Dark Brotherhood Combat Changes

Xsorus

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

All 3 armor types must be desirable.

This right here is pretty funny considering you've just made Medium Armor the best and most appealing armor in the game. Even further reduced roll dodge costs with Well-Fitted, great damage with the Agility Passive (no other armor type in the game gets that or ANYTHING near a 12% increase to their main damage stat), great sustain with increased regen and reduced cost of abilities from the armor passives, and NOW a damage shield which functions the same way as Hardened Ward. Stamina builds were already able to mitigate a lot of damage or flat out avoid it with roll dodge and Shuffle, now you've just made it so they can roll dodge more and have a shield to eat damage if they need it on top of another way to avoid it in Shuffle.

Stamina Users aren't using Bone Shield on PTS because its pointless..you already have more then enough defense that you don't need a shield for baby sitting.....

Also no Medium armor user is going to use Well Fitted....If you use Well Fitted i'm going to instant kill you from stealth 100% of the time...

dagonbeer

@Wrobel Thank you for the write up. We might disagree (me from an armchair designer's perspective), but I certainly appreciate your hard work and communication!

Regarding shields, I like the idea of having major/minor type wards to prevent shield stacking the best. However, if the design team is set on balancing via duration, I have two main concerns:

1) PvE. I believe this change was made primarily to balance PvP, but it also affects PvE, from casual questing to vMA. Would you consider making the 2/3rd reduction to shield duration a Cyrodiil thing (along with half damage, extra hp, etc.?) This also a quality of life issue, since having constantly refresh shields (or any buff) is not fun. Also hurts use of pets, particularly in dungeons.

2) Sorc uniqueness. I understand trying to get the player to choose offense/defense in order to tone down sorcs, but the buff to annulment/bone shield baffles me. Every other class has unique survival tools (dks - battle roar/wings/tankiness, temps - heals/cleanses, nb - HoTs/stealth/fear, stam classes - evasion/dodge) but they suddenly all gained what used to be unique to sorcs, while one of the sorc's defining skills is made completely redundant, and gained nothing in return.

In fact, the other classes will gain far more from the new shields, in combination with reflects, (reliable) heals, evasion, etc.

Bonus petition!

If you're looking into improving PvE, I hope you look into replacing Bound Armor. We need the bonuses from Bound Armor to be close to competitive, however, it's no fun having toggles in the bar instead of active skills. Ideally you can roll the bonuses into a passive of sorts, and give us something fun in place of Bound Armor.

Amdar_Godkiller

Leingod wrote: »

Silver leash (not other morph) was niche and a cool way to get an individual to us. & CC replaced with a 40% snare? Gutted the skill completely. We all have access to gap-closers which do more than this.

Definitely taking this out of my repertoire

PS: News flash, excluding Meteor, Mage Guild skills were/and always have been extremely niche unless you count Entropy which was entirely used for Major Sorcery and Empower(for those who couldn't get them elsewhere)

Meanwhile, all of stam builds can't wait to switch to silver leash for damage bonuses.

Garwulf

All very well telling us that we have to time our shields etc but to do so you need a very low latency and little lag. Many of us have ping rates bordering on 300 ms when the going is good. Just about impossible to judge the right time unless you are a God with the ability to see the future. The only thing you can do is Spam, Spam, Spam a couple of skills , especially in PVP, and hope for the best.

StopDropAndBear

Fair enough on Damage Shields, but could we get a reduction to their resource cost to at least partially compensate?

hrothbern

"In this thread, we would like to give you some insights for some of the major combat changes in the Dark Brotherhood update....." Much appreciated !!!
"it’s most helpful to us when you support your ideas with specific details, math, and logic....."
I almost always try to
But can we ask you then as well to level a bit with us on more info. And show us now and then some ppt overviews, here or on ESO live, with player frequency rates of the whole endgame playerbase (not the Forum tigers here) on relevant hot topics.
For example Armor type, Stamina/Magicka choice, Class choices, etc, to get our realities more alligned. Much of our feedback, also intended to be very constructive and beneficial for the whole playerbase, is simply biased because we miss such info.
The better the shared reality, the better the working relationship can develop !

