Token System For End Game Gear?

iam117

@Orynn <---this guy gets it.........

nine9six

RNG is the reason I don't chase gear. I'd repeatedly run content if there was a Token system of some sort.

For now I'll keep playing Alts and doing random ***.

Lightninvash

a token system but include RNG so you don't get a token every run you just get a chance to gain the token every run you do making it harder to get the tokens but once you have them you are guaranteed gear that you want instead of a random one.

I mostly dislike the token system I mean have you played neverwinter? its so easy to get the best gears just play get the amount of tokens and boom you have it for the most part.

Digiman

It's hard to explain but I will try... There is no competition for gear in this game. In which I mean you don't need to roll for gear you get from bosses with other people. Because of that your always guaranteed something and if isn't something you like then you could decon it for materials to upgrade you other gear or sell for gold.

The games current token system for IC just isn't attractive since I could lose those tokens as well.

Shadesofkin

The sets you can buy with the Tel Var stones is roughly how it ought to work at some point for endgame pve content. If I do AA, HRC, SO, or DSA (or MSA) enough times, I should be able to buy a coffer with the exact weapon/armor I'm looking for, sure I'd be willing to roll the dice on what weight or trait it's going to have, but once I've done the deed enough times I deserve to take my darn reward.

iLawyeredYou

RNG gives MMOs their lifespan. If you were to be handed everything so easily then the game would be discarded alot sooner. RNG is unfair and arbitrary but it is there for a reason.

Orynn

So, let me get this straight... "RNG gives MMOs their lifespan", insofar as not "getting all of the gear you want day one", correct? So, you're telling me that running a single dungeon 10, 20, or 100+ times to assemble 5 pieces of divines trait gear in a single set isn't enough? There are hundreds of sets! Even IF I ran these dungeons each 100 times and, after those 100 runs, was able to walk away with ONE set of gear that I wanted (i.e. perfect traits/slots) that that would break the MMO mystique and ruin its replay-ability and I'd leave, stop paying my sub and think "Boy, THAT was TOOOOO easy!"? What universe are you coming from?

If I were to actually complete one of these sets I might just start using them in other PVE content and/or in PVP. I might actually move on to another dungeon and start my 100+ runs to complete another of the hundreds of sets that are out there. Quite literally the LAST thing that would occur is that I'd become bored by said completion of the 1st set. I'd feel somewhat sated, sure, but that would be short-lived in the realization that there is more out there that could actually be accomplished. It's called "progression". It's called "variation".

To be perfectly frank, the only reason most of this content is run, re-run and re-re-run, ad infinitum, is to eventually not HAVE to run it anymore. The replay-ability should come from the challenges overcome, the fun had while overcoming them and the camaraderie of playing with friends and game-mates, not RNG grind. But that's literally all there is: Grind!

I often make the joke that it's "time to make the donuts" when running any ESO content... from the 80's TV commercial for Dunkin' Donuts wherein the monotony and repetitiveness this game relies on is analogous to this same mentality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=petqFm94osQ

Again, in the game "City of Heroes", the replay-ability came from all of the options a player had to try out and ACTUALLY PLAY WITH, in an attempt at finding a combination of effects and abilities that allowed them to customize their characters and make them more unique and, therefore, FUN. I can honestly say that, after playing since early release, almost the entirety of my testing has come from crafted sets since I can actually USE them. At no point did I think to myself "Gee, now that I've crafted this set and tested it out, I'm so bored, I'm quitting".

The acquisition of gear is not and should not be the focus of these games, the "item chase" that Matt Firor loves to refer to. More like chasing your F'ing tails... THAT, my friends, is boredom. That's the very definition of monotony. Lazy game design at its finest.

Molec

This needs to be implemented, currently I'm wasting too many hours on maelstrom and to be honest I don't want to be forced to grind the arena 60+ times to get an Inferno & Restoration staff when I currently have 8x stamina weapons (most of which my character hasn't used since leveling 12 months ago) from my first 20+ runs along with 2xlightning staffs that ruin my DPS.

Oh and don't you just love it when you have a lag filled run through the arena only to be rewarded with a ring that will be sold to the vendor for 51g!

