State of Learning in PVP

kaithuzar

I think the format for pvp that most people go in is:
1) get with a zerg
2) learn group mechanics
3) theory craft zerg build
4) zerg harder

sometimes you get
5) get bored
6) learn to duel
7) theory craft dueling build

and very rarely you get
8) learn to 1vX
9) theory craft 1vX build
10) learn to small man group ~ i'm right around here imo, small man group is very difficult & requires consistancy
11) become OP

Personally I think it would be best if players started from a dueling perspective first as that way you learn more about your class & how you can contribute rather than having a raid leader yelling at you to pick 1 ability (which you may not even be built for) & spam it. I don't like this style of play at all yet I understand in situations it can be effective; regardless of the lack of creativity making me want to puke.

The problem is that next patch, when dueling is actually thing, it will force people into aids builds where-as I'm personally pro trying to run the same exact build for everything (excluding pve b/c as much as I've tried it's just not feasible at this point in time). However, I have been successful using the same build for dueling, zerging, 1vX'ing, & small man group & I really promote others to do this & find this type of build for yourself as well!

Going from dueling to 1vX'ing is simply a matter of "how can I deal with a 2nd opponent"?
Really if you can CC one guy while you burst the other one down; you've effectively accomplished this. You can, of course, line -of-sight, as is prevalent in open world style 1vX'ing, but the key is to bring each fight into a one on one situation so that you kill your target & move on to the next guy.

This is one of the hardest forms of pvp because you really have to create a build to have an answer to everything.
1) how are you going to do damage or burst?
2) how are you going to escape?
3) how are you going to heal?
4) how are you going to mitigate damage?
5) how are you going to sustain resources?
6) how are you going to CC?
7) how are you going to mitigate being CC'd?

You pretty much need to have an answer to most if not all of these things in order to have a decent build on your hands. There are exception to this rule for instance:
1) if your opponent dies quickly you don't have to worry about mitigating their dmg
2) if your opponent runs out of resources you don't have to worry about them doing damage to you
3) if your opponent can't heal, he can't survive - this is a major problem & the reason why fasallas is going to be the meta for dueling; technically shields can counter this
Likely others but I can't think at this time.

Anyways, I would be interested in hearing how others are dealing with these situations & what your experiences are. I'll post my answers of how I'm approaching each thing with my build tomorrow but just wanted to post this before I headed out for the night.

-Kai

Lexxypwns

I'd say small group play is exponentially easier than 1vX

MalakithAlamahdi

I think the best way to learn PvP is by doing small scale, that way you will also learn which targets need to be focused first and will get used to a bit of chaos. Ones you got the hang of that a bit you can try to solo some stuff. Zerging doesn't teach you much though, I did that the first year and I still couldn't solo anything after that.

Johngo0036

I generally love playing NB, SOLO,

i hate zerging as people always try to tell me what to do and that irritates me,
So i go SOLO....

Lord-Otto

It's fruitless, anyway.
I typically go in alone, fight my way through and wait for a guildie to invite me to the big group. I'm pretty damn lazy, it seems... xD
Then I fight large scale, cooperate with the group, communicate with my other guilds, and the whole crab that ESO is all about. And after five hours of fighting outnumbered, I look at the progress being made and go to sleep.

Couple hours later I awake in the morning to see the map having been nightcapped by the alliance with already superior numbers. I sigh, drink my coffee and watch videos on YT, or gameplay records, or check forums and stuff to analyze flaws, stuff and come up with improvements. After I emptied my fifth mug of coffee, I come to the conclusion, again, that there is no fix to my enemies always dodgerolling 90% of all my dps. No restriction to keep people from nightcapping. No tools to contain zergs or deal bonus damage against them to keep it a fair fight. In short, game's blatantly unbalanced.

I come to the ESO forums to see if hope is on the horizon. I see the destro and 2H ultimates. I see how balancing is done every six months. I see how the AoE caps thread is abandoned by the responsible developer. I see how those 5k+ weapon power, 2200+ stam regen forumblades tell mag DKs and others to "L2P", because that's what the game about, being good, not having cheesy builds, right?

I put in Dark Souls.

zuto40

Love solo play but the rare times I play with a small group we typically dominate any group regardless of size, learning to 1vX gives a huge advantage to playerd in pvp

Minno

3-5 man is where this game really shines.

As player that didn't understand the game, I joined a guild willing to pick up new players. The only aspects of that experience was when I realized I couldn't be a better player in that environment. From there I found a few other players that were willing to take me on and teach me the ropes of being a self sustaining build.