To the point:
First a point not raised by you:
In PTS the ability costs are between 5% and 15% higher than on live. IF that is intended, than it is a combat change as significant as the points you listed up. So.... is that intended ?
See the post here of @Asayre : http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2923104/#Comment_2923104


Heavy Armor
"A pillar of the ESO experience is freedom of exploration and being able to play how you want....." Agree very much
"All 3 armor types must be desirable......" Agree very much, please disclose CP-160 Armor 5+ type frequency rates at an ESO live.
"This means Heavy Armor needs to be useful for tanking, but also effective at dealing damage....."
I would rather have this like:
This means Heavy Armor needs to be absolutely fit for the Tanking Role in Raids, should be ok for "tanking" in PVP and should be ok for going Solo, like vMA as a "slow but sure" build.
I am absolutely fine with decoupling the second big Block Cost saving tool from HA and put that in traits.
Any class line, any Armor type, can now basically be used as platform to rig up a Role Tank or a blocking tanky build, by using S&B and Sturdy traits. Freedom of choice
As a minor "However": I would raise those traits to 4-5% because of the multiplicative way the effect is added to the S&B block cost savings. Or keep the 3% and add them additive to the S&B block cost savings.

Other on HA:
How about newbies that want to pick up a Tank Role and that have no or little CP's, playing the old Raids. Do you feel comfortable that that will be fun and they can grow into that role ?
I think that the future design of Raids, the future design determining what kind of Tank(s) are needed, is also very important in how much this HA and Blocking change will be a success.
With attention to how big the damage spike is of the Boss IF there are also many mobs around you.
IF that is too big, AND too difficult to predict from Boss mechanics, AND there are many mobs, we end up with perma-blocking and a big Stamina drain.


Improved Item Traits
"We want all item traits to be useful, and bosses to have more loot....." Good reasons and a good job

"We'd love it if you hopped on PTS and let us know what you think"
I am on PTS now with the templates testing what goes easier with templates.
Guess that next week or so I have my own builds and sets etc on PTS (ETA EU ?) and I can test other things, especially playing/combat comparison. A real "like for like" feel.
However. How much I love to help testing on PTS, this could be far more productive if ESO had a better UI with not only some scrolling combat values, but also a log etc. At this moment FTC does not function.
How do you guys internally in ESO test ? Do you use also third party Add-ons ?
Anyway, for PTS and daily debugging on live a homemade analysing ESO "Add-on" would be great to have and screenshots from the ESO Add-on figures would avoid unnecesary confusion in the communication.

Magdalina

Wrobel wrote: »

Damage Shields


Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

Are you sure sure that buffing shield stacking(and enabling it for ALL classes rather than just sorc with Annulment change) and giving stamina builds their own Hardened Ward on top of (endless) rolldodge and Shuffle is going to make players sacrifice defence in order to go offence?
Because in my eyes it's going to do the exact opposite.

Also, class balance. You seem to want all classes to basically be able to do everything while still staying unique in some way. For instance I actually really liked the healing changes in TG, BoL got nerfed but templars got Major Mending, sorcs finally got a class heal etc...that was fairly cool and it did not kill templar heals due to BoL being independent on pet hence still somewhat better+Major Mending+stamina restoring skills.
But now you're basically giving every class their own Hardened Ward, something that used to be unique to sorcs, and you're NOT giving sorcs anything in return(yes I did see the full list of sorc changes, the only change of value is Negate which dps sorcs can't afford to use anyway because we MUST use Overload to do at least somewhat competitive dps). So what is it that's unique and special that sorcs have going for them now, especially PvE-wise? What are those skills that'd make me think "omg, this is just so cool, I should totally roll a sorc just to try those out!"?

For templar, that'd be BoL, Shards, Repentance, free Major Mending. For DKs the tankiness, Battle Roar, great CC, also Major Mending. For NBs Cloak and any of the long list of spammable OP attacks+siphoning attacks resources return(+great passives).
For sorc... ... .... ...? And please don't say pets, 6 second Ward duration all but destroys pet builds(including healing ones, Twilight has 10k health, it's not worth babysitting her with a 6 second Ward; might as well just come on templar and spam BoL instead), not to mention where the AI still kind of sucks and most people don't like sacrificng 2-4 slots total for toggles. Overload also doesn't cut it, too buggy, requires 1k ulti to be used efficiently, is purely burst dps and can already be outdps'd my other classes who do not have to save 1k ulti to do it.

Feynn

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Rylana

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Only viable way? really mate? There aint a damn piece of content in this game that requires anything more than 15k DPS from any individual damage dealer. I can get that JUST by hard casting frags and weaving in velocious curses.

