Procs are winning the game - needs to be changed!

Baphomet

Yes, I am sure there are already a lot a threads about this, but it bloody well deserves another one.

Please @ZOS, give us back a skill-based and competitive game again instead of one where success depends on arbitrary luck.

When you can deal 10-20 k of dmg on "impact" with proc sets, someone needs to get laid off.

I am very sure, I do not need to go into detail about how poorly implemented all these new sets are and how bad the math behind them is - just correct the blunder quickly and let everybody forget about this horrible screw-up.

Sigtric

Rohamad_Ali

HoloYoitsu

InB4 the proctatos come in here with the 'L2P' garbage.

acw37162

Except viper has been around a long time. Tis not a new set.

Edit:

I'm pretty sure I don't need to go into detail about PVP players complaining because they die in PVP. Once proc sets are sufficiently squashed into worthlessness prople will focus all their attention on eye of the storm.

And after that; it will be something else.

Don't get all bent out of shape and blow your load here thre months from now you will be pissed about something else.

HoloYoitsu

acw37162 wrote: »

Except viper has been around a long time. Tis not a new set.

Proc sets being available in jewelry & weps is the new feature. Allowing them to be stackable is what has left pvp in a vegetative state.

Allow me to educate you:

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Viper was actually buffed by 400% when shadows of the hist came out. It used to deal 1.5k and was useless compared to hundings (before shadow of the hist). Before one tamriel hit and shadows of the hist came out it got popular since you could scale down trials and obtain it easily. Its even easier now that its in a dungeon because of one tamriel. Also daggers sharpend drop from the 2nd boss in F.G.2 which makes running 5/5/2 builds even easier again.

Viper was handed out to everyone basically.

Rohamad_Ali

The OP is right but we do have a few dozen threads . I'm just frustrated at the lack of conversation from the Devs . Teasers and catch phrases only keep patient people calm for so long . I want my friends to return and to get back to pvping with them . If we knew exactly when and what balance adjustments were coming it could of enticed them to return early in preparation ...

XoxHANNIBALxoX

.

XoxHANNIBALxoX

2 Vipers, 1 suprise, 1 Heavy and finished by a Velidreth.
WooHoo yeah i know i need to L2P lol

Greenwood1900

1. Sets that procs from attacks shouldn't proc from stealth attacks.

2. It should not be possible to bypass/reset proc cooldown (for example double Viper).

3. IMO: there should be a fixed global cooldown. When a set procs, all the procs that the player is wearing are disabled for 6 seconds. This can be Cyrodiil only.

MaxTM

Just to throw this in:
In the current PvP (I play TF, EU) I love proc sets. Why?
-> EASY! Because that night blade who wants to bomb me and my friends will get all procs in his face the second he wants to use his eye of flame + proximity deto. Basically it's the only way to prevent destro-ultimate running monkeys from having too much fun.

rteezy

im a new player, and i have yet to even reach rank 6 in pvp, BUT i do bring alot of pvp exp form other mmos and my opinion is that proc sets per se are NOT bad. They provide the game some depth when it comes to gearing/building your toon providing different options/procs to build around (or so it should )

The problem is when mmo devs give procs(from abilities/gear/consumables etc) effects too strong for the level of player input required.
What i mean is, in mmo pvp the game should ALWAYS lean towards player input, skill caps and skill ceiling for that player to succeed(taking into account that the very "rock/paper/scissors" nature of mmos makes it impossible to EVER achieve a perfect balance EVEN if the design greatly enhances those factors).
So, procs are not bad WHEN the rewards vs risk vs effort are balanced.For example, a certain ability/gear set can provide a VERY strong proc BUT too achieve it the player HAS to "outplay" the circumstances.On the other hand, a weaker (yet still beneficial) proc, shouldn't require that much player input too achieve (for example weapon poisons).

