Gear.

Khyras

I think things like gear ( armor and weapons), food buffs, pot buffs should play far lesser role in pvp than they do now, main things contributing to your performance as a player should be class and weapon skills ( build) and your personal skill as a player.Gear should be icing at the cake, not an absolute requirement like it is now.Also, pvp and pve gear should be completely separate, with pvp being earned and becoming purchasable as you progress in PvP rank.I do not want to farm pve to be able to play PvP, from the perspective of someone who mainly plays PvP, it is terrible design.

Anazasi

no one wants to farm gear but to think that the game should be separated into playable realms is unrealistic. The T1 gear is extremely unique and it affords players the opportunity to be creative in build and group role. It's been a week since T1 launch and I believe lots of players have found the path to greater DPS, since that is usually the route many players seek. However, path to sustain is less traveled and will take longer to discover. But, when that path has been mapped, all the DPS path walkers will find no matter how hard they tap that macro key the end result will be the same. The mechanics of world PVP is not what 1 player can accomplish but rather what your group can do. This is the revelation of One Tamriel and the diversity that exists in builds and the micro meta; Let there be Synergy.............

donJay

Then what's the point of PvE? To farm gear that will barely matter in pvp?

zyk

It's pretty clear that a significant gear gap exists in ESO PVP. Some BIS gear such as Maelstrom weapons requires a huge investment of time to grind.

The problem with this is that PVP enthusiasts, in general, don't want to spend hundreds of hours grinding PVE instances. Like everyone, PVP enthusiasts prefer to do what they enjoy: PVP.

When ESO was in development, this was a topic of discussion as PVP enthusiasts wanted to know how much PVE would be required. We were assured that the gear gap would be minimal and a PVP only player could remain competitive. That is what I recall, at least. The reason Cyrodiil has PVE content is so the option of playing almost entirely in Cyrodiil existed.

Of course, the players with the time and inclination to grind PVE instances and play PVP hardcore prefer this as it gives them an advantage. However, it severely limits the audience for comeptitive, high-level PVP as those most interested in PVP will leave and have left the game. This renders being among the most competitive in ESO PVP meaningless.

I very much enjoyed ESO versions 1.6 through 2.2 because I thought the gear gap was smaller than it is today and crafted only builds were much more competitive.

IMO, most of the sets introduced since 2.3 have been detrimental to the PVP side of the game. PVP now feels too cheesy and random.

Lava_Croft

zyk wrote: »

It's pretty clear that a significant gear gap exists in ESO PVP. Some BIS gear such as Maelstrom weapons requires a huge investment of time to grind.

The problem with this is that PVP enthusiasts, in general, don't want to spend hundreds of hours grinding PVE instances. Like everyone, PVP enthusiasts prefer to do what they enjoy: PVP.

When ESO was in development, this was a topic of discussion as PVP enthusiasts wanted to know how much PVE would be required. We were assured that the gear gap would be minimal and a PVP only player could remain competitive. That is what I recall, at least. The reason Cyrodiil has PVE content is so the option of playing almost entirely in Cyrodiil existed.

Of course, the players with the time and inclination to grind PVE instances and play PVP hardcore prefer this as it gives them an advantage. However, it severely limits the audience for comeptitive, high-level PVP as those most interested in PVP will leave and have left the game. This renders being among the most competitive in ESO PVP meaningless.

I very much enjoyed ESO versions 1.6 through 2.2 because I thought the gear gap was smaller than it is today and crafted only builds were much more competitive.

IMO, most of the sets introduced since 2.3 have been detrimental to the PVP side of the game. PVP now feels too cheesy and random.

Couldn't agree more. The promised focus on PvP seems all but forgotten.

Biro123

Its an odd one, that always leaves me conflicted.

On the one hand, I like finding different builds and swapping/changing them, finding what works and changing it freshen things up/keep opponents on their toes. For me that's a big part of PVP in an MMO. I wouldn't like it to be gear that is all just there for you to pick and choose, that doesn't seen right. But I also don't like that as pure solo-PVEer and mostly PVPer, a lot of the best gear is out of my reach as its PVE and needs a group. But different builds/gear sets and having to aquire them is a GOOD thing.