If by "viable" you mean "must meet some arbitrary minimum contrived number someone decided was pro, but is totally overkill and unnecessary" then sure, sorc doesnt have many options. But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

The Uninvited

Rylana wrote: »

But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

I love how you managed to sneak that into your comment. But you should change it into 9 minute vCoA, because of the nerf in Dark Brotherhood.

Tyrion87

Magdalina wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Damage Shields


Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

Are you sure sure that buffing shield stacking(and enabling it for ALL classes rather than just sorc with Annulment change) and giving stamina builds their own Hardened Ward on top of (endless) rolldodge and Shuffle is going to make players sacrifice defence in order to go offence?
Because in my eyes it's going to do the exact opposite.

Also, class balance. You seem to want all classes to basically be able to do everything while still staying unique in some way. For instance I actually really liked the healing changes in TG, BoL got nerfed but templars got Major Mending, sorcs finally got a class heal etc...that was fairly cool and it did not kill templar heals due to BoL being independent on pet hence still somewhat better+Major Mending+stamina restoring skills.
But now you're basically giving every class their own Hardened Ward, something that used to be unique to sorcs, and you're NOT giving sorcs anything in return(yes I did see the full list of sorc changes, the only change of value is Negate which dps sorcs can't afford to use anyway because we MUST use Overload to do at least somewhat competitive dps). So what is it that's unique and special that sorcs have going for them now, especially PvE-wise? What are those skills that'd make me think "omg, this is just so cool, I should totally roll a sorc just to try those out!"?

For templar, that'd be BoL, Shards, Repentance, free Major Mending. For DKs the tankiness, Battle Roar, great CC, also Major Mending. For NBs Cloak and any of the long list of spammable OP attacks+siphoning attacks resources return(+great passives).
For sorc... ... .... ...? And please don't say pets, 6 second Ward duration all but destroys pet builds(including healing ones, Twilight has 10k health, it's not worth babysitting her with a 6 second Ward; might as well just come on templar and spam BoL instead), not to mention where the AI still kind of sucks and most people don't like sacrificng 2-4 slots total for toggles. Overload also doesn't cut it, too buggy, requires 1k ulti to be used efficiently, is purely burst dps and can already be outdps'd my other classes who do not have to save 1k ulti to do it.

100% agree. And one more thing. Looking at the Wrobel's response I got an impression that they was thinking only from PvP point of view while deciding to make those changes, forgetting completely that such changes will affect PvE the most. Why nerfing the most defensive class skill, making it almost useless in most situations, with regard to PvE? Most people, including me, have proposed to leave the duration unchanged in PvE, and to connect the reduction (to 12 seconds though) in PvP with the battle spirit somehow. There is literally no reason to change the wards in PvE. The arguments were presented in many threads so far and I really hope ZOS read them and will take the feedback into account before introducing the changes to live server. Otherwise they will discourage many people to play their own game and some of them will quit cause their build/playstyle will be completely ruined and not fun for them anymore.

Septimus_Magna

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Reposting for visibility from sorc feedback thread:

Firstly, if you're a dev and you're reading this: thank you for the work you put in. It's not gone unnoticed. This game is amazing and I've loved it since the day it dropped. Hell, before that even! There's only one aspect of this patch that really bothers me, and judging by the wall of text that follows, I hope you can see how important this is to me.

For a game that focuses so heavily on build viability and diversity, it's kind of saddening that stamina sorcs got nerfed again.
I've run a khajiit stamina-sorc for literally years now, and I'll break it down to the devs why this PTS patch sorely nerfs one of the lowest end-game dps classes.

The thundering presence morph is great. It really is. BUT: it doesn't proc crit surge, it's an aoe that scales off of weapon damage and stamina now, which is nice, but when your main heal is derivitive of spike damage only (this needs to change as I can't even run rapid strikes on dw because of it), and saps us of major expidition, you can see why it's kind of a nerf... in a pvp setting at the very least.

Nerf in the sense that that "buff" was a trade-off for this class. We didn't get anything to compensate for a morph most of us won't use. After the wrecking blow nerf, we now also have to choose between the ONLY hard stamina cc we have available, or not coming in last place for any dps race... which we're still liable to do. I'm in the guild that completed vet maw, and pretty much every specialization besides stam sorc is able to push 28-32k dps. Sustained. I simply can't maintain/ compete with that even as is.

I don't even have empower available on any of my skills. Major Brutality galore! It's a shame though, because those don't stack. WB is still currently the only skill available that grants empower, which is still currently the only reason I can compete in any endgame content...