So, yes, procs are extremely unbalanced as they are, since they reward a VERY minimal(if any in some cases) player input.
Someone can literally get a kill because viper and Veli procced, and all they had to do was press lmb once.That requires Zero coordination, awareness, skill, knowledge or anything form the player for that matter other then a subtle finger movement.Obviously good players take an even greater advantage of it because their gameplay maximizes the use of the procs("cough cough" as if necessary), but subpar players GREATLY benefit from this kind of design and one thing i learned after years of high rated competitive pvp, designing/balancing the game around the "casual" player has TERRIBLE consequences for the game

PVP SHOULD be fun for everyone, including the less skilled players, but for it to be GOOD it has to provide DEPTH to the player input so the skillcap AND ceiling can always be raised, and that is only achievable with a design that DOES NOT revolve around simplifying gameplay (cough cough WOW LEgion...)


There are some very easy ways to tell if something is "balanced" and provides depth to the game.For example, could a BOT kill a decent player? Under regular circumstances probably not, but if there is a REMOTE chance that a BOT can get all his procs and in a stroke of luck one shot a good player, then your answer is : THE DESIGN IS BAD

Again, PROCS are not bad, they offer depth to the overall game play, BUT if a proc is strong the player input has to be even greater.How? make it extremely hard for the proc to happen.NOT ONLY with proc chance % but by adding conditions thjat woudl require a greater player awareness, mechanical skill and a deeper overall class and game knowledge.
ALSO, and i forgot to mention it, the STRONGER THE PROC IS THE EASIER IT SHOULD BE TO COUNTER IT AND AVOID IT, raising the skillcap on both ends.


TLDR-procs are not bad, they offer depth to the game, BUT they need to offer a better balance between player iinput required, "counter-ability" and proc effect.

Darius771

Procs sets are ok for Tankers Scrolls Online.

you tell about proc sets, but about imortals templars healing full hp with one skill (while debuffed with major defile), and they do a lot of damage even if they are build tanker.

nightblade have no place to open pvp while build a tanker does more benefits than dps.
All they have to do is stay in the shadows and enjoy proc sets.

Conclusion: Everything in this pvp makes it broken.

HoloYoitsu

Darius771 wrote: »

Procs sets are ok for Tankers Scrolls Online.

you tell about proc sets, but about imortals templars healing full hp with one skill (while debuffed with major defile), and they do a lot of damage even if they are build tanker.

nightblade have no place to open pvp while build a tanker does more benefits than dps.
All they have to do is stay in the shadows and enjoy proc sets.

Conclusion: I walk up and pop Blazing Shields mindlessly till I die.

Fix'd.

Paraflex

They know it's a problem and are working on a fix the real issue is the length of time they take to fix stuff. It's been like 5 months with this garbage in the game and won't get a patch until feb 2017

geonsocal

personally, I'd like to see a 20 second cool down on procs...heck, I got to wait 10 minutes to use my Phoenix again - folks can wait 20 seconds to use one of their proc sets they've equipped...

having that 20 second cool down on procs per player will help balance out their damage done.

FearlessOne_2014

Baphomet wrote: »

Yes, I am sure there are already a lot a threads about this, but it bloody well deserves another one.

Please @ZOS, give us back a skill-based and competitive game again instead of one where success depends on arbitrary luck.

When you can deal 10-20 k of dmg on "impact" with proc sets, someone needs to get laid off.

I am very sure, I do not need to go into detail about how poorly implemented all these new sets are and how bad the math behind them is - just correct the blunder quickly and let everybody forget about this horrible screw-up.

What you and everyone one else don't or refuse to comprehend is that the Stam-Proc-Meta more then likely boosted ZOSes sales by alot. For every stud ZOS lost over the Proc Meta ZOS more then likely gained 3 non competitive potatoes in their place.

It's like Eve Online which potato players got farmed, laughed at, and discarded [Oh the glory days] the game sat at around 30k players at peek hours. Now that Eve Online started going to the potatoes more vet quit the game in mass and more potato players have started to play it. It's what currently makes the MMO genre successful. Sadly competitive PvP in MMO these days does not provide much of a bottom line.

MalakithAlamahdi

XoxHANNIBALxoX wrote: »

2 Vipers, 1 suprise, 1 Heavy and finished by a Velidreth.
WooHoo yeah i know i need to L2P lol

That moment when the proc hits at least 1.5k more than any actual skill.

Vaoh

acw37162 wrote: »

Except viper has been around a long time. Tis not a new set.

