Make Breath of Life function like Dark Deal?

Grumble_and_Grunt

TLDR; Breath of Life QQ

In short, does anyone agree or disagree on the functionality of breath of life as it stands? As of now with the new 'meta' the recent buffs in heavy armor and new reagents for created potions such as Major Vitality have really created incredibly strong synergies with existing sets to create some serious juggernaut builds; Reactive, Malubeth, Transmutation to name a few. As someone who mains templar myself and has therefore had a lot of experience with Breath of Life/Honor the Dead and all the past changes that have been made as a result of community QQ. I found myself and many others a bit frustrated at times with the driving force for the changes that had happened e.g. less targets and LoS (Although I feel the latter was imperative for balance and game has been better of for it). But when you go into Cyro to PvP and come across these builds (which are now everywhere and the Templar meta, not just a niche unique build you run across 1/10 times) and faced with multiple templars running these kind of builds, it makes for almost impossible encounters where despite stacking monumental healing debuffs and damage, 2 or 3 of these templars can void the fight and compensate for each other endlessly, to the point where unless you have multiple Stam NB to synchronise Incap for the dmg on top of healing defiles or simply have the damage by sheer numbers to counter to them, they to me still emphasise the problem with Breath of Life.

The problem simply being the lack of tactical choice in using it defensively or even offensively if someone (which most running these builds will do so) using in group format. The problem is there is simply no reason not to, no penalty no choice of options it's simply a get out of jail free card. Now most will argue that this is the purpose of the skill and why not suggest a penalty for the vigor/rally rollerblade heals, but the difference is these are counter-able in the timeframe where these builds are not. Breath of Life despite class identity makes for game breaking results, really.

So I suggest and want to know what you guys think, in making Breath of Life function similar to Dark Deal, in that dark deal has a 1 second cast time, animations is almost exactly the same as Breath of life, except that dark deal is interruptible. How do people feel about making Breath of life behave in the same way? Remove the weird almost mini self root you get when casting dark deal, but keep the function of players interrupting the skill and perhaps make breath of life heal in 3 phases instead of one, like an accelerometer effect so 1/3 of heal tooltip total is done on input then during the channel time partially heals for full tooltip total if uninterrupted. I personally feel such a function would still make the heal incredibly strong and at same time give more risk/reward and counters to it because in its current state these builds emphasise the impaired functionality at it when you see it firsthand being exaggerated x1000.

Of course the 1 second channel time will cause a problem amongst those who prefer to PvE, as someone who does both I can also see it's potential problems with healing a raid but I think it is worth me suggesting to see what others think, being interruptible would not cause too much of a problem in PvE but the cast time would, but without a cast time there is no time frame to interrupt.

To conclude it is not the gear with exception of Malubeth (pls fix this) I am talking about here, it is the overall synergy of what I mentioned that really emphasises what I feel is an underlying problem. As someone who has played a Templar since beta survivability atm with the lack of any real limits is out of control atm imo. Interested to hear what the community thinks about it or what improvements you can offer or if disagree entirely, try to reframe from class patriotism and bias please, if this game is to survive balance is important before class changes appear in Crowns Store and then it's GG GN.

INB4; L2P Issue, QQ, Temps are fine, nerf radiant, Nerf me more pls

Zheg

That would be called ritual, has the same cast time youre looking for, and no templar uses it once theyre past level 30 and know better.

These threads... how about we start slapping multiple cast times on other class hallmarks, seeing as how templars already have the most.

Grumble_and_Grunt

@Zheg

Yes no templar uses it because they are penalised for using it unlike Breath of Life. As stated I PvP everyday on templar, I know what I am suggesting here. Yes it is incredibly frustrating being a class with more channels than any other, combine this with lag where you're basically a walking potato, although lag shouldn't even be a deciding factor in overall game balance.