A possible solution I see to this issue is something that I feel is too commonly shrugged off.

Stam-poison-weapon-damage-scaling-crystal-frags-morph that grants empower when it's proc'd. Make it close-range only, and mimic the old wrecking blow...

Keep the CC, allow empower to only proc when the insta-cast is available. (Allow the insta-cast to proc off of stamina based skills). Or alternatively some kind of scaling where both morphs were based off of your higher stat... Like an overload scaling... Speaking of which, overload should do poison or physical damage for a stam sorc. Having to split CP in awkward ways to sustain end game dps #s is an eternal struggle for me in the current state.

It'd give us a good dps spike and CC in pvp, and it wouldn't cripple us in PVE. It wouldn't be spammable in pvp, either. Without a stamina CC, stam sorcs will be forced to choose between CC ing or having our main dps boon/ heal active. Even then, one bolt escape every 10 seconds won't change the tide of any fight. It'll force me to run magicka regen drinks.... which take a cut into my dps yet again...

The thundering presence morph, bound armaments, and crit surge stam morphs are all great, don't get me wrong, but we're the only class without a single target dps stam morph.

Read that again. The *only* class without a single target dps stam morph.

Not that it's necessarily viable to do so for their dps, but literally any other class could wb->stam jav/ jabs, or wb-> suprise attack, or wb-> stam whip/ unstable flames. Sorcs only have one option as is: wb-> wb
Or a heavy attack-> wb weave.

Point being, stam-sorcs just took a HUGE dps loss, and migrated some of our remaining dps into an area that won't proc our heals... We're going to be the jokes of DB, (esp. in IC and pvp settings ) and for such a fun playstyle... and being that it's my only main, I'm not even sure I'll be able to compete endgame content anymore. It's very disappointing and I'm not certain I'd continue to play if the natch potes don't get a little bit reworked for stam sorcs at the very least...


Hell, make the stam frags a copy cat of the old wb as far as scaling and functionality go! 1 second cast, knockback, empower, close range

I'm not sure how you guys will go about this, but I NEED to be able to run trials on my main...

Every class got stamina spec buffs.... Why don't stam sorcs ever get any love? We're build diversity personified! Whatever happened to the sword-wielding casters of elderscrolls past? Plz rework wb... Give me a stam curse/ frags combo or *something* for pvp.

I love this game and really don't want to get left behind in buffs/ take unintended nerfs. Thank you for your time and I hope I didn't sound disrespectful. I really appreciate the work you guys do.

ZOS and stam sorcs is a touchy subject.

hrothbern

hrothbern wrote: »

Other on HA:
How about newbies that want to pick up a Tank Role and that have no or little CP's, playing the old Raids. Do you feel comfortable that that will be fun and they can grow into that role ?

A post with my own quote... not perfect... but for newbies that have no CP and want to pick up the Tank Role and considering the overall effect of Stamina Recovery nerf and taking away Bracing from HA.....
I think it will be very, very tough on them. Too tough.

This keeps unsettling my head.

The ESO experience for a newbie that levels slowly by doing all quests and side quests and Tanks in the Pledge Dungeons along the way of his progression. The ESO experience for someone enjoying RPG fully and aiming at a Tank Role along the way.
No grinding speed levelling, no CP's, few Skill Points available, few Armor passives available, no big progress yet in crafting, no handsome Recovery sets available in a great fashion, no SA yet, no Inhale yet, not yet having Sturdy traits learned for all gear....

It seems too tough for me.
I cannot contribute here with Math or tested facts or hard logic, is only an educated feeling.
But perhaps some players that are doing this can tell that it is tough but allright.
And perhaps you can see from your internal datamining statistics that it is not really an issue.

Anyway... if it is an issue...
What can be done about it, without disturbing the endgame balance desired ?

The only suggestion that pops up in my mind now is:
For "zero" CP accounts: Give level 1 98% Stamina Recovery while Blocking, level 2 96%, ......, level 48 4%, level 49 2%, level 50 0%.
By this a player grows slowly into the endgame level.
And for "zero" CP accounts.... Why not rewarding every level increase not only with 1 Skill Point, but 1 CP as well ?

I think something along these lines will make the game more enjoyable for fresh blood, the complete newbies.

Magdalina

Rylana wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Only viable way? really mate? There aint a damn piece of content in this game that requires anything more than 15k DPS from any individual damage dealer. I can get that JUST by hard casting frags and weaving in velocious curses.

