC, what advantage do I get for trying to cast 6times in a row? None, why should you be able to bash infinitely with no drawbacks?

Jesus beam has an instant tick doesn't it?
Dark deal doesn't cost you anything during the cast?
Rezzing certainly has no drawback

The drawback I have is that I am forced to stay in one position to bash. It drain my stam or magicka and makes me vulnerable because I can't move.

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

So keep it as it is? Encourage players to keep pressing one button until it works?

Use Venom Arrow/crushing shock. You can move up to 42 meters away.

It's ultimately the exact same problem. My movement problem is only tied to the fact that I deal melee damage, so not moving = not switching target.

Using a ranged skill doesn't change that at all, because you can move, but movement isn't required for you since you're interrupting from range. THe problem still stays, you can't change targets.

SodanTok · February 2017

The whole package called "counter play" is big pile of *** currently.
There are situation where one counterplay is just broken OP and leaves no way to counter their counter play. Then there are situation where one counterplay just does nothing and attacker could be brain dead and win.
There are classes (or builds) that are just completely lacking some counterplay possibilities or are very very weak at them, then there are builds that just have everything.

Everybody that reacts to attack with some counterplay should be awarded by that. They should have any means necessary to perform such counterplay and their skill should be what decides how the counter play was successful.

Every counterplay should be reactionary, not something that you can do 99% of the time almost without second thought.

I would even go in dangerous waters and say CC immunity on demand (from pots) shouldnt be as powerful as CC immunity gained from breaking. In one situation you get stunned and break free, therefore you deserve some free time. In other you drink your pot and that is it, you are free to cc other people, active your destro ult and nothing but fatal damage can stop you for pretty long time. Force them to react to cc attempts, not disregard them.

ku5h · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

If you use LA/skill and then bash as an interrupt, you gain a whole lot in those 6 interrupts. Basicly you gain 6 free GCDs since your opponent just spent 6 sec failing to channel a skill.

Neoauspex · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I think anything that damages me should have a 5 second lock out. But only me, not anyone else.

Ooo, and anything that heals other players. But not things that heal me.

I think that when I interrupt someone 6 times in a row and he has no drawbacks, there is a problem.

Seems like it would only be a problem if you died. But it sounds like you countered what they were doing 6 times in a row.

And you do realise that I ask to buff these channelled abilities to go along with this? Higher risk, higher reward.

I read your suggestion. I think you'd have to pick and choose which channels to apply it to, and ZoS has been trying to homogenize skill types for the last 2 years. You'd have to redesign half of the Templar skills, they are all channels. Sweeps would be suicide. It would be easier for you to stop bashing them and kill them than it would be to redesign the game.

I can't kill someone who spams dark deal if I let him do it though. That's a heal and some massive sustain .
Letting someone jesus beam me 100% of the time puts me at risk in case someone gets me in execute range and then poof I'm gone. Zos implemented interrupts, and they aren't effective. Applying CC to a target through an interrupt is actually a disadvantage, because you don't choose when yo apply the CC, since the whole point of interrupting is stopping someone as fast as possible from doing whatever he's doing.

But anyhow, even if your advice is the best to win the fight, don't you think that's a problem? Basically casting away a mechanic and replace it with dps? I think that it shows an obvious flaw in combat design.

And what do you think about the rezzing part ?

Dark deal doesn't damage you, so if somebody is spamming that you are at an impasse, not a disadvantage. It's hard to kill any decent player in this game without a hard CC.

ZoS is addressing Radiant Destruction by making it 21% less effective. I understand the frustrations of that skill in open world situations. I personally think it should do damage inversely relative to its range so that people spamming it safely in the back of a zerg are doing nothing, but it's still a valuable asset when the caster is at risk, in melee.

I don't have an opinion on rezzing, I personally feel very at risk when doing so but some of that may change with the proc set change and the other balance changes.