Discussion about Stamina & Magika balance

Stamden

A lot of the time on this forum, you will run into people making statements such as "ZoS needs to buff magika". This is issue is much more complex than it might sound.

The problem with balancing magika is that the gap between magika classes varies greatly. Whereas with Stamina, all of the classes are more the same. This is due to most stamina abilities being all-class abilities, and most magika abilities being class-locked abilities. Most stamina builds have many similarities with each other. Shuffle, rally, vigor, proc sets, etc- stamina builds all share these common traits. While magika builds share do not share so many common denominators.

Here just an example to help demonstrate this idea. This is using theoretical numbers to represent what current balance might look like, so do not take this example at face value.

Let's say we put each build on a scale from 1-10. Since all the stamina builds are so similar, they all have relatively similar levels in terms of balance. So our list may look like:

Stam Builds - 6/10
Mag Sorc - 6/10
Mag NB - 5/10
Mag Templar - 5/10
Mag DK - 4/10

3 of the 4 magika classes are clearly underperforming. If Zenimax gives a general buff to magika classes (lets assign this value to +2), our list may look like:

Stam Builds - 6/10
Mag Sorc - 8/10
Mag NB - 7/10
Mag Templar - 7/10
Mag DK - 6/10

Great, now mag DKs are brought back in line with stamina builds. However, mag Sorcs are now massively overperforming. As I'm sure most of you would agree, this is not better then the earlier situation. This is the type of result that would be expected if magika was to get a flat buff. The gap between magika classes makes it impossible to truely try to balance all the builds. Before a general magika can be applied, the gap between magika classes needs to be lessened. Unfortunately, this is extreme difficult to do. So when considering magika vs stamina build balance, the safest option for Zenimax is to balance the best magika class with all the other stamina builds, and leave the other magika builds in the dust.

I just wanted to address the notion that Zenimax should simply "buff magika" and demonstrate that it is not as simple as it might sound.

AzuraKin

i think you are in the classic lets look at each class individually rather then lets look at how the classes work together. just cause class 1 is weaker in a duel over class b doesnt make class 1 underperforming to class b. there more to performance then just numbers one can pull.

Cinbri

AzuraKin wrote: »

i think you are in the classic lets look at each class individually rather then lets look at how the classes work together. just cause class 1 is weaker in a duel over class b doesnt make class 1 underperforming to class b. there more to performance then just numbers one can pull.

This is excuse that people making for zerging. If you think that one class should outperform another in 1v1 you will never reach competitive content, at least in pvp. Stack as tight as possible, spam 2-3 skills and pretend that everything is fine as other people will save you anyway - that is the reason and cause why people love it, but it will never uncover true problems.

AzuraKin

excuse? dude only time you will see me in a zerg, is if some other guild/group decides to hit the same keep as group i am with. this game isnt split into 2 formats ganking and zerging, it has many layers. you have the following:

ganking (stealther focused on taking out soft targets)
team ganking (2-4 players focused on taking out soft targets and small groups)
dueling (face to face 1v1)
skirmish party (2-~12 attacking resources, other small groups, tagging keeps)
raid party (8-24 takes keeps, scrolls, defends keeps ect)
zerg (25+ when 2 or more groups team up for the same objective)

RinaldoGandolphi

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Kutsuu

AzuraKin wrote: »

i think you are in the classic lets look at each class individually rather then lets look at how the classes work together. just cause class 1 is weaker in a duel over class b doesnt make class 1 underperforming to class b. there more to performance then just numbers one can pull.

If we're going to get into how they work together in groups - let's say you're building the optimal setup for group pvp. When it comes to your DPS, why would you want a stamina proc set user that can only kill 1 person at a time when you can have an EOTS bomber who can wipe whole groups at a time and still has single target burst from range so they can stay in the stack? Magicka builds also make the best healers, so you don't need stamina builds for that role either.

Stamina's strengths start to fade when you get past small scale engagements - but then we consider that so many of the Magicka builds are extremely strong in 1v1 encounters. Nobody wants to duel a mDK or a magsorc who knows what they're doing on a meta stam build because they are going to get their faces melted. A good magblade is going to walk away from any 1v1 that they want to, and a good magplar isn't going to die in a 1v1.