Now on a different note.. What do players actually want from PVP? I cut my PVP-teeth in Warhammer Online - coming into the game late (as I did with this one). That game had scenario's/instanced arenas/small-scale pvp, whatever you want to call it. It was the fastest way to get lots of action. You quickly came to recognise the good players. After a while I found that:
1. They were generally simply more skilled PVP players.
2. They were also better geared
3. They had higher 'realm ranks' = stronger characters.

So the 1st point should be enough to allow them to beat you in an equal-numbers competitive environment. If they are the more skilful player, they would usually win. For number 2. they were either ahead of the curve when the game started (ie they ground the dungeons first, got their end-game gear first, and used it to their advantage in PVP while they first learned the ropes and then ground up the realm-ranks quickly with that advantage. Which leads to number 3 - a level difference based purely on PVP kills/wins etc. With 1 and 2, the gap in 3 only grows. The game then introduced gear that was often BiS for PVP but was gated by realm-rank - widening that gap further.

Now in any sport, generally it tries to put equally matched players/teams together - either with different leagues - or with handicaps (like Golf). PVP in MMO's is like Golf - only giving the worse player the handicap instead.

ESO isn't anywhere near as bad as that was, but there is still the mindset of rewarding the better players by making them better-er. I don't like it - but on the flip-side I didn't like the early GW2 PVP either - which had everyone on an even playing field (not sure how its changed over its life).. I don't know what the answer is, but the common theme seems to be that games generally have it farirly close to what it should be while still new - ie a small, but real gap - then they throw in PVE gear creep with new sets/raid tiers etc.. and it just screws up PVP imho.

Crown

Biro123 wrote: »

Which leads to number 3 - a level difference based purely on PVP kills/wins etc. With 1 and 2, the gap in 3 only grows. The game then introduced gear that was often BiS for PVP but was gated by realm-rank - widening that gap further.

@Biro123 Reaching skill line level 10 to unlock all the PvP passives and skills is about 2 solid days of PvP for an average player. After that point, the only thing you get is pretty colours and titles.

Legate Black is the blackest black, Palatine White the purest white, and General's Gold the best colour in existence (IMNSHO) - you can see all the higher level PvP colours here. It would be nice if we got some sort of benefit for the high ranks..

A dedicated player can reach Grand Overlord in about 7-8 months. A few hours a night player will probably take about 3-4 years and that's assuming a good group of skilled AP farmers. The state of the game today however makes AP farming a lot more tedious and less fun - so for a late comer, it's just a lot more challenging to get the high ranks. There are a lot of old timers in that category who are reaching the General / Warlord ranks these days.

Biro123

Yeah, as I say it isn't too bad for ESO - which is nice. The only thing really making a difference being CP's and whether you're willing to farm pve dungs for some of the bis gear.

I just question the whole idea of an 'inverse handicap' in pvp in mmo's... even though, deep down I like it.

AhPook_Is_Here

I think in the end the real problem is the scaling of the gear with straight multipliers in the cp system that creates a y=x power curve. If gear only provided additive bonuses and all other bonuses in the game were additive you could construct an y=√x curve and gear would play less of a role.

Aldarenn

We've got One Tamriel, now give us Skyrim Online PvP!

Who actually didn't want this?!

CapuchinSeven

zyk wrote: »

It's pretty clear that a significant gear gap exists in ESO PVP. Some BIS gear such as Maelstrom weapons requires a huge investment of time to grind.

The problem with this is that PVP enthusiasts, in general, don't want to spend hundreds of hours grinding PVE instances. Like everyone, PVP enthusiasts prefer to do what they enjoy: PVP.

When ESO was in development, this was a topic of discussion as PVP enthusiasts wanted to know how much PVE would be required. We were assured that the gear gap would be minimal and a PVP only player could remain competitive. That is what I recall, at least. The reason Cyrodiil has PVE content is so the option of playing almost entirely in Cyrodiil existed.