I was just trying to think of viable solutions for it. Can you honestly say as it stands it is working fine in grand scheme of things? Sure before I would argue that was the class but as the lack of limits and as we start reaching CP increases, healing output will continue to rise and ofc so will the damage, but the skill offers no open counters unless spec to do so and even then we have extended ritual to void heal debuffs anyways, so I still think seeing more and more templars in cyro than ever before when nobody wanted to play one. Now you see the imbalance in Breath of Life being completely instant. The only other solution would be to reduce it's numeric output in my eyes or deal with it indirectly by gear nerfs and what not which has been done for class imbalances before which is not the right approach imo, but regardless I see your point. Just throwing some ideas out there seeing what people think.

ofc wouldn't have to rely so much on it if sun shield wasn't useless for anyone not running high health pools, but that's another discussion entirely.

lonewolf26

Most good healers won't use Breath for more than just a tight spot. It heals only a couple of players which makes it unreliable in anything outside a small group or solo situation. Spamming it will quickly deplete you magicka. It makes no sense to put a cast time on a situational flash heal with so many limitations. That's part of the reason so few people use healing ritual.

Articulemort

Forcing BoL to have a cast time would completely destroy it's usefulness in PvE and completely eliminate the only good emergency heal in the game, besides ultimates. BoL was already nerfed from healing 5 players to 2, what else more could you want?

I'm sick of PvPers trying to nerf templars into the ground, to the point where they will be useless in PvE too.

Grumble_and_Grunt

@lonewolf26

I have to disagree with you from my past experiences. For me in the current state of the game most builds will have no problems with depleting magicka, if anything it's the solo encounters when outnumbered that are most at risk at that, but most templars are only not healing when attacking their stamina pools and therefore is never an issue with magicka. Ofc this has somewhat changed with heavy armor since TG where heavy has synergised strong with templar but with CP and regen foods and what compensating for each other with multiple templars healing is never a question with sustain, this game hasn't been a question of sustain for a long time. On top of that I also disagree with the part about situational heals. It is spammed as emergency or even most times for the ball groups preemptively for incoming damage and not dependant on situation the lack of targets is compensated simply by having some more temps in your group, unless playing small scale or solo where this isn't even an issue. I think the problem is the lack of limitations more than anything, but as said maybe a cast time is not the most sensible solution to some, but unless changing it to a rally like heal with even stronger HoT it still will always have the problem of being countered besides attacking CC and defiles which a templar can counter alll so easily and once CC heal to full. I mention the new synergy to heavy armor with templar now makes it difficult to burst down when attacking ones stam pool before breaking CC and healing to full instantly, this is still a problem imo.

Grumble_and_Grunt

@Articulemort

I PvE almost as much as I PvP and healed many many times before, BoL is not an issue in healing you're kidding yourself if you believe that, healing is only now a matter of up keeping DPS buffs nowadays simply for the relaxed easy nature of BoL, all those changes created was pressing BoL a few more time than normal and synching HoTs with other healer in raid (Dungeons are not even a question of competence for BoL). And as stated with the lack of sustain issues in this game this is not an issue so much in PvE, saying it is because as heal you're building for off roles or something to have such issues.

Talyena

Why would you nerf a class around a build? Doing that would then nerf everyone who doesn't use that build and therefore push everyone not using that build to use that build in order to remain viable. And if BoL was nerfed, those running that build (which would now be just about everyone) would just use a better, more cost effective heal such as healing springs. Just seems backwards to me to nerf a spell based on a build.

DisgracefulMind

Absolutely not. Breath has already been nerfed multiple times, it does not need another one.

Elong

Oh my, the time to kill is increasing on certain builds, what a travesty!!11!!!!11!!!

CyrusArya

The thing is, dark deal complements the sorcs main defenses whereas BoL is the Templars main defense. Not exactly a fair comparison. Also heal debuffs are a thing, and a very potent thing at that. L2P m8.

Grumble_and_Grunt

@Talyena The post wasn't related to the builds entirely but how they builds emphasise what I feel to be an underlying problem with the class and overall class balance.

@Elong Missed the point entirely, time to kill isn't the issue, the issue is when you're faced with multiple templars they can compensate for each other to the extent there would not even be a kill if played right.