So in what cases, really, is stamina overpowered? I'm asking this as an honest question because I'm just not seeing it. My point here really has nothing to do with OP's post. It's that Magicka builds make more impact on group pvp than stamina builds, but yet we're about to balance them in the upward direction while simultaneously nerfing stamina in the next update. To be clear I'm not saying Magicka needs a nerf, I am simply saying that the big picture doesn't favor stamina

In regard to OP's post, you're wrong about stamina builds all being on the same level. While class skills don't always make up the spammable damage abilities on the main bar, class skills do greatly impact the outcome of a stamina build. There are big differences between the performance of stamina builds in the various segments of pvp - Example: You'll find it harder to Xv1 out in the open on a NB than you will on the other classes, but NB makes the optimal ganker.

Alucardo

I don't actually feel like there's a huge imbalance between the two, or even classes. The main problem is there's a wider variety of good sets for stam. One tamriel closed that gap slightly with the introduction of things like Spinners, Grothdarr, Ilambris, buffing Skoria, but while proc sets are still a thing, stamina will have the upper hand.
There's also Shuffle. Even as a stamina player I feel like that skill outperforms shields sometimes. RNG dodging shouldn't exist, sorry. I refuse to use it, because if I win a fight, I don't want it to be because I was lucky enough to randomly dodge 4 attacks in a row.
Change Shuffle so it gives you better access to avoiding snares and no dodge chance, remove proc sets and you'll see that gap closed even more.

Kutsuu

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't actually feel like there's a huge imbalance between the two, or even classes. The main problem is there's a wider variety of good sets for stam. One tamriel closed that gap slightly with the introduction of things like Spinners, Grothdarr, Ilambris, buffing Skoria, but while proc sets are still a thing, stamina will have the upper hand.
There's also Shuffle. Even as a stamina player I feel like that skill outperforms shields sometimes. RNG dodging shouldn't exist, sorry. I refuse to use it, because if I win a fight, I don't want it to be because I was lucky enough to randomly dodge 4 attacks in a row.
Change Shuffle so it gives you better access to avoiding snares and no dodge chance, remove proc sets and you'll see that gap closed even more.

So your complaint is that major evasion is overpowered - let's not forget that anyone can slot that on their bar (and use it cheaply with unchained) and magNBs even have a magicka version of shuffle.

I would much rather see all defenses be active in this game. If it wasn't for it being so terribly laggy for its whole lifespan, I would have wanted Block to be directional also.

Alucardo

Kutsuu wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't actually feel like there's a huge imbalance between the two, or even classes. The main problem is there's a wider variety of good sets for stam. One tamriel closed that gap slightly with the introduction of things like Spinners, Grothdarr, Ilambris, buffing Skoria, but while proc sets are still a thing, stamina will have the upper hand.
There's also Shuffle. Even as a stamina player I feel like that skill outperforms shields sometimes. RNG dodging shouldn't exist, sorry. I refuse to use it, because if I win a fight, I don't want it to be because I was lucky enough to randomly dodge 4 attacks in a row.
Change Shuffle so it gives you better access to avoiding snares and no dodge chance, remove proc sets and you'll see that gap closed even more.

So your complaint is that major evasion is overpowered - let's not forget that anyone can slot that on their bar (and use it cheaply with unchained) and magNBs even have a magicka version of shuffle.

I would much rather see all defenses be active in this game. If it wasn't for it being so terribly laggy for its whole lifespan, I would have wanted Block to be directional also.

Pretty sure I added more than dodge chance in there. Stronger sets being one of them.

FENGRUSH

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

Kutsuu

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

It's also interesting to see someone like the person you quoted try out a stam build for the first time and come to the forums asking for advice on stamina management after realizing that yeah, your defenses infact do pull from the same pool as your heals and damage abilities, and that spamming them will empty it really fast.

Like Fengrush is asking for, I'd rather see individual tuning of abilities and sets than some major overhaul like they're hinting at for U13. Every time they do this it goes badly. Why can't they do incremental changes on a short schedule?

Lokey0024

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Kutsuu

Lokey0024 wrote: »

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Yeah Magicka classes definitely couldn't press Harness Magicka (or hardened on a sorc) every 4.5 seconds to get a similar amount of protection - keeping in mind that you can't crit shields so the value of a shield goes further than the value of a heal.

FENGRUSH

Kutsuu wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

It's also interesting to see someone like the person you quoted try out a stam build for the first time and come to the forums asking for advice on stamina management after realizing that yeah, your defenses infact do pull from the same pool as your heals and damage abilities, and that spamming them will empty it really fast.

Like Fengrush is asking for, I'd rather see individual tuning of abilities and sets than some major overhaul like they're hinting at for U13. Every time they do this it goes badly. Why can't they do incremental changes on a short schedule?

