DK execute

Lokey0024

Make inferno the execute for dks. Treat it like assasins will and has to charge on certain attacks.

Lets be honest, noone will choose cauterize over skills in the resto tree or inner light because of the buffs provided. Stam Dk is holed into 2hd because of finishing power and rally. Magika dks dont have any finishing power besides a meteor combo, that if it doesnt hit takes 200 ult to try again.

with the flurry morph returning health and scattershot as well it could create build diversity.

Remove heal. Keep crit bonus, Make stam/magika morphs poison/fire, require charges, and gives bonus damage under 25% health. Think it could be fun.

leepalmer95

Zos pretty much said No on a dk execute because they want classes to be different.

E.g. They want dk to be different to be the only class hitting like a noodle without an execute.

It was pretty much on the level of the templar house bs we all still laugh about.

Warraxx

templars get a house... dk's get an apartment in the low-rent district.

Hutch679

"We wanted to make Dk's different than other classes in the fact that we want them to function entirely as a support class with no execute and a gimpy self heal in pvp zones." - ZOS

Give Dk's an execute.
Fix dragonblood.
Give a 4% increase to lava whip base damage and it's morphs.

All fixed. Dk can be a very competitive class again.

Thoughts?

Lokey0024

Yea kinda in a bad spot right now for magika dk class. The mist form buff will be awesome. but with no way to finish it will just be delaying the inevitable.

Even with that you have to give up an already crowded backbar to even run it. Was thinking with inferno change it could replace magelight, which some still might not want to do, on the front bar with no real loss to a build.

Stam dk wont have to run 2hd/anything else because they can close the deal without having to use reverse slice.

CyrusArya

You guys do realize, making DK's 'different' isn't just limited to not giving them an execute. DKs dont need an execute. The class has the ability to apply more sources of damage than any other class. This holds true in PvP too, but more so for magicka than stamina DK. But there's no reason not to run 2H as stam DK anyways.

If DKs had an execute that was actually worth using, they would be tremendously OP in PvE and it wouldn't be very balanced in PvP either. Anyways, in my experience playing DK in the last past few patches, finishing people off was never an issue- it does that as well as any other class. The issue is, it can't survive in out numbered or open world scenarios as well the other classes. Id rather they focus attention on buffing DKs survivability and mitigation rather than their damage.

Lokey0024

CyrusArya wrote: »

You guys do realize, making DK's 'different' isn't just limited to not giving them an execute. DKs dont need an execute. The class has the ability to apply more sources of damage than any other class. This holds true in PvP too, but more so for magicka than stamina DK. But there's no reason not to run 2H as stam DK anyways.

If DKs had an execute that was actually worth using, they would be tremendously OP in PvE and it wouldn't be very balanced in PvP either. Anyways, in my experience playing DK in the last past few patches, finishing people off was never an issue- it does that as well as any other class. The issue is, it can't survive in out numbered or open world scenarios as well the other classes. Id rather they focus attention on buffing DKs survivability and mitigation rather than their damage.

@CyrusArya
Dont think you play dk. You're not saying much about specifics, so it leads me to believe your just saying it to keep the dk from becoming a challenge. All i heard was dks shouldnt have the stuff cuz reasons.

Every class has about the same amount of damaging abilities, with the exception of an execute for magika dks. When out gets down to it you need the finishing move to wrap up a fight, and using an ultimate as the only option is not only making things abnormally difficult it prevents using the resource regen passive for sustained.

Ill give you specifics. You get a templar down to execute range, after the dots have whittled him down to less then 25% but they are spent (or purged if the templars not a baddie) your hardest hitting ability only hits for 6k on a crit powerlash, his ability to heal from low health is enhanced by alot from breath of life. He BoL once, you fossilize and hit flame lash, he cc breaks and spams bol 4 times. Back to square one.

Armitas

DK rant removed.

Armitas

CyrusArya wrote: »

The class has the ability to apply more sources of damage than any other class....

That is in fact our hindrance. DK whip is balanced around the other damage sources you refer too, but due to purges and maintaining a balanced bar we are without those damage sources...leaving us with incomplete pvp damage. It would be far better if we could derive all our damage from 1 or two sources.

CyrusArya wrote: »

...Anyways, in my experience playing DK in the last past few patches, finishing people off was never an issue- it does that as well as any other class.

