The poisonous atmosphere in high-end duelling

fred4

That title may be presumptuous. I am told I'm getting quite good at duelling, but have never participated in a tournament to prove my mettle. Before One Tamriel I was in the Colosseum guild on PC EU for a while. I know there were rules in their tournaments, such as no Immovability pots, no Malubeth, and so on. Now, I'm not aware that ZOS prescribes such rules for duelling in One Tamriel. Indeed I much prefer duelling to reflect fights in the open world, so that I adjust my habits and my build accordingly. For example, I use Immovability pots. It's primarily for stamina management. The less breaking free, the more stamina you conserve. This has a knock on effect on the build, e.g. the amount of stam regen you put into it.

Of course other players don't see it that way. Today one ran screaming for the hills, abandoning the duel and exclaiming in chat that I use Immovability pots, as if the other duellers would care. He then asserted that I know nothing about duelling. Duelling etiquette, that is. Regardless, I immediately got two further duelling requests from others.

The trouble with these pronouncements is that they are usually self-serving. I find them incredibly whiny. Sure enough, this guy was a mag. DK. I did something to counter his build. A very real reason to complain. Should I nerf myself so he might have an easier win? I don't think so. I find mag. DKs incredibly strong 1v1, at least against my build.

The most frequent criticism I get, is that I run away. Apparently this is not the proper thing to do in duels. I don't run out of bounds, but my build is such that I work myself free from snares with Forward Momentum. I paid a price for that. I don't have a burst heal (Rally). Instead, when my health drops low or I want to buff up, I prefer to run out of range. I use speed pots too and don't stand in a templar's jabs or a low-slash spammers attacks. That's the whole point of my build. Do something like this, something that counters other builds, though, and they whine. Often it's disguised as if I'm doing something improper, or something boring. Complete BS. All it means is that their build doesn't have a counter, no gap closer or ranged attack, perhaps.

The most amusing complaints came from a sorc, today, who stopped fighting me when I fossilized his pet. He also mentioned that I "use wings". Well, duh, I'm a DK.

The better you get at duelling, the more you run into people like this. Good players. Players that you want to fight, because you too are getting good. Players that will defeat you half the time, even when you throw everything at them. Still they whine.

[Deleted User]

We've gone ahead and moved this thread to the Dueling section of forums.

fred4

I should add it's not all like that. I guess I'm a bit down on the game today. I've made many friends duelling and I've run into some unique an interesting builds lately too.

ManDraKE

In general, the only thing that is not acceptable in a duel is using LoS. It destroys the point of a duel is we are going to keep running around a tree or a rock. For the rest, i don't care much, use the pots you want and the gear/skills you want.

Malubeth is kinda stupid in a duel, so in general i try to avoid malubeth users, but that is my prerogative, i don't go around telling people what to use or what not.

fred4

Thank you! I think I needed to hear that. Sometimes I consider whether to accommodate other players rules, but it seems kind of stupid when you don't know them and when they're obviously competitive anyway.

I agree on Malubeth purely because I use Flurry. It yields 5 proc chances for Malubeth and I literally cannot win, because I can't outdamage their constant healing, caused by my main attack. Ironically magplars seem to be the most frequent Malubeth users, usually tanky ones that don't do a lot of damage, so it's often a stalemate.

LoS can be annoying, but I think it's one of those challenges you have to deal with. I had a really good fight against a sorc who jammed his mines into an awkward place in Rawl'kha. Not exactly LoS, but using the terrain. It was fun.

Kutsuu

This should give you some insight into the nature of "balance PVP" posts that are plastered over every page and subsection of this forum. In the eyes of many, anything that people use to win is unfair or imbalanced. I was discussing this with a friend yesterday... every single successful build you'll find has its strengths that you utilize to kill others, which are almost always labeled as "cheese" or "cancer" by those who are dying. Even these "no proc non meta" builds have 5-piece bonuses that add significant damage or defense, which results in people dying (or at least not winning) - and don't worry someone will still call you cheese for using a buff or a potion even if you're the most hipster of hipsters in using non-meta sets/builds.