If by "viable" you mean "must meet some arbitrary minimum contrived number someone decided was pro, but is totally overkill and unnecessary" then sure, sorc doesnt have many options. But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

It won't make sorcs unviable in PvE(...if nothing else then because PvE is so damn easy and they're nerfing it moar with DB, but whatever), you're right there.

But it will take away the one unique great thing we had going for us in PvE. Shields are great in PvE. They let you keep dps-ing without ever needing heals, allowing your healer to go full dps and tank not worry about an ad that ran loose. They let you stay alive when a boss bugs out, ignores taunt and comes to give you a pat of love. They let you stand in red and res safely(yes, some people still die...it happens ). They let you underman/solo stuff with ease, or carry bad groups through. It lets you focus on dps(which is already rather mediocre compared to other classes) rather than avoiding damage. We have no good group utility, no reliable selfheals(Surge is great...when the heal procs. When it doesn't, you die. That's not what I call "reliable"), no spammable dps skill, no group heals that don't depend on a pet with 10k health(babysitting her with 20 second Ward is alright, babysitting her with 6 second Ward is just ridiculous)...

Will we still be able to compete content as a sorc? Oh yeah sure. But why would you want to if virtually any other class can do it better(=faster, more efficiently and with providing better utility to their group) in any role?

Rylana

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

I love how you managed to sneak that into your comment. But you should change it into 9 minute vCoA, because of the nerf in Dark Brotherhood.

8 minutes or bust.

Rylana

Magdalina wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Only viable way? really mate? There aint a damn piece of content in this game that requires anything more than 15k DPS from any individual damage dealer. I can get that JUST by hard casting frags and weaving in velocious curses.

If by "viable" you mean "must meet some arbitrary minimum contrived number someone decided was pro, but is totally overkill and unnecessary" then sure, sorc doesnt have many options. But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

It won't make sorcs unviable in PvE(...if nothing else then because PvE is so damn easy and they're nerfing it moar with DB, but whatever), you're right there.

But it will take away the one unique great thing we had going for us in PvE. Shields are great in PvE. They let you keep dps-ing without ever needing heals, allowing your healer to go full dps and tank not worry about an ad that ran loose. They let you stay alive when a boss bugs out, ignores taunt and comes to give you a pat of love. They let you stand in red and res safely(yes, some people still die...it happens ). They let you underman/solo stuff with ease, or carry bad groups through. It lets you focus on dps(which is already rather mediocre compared to other classes) rather than avoiding damage. We have no good group utility, no reliable selfheals(Surge is great...when the heal procs. When it doesn't, you die. That's not what I call "reliable"), no spammable dps skill, no group heals that don't depend on a pet with 10k health(babysitting her with 20 second Ward is alright, babysitting her with 6 second Ward is just ridiculous)...

Will we still be able to compete content as a sorc? Oh yeah sure. But why would you want to if virtually any other class can do it better(=faster, more efficiently and with providing better utility to their group) in any role?

Thing about shields is though, they can be anim canceled. They are pretty cheap, especially harness in PvE (most crap thrown at you is magicka based bar the occasional WB or Snipe spamming npc.... sounds like PvP a bit here...) and that just keeps that sustain going, Hardened and healing ward arent even essentials.

Like dont get me wrong, I am a hardcore PvPer, I only PvE when I need something (undaunted, a drop, some XP, a skillpoint from an undone vet dungeon quest, etc). I may not be a paragon of knowledge of all things Dungeon, but what I do know, is the few times a month I run dungeons, I barely ever have to cast my shields except v bosses and only if healer sucks. Otherwise its just DPS spam and dont stand in stupid (usually overload/curse/procfrag/entropy shenanigans). I really dont see how a six second shield is honestly going to hurt PvE at all. All dem dere pro 30k DPS sorcs just throw hardened ward on their overload bar, hit it in between overloads, no real DPS loss.

Van_0S

I will say it again, ZOS!!!
I love the vampire changes in this patch!

Now, I can feel that I am vampire like each skill used will make me more of a vampire while on the other hand drinking on victims blood will lessen my vampirism.

Very good!! Keep it up!

anitajoneb17_ESO

Thanks a lot, Mr. @Wrobel , for taking the time to share all this insight.