I don't think that it is possible to be as good as any other class in finishing people off when they have an execute and we do not. I got executed for 19k from radiant destruction last night starting from above 50% health at near 50% spell mitigation, plus nord mitigation, plus 15% spell reduction from CP. I was at ~70% health and then just dead instantly with 4 1k hits and a 19k radiant on my log. A DK can't do anything close to that.

RinaldoGandolphi

My Dunmer Pyro-mage DK has hit players for 21k in Cyrodiil with a Fully Charged Heavy Attack from a Fire Destruction staff Thats on a full health target too...who needs an execute?

Armitas

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My Dunmer Pyro-mage DK has hit players for 21k in Cyrodiil with a Fully Charged Heavy Attack from a Fire Destruction staff Thats on a full health target too...who needs an execute?

I guarantee you put a lot more effort into that 21k then the guy who hit me through all that mitigation for 19k. His damage was a product of just being an execute... 1 button and done. Your damage was a product of molten armaments, the time and risk to charge a full heavy attack, along with all the sacrifices that come with stacking that much damage. Your damage came primarily through the destro line, his came directly through his class. You did some good solid damage but it really doesn't compare to simply having an execute.

Xvorg

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Make inferno the execute for dks. Treat it like assasins will and has to charge on certain attacks.

Lets be honest, noone will choose cauterize over skills in the resto tree or inner light because of the buffs provided. Stam Dk is holed into 2hd because of finishing power and rally. Magika dks dont have any finishing power besides a meteor combo, that if it doesnt hit takes 200 ult to try again.

with the flurry morph returning health and scattershot as well it could create build diversity.

Remove heal. Keep crit bonus, Make stam/magika morphs poison/fire, require charges, and gives bonus damage under 25% health. Think it could be fun.

The class that gets major brutality, major sorcery, major profecy, major savagery, major ward, major resolve, major fortitude, major endurance, major mending, and that can apply major defile to an enemy... needs and execute?

Sorry, but no.

Mojmir

well we're supposed to be a support class according to wrobel, I'd like to support executing the boss.

Lokey0024

Xvorg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Make inferno the execute for dks. Treat it like assasins will and has to charge on certain attacks.

Lets be honest, noone will choose cauterize over skills in the resto tree or inner light because of the buffs provided. Stam Dk is holed into 2hd because of finishing power and rally. Magika dks dont have any finishing power besides a meteor combo, that if it doesnt hit takes 200 ult to try again.

with the flurry morph returning health and scattershot as well it could create build diversity.

Remove heal. Keep crit bonus, Make stam/magika morphs poison/fire, require charges, and gives bonus damage under 25% health. Think it could be fun.

The class that gets major brutality, major sorcery, major profecy, major savagery, major ward, major resolve, major fortitude, major endurance, major mending, and that can apply major defile to an enemy... needs and execute?

Sorry, but no.

All of those buffs dont translate to a kill without an execute. If i put all thesebon my bars it would just be crowded with fluff. Which abilities have synergy with all those buffs?
Noone uses dragonsblood. Bad heal because of battle spirit/you get those buffs from tri pots
Who uses major brutality morph? Stam runs 2hd because rally heal is powerfull burst heal w/an execute in the skill tree, a staple of any build.
Major mending can be achieved by a heavy attack from a resto staff, the way almost every class heals. And did you actually say use standard in pvp for the defile?

Mass hysteria- unblockable cc, causes minor maim, slows enemy, aoe, doesnt break on damage, applies major resolve/ward on use. Allows a NB to get breathing room to restealth/attack unmidigated from block. One ability. This is a good ability. There is limited space on the bar so abilities that are good add to the fun of the game.

Are you catchin what im throwin? There is a basic combat template that EVERY class HAS to follow to be able to fend for themselves. Now if you break that model and make some classes able to fend for themselves and others not able to, what happens? Reroll? Or they don't play the content you spent money creating.

leepalmer95

Xvorg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Make inferno the execute for dks. Treat it like assasins will and has to charge on certain attacks.

Lets be honest, noone will choose cauterize over skills in the resto tree or inner light because of the buffs provided. Stam Dk is holed into 2hd because of finishing power and rally. Magika dks dont have any finishing power besides a meteor combo, that if it doesnt hit takes 200 ult to try again.

with the flurry morph returning health and scattershot as well it could create build diversity.