The point I'm trying to make is that what you're describing is not at all limited to dueling. It's prevalent in all forms of PVP, and I've seen it in every game I have played that has PVP. The sad mistake that many developers make is giving in to the whining on their forums instead of carefully and methodically testing for themselves to make decisions. Another that ZOS continues to make is their choice to release balance patches every 3-6 months and change an overwhelming amount of things each time. There is absolutely no way to fine tune like this. PVP patches should be small and incremental. They should also be willing to roll back updates that cause unexpected results.

Oh well. I just don't let it bother me when people complain about my build. That just means I'm doing things right.

Abob

IMO, everything except LOS is ok.

I've been in all dueling guilds EU, and ended up leaving cause they are full of narcissistic whiners.

alephthiago

If you duel me, i will accept proc sets, any ultis, poisons, pots and fasallas, why? Because in open world pvp you will find that kind of stuff always anyway.

Kutsuu

I don't mind if people try to LOS me even. LOS is out in Cyrodiil as well. A big part of killing those leetsauce 1vX streamers in a 1v1 fight is being able to stop them and kill them while they dodge roll around a tree ad nauseum trying to heal up when the fight doesn't go their way. May as well practice for it in duels.

fred4

Kutsuu, you have perfectly articulated what was in the back of my mind. I particularly like your description of non-proc-set users as "hipsters". Masochists also seems accurate. I was intrigued when Sypher recently released a video stating he will will go back to more "unique" non-proc set builds, in reaction to his hipster audience. Has he forgotten what made him switch in the first place?

Personally I'm glad to be using proc sets. The DPS jump is real and testable, about 3k DPS for each set in PvE. People complain that this lowers the bar, enabling less skilled players. I don't think that's true. Yes, it simplifies the attack rotation. I can basically spam Bloodthirst and not much else will improve on it, since my weapon damage and stamina are low. However, this allowed me to load up my build with utility. I have counters for most everyone. DK wings are the perfect example. Often unused, they become terribly useful against magsorcs and magblades. Furthermore, because proc sets neither depend on weapon damage nor max stamina, I was able to use drinks instead of food and get the mag regen to sustain wings at a decent rate, even though I'm a stam DK.

Rataroto

I take on everyone that wants a fair fight. if you line of sight, I'll either use the time to recover myself, i'll persue you, or poke u from a distance, as long as you don't just chicken away to end the duel and avoid diying, i'm ok with everything. A duel is a duel.

The most crying I get is for using eternal hunt and sometimes i get whispers: "I was in pve gear and skills you ****", for those peeps i give the usual GG

it stands for Get Gud

KramUzibra

What does los mean

Foxic

KramUzibra wrote: »

What does los mean

Line of sight. Like hiding behind a rock so the opponent can't attack you

kaithuzar

I have mixed feelings.
I don't really duel anymore except to test builds, dmg, & healing with friends.
Often I'm running around in cyrodiil, I would upset someone or someone would upset me, one of us would say "lets duel over it". 75% of the time, this details in the other person swapping armor or logging on to a different toon; I'm like..... lolwut?!?!

As for the top duelers "the supposed best of the best", they know what they are running , they know what you are running; they can easily tell. There is NO verification that they don't spend the lousy 3k gold to swap CP directly before fighting you to give themselves an advantage; b/c winning is everything right?
Prize money/Pride.

Poisons give a false sense of security, like some other things in this game....
I haven't used poisons in a long while but recently I've been having them used on me a ton!
Most of the time we are running small man 3-5 players so it hasn't been detrimental to me, but it has been annoying. But don't think that you're gud if you kill me while running poisons b/c odds are the minute I put poisons on too you'll die. #provenPTS1tamriel

I like to mess around 1vx'ing although it's not great anymore, it's better than zerging or patiently trying to get a proxy bomb off. I feel like it's still kinda possible if you have a few dudes in group the enemy will almost always have more.