Pllleasssee ZOS

razzle1184kicks

So would guild traders be out if a job as I'd imagine something like this would bound a weapon or item. No one will buy from traders as there'd be no point?

Or am I wrong?

iam117

razzle1184kicks wrote: »

So would guild traders be out if a job as I'd imagine something like this would bound a weapon or item. No one will buy from traders as there'd be no point?

Or am I wrong?

your wrong, you cant sell BOP gear anyways, this should only be implemented for BOP gear not BOE

Averya_Teira

Solariken wrote: »

Add the ability to re-trait and re-motif gear via crafting.

This would be acceptable. You'd have "normal" RNG like other Games have, not this item + trait RNG crap.

@Orynn speaks the truth.

Artis

[snip]

Not seeing that tokens = choosing an item ~ crafting doesn't speak good about your side. Token idea is not constructive, it's just like fixing a hole in the wall with duct tape. Telling you again, might as well remove gear from the game at all or make all gear craftable. The result will be the same in the long run, actually, in a couple of months, for everyone except for new players. Simply shows that you are lazy and want the system that will help everyone get the gear and will eliminate any rare gear worth hoping for. Especially considering we are playing on megaservers.

iam117

Artis wrote: »

Not seeing that tokens = choosing an item ~ crafting doesn't speak good about your side. Token idea is not constructive, it's just like fixing a hole in the wall with duct tape. Telling you again, might as well remove gear from the game at all or make all gear craftable. The result will be the same in the long run, actually, in a couple of months, for everyone except for new players. Simply shows that you are lazy and want the system that will help everyone get the gear and will eliminate any rare gear worth hoping for. Especially considering we are playing on megaservers.

i can see your argument but still disagree, it in no way devalues the rarity of gear, it simply puts a time frame on it, even if its a long term time frame its there, rng is worse for end game gear especially, i will use maelstrom as an example, some people got their desired items just a couple runs in, some have done it hundreds of times and received nothing worth while, seeing that beating this on vet is still a challenge to large majority of the player base, making it so it has to be beaten x amount of times in order to cash in enough tokens to get a desired weapon would not be disastrous in making the gear any less valuable, what it does is simply guarantee that eventually you will get it, not eventually you might get it. player retention is the way a company stays in business, judging by the sheer amount of hate about rng, specifically about maelstrom, i would say that there is enough of an argument to implement some kind of system for loot exchange/tokens, especially as more and more people complete it more often and get more upset over getting crap. so your answer is to either make all end game gear craft-able or remove gear from the game? that seems more like fixing things with duct tape than implementing a system that allows people to profit from their time spent in a game they find gratification while playing. there is nothing wrong with making end game gear challenging to attain, but making it monotonous is a different argument.

Averya_Teira

Artis wrote: »

[snip]

Not seeing that tokens = choosing an item ~ crafting doesn't speak good about your side. Token idea is not constructive, it's just like fixing a hole in the wall with duct tape. Telling you again, might as well remove gear from the game at all or make all gear craftable. The result will be the same in the long run, actually, in a couple of months, for everyone except for new players. Simply shows that you are lazy and want the system that will help everyone get the gear and will eliminate any rare gear worth hoping for. Especially considering we are playing on megaservers.

And what exactly is the downside of everyone getting the gear they want ?

How does someone getting the weapon they wanted affect YOUR gameplay lol ?

You wrote that like it's a bad thing...

Artis

Lol let those chairs burn.

liv3mind wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Not seeing that tokens = choosing an item ~ crafting doesn't speak good about your side. Token idea is not constructive, it's just like fixing a hole in the wall with duct tape. Telling you again, might as well remove gear from the game at all or make all gear craftable. The result will be the same in the long run, actually, in a couple of months, for everyone except for new players. Simply shows that you are lazy and want the system that will help everyone get the gear and will eliminate any rare gear worth hoping for. Especially considering we are playing on megaservers.