@CyrusArya There is ofc a reason why BoL is the Templar main defence and it is because it is that strong others are not necessarily relevant in certain situations. But I do not agree it even is the only defence a templar has, we have Extended ritual by far templars most effective skill outside BoL in utility and in fact most situations is more of a priority than BoL. We also have focus which for its cost is pretty damn good defensively in terms of sustain and resistances and if took other morph forms of mitigation. But with your point being made and @Zheg earlier point about healing ritual which tbh I even forgot about as a skill that even existed and even though it is far inferior to BoL then maybe should look as to why that is and why I am making this discussion in first place.

Last thing about heal debuffs...Extended ritual. L2P m8.

Chuga_Rei

Zheg wrote: »

That would be called ritual, has the same cast time youre looking for, and no templar uses it once theyre past level 30 and know better.

These threads... how about we start slapping multiple cast times on other class hallmarks, seeing as how templars already have the most.

negative. I use it.

same cast time as flash heal in WoW, and situation depending the best heal in the game currently.

Lord_Hev

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Elong Missed the point entirely, time to kill isn't the issue, the issue is when you're faced with multiple templars they can compensate for each other to the extent there would not even be a kill if played right.

Ummm.... "if played right" then they should be ****ing rewarded for playing right. WTF is the issue here? Go put down a meat-bag catapult or something ffs.


What is this dysfunctional Wrobel mentality of rewarding brainless ***? Im sick of it.

DisgracefulMind

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Elong Missed the point entirely, time to kill isn't the issue, the issue is when you're faced with multiple templars they can compensate for each other to the extent there would not even be a kill if played right.

Ye and faced with multiple other classes you probably aren't going to get a kill either if they're good players. QQ. QQ. QQ. QQ.

If I run duo Templar I'm going to be hard to kill. Double Sorcerer, hard to kill. Double Nightblade, hard to kill. Double DK, hard to kill.

Sorry you have to work for a kill.

NERF EVERYTHING.

maxjapank

Didn't read. But no. Leave Templars alone. In fact, leave all classes alone. If anything, ask for buffs, not nerfs. Let the Devs do their jobs.

juhasman

Chanell time is a bad idea imo. Templar have already channeled offensive (flare+RD+jabs) so adding channeled defensive would make the class hard to work with. The main problem with BoL now is value it heals mixed with possibility to totall spam it. I know magicka sorc can also spam shields but he can do it only on himself not everyone around. There should be some mechanic preventing from brainless spam of BoL especially from few templars. Maybe make BoL healing reduced by some percentage value with each use within few seconds on person it was used.

Cinnamon_Spider

No. Just no.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Articulemort

I PvE almost as much as I PvP and healed many many times before, BoL is not an issue in healing you're kidding yourself if you believe that, healing is only now a matter of up keeping DPS buffs nowadays simply for the relaxed easy nature of BoL, all those changes created was pressing BoL a few more time than normal and synching HoTs with other healer in raid (Dungeons are not even a question of competence for BoL). And as stated with the lack of sustain issues in this game this is not an issue so much in PvE, saying it is because as heal you're building for off roles or something to have such issues.

Show me how you do vMoL and vSO hardmode without anyone in your group using breath of life or the twilight heal (which is basicly the same as breath of life as long as your pet is alive). If you manage to get the speedrun achievement that way we can talk about adding a cast time, but otherwise pls stop suggesting heavy changes to pve just because there is one person in pvp that you can't kill.

BRogueNZ

lonewolf26 wrote: »

Most good healers won't use Breath for more than just a tight spot. It heals only a couple of players which makes it unreliable in anything outside a small group or solo situation. Spamming it will quickly deplete you magicka. It makes no sense to put a cast time on a situational flash heal with so many limitations. That's part of the reason so few people use healing ritual.

Personally a lot of healing over time with Honor the dead for emergencies seems pretty efficient.
Of course you're rarely the only healer so there is bigger heals as back up. there is a lot of healing done and received, empowered by so many options.

Haquor

There is a resounding theme to the response to your descussion and i will echo it:

No.