Remove heal. Keep crit bonus, Make stam/magika morphs poison/fire, require charges, and gives bonus damage under 25% health. Think it could be fun.

The class that gets major brutality, major sorcery, major profecy, major savagery, major ward, major resolve, major fortitude, major endurance, major mending, and that can apply major defile to an enemy... needs and execute?

Sorry, but no.

I'm not even going to bother posting all the other class passives.

Major ward/resolves, every class has, most have better skills and other adds that have it.
Major defile - 3 classes have, ours is a 250 cost ult which is basically useless in pvp.
Major mending - Cool having major mending without the heal. Templars have this with a skill that has far better utility
Major Brutality - No one uses the major brutality aspect of the dk class skill, also nb's have access as well.
Major sorcery - Fair enough this is nice, it's not like sorc and nb's don't have access either.
Major fortitude is near useless
Major Endurance doesn't stack with pots, useless.


Dk dmg is bad compare to every other class because dk's have to spec to survive and whip hits like a noodle. Why shouldn't they have access to a execute?

Vangy

Yeaaaah DK so OP. We have sooo many dots that we can use in 1v1. Yeahhhhhh. Dosent matter our whip hits for 5k noodle. We can eventually wear the guy down right? Right?

WRONG.

MagDK fiercely battling gank blade. DK uses fire breath, searing strike. Yeah now all dots are on enemy. Lets hit him with whip. 5k 5K yeahhh. Now NB low. DK going to win!.

Le wild templar appears. Casts purge.

GG DK (TT).

Rant aside. With nerfs to proxy and now DB of smiting doing physical. Its the death of the magDK. Any mag class or any templar can purge pretty much all the dots you took 5 seconds or more to apply in a single button press. Whats worse is you are a sitting duck with 0 mobility and also relegated to using SnB to barely survive and try to kill people with wet noodle whip that hits for barely 5k. RIP magDK.

Good thing ive got a stamDK who is rocking his 2H and is looking forward to the physical DB of smiting to wreck stuff.

Xvorg

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Make inferno the execute for dks. Treat it like assasins will and has to charge on certain attacks.

Lets be honest, noone will choose cauterize over skills in the resto tree or inner light because of the buffs provided. Stam Dk is holed into 2hd because of finishing power and rally. Magika dks dont have any finishing power besides a meteor combo, that if it doesnt hit takes 200 ult to try again.

with the flurry morph returning health and scattershot as well it could create build diversity.

Remove heal. Keep crit bonus, Make stam/magika morphs poison/fire, require charges, and gives bonus damage under 25% health. Think it could be fun.

The class that gets major brutality, major sorcery, major profecy, major savagery, major ward, major resolve, major fortitude, major endurance, major mending, and that can apply major defile to an enemy... needs and execute?

Sorry, but no.

I'm not even going to bother posting all the other class passives.

Major ward/resolves, every class has, most have better skills and other adds that have it.

Templars have it on a rune that lasts 15 secs. Forget about mobility since if you leave the house, it goes away 8 secs later. Sorcs last 15 secs, while DKs one lasts 20 and has a 3.5 secs shield

Major defile - 3 classes have, ours is a 250 cost ult which is basically useless in pvp.

Last time I checked, standard cost was 200. It is expensive, but it has a pretty strong synergy (and DoT)

Major mending - Cool having major mending without the heal. Templars have this with a skill that has far better utility

As stam DK, throw the shield, then vigor. Or even better, throw thge shield, then rally

Major Brutality - No one uses the major brutality aspect of the dk class skill, also nb's have access as well.

No archer DK? Compare that to a NB archer who wants to use Major Brutality and then snipe... no, he can't

Major sorcery - Fair enough this is nice, it's not like sorc and nb's don't have access either.

To trigger MS in the case of a NB, you need to be near the enemy, which is useful for bombers, but no for ranged attacks, unless you slot entropy. In the case of sorcs, surge pretty much works like armaments, but it has no bonus to fully charged heavy attacks

Major fortitude is near useless

granted, it needs to be reworked

Major Endurance doesn't stack with pots, useless.