Incremental changes are what the game lacks - and its the biggest cause for despair in balance. We get sweeping changes and content additions that cover up issues and replace them with new ones.

Its getting brutal. All in all, stamina is a great solo/1vX setup - magicka is not built to function the same way, but can implement enough regen to sustain its stamina through fights - but not optimally when outnumbered. Stamina will disengage, magicka really cant.

When it comes to group play - magicka is outpacing stamina. I run small groups, and to do it optimally, I have 0 room for anything stam related. The only thing they are good for is working down extremely tanky builds more quickly than others... but magicka with destro ult will still do it better. Namely due to the fact that they can burn through block. But those targets generally dont matter much, they end up dying when you bust a new wave of players coming in.

Magicka and stamina will always bring different things to the table. The goal should be to have a vision where they bring a good variety while retaining balance from smaller to larger scale options. All in all, these issues go completely overlooked and are just painted over with new sets and new skills while trying to address the loudest concerns of the forum/community.

Knootewoot

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Indeed.

I think it is not magicka that needs a buff, but stamina that needs a nerf.

And there should be a separate bar called "fatique" or something that is used for
- dodge roll
- break free
- and perhaps sprinting/sneaking

As someone mentioned before, stamina is just another for of magic. The actions described above should be totally separate so any class build, whether stamina, magicka or stamicka have all the same pool to break free, dodge roll etc.

Kutsuu

@FENGRUSH I really wish more of the other streamers could be objective like you. I can only imagine what it would do for the game if the community leaders who influence large parts of the player base were having discussions like this instead of raging that the only reason they died in a 10v1 was proc sets.

Lokey0024

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Yeah Magicka classes definitely couldn't press Harness Magicka (or hardened on a sorc) every 4.5 seconds to get a similar amount of protection - keeping in mind that you can't crit shields so the value of a shield goes further than the value of a heal.

Hey @Kutsuu , math out vigor on a good set up and put it up against ward. No compairason unless its spammed like crazy

Alucardo

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Incremental changes are what the game lacks - and its the biggest cause for despair in balance. We get sweeping changes and content additions that cover up issues and replace them with new ones.

Nailed it, and I always thought the same thing. We get balance changes in such large gaps that they overcompensate when it comes to buffs, then we just have to live with it for months.
Smaller incremental changes would fix that, and there'd be far less despair because we'd know another balance tweak is just around the corner.

Kutsuu

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Yeah Magicka classes definitely couldn't press Harness Magicka (or hardened on a sorc) every 4.5 seconds to get a similar amount of protection - keeping in mind that you can't crit shields so the value of a shield goes further than the value of a heal.

Hey @Kutsuu , math out vigor on a good set up and put it up against ward. No compairason unless its spammed like crazy

Not everyone has access to major mending, and saying it requires Vitality pots rules out all the other pots like the ones your magicka build is open to use. I'm sure once you min/max your Vigor on one of the classes that actually can do that, it performs as well or better than shields... The point I'm trying to make is that both options are strong, and trying to compare a fully min/maxed Vigor that pigeonholes you into a specific potion to shields is the only way you're going to come out ahead.

AzuraKin

also

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

actually a better idea, is 1. make blocking drain resource based on type of damage blocked instead always stam, cc breaking fear cost magicka, give more options other then just dodge roll, sorc port, and nb shade port for getting out of bad situations.

Sylosi

Cinbri wrote: »

This is excuse that people making for zerging. If you think that one class should outperform another in 1v1 you will never reach competitive content, at least in pvp.

Erm, wrong on both fronts, firstly this game does not have any competitive PvP, it has RvR which is basically a joke as a competitive format, if you want competitive PvP than you are playing the wrong game and frankly the wrong genre (hint: games that "balance" for multiple game modes at once, that have gear, character "progression" that creates the opposite of a level playing field, take forever between balance patches and leave broken OP things in the game for 6 months, even a year+ etc are a joke competitively).

Secondly no you don't need 1v1 balance in a competitive game based on group play, MOBAs don't have any real 1v1 balance because heros/champs fulfil different roles as part of a team, yet they are a million times more competitive than a joke like ESO, and guess what ESO is a multiplayer game, based on people playing in groups (It is hilarious to watch certain streamers complain that the guys they are fighting have healers...), and that is what they should be balancing an RvR mode on, not people who claim they want competitive PvP, but choose to play an MMORPG instead of a fighting game, SC2, etc, but then those games actually take a bit of skill...