Edit:

I'm pretty sure I don't need to go into detail about PVP players complaining because they die in PVP. Once proc sets are sufficiently squashed into worthlessness prople will focus all their attention on eye of the storm.

And after that; it will be something else.

Don't get all bent out of shape and blow your load here thre months from now you will be pissed about something else.

Well this was a stupid post you've made. You're highly uninformed yet you talk like a big shot.

Some facts for you:
• The population of PvP is at an all-time low.
• The atmosphere is more toxic than ever.
• *Viper was always a proc set, but was given the massive and uncalled for buff of a roughly 500% damage increase in Dark Brotherhood. *
• Eye of the Storm was given a 100% damage buff per tick on PTS with a 4sec duration reduction.
• Imperial City was given those fantastic Alchemy satchels (Waxed Apothecary's Parcels), yet it is still unbelievably empty due to the lack of a decent-sized PvP population altogether.

Most of ZOS's horrible balance decisions are created this way.

When something is too strong, it is either left as is or nerfed into the ground.

When something is a bit too weak, it is very often buffed far too much and made OP.

When something is way too weak (many, many sets as well as skills like Fire Rune/Trapping Webs), it is often left untouched or shockingly further nerfed.

When something is fine as is, it is either buffed or nerfed in order to cause new issues (best shown through Viper's Sting getting a 500% damage buff and Soul Strike's huge One Tamriel buffs).

---

These complaints regarding proc sets (as well as Soul Strike/Eye of the Storm) are more than justified. They come from knowledgeable players telling ZOS to fix their game while the majority of players simply quit.

PvP is dying more and more each day. Just two days ago on PS4 NA, a friend of mine who is both a Dro'mathra Destroyer and a Grand Overlord quit PvP altogether until it is balanced. The guild he created is disbanding as well, and many players are like-minded.

Don't complain about legitamate complaints. Inform yourself before making a post like that which makes you out as an idiot. It gets in the way of real progress toward fixing this game.

kuro-dono

how mmos should work> potatoes play with potatoes and pros play with pros. that would keep everyone happy.

outsideworld76

Viper seems to proc double a lot. The number of recaps showing double Viper in combination with Velidreth is uncountable.

Viper cooldown is bugged just as Velidreth proc change.

Docmandu

Vaoh wrote: »

• Imperial City was given those fantastic Alchemy satchels (Waxed Apothecary's Parcels), yet it is still unbelievably empty due to the lack of a decent-sized PvP population altogether.

It's empty because it's NB ganker heaven.. and the fact that there's a mob every 2 steps that will add-in on your PvP fight (which again favours the NB that can just stealth and get rid of the aggro).

iotw still too many mobs and too many gank blades in IC... with little or no room to have a proper fight.

Vaoh

Docmandu wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

• Imperial City was given those fantastic Alchemy satchels (Waxed Apothecary's Parcels), yet it is still unbelievably empty due to the lack of a decent-sized PvP population altogether.

It's empty because it's NB ganker heaven.. and the fact that there's a mob every 2 steps that will add-in on your PvP fight (which again favours the NB that can just stealth and get rid of the aggro).

iotw still too many mobs and too many gank blades in IC... with little or no room to have a proper fight.

It used to be a great place for solo and small group with no lag.

You only notice the gankblades because there are only two types of players left in IC - Tel Var stone farmers and gankers (trying to kill the Tel Var stone farmers)

There isn't enough population left even on the fullest campaign for enough players to bother going into IC. They're busy zerging together in Cyrodiil due to the numerous measures set in place to ball players together as much as possible.

It's an issue that extends well beyond IC. PvP truly is starting to die. I really hope ZoS fixes it.

PS4 NA has one full campaign (Scourge) and one half full campaign (Haderus) during prime time. A few random bars scatter across 1-2 other campaigns.

In Shadows of the Hist, there were still 2 full campaigns and other half full/low-pop campaigns

Wreuntzylla

The problem isn't stacking proc sets, it's stacking proc sets and a regen set. In other words, adding proc 2pc undaunted sets is the issue. You can build to survive the procs but a good build with high regen means seeing procs every time the timer is up. Without regen, the proc build is dead if you survive the opener.