I don't know if it is as useless as you mention. Think about a stam DK, or a tank

Dk dmg is bad compare to every other class because dk's have to spec to survive and whip hits like a noodle. Why shouldn't they have access to a execute?

Because a class with all those buffs AND an execute will be too OP. Consider I have not even mentioned the minor buffs that work on par with the major buffs (igneous does not give you 20% extra wpn dmg, but 25% through the mountain blessing), and consider that stam 2H DK was, during a lot of time, the strongest build for duelling.

If DKs want an execute, they should give away something

Xvorg

Vangy wrote: »

Yeaaaah DK so OP. We have sooo many dots that we can use in 1v1. Yeahhhhhh. Dosent matter our whip hits for 5k noodle. We can eventually wear the guy down right? Right?

WRONG.

MagDK fiercely battling gank blade. DK uses fire breath, searing strike. Yeah now all dots are on enemy. Lets hit him with whip. 5k 5K yeahhh. Now NB low. DK going to win!.

Le wild templar appears. Casts purge.

GG DK (TT).

Rant aside. With nerfs to proxy and now DB of smiting doing physical. Its the death of the magDK. Any mag class or any templar can purge pretty much all the dots you took 5 seconds or more to apply in a single button press. Whats worse is you are a sitting duck with 0 mobility and also relegated to using SnB to barely survive and try to kill people with wet noodle whip that hits for barely 5k. RIP magDK.

Good thing ive got a stamDK who is rocking his 2H and is looking forward to the physical DB of smiting to wreck stuff.

The problem with mag DK is not the execute. It is the total absesnce of a ranged spamable skill. In that case, I'll pretty much switch chains with odsidian shard, making shard a fire based skill and chain a magicka/physical one.

That will gave the magicka DKs an option.

Armitas

Xvorg wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Yeaaaah DK so OP. We have sooo many dots that we can use in 1v1. Yeahhhhhh. Dosent matter our whip hits for 5k noodle. We can eventually wear the guy down right? Right?

WRONG.

MagDK fiercely battling gank blade. DK uses fire breath, searing strike. Yeah now all dots are on enemy. Lets hit him with whip. 5k 5K yeahhh. Now NB low. DK going to win!.

Le wild templar appears. Casts purge.

GG DK (TT).

Rant aside. With nerfs to proxy and now DB of smiting doing physical. Its the death of the magDK. Any mag class or any templar can purge pretty much all the dots you took 5 seconds or more to apply in a single button press. Whats worse is you are a sitting duck with 0 mobility and also relegated to using SnB to barely survive and try to kill people with wet noodle whip that hits for barely 5k. RIP magDK.

Good thing ive got a stamDK who is rocking his 2H and is looking forward to the physical DB of smiting to wreck stuff.

The problem with mag DK is not the execute. It is the total absesnce of a ranged spamable skill. In that case, I'll pretty much switch chains with odsidian shard, making shard a fire based skill and chain a magicka/physical one.

That will gave the magicka DKs an option.

In my opinion as a Magicka DK I can't see any value in adding a ranged primary damager like that. We would still have to be in close to complete the rest of our package. Obsidian shard would just be an unnecessary clone of what Force/Crushing shock would be. We don't need to unmake or hybridize the class we need to restore and complete it's current direction. I don't think anyone would care if obsidian shard went away, it's just not one of the things we are needing.

Lokey0024

Im glad this is actually being talked about, but basically either you're not understanding basic template design or thinking the class needs a reworking completely.

Magika dks have alot of tools to get fights to the end. What they are lacking is closing capability without the use of a ultimate, specifically meteor. Every other class, not 1, every other class has buffs, spamable attacks, and finishers. The basics. Now In an attempt to keep classes "unique" you don't give one of the classes a basic functionality? Its like giving a car brakes every 45 seconds to use once then wait another 45 seconds to stop again. Giving every class suprise attack or radiant destruction would be homogenizeing the classes, Not breaking functionality for the sake of class individuality.

Im probably just saying these things to forum trolls about now but hope someone with some pull actually reads this.

leepalmer95

Xvorg wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Make inferno the execute for dks. Treat it like assasins will and has to charge on certain attacks.

Lets be honest, noone will choose cauterize over skills in the resto tree or inner light because of the buffs provided. Stam Dk is holed into 2hd because of finishing power and rally. Magika dks dont have any finishing power besides a meteor combo, that if it doesnt hit takes 200 ult to try again.

with the flurry morph returning health and scattershot as well it could create build diversity.