Of course, the players with the time and inclination to grind PVE instances and play PVP hardcore prefer this as it gives them an advantage. However, it severely limits the audience for comeptitive, high-level PVP as those most interested in PVP will leave and have left the game. This renders being among the most competitive in ESO PVP meaningless.

I very much enjoyed ESO versions 1.6 through 2.2 because I thought the gear gap was smaller than it is today and crafted only builds were much more competitive.

IMO, most of the sets introduced since 2.3 have been detrimental to the PVP side of the game. PVP now feels too cheesy and random.

No you are right, I remember the same things.
It was meant to be a game less focused on grinding PVE gear so you could PVP.

Sallington

What they need is a complete overhaul of the gear you can purchase with AP.

Compared to PvE-aquired gear, the "PvP gear" absolutely sucks.

We need PvP Master Weapons that cost 1mil AP to start.

BlackMadara

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Sallington

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

HoloYoitsu

Sallington wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

I'm still waiting for the "up to 200 players on screen at once in a seamless battle for Cyrodiil."

Elong

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

I'm still waiting for the "up to 200 players on screen at once in a seamless battle for Cyrodiil."

lol

BlackMadara

Sallington wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

No, but how do you expect ZOS to make all sets acquirable in PVE useless in PVP? Give them all the "do more damage to bosses" 3 piece? Then there would be less sets available to pvp in. You dont need all the things in dungeons to be effective. If you want to be the best of the best stat wise, you have to work for it

Khyras

Judging by your comments, game doesnt get better/more balanced on max level.I mainly play below lvl 50 campaign, only have one lvl 50 that i have not used yet for PvP, started playing again few days ago and made some new characters.

What i see in below 50 campaign tho is insane, i remember before it was a place where pvp was rather well balanced and fun overall, now, i see guys tanking 10 people for 2-3 minutes, players dishing out ungodly amounts of damage with their health bar not even moving when you hit them etc.

I dont know if its balance, exploits, gear sets, broken skills or something else i am not aware of but this is insane.I am no fan of even playing field like in GW2 but what we have here is ridiculous and unacceptable in my humble opinion.
Or maybe i am just that bad, i sincerely doubt it tho this is by far not my first MMORPG.

Gilvoth

Sallington wrote: »

What they need is a complete overhaul of the gear you can purchase with AP.

Compared to PvE-aquired gear, the "PvP gear" absolutely sucks.

We need PvP Master Weapons that cost 1mil AP to start.

that would be PART of the answer, as a great start!

Gilvoth

Khyras wrote: »

players dishing out ungodly amounts of damage with their health bar not even moving when you hit them etc.

that right there is exactly the problem, in addition to that, those people claim they are "skilled"
to me thats not skill at all.
we also have lagg, where you see people have hit you with 20 skills yet all you saw was 1 hit.
i live 2 states away from zenimax main server, and i get lagg.
then we also have the templars overpowered perminant knock you down, while they fast damage you to death in a matter of 5 seconds.
tanks doing HUGE damage
and the nightblades they call "assassins" that ANYONE can kill in 2 hits and simply are not designed to handle outright open combat, they just die easily and the devs have removed thier ability to stealth properly by giving sorcerers and dragonights and templars the ability to take them OUT of stealth with the flick of a feather.
pvp is not balanced in eso. plain and simple!

Crown

@Khyras Answering one by one..

Khyras wrote: »

I dont know if its balance

Very much so.

Khyras wrote: »

exploits

Less so these days, though there was a guy streaming on Twitch last weekend showing how there are still ways to do the same thing that cheat engine did. They allegedly have better ways to detect such these days, though don't talk about it.

Khyras wrote: »

gear sets

Yup. Lots of proc sets that will insta-gib if you get multiple procs at the same time.

Khyras wrote: »

broken skills

Quite a few of those too.

Khyras wrote: »

or something else i am not aware of

There are also combinations of the above.. Such as broken skills that will auto-proc certain broken sets that can make you almost immortal in PvP (bug report already made for one I found today though there are certainly a lot more) - thanks @KenaPKK for helping me test that.