RinaldoGandolphi

Kutsuu wrote: »

It's also interesting to see someone like the person you quoted try out a stam build for the first time and come to the forums asking for advice on stamina management after realizing that yeah, your defenses infact do pull from the same pool as your heals and damage abilities, and that spamming them will empty it really fast.

Like Fengrush is asking for, I'd rather see individual tuning of abilities and sets than some major overhaul like they're hinting at for U13. Every time they do this it goes badly. Why can't they do incremental changes on a short schedule?

I have tried out stam...I converted my Dunmer Magic DK to Stam for a few weeks(before making him a PVE only toon), and it was easy mode compared to any Magicka Toon I have. Resource management on a magicka build is way harder then it is on a stam build...i never found myself running out of stam...but again...i had to learn to make due with a 9-10k stam pool with ....pulling multiple things from 1 resource is no big deal....

I was absolutely Annihilating people on a Stamina DK, I never had to ever worry about running out of Stamina unless i was fighting like 8 people....keeping a pot up with High Regen, Keeping Shuffle, Vigor, and Rally up and just unload on people with Dawnbreaker or Take Flight...while Poison Injection is ticking on the Target, using Igneous sheild for Major Mending, Defense, and Stam Return, Voltile Armor for 12% increased healing, you kidding me?

im very well versed in running stamina based builds. I find the playstyle is not to my liking, but i was very very effective on Stam DK...just stack Stam Regen, Weapon Damage, and Max stam as high as you can with Sharpened Weapons...its not rocket science....i prefer a fire approach to Dragonknights and i needed a PVe deciated toon anyways, and Magicka DK is great for PVE DPS so theres that.

Lokey0024

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Yeah Magicka classes definitely couldn't press Harness Magicka (or hardened on a sorc) every 4.5 seconds to get a similar amount of protection - keeping in mind that you can't crit shields so the value of a shield goes further than the value of a heal.

Hey @Kutsuu , math out vigor on a good set up and put it up against ward. No compairason unless its spammed like crazy

Not everyone has access to major mending, and saying it requires Vitality pots rules out all the other pots like the ones your magicka build is open to use. I'm sure once you min/max your Vigor on one of the classes that actually can do that, it performs as well or better than shields... The point I'm trying to make is that both options are strong, and trying to compare a fully min/maxed Vigor that pigeonholes you into a specific potion to shields is the only way you're going to come out ahead.

What you are really not getting is the healing available isnt close to even for Stam v Magika. Dont have mending? grind out malbeth. An option. Better yet, have mending? Use malbeth and get 6k vigor ticks. Combined with viper/black rose or widowmaker...

And how does my MDK HA user get shields of any noteworthy strength to use to substitute a lack of healing? On proc use abilities make up for this? Sorry, i got some irony in my soup.

Options. All im saying is if there are options, more diversity can happen. And incremental changes is the smartest thing said on here.

They have a PTS and a rabid fanbase. Quit using it as a showcase and use it to test ideas.

RinaldoGandolphi

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

@Fengrush In open world it is though.

Stamina is everything. You guys get root and snare immunity via Shuffle or Forward Momentum that is pretty cheap. Magicka Users get Purge which is ridiculously expensive in comparison and it doesn't make you immune to Roots and Snares...So i can purge a snare and be snared again, I can purge a root, and be rooted again...we got small stam pools...you know where this ends up.

Stamina can cast Shuffle and they get almost 4 seconds where they can't be rooted or snared again, and it costs way less then Purge, and its 20% dodge chance...couple this with High Amounts of Max Stam, Medium Armor reduction passives, High Stamina Recovery, A well fitted bonus(if you choose to use it)The Unchained CP bonus, you see where im going here.

Magicka users get a 80% reduction to the cost of their next spellafter drinking a potion with Foresight.

Stamina users get an 80% reduction in the cost of their stamina abilities for 3 seconds after breaking free with Unchained.

There is a divide here though, it may not be huge...but the ability to CC break significantly more then magic builds who have had their defenses chopped to the ground is a pretty sizeable advantage in small scale arrangements.

I'll pm you Fengrush I have an idea

Kutsuu

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Yeah Magicka classes definitely couldn't press Harness Magicka (or hardened on a sorc) every 4.5 seconds to get a similar amount of protection - keeping in mind that you can't crit shields so the value of a shield goes further than the value of a heal.