KenaPKK

lonewolf26 wrote: »

Most good healers won't use Breath for more than just a tight spot. It heals only a couple of players which makes it unreliable in anything outside a small group or solo situation. Spamming it will quickly deplete you magicka. It makes no sense to put a cast time on a situational flash heal with so many limitations. That's part of the reason so few people use healing ritual.

This.

Plus imo it's the magnitude of heals overall that are kinda overtuned right now. BoL is a trademark class ability. I'd prefer more easily accessible heal debuffs with counterplay than spot nerfing it out of the crowd. Fasalla's is a wonderful thing.

Also channels suck. I'd rather talk about Healing Ritual buffs personally.

KenaPKK

juhasman wrote: »

Chanell time is a bad idea imo. Templar have already channeled offensive (flare+RD+jabs) so adding channeled defensive would make the class hard to work with. The main problem with BoL now is value it heals mixed with possibility to totall spam it. I know magicka sorc can also spam shields but he can do it only on himself not everyone around. There should be some mechanic preventing from brainless spam of BoL especially from few templars. Maybe make BoL healing reduced by some percentage value with each use within few seconds on person it was used.

If we didn't all have 2k+ regen from CP, sustain would block spamming anything -- shields, heals, Streak, roll, cloak, heck even some dps.

That's how the combat system in this game was meant to be played -- no cooldowns and sustain gated.

Just putting this out here.

ToRelax

You gave your own answer already. Get rid of CP (you can do that with Azura, so nothing to complain about), and reintroduce some kind of softcaps/diminishing returns. Pre 1.6, a Templar spamming BoL was indeed pretty easy to kill, not so now.

Grumble_and_Grunt

Evidently a cast time is an issue for all and myself included I was just making suggestions and wanted to know what the community feels about BoL in its current state, the cast time was just to give time frame to interrupt since I do believe it is a problem in PvP.


@Lord_Hev By saying 'If played right' I was simply exaggerating to full extent it's potential to be unkillable, no class should have that potential regardless of skill. The issue is that this is achievable unless severely outnumbered. Also regarding your meat bag catapult remark...Yes because class balance should revolve around siege.

'What is this dysfunctional Wrobel mentality of rewarding brainless ***? Im sick of it.' - The irony in this statement. In its current state BoL rewards brainlessness.

@DisgracefulMind I love fact people make suggestions regarding balancing game, get slandered. I asked for what people would think or would suggest, do you believe BoL as it stands is balanced and fine? Take 'good players' out of the equation and have 2v2 with same classes with players of the same skill level and you'll notice right away the problem imo. Any other class when coupled has counters still because no other class can via instant cast negate all incoming damage for one another with little penalty. Of course you have to work for the kill xD < - this point isn't even relative to my discussion.

@juhasman Yes given the responses channel time is an issue and yes you understand the issue I am talking about, I like the idea of consecutive cast penalties, but I doubt others would favour it at all either, simply due to the impact it would have on PvE.

@lolo_01b16_ESO I didn't say anything remotely about not being able to use the skill, nor would the proposed changes, (Although I am not so sure about cast time as the right solution given feedback) make it any less viable to use it in trial. Healing a trial with a cast time BoL of 1 second like dark deal is incredibly short span, I don't see where this would be an issue despite a situation where people are moving and split with lots of incoming damage e.g. Ozara pins. But the second healer could make up for that anyhow, creating more co-ordination and organisation within a role that is less about healing than it is about up keeping DPS buffs. Most burst damage in trials is covered by springs and HoTs and proper positioning form DPS to avoid such dmg. Maybe returning 3 targets if making such a change would balance this issue as I did not agree with this change in the first place. Hitting less targets is just the consequence of the issue with BoL in Cyro.

@KenaPKK I guess you summed up my point in a sentence more so than I could so in an essay xD. Yes the magnitude of healing is my issue here and with BoL it has no direct counters. I do in fact run Fasalla's if I am running with 2,3 people since it is more effective then as you'd be the target, the problem even with this set, which I don't think balance issues should be resolved with item sets like ZoS has tried doing for a multitude of other things. The problem with Fasalla's however is most templars build these BoL bots for group and will never go offensive to even proc it. The only saving grace atm is having a really co-ordinated burst with a stam blade because the heal defile and burst dmg can be difficult to recover from, but incap has alot of counters too and can be compensated if multiple templars in group. Unless eventually we're going to have heal defiles on all spammable forms of dps now to address the instant cast instant full heal issue others in this thread are oblivious to or have an agenda.