GRYM.LOCKE

Wrobel wrote: »

In this thread, we would like to give you some insights for some of the major combat changes in the Dark Brotherhood update. We are excited to get these changes into your hands, and hope you’ll hop on PTS to see them in action for yourself! When giving your feedback, it’s most helpful to us when you support your ideas with specific details, math, and logic.

Heavy Armor
A pillar of the ESO experience is freedom of exploration and being able to play how you want..
.

"Play the way we Want"

This is Exactly why the Shield changes are now preventing us from doing so in PVE

We make a Build and make it work then we need to make a new one but Things like Shields should be of limits and not changed in any negative way

The one Aspect about ESO is Play the class you like "How" you like

Any class Can be DPS
Any Class can be Tank
Any class can be Healer

Difference between Balance and a Nerf "A Negative change with no positive aspect is not balance"

Shields in PVE make certain classes able to survive encounters that you would not be able to normally but 6 seconds is changing it for a negative with no change and to be honest (even i you may not be) this is a PVP change this needs to be sorted now before this nonsense goes any further

Keep 6 seconds for PVP if you wish but Leave PVE shield skill as is or minimum 12 seconds + change Bastion

Alternatively one suggestion which was amazing was change Bastion, you did ask for us to commit didnt you ? So let us sink points into Bastion C-P Trait = Adds Duration And Strength to the Damage Shield etc

100 points - back up to 20 seconds etc


Quick note on Vampire changes

Why have we not got any 3/4/5 Skill ? With the new of changes I was expecting it to go from 2+u to 5+u

Any reason why?

Skorol007

I am very happy we get to have this kind of feedback from you guys, hope it will keep happening in the future!

So far I am very happy with this patch but we'll see how it goes in the near future

Roymachine

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Reposting for visibility from sorc feedback thread:

Firstly, if you're a dev and you're reading this: thank you for the work you put in. It's not gone unnoticed. This game is amazing and I've loved it since the day it dropped. Hell, before that even! There's only one aspect of this patch that really bothers me, and judging by the wall of text that follows, I hope you can see how important this is to me.

For a game that focuses so heavily on build viability and diversity, it's kind of saddening that stamina sorcs got nerfed again.
I've run a khajiit stamina-sorc for literally years now, and I'll break it down to the devs why this PTS patch sorely nerfs one of the lowest end-game dps classes.

The thundering presence morph is great. It really is. BUT: it doesn't proc crit surge, it's an aoe that scales off of weapon damage and stamina now, which is nice, but when your main heal is derivitive of spike damage only (this needs to change as I can't even run rapid strikes on dw because of it), and saps us of major expidition, you can see why it's kind of a nerf... in a pvp setting at the very least.

Nerf in the sense that that "buff" was a trade-off for this class. We didn't get anything to compensate for a morph most of us won't use. After the wrecking blow nerf, we now also have to choose between the ONLY hard stamina cc we have available, or not coming in last place for any dps race... which we're still liable to do. I'm in the guild that completed vet maw, and pretty much every specialization besides stam sorc is able to push 28-32k dps. Sustained. I simply can't maintain/ compete with that even as is.

I don't even have empower available on any of my skills. Major Brutality galore! It's a shame though, because those don't stack. WB is still currently the only skill available that grants empower, which is still currently the only reason I can compete in any endgame content...

A possible solution I see to this issue is something that I feel is too commonly shrugged off.

Stam-poison-weapon-damage-scaling-crystal-frags-morph that grants empower when it's proc'd. Make it close-range only, and mimic the old wrecking blow...

Keep the CC, allow empower to only proc when the insta-cast is available. (Allow the insta-cast to proc off of stamina based skills). Or alternatively some kind of scaling where both morphs were based off of your higher stat... Like an overload scaling... Speaking of which, overload should do poison or physical damage for a stam sorc. Having to split CP in awkward ways to sustain end game dps #s is an eternal struggle for me in the current state.

It'd give us a good dps spike and CC in pvp, and it wouldn't cripple us in PVE. It wouldn't be spammable in pvp, either. Without a stamina CC, stam sorcs will be forced to choose between CC ing or having our main dps boon/ heal active. Even then, one bolt escape every 10 seconds won't change the tide of any fight. It'll force me to run magicka regen drinks.... which take a cut into my dps yet again...

The thundering presence morph, bound armaments, and crit surge stam morphs are all great, don't get me wrong, but we're the only class without a single target dps stam morph.

Read that again. The *only* class without a single target dps stam morph.