Hey @Kutsuu , math out vigor on a good set up and put it up against ward. No compairason unless its spammed like crazy

Not everyone has access to major mending, and saying it requires Vitality pots rules out all the other pots like the ones your magicka build is open to use. I'm sure once you min/max your Vigor on one of the classes that actually can do that, it performs as well or better than shields... The point I'm trying to make is that both options are strong, and trying to compare a fully min/maxed Vigor that pigeonholes you into a specific potion to shields is the only way you're going to come out ahead.

What you are really not getting is the healing available isnt close to even for Stam v Magika. Dont have mending? grind out malbeth. An option. Better yet, have mending? Use malbeth and get 6k vigor ticks. Combined with viper/black rose or widowmaker...

And how does my MDK HA user get shields of any noteworthy strength to use to substitute a lack of healing? On proc use abilities make up for this? Sorry, i got some irony in my soup.

Options. All im saying is if there are options, more diversity can happen. And incremental changes is the smartest thing said on here.

They have a PTS and a rabid fanbase. Quit using it as a showcase and use it to test ideas.

So a NB stam build (for example) is pigeonholed into Malubeth and viper/blackrose for your example to work out for them? Sounds legit. Gotta love that diversity.

Are you insinuating that Harness Magicka does not work when you are wearing heavy armor? I'm fairly certain there is no requirement to slot 5light or something in order to use that skill.

You might not have noticed it, but I mentioned my frustration with them not doing incremental changes quite a while ago in this thread. The other thing they don't seem capable of doing is admitting to mistakes and rolling them back when needed. They push out a messed up update then just give us the silent treatment until they make a wild series of nerfs/buffs that throws everything out of whack again.

Joy_Division

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

It's also interesting to see someone like the person you quoted try out a stam build for the first time and come to the forums asking for advice on stamina management after realizing that yeah, your defenses infact do pull from the same pool as your heals and damage abilities, and that spamming them will empty it really fast.

Like Fengrush is asking for, I'd rather see individual tuning of abilities and sets than some major overhaul like they're hinting at for U13. Every time they do this it goes badly. Why can't they do incremental changes on a short schedule?

Incremental changes are what the game lacks - and its the biggest cause for despair in balance. We get sweeping changes and content additions that cover up issues and replace them with new ones.

Its getting brutal. All in all, stamina is a great solo/1vX setup - magicka is not built to function the same way, but can implement enough regen to sustain its stamina through fights - but not optimally when outnumbered. Stamina will disengage, magicka really cant.

When it comes to group play - magicka is outpacing stamina. I run small groups, and to do it optimally, I have 0 room for anything stam related. The only thing they are good for is working down extremely tanky builds more quickly than others... but magicka with destro ult will still do it better. Namely due to the fact that they can burn through block. But those targets generally dont matter much, they end up dying when you bust a new wave of players coming in.

Magicka and stamina will always bring different things to the table. The goal should be to have a vision where they bring a good variety while retaining balance from smaller to larger scale options. All in all, these issues go completely overlooked and are just painted over with new sets and new skills while trying to address the loudest concerns of the forum/community.

Take out the Destro ult - like 90% of the community is calling for - and do you still feel the same way?

Just a few weeks ago, you shown in your tank video tactics centered on multi-dawnbreakers, which I would guess comes from stamina builds.

Now magicka gets a single new toy and all of a sudden magicka is bees knees?

I think magicka groups are strong simply because groups are strong. Being in a group allows your build to have weaknesses that other players can cover up, which is why magicka builds work with them. "Work" doesn't necessarily mean "better than stam." Nerf that destro-ult and I'd like to see your optimal group composition.

Kutsuu

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

It's also interesting to see someone like the person you quoted try out a stam build for the first time and come to the forums asking for advice on stamina management after realizing that yeah, your defenses infact do pull from the same pool as your heals and damage abilities, and that spamming them will empty it really fast.

Like Fengrush is asking for, I'd rather see individual tuning of abilities and sets than some major overhaul like they're hinting at for U13. Every time they do this it goes badly. Why can't they do incremental changes on a short schedule?

Incremental changes are what the game lacks - and its the biggest cause for despair in balance. We get sweeping changes and content additions that cover up issues and replace them with new ones.

Its getting brutal. All in all, stamina is a great solo/1vX setup - magicka is not built to function the same way, but can implement enough regen to sustain its stamina through fights - but not optimally when outnumbered. Stamina will disengage, magicka really cant.