i can see your argument but still disagree, it in no way devalues the rarity of gear, it simply puts a time frame on it, even if its a long term time frame its there, rng is worse for end game gear especially, i will use maelstrom as an example, some people got their desired items just a couple runs in, some have done it hundreds of times and received nothing worth while, seeing that beating this on vet is still a challenge to large majority of the player base, making it so it has to be beaten x amount of times in order to cash in enough tokens to get a desired weapon would not be disastrous in making the gear any less valuable, what it does is simply guarantee that eventually you will get it, not eventually you might get it. player retention is the way a company stays in business, judging by the sheer amount of hate about rng, specifically about maelstrom, i would say that there is enough of an argument to implement some kind of system for loot exchange/tokens, especially as more and more people complete it more often and get more upset over getting crap. so your answer is to either make all end game gear craft-able or remove gear from the game? that seems more like fixing things with duct tape than implementing a system that allows people to profit from their time spent in a game they find gratification while playing. there is nothing wrong with making end game gear challenging to attain, but making it monotonous is a different argument.

Well, see. This "guarantee that eventually you will get it" means that everyone will have it. And with the frequency of new content and raising CP cap tjhat means that master weapons will lose their purpose. ZOS said some time that they are supposed to be rare. Tokens = weapons aren't rare.
Secondly, why do you think that everyone should get any gear they want?
And the last thing, no what my "answer" is and what the token system is are two same things in the long run. That's my point. In the end, everyone will have it.

My answer is to make master weapons EXTREMELY rare, that way the % of players having them will be so insignificant that you can't say they have the advantage or whatever. Because it's just 1 player, an outlier, nothing like entire raid groups of players like what we see now. Now that's what it's supposed to be. A rare weapon that everyone see, recognizes and wants. There should be something like that in the game.

Artis

Averya_Teira wrote: »

And what exactly is the downside of everyone getting the gear they want ?

How does someone getting the weapon they wanted affect YOUR gameplay lol ?

You wrote that like it's a bad thing...

It is a bad thing indeed. In the case where every gear is accessible, might as well delete gear completely or give it away. because in the long run everyone will have everything the same. So it will stop being an RPG and will be more of a FPS but with magic.

The way it affects my gameplay is that the time I spent in game won't give me any advantages, which is not how MMORPGs are. If that's what I wanted, guess I'd play a MOBA, where you restart your character every hour?

Averya_Teira

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

And what exactly is the downside of everyone getting the gear they want ?

How does someone getting the weapon they wanted affect YOUR gameplay lol ?

You wrote that like it's a bad thing...

It is a bad thing indeed. In the case where every gear is accessible, might as well delete gear completely or give it away. because in the long run everyone will have everything the same. So it will stop being an RPG and will be more of a FPS but with magic.

The way it affects my gameplay is that the time I spent in game won't give me any advantages, which is not how MMORPGs are. If that's what I wanted, guess I'd play a MOBA, where you restart your character every hour?

Not if they finally start to up the max CP for gear every DLC or two. That fixes your "problem" right there.

You'll finally be happy. You'll have to farm new gear every 6 months. Your time will give you advantages ! Yay !...........

iam117

Artis wrote: »

Well, see. This "guarantee that eventually you will get it" means that everyone will have it. And with the frequency of new content and raising CP cap tjhat means that master weapons will lose their purpose. ZOS said some time that they are supposed to be rare. Tokens = weapons aren't rare.
Secondly, why do you think that everyone should get any gear they want?
And the last thing, no what my "answer" is and what the token system is are two same things in the long run. That's my point. In the end, everyone will have it.

My answer is to make master weapons EXTREMELY rare, that way the % of players having them will be so insignificant that you can't say they have the advantage or whatever. Because it's just 1 player, an outlier, nothing like entire raid groups of players like what we see now. Now that's what it's supposed to be. A rare weapon that everyone see, recognizes and wants. There should be something like that in the game.

in your game, thats the beauty of it all, everyone has their own opinion on what that should be, and they are entitled to it. mine is not yours. it guarantees those items yes, but the bis loot should not stay the same, there for it would be changing, making those rare items change with it, making all of those rare items shift every so often, making the game and end game loot not stagnant. thats my version, and 60% seem to agree so far? and 81% think it needs changes somehow. granted this could shift, and cool if it does, but right now thats where it sits.

Artis

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

And what exactly is the downside of everyone getting the gear they want ?