Not that it's necessarily viable to do so for their dps, but literally any other class could wb->stam jav/ jabs, or wb-> suprise attack, or wb-> stam whip/ unstable flames. Sorcs only have one option as is: wb-> wb
Or a heavy attack-> wb weave.

Point being, stam-sorcs just took a HUGE dps loss, and migrated some of our remaining dps into an area that won't proc our heals... We're going to be the jokes of DB, (esp. in IC and pvp settings ) and for such a fun playstyle... and being that it's my only main, I'm not even sure I'll be able to compete endgame content anymore. It's very disappointing and I'm not certain I'd continue to play if the natch potes don't get a little bit reworked for stam sorcs at the very least...


Hell, make the stam frags a copy cat of the old wb as far as scaling and functionality go! 1 second cast, knockback, empower, close range

I'm not sure how you guys will go about this, but I NEED to be able to run trials on my main...

Every class got stamina spec buffs.... Why don't stam sorcs ever get any love? We're build diversity personified! Whatever happened to the sword-wielding casters of elderscrolls past? Plz rework wb... Give me a stam curse/ frags combo or *something* for pvp.

I love this game and really don't want to get left behind in buffs/ take unintended nerfs. Thank you for your time and I hope I didn't sound disrespectful. I really appreciate the work you guys do.

What sounds really good to me and would solve a lot of issues is to rework Mage's Wrath (morph of Mage's Fury) to be a buff that makes your weapon have a % chance to proc Mage's Fury on hit, executes at the same percentage, and restore Stamina on kill. Also, change Critical Surge to a stamina morph.

HeroOfNone

Just 2 notes:

Vampires: I like the changes, but still feels you're missing an ability to make it interesting as werewolf. Also, please add some fangs, I don't need my khajiit to look like an albino twilight fan =/

Templars: The change you did with drain health "snapshotting" health is the EXACT fix that radiant destruction needs. Make the damage based on the health when it's cast, don't allow it to stack execution damage if your target was above 50% when it was cast. This will make the skill a bit more skillful to use.

Ajaxduo

Enjoying most of the changes so far but cost increase is a big no no, I hope this gets revised.

pema

I like most changes. I realy don't like the new way IC is setup but it's hard to test right now as the whole campain is red.
Other then that I realy realy realy miss a stamina selfheal.
It's not cool to ask people to PVP as an only way to get it.
A change to blood altar would have been easily made and made the skill usefull again...
Also you guys are not taking care of the position the templar has as only stamina providing character.

These two points are what I feel has been overlooked and if not then please tell us why they are as they are.

Other then that so far I can only say yeey, and hope to see the eu chars soon so I can actualy test

starlizard70ub17_ESO

I understand the devs can't do everything at one time. Still I like what I see and think its a few steps in the right direction.

Jesh

I applaud @Wrobel for this post. I think that laying out the philosophy behind larger patches and changes is a great way to communicate to your playerbase. Bravo.
Regarding the combat changes, overall I am rather impressed with the revamp. I like nearly all the changes but would like to point out a few things:
*Damage Shields - "...this change allows damage shields to be strong..." - This is simply not the case for the DK damage shield (Obsidian/Igneous/Fragmented), it is not strong enough, and the utility it provides is not worthwhile or just too minor.
*Heavy Armor - others have noted and described, more eloquently and in more detail than I ever could, how the removal of Bracing can not be made up for with the Sturdy trait (additive vs multiplicative issue) and also that the Constitution Passive cooldown will create some issues. I like the direction HA is going, just needs some tweaks to really make it viable.
*Fighters Guild - making this skill line a resource for stamina builds is very smart. The Mages Guild line supports magica build so well that this was logical and symmetrical way to support stamina builds in the game. I see some people are upset with Dawnbreaker: if you must have a magic damage morph then I suggest also making a physical damage Meteor to get some cross-pollination going, but honestly I feel that this muddies the waters too much.
*I also think that DK's DragonBlood still needs to be reworked in some way.

Rohamad_Ali

It may not be perfect but I'm very pleased with the majority of these changes .

