Help me understand animation canceling

Kemenril

Not a troll post, and hoping not to get flamed just because I'm bringing it up.

I've recently gotten back into the game, which I've found much improved since I left a year ago. I'm a PvPer at heart so I started looking around forums (here and outside) and have found a lot of talk about animation canceling. Watched some YouTube videos and...well, I'm pretty horrified, really.

Based on how long it's been around and the fact that there's not a rebellion going on with them, I'm guessing canceling is around for good. I can't fathom why people are OK with it, so maybe someone can try to help me understand why I should get into PvP if I don't play like a munchkin? It doesn't look optional at all from the look of it -- mechanically, it looks like it's night and day and anyone who doesn't do it is doomed. (Saw one where a guy dropped half a dozen DOTs in less than a second...how you could work with that is beyond me.)

I'm not a scrub -- I PvP competitively in GW2 on a ranked team -- but I'm kind of questioning whether this is something I want to explore in TESO.

Anyways, if anyone has some suggestions or perspective (have devs officially stated they're ever going to fix it?), I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

ToRelax

If you actually looked around you should know one can not use half a dozen skills within one second that way.

Amdar_Godkiller

As far as I'm aware, you cannot AC two skills directly into one another. You can AC a skill+weapon swap then repeat, and it will look like you just did two weapon's swaps. I do this to apply buffs, but you could apply DoT easily enough as well.

Serenityx

I wish I could answer your question OP. The only skill I know of that can be animation canceled is wrecking blow.... and I'm only able to make it work myself by casting it in the middle of a heavy attack where as others can manage to get 2-3 light attacks in while the wb ability is still casting. I honestly don't even completely understand what animation canceling does to allow this. Can you link the video/source of the person animation canceling DOTs? It'd be interesting to know what other abilitys people are doing this with.

nordsavage

Abilities, even ones that say instant, have what you could call a "cast time" by animation movement. Animation cancel neutralizes the movement and allows the effect without impediment. When done in succession you increase dps by laying down abilities at a more rapid pace. By "weaving" an ability and weapons swap the same way you can weave crushing shock and a staff attack is one way of doing this.

kadar

Wow! There's... A lot of misinformation out there...like @ToRelax said, some of the more outlandish things people claim you can do with animation canceling are simply untrue. Compound this with a laggy cyrodiil and people start seeing Ghosts everywhere.

Try a light attack with staff. You have 2 choices. You can let your characters arm extend, point the staff, let loose a fireball, retract the staff, and relax, and THEN cast an ability like crushing shock. OR, you can start the light attack and then immediately cast your spell.
Both have the same end result, with your opponent being hit by both your light attack and a spell. The second is an example of animation canceling. It just... Speeds up the casting.

You can only animation cancel in certain ways. You can't AC an ability with another ability.

The devs don't intend to "fix" it because it's not broken. It's not a bug or an exploit. AC is possible because of the way ESO's global cool down functions. Dodge roll, block, light/heavy attack, and bash operate outside of the GCD that skills share.

IMO, AC adds depth and flavor to the game.

Kemenril

Thanks for the responses.

I did a little bit more research and playing with AC and think I understand it a little better. I'm able to do it in PvE and have tried doing it a few times in PvP, but PvP is clearly where the AC jockeys shine, because I'm getting out-attacked in terms of speed by about 3 to 1.

So I think I have a little more experience than when I first posted.

Guys...it's still pretty wack.

I'm not sure how a character who is halfway through a light attack animation who Quicksilver-jumps to a skill execution is supposed to be anything but fringe-cheaty. Some people have developed this quasi-mythology that it is more skillful or that it's a more "pure" form of combat or that it's a reflection of where games are going.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Try a light attack with staff. You have 2 choices. You can let your characters arm extend, point the staff, let loose a fireball, retract the staff, and relax, and THEN cast an ability like crushing shock. OR, you can start the light attack and then immediately cast your spell.
Both have the same end result, with your opponent being hit by both your light attack and a spell. The second is an example of animation canceling. It just... Speeds up the casting.

A Macro accomplishes the exact same thing. This is just manual macro-ing that bypasses character animation design by being super-twitchy.

Anyways. Some people clearly like this system. I'm jealous of them, because I'd frankly love to keep playing this game. But, come on guys. It's clearly an unintended consequence that people are retconning as a virtue. Most of us have played lots of games and know a loophole when we see one. That's what this is, plain and simple.

Not my cup of tea, and not the kind of game I'm likely to support, if devs have no intention of fixing it.

Kemenril

Also...the so-called "Lefty Swap" (LA > Skill > Weapon Swap > Bash) feels like a straight-up bug exploit. No other MMO PvP allows chaining that fast without some kind of GCD. It also looks pretty dumb.

kadar

I'm not sure how a character who is halfway through a light attack animation who Quicksilver-jumps to a skill execution is supposed to be anything but fringe-cheaty. Some people have developed this quasi-mythology that it is more skillful or that it's a more "pure" form of combat or that it's a reflection of where games are going.

Understandable that it feels fringe-cheaty just coming across it for the fist time.

I actually started doing it completely by accident as a way to build ultimate (light attacks) without compromising my skill rotation. And I've been doing it so long it feels completely normal, flowing quite nicely. I'm not hammering on keys willy-nilly just waiting for global cooldowns like it was with Wow. It's a very precise timing of clicks followed by keystrokes.

Part of my DPS rotation for PVE and PVP involves cancelling light attacks with surprise attack for maximum DPS + Ultimate generation, and honestly I can't imagine not weaving those light attacks in there. At least with AC there is timing involved. Take that away, and it's just simply a button pound.

Anyone remember the Arcane Mage from Wow circa Wrath/Cata? Max DPS rotation : 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,potion,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1. I don't want that for ESO, and animation cancelling provides a (small) layer of depth, and an added element to perfect.

kadar

Kemenril wrote: »

Also...the so-called "Lefty Swap" (LA > Skill > Weapon Swap > Bash) feels like a straight-up bug exploit. No other MMO PvP allows chaining that fast without some kind of GCD. It also looks pretty dumb.

I haven't been on the PTS to test it, but ZOS is implimenting an "animation priority" of sorts. As I understand, it's supposed to clean up the dumb look that AC causes by showing each animation that is cast instead of cancelling part of it.

Kemenril

One thing that I should probably clarify in my comments is that I don't really blame players for doing this -- so when I say "exploit" and "cheat", those terms don't apply in their truest sense, since the system design clearly allows it. Based on what Zen has been saying, I completely understand why some players believe that AC is WAI and nothing is amiss.

kadar

@Kemenril
Just saw this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/237015/what-animation-cancelling-is-detailed-explanation#latest

NoFlash

It is in the game to stay. If you pvp, there will always be a learning curve. Once you get the hang of pvp and animation canceling, it will become second nature.

I practice my canceling doing daily dungeons and it carries over well into PvP.


Hope this helps! Cheers and good luck!!