How does someone getting the weapon they wanted affect YOUR gameplay lol ?

You wrote that like it's a bad thing...

It is a bad thing indeed. In the case where every gear is accessible, might as well delete gear completely or give it away. because in the long run everyone will have everything the same. So it will stop being an RPG and will be more of a FPS but with magic.

The way it affects my gameplay is that the time I spent in game won't give me any advantages, which is not how MMORPGs are. If that's what I wanted, guess I'd play a MOBA, where you restart your character every hour?

Not if they finally start to up the max CP for gear every DLC or two. That fixes your "problem" right there.

You'll finally be happy. You'll have to farm new gear every 6 months. Your time will give you advantages ! Yay !...........

No, it won't. Every 6 months that gear will lose its value and I'll have to farm anew. Besides, they aren't changing CP cap as you can see. I am absolutely content with what's happening right now. I've been playing on this same cap for years and obviously don't see how it's a good thing if others can get everything I have fast.

Artis

liv3mind wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Well, see. This "guarantee that eventually you will get it" means that everyone will have it. And with the frequency of new content and raising CP cap tjhat means that master weapons will lose their purpose. ZOS said some time that they are supposed to be rare. Tokens = weapons aren't rare.
Secondly, why do you think that everyone should get any gear they want?
And the last thing, no what my "answer" is and what the token system is are two same things in the long run. That's my point. In the end, everyone will have it.

My answer is to make master weapons EXTREMELY rare, that way the % of players having them will be so insignificant that you can't say they have the advantage or whatever. Because it's just 1 player, an outlier, nothing like entire raid groups of players like what we see now. Now that's what it's supposed to be. A rare weapon that everyone see, recognizes and wants. There should be something like that in the game.

in your game, thats the beauty of it all, everyone has their own opinion on what that should be, and they are entitled to it. mine is not yours. it guarantees those items yes, but the bis loot should not stay the same, there for it would be changing, making those rare items change with it, making all of those rare items shift every so often, making the game and end game loot not stagnant. thats my version, and 60% seem to agree so far? and 81% think it needs changes somehow. granted this could shift, and cool if it does, but right now thats where it sits.

Oh I agree it needs changes somehow too. But giving guarantees to get any piece of gear and keeping the endgame not stagnant by simply rebalancing it - is a bad idea. It's just forcing people to farm new sets after they changed some values here and there. No, it has to have stagnant plateaus and then new content, rinse repeat.

Averya_Teira

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

And what exactly is the downside of everyone getting the gear they want ?

How does someone getting the weapon they wanted affect YOUR gameplay lol ?

You wrote that like it's a bad thing...

It is a bad thing indeed. In the case where every gear is accessible, might as well delete gear completely or give it away. because in the long run everyone will have everything the same. So it will stop being an RPG and will be more of a FPS but with magic.

The way it affects my gameplay is that the time I spent in game won't give me any advantages, which is not how MMORPGs are. If that's what I wanted, guess I'd play a MOBA, where you restart your character every hour?

Not if they finally start to up the max CP for gear every DLC or two. That fixes your "problem" right there.

You'll finally be happy. You'll have to farm new gear every 6 months. Your time will give you advantages ! Yay !...........

No, it won't. Every 6 months that gear will lose its value and I'll have to farm anew. Besides, they aren't changing CP cap as you can see. I am absolutely content with what's happening right now. I've been playing on this same cap for years and obviously don't see how it's a good thing if others can get everything I have fast.

But... what does it change FOR YOU exactly ?

Ep1kMalware

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

Watch them announce this, then everyone finds out the tokens are on their own RNG system

I wouldnt be surprised

loool omg I choked on my soda reading this.

Artis

Averya_Teira wrote: »

But... what does it change FOR YOU exactly ?

My power/strength relative to other characters including newer players.

And both PvE leaderboards and success in PvP are about relative power. So yeah, I dont' understand if you really had to ask this It's pretty obvious, I think. It's an MMO and players play against/with each other. So it changes EVERYTHING for me exactly.

p.s.But the main point is that it wont' healthy for the whole game, not for me exactly.

Averya_Teira

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

But... what does it change FOR YOU exactly ?