When it comes to group play - magicka is outpacing stamina. I run small groups, and to do it optimally, I have 0 room for anything stam related. The only thing they are good for is working down extremely tanky builds more quickly than others... but magicka with destro ult will still do it better. Namely due to the fact that they can burn through block. But those targets generally dont matter much, they end up dying when you bust a new wave of players coming in.

Magicka and stamina will always bring different things to the table. The goal should be to have a vision where they bring a good variety while retaining balance from smaller to larger scale options. All in all, these issues go completely overlooked and are just painted over with new sets and new skills while trying to address the loudest concerns of the forum/community.

Take out the Destro ult - like 90% of the community is calling for - and do you still feel the same way?

Just a few weeks ago, you shown in your tank video tactics centered on multi-dawnbreakers, which I would guess comes from stamina builds.

Now magicka gets a single new toy and all of a sudden magicka is bees knees?

I think magicka groups are strong simply because groups are strong. Being in a group allows your build to have weaknesses that other players can cover up, which is why magicka builds work with them. "Work" doesn't necessarily mean "better than stam." Nerf that destro-ult and I'd like to see your optimal group composition.

Using Magicka builds for bomb groups was a thing long before destro ult. Most of the strong PBAOE ults do damage scaling on the magicka CP stars (Bat swarm, meteor, soul tether, even non-ult stuff like VD and Magicka detonation) - Dawnbreaker is a cone and not nearly as easy to hit a bunch of targets with, but it is undeniably strong. Steel Tornado is still great, but with the reduced radius is much closer in line with Magicka spammables.

I feel like it would do ZOS a lot of good to take the forums with a boatload of salt and just observe and test for themselves. Everyone here has bias, known or not (me included), and rarely do we have the best interests of the game in mind. If only they could adopt an incremental approach to balance and stop caving into these forum campaigns, we might reach a more comfortable state of balance one day.

Lokey0024

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

One thing alot of people dont talk about is the fact vigor+mending+vitality pots is hands down the strongest, best heal right now for the cost. With 10 points in blessed it out heals any amount of damage that can be thrown at it in the spam it is active. Watch any streamer worth anything in pvp and vigor has a 90% uptime. As they engage, vigor, take dmg,vigor, ult combo about to happen pool rally keep vigor up. Nothing magika comes close to utility. healing ward, when it works, is a good o$4!7 button but does not have the utility or immediate benefit from vitality pots or mending.


Vigor magika morph, gg.

Yeah Magicka classes definitely couldn't press Harness Magicka (or hardened on a sorc) every 4.5 seconds to get a similar amount of protection - keeping in mind that you can't crit shields so the value of a shield goes further than the value of a heal.

Hey @Kutsuu , math out vigor on a good set up and put it up against ward. No compairason unless its spammed like crazy

Not everyone has access to major mending, and saying it requires Vitality pots rules out all the other pots like the ones your magicka build is open to use. I'm sure once you min/max your Vigor on one of the classes that actually can do that, it performs as well or better than shields... The point I'm trying to make is that both options are strong, and trying to compare a fully min/maxed Vigor that pigeonholes you into a specific potion to shields is the only way you're going to come out ahead.

What you are really not getting is the healing available isnt close to even for Stam v Magika. Dont have mending? grind out malbeth. An option. Better yet, have mending? Use malbeth and get 6k vigor ticks. Combined with viper/black rose or widowmaker...

And how does my MDK HA user get shields of any noteworthy strength to use to substitute a lack of healing? On proc use abilities make up for this? Sorry, i got some irony in my soup.

Options. All im saying is if there are options, more diversity can happen. And incremental changes is the smartest thing said on here.

They have a PTS and a rabid fanbase. Quit using it as a showcase and use it to test ideas.

So a NB stam build (for example) is pigeonholed into Malubeth and viper/blackrose for your example to work out for them? Sounds legit. Gotta love that diversity.

Are you insinuating that Harness Magicka does not work when you are wearing heavy armor? I'm fairly certain there is no requirement to slot 5light or something in order to use that skill.

You might not have noticed it, but I mentioned my frustration with them not doing incremental changes quite a while ago in this thread. The other thing they don't seem capable of doing is admitting to mistakes and rolling them back when needed. They push out a messed up update then just give us the silent treatment until they make a wild series of nerfs/buffs that throws everything out of whack again.

Stamblade has higher weapon dmg and a crit mod that effects healing. And the best defensive ability in game (when it's working as intended) and yea hardend ward is good with HA users, but thats niche', not the standard.