It just my build, I know what my playstyle is & what is needed for me to accomplish what I want to do. Sure things suffer, like I don't have as great of heals as I wish, my damage isn't as high as I want, I'm not as tanky as I would like, but none of that really matters b/c it's perfect for me; little tweaks here & there are always in progress.

gl mate,
-Kai
(The last magicka melee nightblade)

zuto40

i wont fight tanks or people who los in duels, it simply isnt fun and its not really a duel if someones holding block or running around a tree the whole time

aLi3nZ

I don't event get annoyed at players who run out of LOS to heal. The only ones whom I shun is those using poisons.

Cavarka

Use all the tools at your disposal to win. Morality is a line pushed by the weak to attempt to control the strong.

Strider_Roshin

Cavarka wrote: »

Use all the tools at your disposal to win. Morality is a line pushed by the weak to attempt to control the strong.

Completely incorrect. Morality is upheld by the strong like a faithful husband. The weak are those that disregard morality, and indulge in their passions; like the cheating spouse. It is more difficult to restrain than it is to give in.

ostrapz

I understand alot of what people are saying in here, and I disagree with alot of it. I love open world, i duel on occasion to test my builds and keep my 1on1 skills up. Alot of people don't take into account that you get to fully adjust your build in duels for a 1v1, which is often extremely diffrent from open world builds. For example, i use dw/2h in duel instead of bow since my bow is mainly for movement speed. I also take Cloak off sometimes since it's hard to use in a duel and doesn't have as much use in open world. I view 1v1 in a open world fight much more fun and fair than a duel. In my mind a duel should try to reflect open world as much as possible

The reason some things are considered unsavory or unsportsmanlike in duels stems from this in my opinion. The fact you are fully prepared for a 1on1 should remove the need for alot of things. Line of sight, immovable pots and skill/cp changes according to who you are fighting are not cool imo, and while running the full cheese build such as multi proc setup isn't exactly banned id consider it a bit goofy to me considering your loading what is generally accepted as overpowered things onto your character. In open world you justify with needing to deal with the unknown, in a duel I generally view it as trying to improve your skill, not just throw on overpowered things to beat people for... idk bragging rights?

In general though most things considered bad for duels are defensive things, mainly because 2 very offensive builds played well can have very long fights, and playing unnecessarily defensive can elongate a duel against a player of a much lower skill level

-line of sight is dumb because it's very easy to forego offense wHicham can make you unkilla ale. In a duel with 2 determined people you would probably never die if a rock for Los in considered fair game

-immovable are generally considered bad for 1 because they are expensive and youd b considered trying a bit too hard. A mag dk pop immovable v my stamblade would leave me unable to stop his dot pressure. In reverse a magdk who cant cc my stamblade will stop his dots from doing enough damage to make me heal. The both of us downing the pots would b as I said, very defensive and long. Also ,landing, avoiding,quickly breaking and timing your cc with burst is considered a part of skilled gameplay. Any magsorc that blocks the moment I drop my incap I instantly have respect for in the way you would respect a basketball player perfectly timing a blocked shot

- skill/cp changes are my biggest pet peeve in dueling.I beat a magdk with an all bow build and he slots wings and wants to rematch, does that mean he's skilled? Imagine playing your friend in madden , but right before the game starts he knows your secondary is trash and he picks the best recievers and qb in the game , along with the best d line and lb to counter your good run game. Youd lose not because he is more skilled 9/10 but because he simply has the exact counter to your team, his team might be complete garbage against every other team in the league but yours.

Izaki

Fossilizing pets?! Does that really work? Sweet. @psychotic13 you're in trouble now, I'll rune prison your scamp! HA

psychotic13

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Fossilizing pets?! Does that really work? Sweet. @psychotic13 you're in trouble now, I'll rune prison your scamp! HA

Yeah this does work, I've already had the treatment of having the scamp rune prisoned haha.

fred4

ostrapz wrote: »

Alot of people don't take into account that you get to fully adjust your build in duels for a 1v1, which is often extremely diffrent from open world builds.

I don't do this; I play my open world build. My purpose in duelling is to find one build that covers a wide a variety of opponents.