My power/strength relative to other characters including newer players.

And both PvE leaderboards and success in PvP are about relative power. So yeah, I dont' understand if you really had to ask this It's pretty obvious, I think. It's an MMO and players play against/with each other. So it changes EVERYTHING for me exactly.

So your point is you LIKE to not have competition and be super OP compared to others ? You don't want anyone to come close to your power with your super gear.

I guess we are very differently minded. I wouldn't even have gear for PvP, even the field so skill matters.

Okay, got it, won't bother you again. Exactly the type of players I try to stay far away from.

Edit: one last thing, if with the token system, it takes players 6 months (intensive, without missing a day's tokens) to get all geared out, how is your power compared to newer players affected in any way ?

Artis

[snip]

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

But... what does it change FOR YOU exactly ?

My power/strength relative to other characters including newer players.

And both PvE leaderboards and success in PvP are about relative power. So yeah, I dont' understand if you really had to ask this It's pretty obvious, I think. It's an MMO and players play against/with each other. So it changes EVERYTHING for me exactly.

So your point is you LIKE to not have competition and be super OP compared to others ? You don't want anyone to come close to your power with your super gear.

Okay, got it, won't bother you again. Exactly the type of players I try to stay far away from.

Putting words in my mouth? I see. No, you didn't get it. As I said, it will make a game MOBA or FPS instead of MMORPG if everyone has the same gear. Might as well delete all gear or make it craftable since everyone will wear the same, most efficient set, for his class and role.

The point is, that the differentiation in gear will decrease => the game will lose the RPG feel and progress. And I said it already.

You then asked what it will CHANGE for me exactly and I told you what it will change for ME exactly. Do not put words in my mouth, my point wasn't what you said it was.

Averya_Teira

Artis wrote: »

[Snip]

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

But... what does it change FOR YOU exactly ?

My power/strength relative to other characters including newer players.

And both PvE leaderboards and success in PvP are about relative power. So yeah, I dont' understand if you really had to ask this It's pretty obvious, I think. It's an MMO and players play against/with each other. So it changes EVERYTHING for me exactly.

So your point is you LIKE to not have competition and be super OP compared to others ? You don't want anyone to come close to your power with your super gear.

Okay, got it, won't bother you again. Exactly the type of players I try to stay far away from.

Putting words in my mouth? I see. No, you didn't get it. As I said, it will make a game MOBA or FPS instead of MMORPG if everyone has the same gear. Might as well delete all gear or make it craftable since everyone will wear the same, most efficient set, for his class and role.

The point is, that the differentiation in gear will decrease => the game will lose the RPG feel and progress. And I said it already.

You then asked what it will CHANGE for me exactly and I told you what it will change for ME exactly. Do not put words in my mouth, my point wasn't what you said it was.

I'm sorry, but, to you, gear progression is the difference between a RPG and a MOBA or a FPS? That's a... unique point of view I guess...

Artis

Not the only difference, obviously. But if there's no gear progression, then there's no point in gear.

Averya_Teira

Artis wrote: »

Not the only difference, obviously. But if there's no gear progression, then there's no point in gear.

Specifically for PvP, that's exactly my point of view, yes.

In my "World", there'd be a token system for PvE gear and standardized (if that's the right word, not native English, sorry) stats for PvP.

Artis

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Not the only difference, obviously. But if there's no gear progression, then there's no point in gear.

Specifically for PvP, that's exactly my point of view, yes.

In my "World", there'd be a token system for PvE gear and standardized (if that's the right word, not native English, sorry) stats for PvP.

That would split pvp and pve completely and would be a bad thing. Every gamedev is trying to mix pvp and pve so that the world is more holistic and both pvpers and pveers play the same game, not just 2 games under the same name.

Not a great idea. Besides, again, you are basically removing the gear. What's the point of it then? Of course there should be some progression in both pve and pvp. Why would you remove that? And if you do - then why not just go play one of many mobas or shooters?

iam117

still no changes to vma, dozens and dozens of runs later and most of us are still nowhere near our goals. cmon zos listen to our pleas.......

anyone have new suggestions to make regarding possible system changes?