Derra

Wrobel wrote: »

Damage Shields
Damage shields are extremely powerful because they allow you to build your character fully towards offense while still retaining a strong defense. When adjusting damage shields, it was important to us that they remained powerful abilities that players love to use. We also wanted to maintain the diverse range of shield strengths in the game to avoid homogenization. Some damage shields like the Tri Focus Frost Staff passive give small damage shields, the Magma Shell ultimate gives an entire health bar, and Steadfast Ward gives a dynamic value based on the target’s health

Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

Ok Mr. @Wrobel i´ll quote myself from another topic:

Derra wrote: »

The problem is a NB for example does not let their guard down while playing offensively. Aswell as a templar or DK. They all have reliable high passive healing associated to their main DPS abilities.
If you have a reliable steady heal having reactionary defenses works (or an instant burstheal...).
However a sorc does not have that. Their defense is a shield with no reliable healing mechanics compared to other classes (no the pet is still unusable in pvp especially with the new ward changes).
This now results in sorc being the only class being 100% vulnerable when on the offense.

Alongside this sorcerers are the only class without access to strong DOT abilities (those reduce the need to be offensive constantly as they keep pressure on the enemy even while defensive abilities are casted) - as a consequence sorcerers need the highest offensive uptime to kill an enemy.

I agree that sorc burst builds were a little too potent (i have not played deto dawnbreaker myself as i don´t like 1 shotting ppl). But nerfing burst builds and then taking away the ability to constantly pressure aswell is a little over the top imho.
Why would a play a sorc now when i can just play my NB that has better burst, a better teleport, better CC and is safer to play at the same time?

Care to give insight to this?
No class has to make decisions because their dmging abilities have added passive defense (heals). Sorc has rgn surge heal that is not working reliably with their main spam dps ability because force shock and morphs are split into three hits of which only one can procc surge bc of the gcd on healing.
On top of that you have added passive healing to some stamina ability morphs with this patch.

So your statement of wanting players to choose between being offensive or defensive does not really make sense to me because as it currently stands the only class to have to make that decision is a sorcerer. Every other class can reliably combine offense and defense.

Joy_Division

Rylana wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Only viable way? really mate? There aint a damn piece of content in this game that requires anything more than 15k DPS from any individual damage dealer. I can get that JUST by hard casting frags and weaving in velocious curses.

If by "viable" you mean "must meet some arbitrary minimum contrived number someone decided was pro, but is totally overkill and unnecessary" then sure, sorc doesnt have many options. But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

It won't make sorcs unviable in PvE(...if nothing else then because PvE is so damn easy and they're nerfing it moar with DB, but whatever), you're right there.

But it will take away the one unique great thing we had going for us in PvE. Shields are great in PvE. They let you keep dps-ing without ever needing heals, allowing your healer to go full dps and tank not worry about an ad that ran loose. They let you stay alive when a boss bugs out, ignores taunt and comes to give you a pat of love. They let you stand in red and res safely(yes, some people still die...it happens ). They let you underman/solo stuff with ease, or carry bad groups through. It lets you focus on dps(which is already rather mediocre compared to other classes) rather than avoiding damage. We have no good group utility, no reliable selfheals(Surge is great...when the heal procs. When it doesn't, you die. That's not what I call "reliable"), no spammable dps skill, no group heals that don't depend on a pet with 10k health(babysitting her with 20 second Ward is alright, babysitting her with 6 second Ward is just ridiculous)...

Will we still be able to compete content as a sorc? Oh yeah sure. But why would you want to if virtually any other class can do it better(=faster, more efficiently and with providing better utility to their group) in any role?

Thing about shields is though, they can be anim canceled. They are pretty cheap, especially harness in PvE (most crap thrown at you is magicka based bar the occasional WB or Snipe spamming npc.... sounds like PvP a bit here...) and that just keeps that sustain going, Hardened and healing ward arent even essentials.

Like dont get me wrong, I am a hardcore PvPer, I only PvE when I need something (undaunted, a drop, some XP, a skillpoint from an undone vet dungeon quest, etc). I may not be a paragon of knowledge of all things Dungeon, but what I do know, is the few times a month I run dungeons, I barely ever have to cast my shields except v bosses and only if healer sucks. Otherwise its just DPS spam and dont stand in stupid (usually overload/curse/procfrag/entropy shenanigans). I really dont see how a six second shield is honestly going to hurt PvE at all. All dem dere pro 30k DPS sorcs just throw hardened ward on their overload bar, hit it in between overloads, no real DPS loss.

Someone hasn't given vMA a try yet ...

x5ofspadez

@Wrobel
The only major change that I have a personal issue with is the change to Harness Magicka. I would much rather have it only defend against Spell Damage and last 20 seconds. Hell even with the reduction in times, make it 12 seconds for only Spell Damage or you could take the 6 second full shield.