In my mind a duel should try to reflect open world as much as possible.

As far as I'm concerned people can do what they want, but this is indeed what I do.

The reason some things are considered unsavory or unsportsmanlike in duels stems from this in my opinion. The fact you are fully prepared for a 1on1 should remove the need for alot of things.

I never thought about duels being different from other PvP in the beginning, and basically I still carry that mindset. In the first place you want to know whether you can beat other players at all. Still, to this day, I try to find solutions to beat players that I couldn't before, all the while sticking to, and refining, my one build.

Line of sight, immovable pots and skill/cp changes according to who you are fighting are not cool imo

Oh boy. We just differ totally. If someone wants to line of sight me, great, it's amusing. I'll try to find a solution. In my experience these are usually weaker players who can be killed. As I said, I've also had some of my most memorable fights against mages who jammed their mines into awkward places, between rocks. One of them ironically accused me of line of sighting afterwards, which was a result of where he placed his mines.

Immovable + Speed + Stamina pots are my staple, and one of the things people complain about. The problem I have is, you are curtailing build variety by ruling them out. Immovable pots are part of what makes my current build work. Let me share it:

2x Troll King
5x Leki
5x Viper
Forward Momentum instead of Rally.
No poisons. 1 proc set.

This is my open world build and the premise is that I keep alive through mobility and healing over time. I am, however, not very tanky and I lack a burst heal. Immovable pots are an integral part of that approach. They are not always necessary (although the speed is, when you don't have a gap closer on the DW front bar), but they are the only way I can deal with mag DKs with this build (good ones that is). I try to do damage, but when things get too hot, I escape. And, believe me, that Flame Lash 8m reach is not easy to get away from, even when they can't CC.

Aside from that, Immovable pots might as well be called extra strength stam regen pots. Having to break free less means you can spec for more damage in place of regen. My build takes that into account.

what is generally accepted as overpowered things onto your character.

According to who? The last time someone complained about my immovable pots, I announced in the chat I was using them. No replies. Only annoyance that I wasn't accepting someone's duelling request, while I was typing.

In a duel I generally view it as trying to improve your skill, not just throw on overpowered things to beat people

I don't know what other people do. Perhaps you can see that I don't pile on overpowered things on top of each other and I don't adjust my build between duels (with the exception of sometimes throwing on a heavy armor set, 7th Legion, in place of Leki).

immovable are generally considered bad for 1 because they are expensive and youd b considered trying a bit too hard.

Those are YOUR assumptions. For me, I want to understand how my build functions, against a mag. DK or stamblade for example, with the same potions that I use open world.

skill/cp changes are my biggest pet peeve in dueling.I beat a magdk with an all bow build and he slots wings and wants to rematch, does that mean he's skilled?

You are guessing that he wants a rematch out of hurt feelings. Some people just experiment. Or they have two totally different builds set up with Wykkyd Outfitter, or they bring a different character altogether. I find it can be very instructive to gauge different approaches against the same opponent.

olsborg

As long as there is no LoS abuse in a duel, id say anything goes. Well except my personal preference, no proccsets, no malubeth/trollking.
That said, I havent dueled in a good long while because 9 out of 10 ppl use dueling builds. I myself prefer to have one build to counter most if not all situation that may arise in open world cyrodiil while im 1vXing. Such a build does not excel vs a specific duel build thats tailored to dealing with 1 single oponent, sure I might win those fights too, but its biased against me. But the main reason I dont duel is because of viper, heavy armor OPness and other proccshits.

UppGRAYxDD

Bro you will never know salty till you beat all the "I can kill anyone cause of talons and fossilize on my MagDK" folk while running 5 storm knight, 5 overwhelming surge, and 2 skoria on a HA magplar.

Waffennacht

So had a duel, opponent could not kill me, he would los to extend battle (annoying at first) after 15 min of this I got sick of it.

Wanna know a really annoying LoS counter?

Stealth

Went into crouch and hid behind a crate, he eventually forfeited the match.