Duels, should probably not be the starting point given how the game is not technically balanced for such.

Takes-No-Prisoner

This vid is how you learn to 1VX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHDPr07hyzs

Jokes aside OP, you left out a important minor detail, playing and failing then reflecting upon what you failed on. Big part of learning to get better is that. You listed a lot of 'in-general' terms anyone can kind of tack their 5 Star badge onto then say, 'Welp, I mastered this!'

You gotta tailor your training to your own needs, and not everything thinks the same. Part of the reason I don't tell people how to gear up or play PvP is that I would find it personally insulting if someone said how I should L2P.

I'm sure that's not exactly the response your looking for in a discussion, but when you boil it down to the core, you're left with your own experiences to run off of and not everyone understands your own mind ya?

Minno

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

This vid is how you learn to 1VX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHDPr07hyzs

Jokes aside OP, you left out a important minor detail, playing and failing then reflecting upon what you failed on. Big part of learning to get better is that. You listed a lot of 'in-general' terms anyone can kind of tack their 5 Star badge onto then say, 'Welp, I mastered this!'

You gotta tailor your training to your own needs, and not everything thinks the same. Part of the reason I don't tell people how to gear up or play PvP is that I would find it personally insulting if someone said how I should L2P.

I'm sure that's not exactly the response your looking for in a discussion, but when you boil it down to the core, you're left with your own experiences to run off of and not everyone understands your own mind ya?

Unless they asked of course. Then I'd tell them my build and why I picked it. But ultimately, they still need to play and learn the counter moves.

I ZoS would do a good job on helping the player learns why they died (on the pts their tips got more detailed so that's good. But I didn't test it for pvp and it only have me pve tips.)

Bam_Bam

I enjoy zerging. I'd like to try dueling but I find the associated epeen and hubris nauseating. Small scale is fun but only whengrouped with guild's (ie. People guaranteed to have my back!) ☺️

Takes-No-Prisoner

Minno wrote: »

Unless they asked of course. Then I'd tell them my build and why I picked it. But ultimately, they still need to play and learn the counter moves.

I ZoS would do a good job on helping the player learns why they died (on the pts their tips got more detailed so that's good. But I didn't test it for pvp and it only have me pve tips.)

Tips from the result screen are things only the game really sees the guy who died not doing. The game can't tell you how to react to another player that is intelligently breaking LoS, then has his friend comes up from behind to finish you off. Telling me to use a potion to help handle how i died in the results screen is not helpful nor meaningful. This is where personal careful and constructive criticism comes into play. It's a large part in a developing ones PvP goals.

To be frank, 100% of the time when I fall face down, I already know what caused it, most of the times they are minor mistakes that break down to not making good positioning calls on a StamNB.

Now if it were me giving criticism to a group mate as to why he died, I would be all about letting him know what he messed up on. Those types of building blocks will certainly help him move up the ladder, without him needing to re-invent the wheel. Using each other as a means to get better is a great way of saving yourself time and energy having to think about fights from every angle. To dovetail this, this is where I might offer suggestions on things like gear-- the context would fit to a T. He sees his gear doesn't work in front of his own eyes, he asks advice, he sees the gear he uses don't fit his metagame.

One of the things I see a lot of mid-tier players do is they really need to work on their 起き攻め (Okizeme) meta as this is really important to ESO PVP.

Okizeme (起き攻め) is a term used in fighting games which refers to pressuring the opponent while they are getting up after being knocked down. Depending on the game, there are various possible options a player can make after being knocked down.

Minno

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Unless they asked of course. Then I'd tell them my build and why I picked it. But ultimately, they still need to play and learn the counter moves.

I ZoS would do a good job on helping the player learns why they died (on the pts their tips got more detailed so that's good. But I didn't test it for pvp and it only have me pve tips.)

Tips from the result screen are things only the game really sees the guy who died not doing. The game can't tell you how to react to another player that is intelligently breaking LoS, then has his friend comes up from behind to finish you off. Telling me to use a potion to help handle how i died in the results screen is not helpful nor meaningful. This is where personal careful and constructive criticism comes into play. It's a large part in a developing ones PvP goals.

To be frank, 100% of the time when I fall face down, I already know what caused it, most of the times they are minor mistakes that break down to not making good positioning calls on a StamNB.

Now if it were me giving criticism to a group mate as to why he died, I would be all about letting him know what he messed up on. Those types of building blocks will certainly help him move up the ladder, without him needing to re-invent the wheel. Using each other as a means to get better is a great way of saving yourself time and energy having to think about fights from every angle. To dovetail this, this is where I might offer suggestions on things like gear-- the context would fit to a T. He sees his gear doesn't work in front of his own eyes, he asks advice, he sees the gear he uses don't fit his metagame.