@ToRelax I do in fact play Azura as much as I play a CP campaign and it is obvious CP, the issue is also the dmg reductions in relation to healing, as 1.6 yes it wasn't a problem but there were a lot of one shot style builds to counter and most had low CP but others had 500+ back then. This isn't an issue in Azura you're right because of the lack of sustain. But funnelling everyone into Azura for sake of balance is not the best solution where CP cap increases are arriving.

Zheg

Cast times do not work in lag. HtD is actually bugged as far as I can tell - even in modest lag the skill takes a full 2-3 seconds from hitting it before it fires off whereas healing ward is instant. I've timed it, it actually takes that long. I pretty much keep it on my bar for nostalgia sake and only ever use healing ward during actual fights where I'm pressured. Templars have enough casts and channels, we hate them. Wrobel doesn't get it. I don't play the 'not fair, wah wahhh' card often, but it makes no sense for one class to be burdened as much as templars are with the sheer volume of casts and channels compared to other classes. It doesn't work in a game like ESO, particularly with such low TTK. Adding another, particularly on a skill many rely on, is no bueno.

Anyone spamming breath while being pressured should run out of resources faster than whoever is attacking them, and will die even quicker if their attacker is using poisons and/or heal debuffs. I'm sorry, but breath/HtD is not a problem in this patch, not even remotely. Just because you see a streamer complaining about it, it doesn't mean he knows what the F he's talking about. If anything breath needs to be buffed to hit 3 again.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Nerf the word meta.

Lore_lai

You're talking about fine-tuning a class when the game first needs balance. You don't do that - you don't tweak one small piece when the whole machinery is in shambles. You make it stable first.

Also you talk about balancing a class/skill around stuff that is broken *cough*Malubeth*cough*.

Basically all I get from your post is you're putting the cart before the horse.

Also **** NO to Templars getting more channels.

Also, also - there will always be that group of folks who will complain about heals. "Damn this other person is getting healed and I can't kill them in 2 seconds! NERF!! Heals too OP!!" but then when their own behinds get smacked but their partner saves them, they love it.
Make up your damn minds and try to see the hypocrisy.

juhasman

KenaPKK wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Chanell time is a bad idea imo. Templar have already channeled offensive (flare+RD+jabs) so adding channeled defensive would make the class hard to work with. The main problem with BoL now is value it heals mixed with possibility to totall spam it. I know magicka sorc can also spam shields but he can do it only on himself not everyone around. There should be some mechanic preventing from brainless spam of BoL especially from few templars. Maybe make BoL healing reduced by some percentage value with each use within few seconds on person it was used.

If we didn't all have 2k+ regen from CP, sustain would block spamming anything -- shields, heals, Streak, roll, cloak, heck even some dps.

That's how the combat system in this game was meant to be played -- no cooldowns and sustain gated.

Just putting this out here.

@KenaPKK Old good times syndrome? Well the main problem is even on non CP campaigns BoL spam still exist. Lot of times i meet there templars which are able to spam it over and over. Not unlimited times in a row like on CP campaigns but still enough to hold on a lot.

@Grumble_and_Grunt i doubt it would affect PvE so much due to fact BoL spam in not needed there. You use it 1 max 2 times on person with low hp and he/she is full hp, sothe fact next 3-4 seconds that person will have debuff for BoL healing dont bother You at all. When i am healing on dungeons i use BoL maybe 4-5 times during all dungeon sometimes.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Is there anything that Templars do that you guys don't want to nerf?

I've been running a magplar BoL-Radiant Destruction build for over a year. Get off my lawn.

Side note: yes you can spam it and win a resources race. Stack max magic instead of spell power.

Ghostbane

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nerf the word meta.

That would leave us with 'eta'.

We have enough 'eta' thank you.