Fully on board with the silent treatment and underutilized pts server, like i said its more of a showcase then a PTS. Test the big changes out on that little bit at a time and do revisions from there.

Still love the game but its getting kinda weak being hit by 2 people for 30k in less then a second. Goes for either magika or stamina.

Minalan

Neighbor wrote: »

A lot of the time on this forum, you will run into people making statements such as "ZoS needs to buff magika". This is issue is much more complex than it might sound.

The problem with balancing magika is that the gap between magika classes varies greatly. Whereas with Stamina, all of the classes are more the same. This is due to most stamina abilities being all-class abilities, and most magika abilities being class-locked abilities. Most stamina builds have many similarities with each other. Shuffle, rally, vigor, proc sets, etc- stamina builds all share these common traits. While magika builds share do not share so many common denominators.

Here just an example to help demonstrate this idea. This is using theoretical numbers to represent what current balance might look like, so do not take this example at face value.

Let's say we put each build on a scale from 1-10. Since all the stamina builds are so similar, they all have relatively similar levels in terms of balance. So our list may look like:

Stam Builds - 6/10
Mag Sorc - 6/10
Mag NB - 5/10
Mag Templar - 5/10
Mag DK - 4/10

3 of the 4 magika classes are clearly underperforming. If Zenimax gives a general buff to magika classes (lets assign this value to +2), our list may look like:

Stam Builds - 6/10
Mag Sorc - 8/10
Mag NB - 7/10
Mag Templar - 7/10
Mag DK - 6/10

Great, now mag DKs are brought back in line with stamina builds. However, mag Sorcs are now massively overperforming. As I'm sure most of you would agree, this is not better then the earlier situation. This is the type of result that would be expected if magika was to get a flat buff. The gap between magika classes makes it impossible to truely try to balance all the builds. Before a general magika can be applied, the gap between magika classes needs to be lessened. Unfortunately, this is extreme difficult to do. So when considering magika vs stamina build balance, the safest option for Zenimax is to balance the best magika class with all the other stamina builds, and leave the other magika builds in the dust.

I just wanted to address the notion that Zenimax should simply "buff magika" and demonstrate that it is not as simple as it might sound.

Stopped reading when you gave a magplar a lower score than a Sorc, and that a mag sorc is equal to a stam build.

This thread fails to deliver.

Waffennacht

I hate it that people are OK with classes that can't compete 1v1
You know that year of playing to get your toon to 561?

Yeah well it's worthless in your preferred play style...

Reroll...
Smh

FENGRUSH

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issue between magic builds and stamina builds is not about buffing one or the other. The issue lies WITH STAMINA and how it is used in the game system overall.

Right now, Stamina is used to:

[*] Dodge roll
[*] Break Free
[*] Sprint
[*] Stamina Skills
[*] Block


With the 2 Bolded being the problem.

As we all know, this game is completely designed around CC to kill....its what it is...Outside of a group setting(anything works in a zerg) Magic Builds are at a disadvantage because they can't break CC as often as Stam builds can.

Prior to the Shield Nerf, Mag Sorcs were able to mask this clear cut design flaw by stacking shields which made up for them not being able to CC break 15 or 16 times like Stamina Builds can(Thanks Unchained) while still dealing damage.Magic Templars are only on par with Stamina right now because their Synergy with Heavy Armor and Healing Class skill lines allow them to use healing(Much like Mag Sorcs used Shields) to mask the game design flaw of Mag builds being unable to CC break on cooldown perpetually like stamina can.

Do you know all Stamina based Class abilities are 20% cheaper then their magic counterparts and also do more damage?

Do you know every Stamina based Weapon in the game has a 20% cost reduction passive? where is any magic weapon cost reduction?

Right now Stamina Builds get all of the benefits of hybrid builds(high damage, sustain, and survivability) without any of the penalties or drawbacks.

If your a Stamina Nightblade, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Cloak
• Shadow Image
• Double Take
• Fear

If your a Stamina Dragonknight, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Volatile Armor
• Igneous Shield
• Reflective Scales
• Fossilize

If your a Stamina Templar, you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Sun Shield
• Restoring Aura
• Rune Focus
• Cleansing ritual

If your a Stamina Sorc you can stack EVERYTHING into Stamina and still use the following skills without penalty or loss of effectiveness:

• Bolt Escape
• Dark Deal
• Surge
• Encase
• Rune Prison

Furthermore, Running out of Magicka is NEVER a cause of concern or death to a Stamina build...as long as they have stamina they don't die.