Khyras wrote: »

but this is insane.

Welcome to ESO.

Lava_Croft

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

I'm still waiting for the "up to 200 players on screen at once in a seamless battle for Cyrodiil."

That actually worked fine until ZOS realized that an MMO might need some sort of anti-cheating measures built into the game.

Sucks to be an indie developer on a tight budget when such things happen.

Vrath

Khyras wrote: »

Judging by your comments, game doesnt get better/more balanced on max level.I mainly play below lvl 50 campaign, only have one lvl 50 that i have not used yet for PvP, started playing again few days ago and made some new characters.

What i see in below 50 campaign tho is insane, i remember before it was a place where pvp was rather well balanced and fun overall, now, i see guys tanking 10 people for 2-3 minutes, players dishing out ungodly amounts of damage with their health bar not even moving when you hit them etc.

I dont know if its balance, exploits, gear sets, broken skills or something else i am not aware of but this is insane.I am no fan of even playing field like in GW2 but what we have here is ridiculous and unacceptable in my humble opinion.
Or maybe i am just that bad, i sincerely doubt it tho this is by far not my first MMORPG.

Well I dont think that is all players in BWB, newer players learning the game and such are in green with maybe some blues and uncomplete sets trying to learn in leveling builds and gear.
Then there are some in BWB in purple and/or gold gear with set bonus jewelry that keep their gear up to date and builds meant specifically for BWB. Those are the ones that are there just stomping new players that dont really have a chance. These players are the ones I would assume you ran across.

That said level 50 AvA is a *** show. Those that do trials and have farmed proc set gear and run stam meta builds are creaming people. King Richard talked about this last night and the cheese one can do when abusing these setups and that with the gear, pots and poisons most dont stand a chance of countering them. As he pointed out that isnt skill, it is low on the totem pole for PvP atm.

Sallington

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

I'm still waiting for the "up to 200 players on screen at once in a seamless battle for Cyrodiil."

I realized they took that phrase off of their site a few months ago when I went to screenshot it lol

HoloYoitsu

[SNIP]
Hey, don't insult hello kitty online!

Khyras

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Khyras wrote: »

[SNIP].

Hey, don't insult hello kitty online!

My bad

heystreethawk

[SNIP]
R.I.P. Lunamarie

Knootewoot

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

It's an MMORPG. I understand that a lot of people don't want to play PVE but you must realize the genre of game you are playing. It's not strange for certain items to only be available in certain areas for this type of game. Its lIke complaining that there are snipers in a FPS.

Were you just not around for the marketing campaign of ESO pre-launch?

I'm still waiting for the "up to 200 players on screen at once in a seamless battle for Cyrodiil."

Well, we had that. Until update 1.2.3

Volrion

I grinded hard for the last month in PVE. Got my cancer builds set-up, and jumped straight into Cyro when they were complete.

I had a viper/vele/alchemist set up on my NB and I tried the malubeth/black rose/transmutation or fasallas on my Templar. Ran malubeth/Black rose/Viper for a bit on my stamplar. I even Zerg bombed with my magblade in alchemist and vicious death.

I was cancerous. I was pissing people off. Even with the 500 ping lag and all the other bugs, my sets got me countless kills, I simply didn't deserve.

It was a good laugh.

I grew bored very quickly though. For me it didn't feel rewarding.

I'm back in Black Water now in crafted blue gear and loving it.

With all that is going on with the broken gear in 1T, I think I'll stay a while...

Maikon

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Khyras wrote: »

players dishing out ungodly amounts of damage with their health bar not even moving when you hit them etc.

we also have lagg, where you see people have hit you with 20 skills yet all you saw was 1 hit.

That's not lag, that's a macro/cheat engine.

Soulac

Maikon wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Khyras wrote: »

players dishing out ungodly amounts of damage with their health bar not even moving when you hit them etc.

we also have lagg, where you see people have hit you with 20 skills yet all you saw was 1 hit.

That's not lag, that's a macro/cheat engine.

A macro isn't capable of doing these things. You don't use multiple skills just because you press your keys faster, do you?