One good annoyance deserves another

bg22

The first rule of Duel Club... is we don't talk about Duel Club.

Volrion

Rataroto wrote: »

I take on everyone that wants a fair fight. if you line of sight, I'll either use the time to recover myself, i'll persue you, or poke u from a distance, as long as you don't just chicken away to end the duel and avoid diying, i'm ok with everything. A duel is a duel.

The most crying I get is for using eternal hunt and sometimes i get whispers: "I was in pve gear and skills you ****", for those peeps i give the usual GG

it stands for Get Gud

Haha I was dueling 561 characters with my 510cp the other night.

Of course, most people accept because they see me as a low cp scrub.

The amount of "I was in PVE gear" whispers I'd get after I'd won the duel was laughable.

GG indeed

Kutsuu

SourishWhale wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

I take on everyone that wants a fair fight. if you line of sight, I'll either use the time to recover myself, i'll persue you, or poke u from a distance, as long as you don't just chicken away to end the duel and avoid diying, i'm ok with everything. A duel is a duel.

The most crying I get is for using eternal hunt and sometimes i get whispers: "I was in pve gear and skills you ****", for those peeps i give the usual GG

it stands for Get Gud

Haha I was dueling 561 characters with my 510cp the other night.

Of course, most people accept because they see me as a low cp scrub.

The amount of "I was in PVE gear" whispers I'd get after I'd won the duel was laughable.

GG indeed

I doubt that's the case when you are only 50 CPs from cap. People will make excuses to anyone who beats them.

ManDraKE

SourishWhale wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

I take on everyone that wants a fair fight. if you line of sight, I'll either use the time to recover myself, i'll persue you, or poke u from a distance, as long as you don't just chicken away to end the duel and avoid diying, i'm ok with everything. A duel is a duel.

The most crying I get is for using eternal hunt and sometimes i get whispers: "I was in pve gear and skills you ****", for those peeps i give the usual GG

it stands for Get Gud

Haha I was dueling 561 characters with my 510cp the other night.

Of course, most people accept because they see me as a low cp scrub.

The amount of "I was in PVE gear" whispers I'd get after I'd won the duel was laughable.

GG indeed

Well, if you are one of those dudes sending duel request next to the undaunted quest npc, is probably true.

Jjitsuboy98

Kutsuu wrote: »

SourishWhale wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

I take on everyone that wants a fair fight. if you line of sight, I'll either use the time to recover myself, i'll persue you, or poke u from a distance, as long as you don't just chicken away to end the duel and avoid diying, i'm ok with everything. A duel is a duel.

The most crying I get is for using eternal hunt and sometimes i get whispers: "I was in pve gear and skills you ****", for those peeps i give the usual GG

it stands for Get Gud

Haha I was dueling 561 characters with my 510cp the other night.

Of course, most people accept because they see me as a low cp scrub.

The amount of "I was in PVE gear" whispers I'd get after I'd won the duel was laughable.

GG indeed

I doubt that's the case when you are only 50 CPs from cap. People will make excuses to anyone who beats them.

How much difference does say 80-100 cp actually make?

Kutsuu

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

SourishWhale wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

I take on everyone that wants a fair fight. if you line of sight, I'll either use the time to recover myself, i'll persue you, or poke u from a distance, as long as you don't just chicken away to end the duel and avoid diying, i'm ok with everything. A duel is a duel.

The most crying I get is for using eternal hunt and sometimes i get whispers: "I was in pve gear and skills you ****", for those peeps i give the usual GG

it stands for Get Gud

Haha I was dueling 561 characters with my 510cp the other night.

Of course, most people accept because they see me as a low cp scrub.

The amount of "I was in PVE gear" whispers I'd get after I'd won the duel was laughable.

GG indeed

I doubt that's the case when you are only 50 CPs from cap. People will make excuses to anyone who beats them.

How much difference does say 80-100 cp actually make?

IMO with diminishing returns on CPs, not too terribly much. Personally I've been dueling since I hit ~350 CPs or so and am only at 510 now. I don't lose because of CPs, just skill/build disparity.