If a Magicka user runs out of either resource they are dead.....

Furthermore, a Magic user even casts Retreating Manauvers once his whole stam bar is mostly gone leaving him vulnerable to being CC and killed....a Stam user can spam magicka till the cows come home it will rarely get them killed.

Simply put, the 1st step towards balancing Magicka and Stamina is removing Dodge Roll and Break Free being dependent on Stamina. There needs to be a 4th resource that determines how much you can dodge or break free, and its value needs to be based on your Max health...the more Max Health you have, the more times you can dodge and break free. Health still remains its own independent pool and of course it doesn't cost you health to dodge,

it will just be another resource bar like your Horse endurance bar, the difference is the value of that endurance bar will be based on how much your max health is, and the only way to increase it is too increase your max health forcing both magicka and stamina builds to sacrifice damage(and shields) in return for the ability to dodge, block, or break free more...This is the 1st step to balancing these things.

Lasty, the Unchained passive just needs to be changed...its grossly OP...

RNG dodge chance(like Shuffle) needs to be reworked....i would suggest changing Shuffe to a Stamina Based Damage Shield skill

1 Morph increases Value and Duration
2nd Morph absorbs damage converting it to stamina(A stamina Version of Harness Magicka)

RNG dodge chance is just as bad as RNG damage procs for a healthy pvp environment.

Magicka and stam divide isnt really what youre making it out to be here. Youre also suggesting they institute something huge to CC break system which honestly, they cant do. Were waiting 4 months to get numbers right on damage abilities that are constantly over or undertuned.

It's also interesting to see someone like the person you quoted try out a stam build for the first time and come to the forums asking for advice on stamina management after realizing that yeah, your defenses infact do pull from the same pool as your heals and damage abilities, and that spamming them will empty it really fast.

Like Fengrush is asking for, I'd rather see individual tuning of abilities and sets than some major overhaul like they're hinting at for U13. Every time they do this it goes badly. Why can't they do incremental changes on a short schedule?

Incremental changes are what the game lacks - and its the biggest cause for despair in balance. We get sweeping changes and content additions that cover up issues and replace them with new ones.

Its getting brutal. All in all, stamina is a great solo/1vX setup - magicka is not built to function the same way, but can implement enough regen to sustain its stamina through fights - but not optimally when outnumbered. Stamina will disengage, magicka really cant.

When it comes to group play - magicka is outpacing stamina. I run small groups, and to do it optimally, I have 0 room for anything stam related. The only thing they are good for is working down extremely tanky builds more quickly than others... but magicka with destro ult will still do it better. Namely due to the fact that they can burn through block. But those targets generally dont matter much, they end up dying when you bust a new wave of players coming in.

Magicka and stamina will always bring different things to the table. The goal should be to have a vision where they bring a good variety while retaining balance from smaller to larger scale options. All in all, these issues go completely overlooked and are just painted over with new sets and new skills while trying to address the loudest concerns of the forum/community.

Take out the Destro ult - like 90% of the community is calling for - and do you still feel the same way?

Just a few weeks ago, you shown in your tank video tactics centered on multi-dawnbreakers, which I would guess comes from stamina builds.

Now magicka gets a single new toy and all of a sudden magicka is bees knees?

I think magicka groups are strong simply because groups are strong. Being in a group allows your build to have weaknesses that other players can cover up, which is why magicka builds work with them. "Work" doesn't necessarily mean "better than stam." Nerf that destro-ult and I'd like to see your optimal group composition.

Yea I mean - Im talking about what the patch is. Thats like saying take out all proc sets and would you still feel stamina is so good to people now? Itd be good, but in the current environment? Why is it hard to kill people in the current environment without procs? Because general HP has gone up. Why? New sets.

New sets are factored into magicka compositions. They are able to have more damage if they want to go full damage setup - they can also balance a build much easier. Comboing lich and reactive and playing magplar on my first day in a group and I was sustaining forever with huge survival behind it. Still getting regen from blood spawn + reactive + heavy stam restore and mist form.

A lot of things change the meta is all. Im not saying Im ok with everything, I still dont like light armor and medium hasnt been that great either. You have to use shields for light armor, the pen will literally slice through a majority on any build, especially with new pen sets.

Im not saying everything is OK - Im saying I could run a 2-3 DB focused setup last patch and it pales in comparison to this one. This also takes into account that TF is the only decent place to PVP and its more massive group focused (EoTS > DB - not only for damage, but area coverage).