One of the things I see a lot of mid-tier players do is they really need to work on their 起き攻め (Okizeme) meta as this is really important to ESO PVP.

Okizeme (起き攻め) is a term used in fighting games which refers to pressuring the opponent while they are getting up after being knocked down. Depending on the game, there are various possible options a player can make after being knocked down.

Oh I'm taking about something else, in that ZoS should allow the newbies a place to start understanding why they aren't effective.
Your points are all valid. Ultimately it's up to the community to teach the finer points of PvP mechanics .

Takes-No-Prisoner

Minno wrote: »

Oh I'm taking about something else, in that ZoS should allow the newbies a place to start understanding why they aren't effective.

How? In fact how do you really teach a new comer how to PvP? There is a lot of information that gates them out from the get-go, not just all gear.

zuto40

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Oh I'm taking about something else, in that ZoS should allow the newbies a place to start understanding why they aren't effective.

How? In fact how do you really teach a new comer how to PvP? There is a lot of information that gates them out from the get-go, not just all gear.

take them along for some 2vX, have them sit back occasionally and just watch you 1vX or 1v1, after that just point out a few things you did that they should remember, nothing better then hands on experience

kaithuzar

@Lexxypwns

When I talk about "small man group" I don't just mean the typical "hey everyone lets focus down this guy"; typically the weak link. Although that is a part of the strategy I mean sypher & aetcha, I mean kodi & blab, I would even go as far to say hektik & tom hanks. There are many others so forgive me if I'm just naming the ones people should really know.
But this is the type of really good synergized small man play that I'm referring to.
I believe to obtain this level you need to either know your class & your friends class really well or you need to have spent enough time fighting together in cyrodiil to instinctively know it.

kaithuzar

Here is my approach to answer the questions I've posed above with my build: (magicka nb)

1) how are you going to do damage or burst?
over 40k max magicka, over 3k buffed sp dmg, over 40% crit = ambush, concealed strike, impale/sap
worst case scenario - metoer + agony

2) how are you going to escape?
cloak if open world, otherwise kill the enemy

3) how are you going to heal?
resto bubble, possibly swallow soul, tri-pot

4) how are you going to mitigate damage?
magicka harness, resto bubble, heavy armor x5

5) how are you going to sustain resources?
worm cult (5% reduce cost), atro mundus, magicka harness

6) how are you going to CC?
prolonged suffering (morph of agony)

7) how are you going to mitigate being CC'd?
immovable brute on back bar for 20% reduce cost breakfree
*note, I play on back bar defensively until I go in for the kill

Note: kags does not do enough damage for this build, right now i'm using elf bane & after patch will swap to julianos/rattlecage

Stoopid_Nwah

After getting emperor I promised myself I would never run in large groups ever again because it is just such a headache. The exceptions are when I play with a guild, but it tends to be pretty rare.

1v1s are fun, but most players have such a huge ego that I found ganking to be more fun. That way I don't have to talk to anyone at all lol.

1vxing is difficult mostly because it seems everyone runs in zergs (including those who play solo by not grouping, but following the zerg). A lot of times when I'm on my gank build it turns into a small 1vx where I gank the healer, then the annoying kid who is relentless in spamming aoes to find me, and then the kid who saw what happened from a distance and wants to be a hero. At that point usually a larger group comes and I just hang back amused from watching them all run in the same circles trying to find me.

Lately though, I have been sort of disgusted with PVP. So I'll go into Cyrodiil maybe an hour a day, and the rest of the time I am finishing achievements and farming. We shall see what happens when dueling comes, but as you mentioned, I just see it turning into cookie-cutter cancer build vs. cookie-cutter AIDS build.

CapuchinSeven

Lord-Otto wrote: »

again, that there is no fix to my enemies always dodgerolling 90% of all my dps. No restriction to keep people from nightcapping. No tools to contain zergs or deal bonus damage against them to keep it a fair fight. In short, game's blatantly unbalanced.

I come to the ESO forums to see if hope is on the horizon. I see the destro and 2H ultimates. I see how balancing is done every six months. I see how the AoE caps thread is abandoned by the responsible developer. I see how those 5k+ weapon power, 2200+ stam regen forumblades tell mag DKs and others to "L2P", because that's what the game about, being good, not having cheesy builds, right?

I put in Dark Souls.

Yup. This.