Remove heal. Keep crit bonus, Make stam/magika morphs poison/fire, require charges, and gives bonus damage under 25% health. Think it could be fun.

The class that gets major brutality, major sorcery, major profecy, major savagery, major ward, major resolve, major fortitude, major endurance, major mending, and that can apply major defile to an enemy... needs and execute?

Sorry, but no.

I'm not even going to bother posting all the other class passives.

Major ward/resolves, every class has, most have better skills and other adds that have it.

Templars have it on a rune that lasts 15 secs. Forget about mobility since if you leave the house, it goes away 8 secs later. Sorcs last 15 secs, while DKs one lasts 20 and has a 3.5 secs shield

Major defile - 3 classes have, ours is a 250 cost ult which is basically useless in pvp.

Last time I checked, standard cost was 200. It is expensive, but it has a pretty strong synergy (and DoT)

In pvp it's pretty much useless, such a high cost may as well use meteor over it, the dot is ok but it's exactly worth worrying over.

Major mending - Cool having major mending without the heal. Templars have this with a skill that has far better utility

As stam DK, throw the shield, then vigor. Or even better, throw thge shield, then rally

Were talking about class heals here, dk has major mending but no heal.

Major Brutality - No one uses the major brutality aspect of the dk class skill, also nb's have access as well.

No archer DK? Compare that to a NB archer who wants to use Major Brutality and then snipe... no, he can't

Use rally like every other stamina build in the game, wtf is a nb archer, what does that even mean? Either use a pot or use rally, no one ever uses the major brutality from molten armaments. I'm not even sure what a nb has too do when were discussing dk skill/passives.

Major sorcery - Fair enough this is nice, it's not like sorc and nb's don't have access either.

To trigger MS in the case of a NB, you need to be near the enemy, which is useful for bombers, but no for ranged attacks, unless you slot entropy. In the case of sorcs, surge pretty much works like armaments, but it has no bonus to fully charged heavy attacks

Most dk's don't use the fully charged heavy attacks. Also with surge you heal from crit's. Nb's have access to it by spamming one of the best aoe's in the game. Why wouldn't a magicka nb slot sap? Even if their not a bomb build they should 100% slot it.

Major fortitude is near useless

granted, it needs to be reworked

Major Endurance doesn't stack with pots, useless.

I don't know if it is as useless as you mention. Think about a stam DK, or a tank

I'm thinking about dk's overall, it doesn't stack with pots so it's useless. The edurance on pots lasts like 45s. Also tanks block and don't regen stamina when they do.

Dk dmg is bad compare to every other class because dk's have to spec to survive and whip hits like a noodle. Why shouldn't they have access to a execute?

Because a class with all those buffs AND an execute will be too OP. Consider I have not even mentioned the minor buffs that work on par with the major buffs (igneous does not give you 20% extra wpn dmg, but 25% through the mountain blessing), and consider that stam 2H DK was, during a lot of time, the strongest build for duelling.

Still failing to see 'all those buff's'. Nb's/sorc/templars have a lot of buffs and all have executes. Also i don't think you've ever played a dk or you'd know mountain's blessing only affects allies.

If DKs want an execute, they should give away something

Dk's don't need to give anything, Dk's are missing a heal, mobility, execute, a gap closer that isn't useless because chains is basically useless. Bad dmg on their spam dps skill, no stamina morphs for their dps skill. Focus on dots where templars can purge very easily and nb's just cloak and ignore them.

Moglijuana

I don't really think I need an execute. What I need is one of my abilities to hit just a bit harder **cough** whip. I can't count how many times I pull a group of 2 or 3 enemies around a corner, time a proxy, deep breath, meteor, talons and get 2 out of the 3 people following me to like 5% health. I try and whip them to death and what usually happens is some heal bot waves his golden hand in the air and BAM all three scrubs in front of me are now at full health and I now have to set up an entire burst combo around my ultimate once again (that I just f**king used!).

MDKs either need something to help them stay in the fight longer to apply a bit more pressure (like dodge chance inside ash cloud), or just get a small 4-5% damage increase on their main spammable ability. If those were added, an execute wouldn't even be considered as a necessity for the class.