Ganj

Not only winning, its also killing the game.

Hawco10

Proccs aren't winning the game. Usually the stuff like viper, veildreith etc makes up about 4-6k damage a pop. It's the destro ult that's doing the real damage in this game. Eye of flame for 29k+
And it's the usual suspects doing it(on the console anyway) so yes, the procs hurt, but I think the destro ult is the real game changer in this context.
No I don't have a procc set believe it or not.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Vaoh wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Except viper has been around a long time. Tis not a new set.

Edit:

I'm pretty sure I don't need to go into detail about PVP players complaining because they die in PVP. Once proc sets are sufficiently squashed into worthlessness prople will focus all their attention on eye of the storm.

And after that; it will be something else.

Don't get all bent out of shape and blow your load here thre months from now you will be pissed about something else.

Well this was a stupid post you've made. You're highly uninformed yet you talk like a big shot.

Some facts for you:
• The population of PvP is at an all-time low.
• The atmosphere is more toxic than ever.
• *Viper was always a proc set, but was given the massive and uncalled for buff of a roughly 500% damage increase in Dark Brotherhood. *
• Eye of the Storm was given a 100% damage buff per tick on PTS with a 4sec duration reduction.
• Imperial City was given those fantastic Alchemy satchels (Waxed Apothecary's Parcels), yet it is still unbelievably empty due to the lack of a decent-sized PvP population altogether.

Most of ZOS's horrible balance decisions are created this way.

When something is too strong, it is either left as is or nerfed into the ground.

When something is a bit too weak, it is very often buffed far too much and made OP.

When something is way too weak (many, many sets as well as skills like Fire Rune/Trapping Webs), it is often left untouched or shockingly further nerfed.

When something is fine as is, it is either buffed or nerfed in order to cause new issues (best shown through Viper's Sting getting a 500% damage buff and Soul Strike's huge One Tamriel buffs).

---

These complaints regarding proc sets (as well as Soul Strike/Eye of the Storm) are more than justified. They come from knowledgeable players telling ZOS to fix their game while the majority of players simply quit.

PvP is dying more and more each day. Just two days ago on PS4 NA, a friend of mine who is both a Dro'mathra Destroyer and a Grand Overlord quit PvP altogether until it is balanced. The guild he created is disbanding as well, and many players are like-minded.

Don't complain about legitamate complaints. Inform yourself before making a post like that which makes you out as an idiot. It gets in the way of real progress toward fixing this game.

That's funny because console, you know, that thing that's always gonna die out, has 50 to 100 person queue times every night of the week. But hey, you got that one friend who quit. Sky = falling for sure.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Hawco10 wrote: »

Proccs aren't winning the game. Usually the stuff like viper, veildreith etc makes up about 4-6k damage a pop. It's the destro ult that's doing the real damage in this game. Eye of flame for 29k+
And it's the usual suspects doing it(on the console anyway) so yes, the procs hurt, but I think the destro ult is the real game changer in this context.
No I don't have a procc set believe it or not.

Funny thing about procs. I used to be really good at PVP. Then around August I got really bad at it. Now I'm running a poison proc set on a Magplar and I'm really good again.

Just grab one, strap it on and balance will be restored to the force ... just not the game.

Side note: I wonder how many super awesome players from a year ago who now complain don't realize that the population of max CP players has exploded? Maybe ... just maybe ... the people with full time jobs have caught up and ... maybe ... some of the first max CP players weren't at super leet skilled brah as they thought?

olsborg

Wrobel and Co are pretty useless. If I was in charge Id fire him and his team and hire someone who understood the game, the pvp and could actually balance it.

MaximillianDiE

As has already said - one proc set is manageable - its the ability to stack 2 or 3 + poisons that needs to be dealt with. You wouldn't think that it would be too hard to put a GCD on procs/poisons without removing proc sets from the game altogether.

Biro123

Didn't Zos state around their upcoming balance patch that they wanted to get away from the idea of stacking everything into one stat and making health more useful?

I'm wondering if proc sets are a clumsy way of trying to push that - trying to encourage people to build in more health to survive the burst - and by doing that, you lose max stam or mag - but it doesn't hit your damage *too* much if you're using procs.