Zos can you disable buff stacking from different weapons

Avenias

Stacking buffs using diff weapons is broken. If your current wep has a skill line that buffs you, that buff should only be applicable for that weapon and not another weapon type.

ToRelax

Well that's how it used to be... then we got the buff system.

Detector

No. Buff-System work is fine.

krathos

Avenias wrote: »

Stacking buffs using diff weapons is broken. If your current wep has a skill line that buffs you, that buff should only be applicable for that weapon and not another weapon type.

What would this solve? I don't even see a real problem here. Provide some examples for how this is broken instead of just whining.

GreenSoup2HoT

So every stam build would be even more so forced to use 2h. No thank you

ColoursYouHave

I think the current system is fine. This would really discourage people from weapon swapping all together, which I think would take away some of the depth of the combat system.

ToRelax

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

So every stam build would be even more so forced to use 2h. No thank you

If that would be the outcome, then other weapon trees would have to be buffed. I think it is limiting build diversity to allow players to buff one weapon line with buffs from another. It leads to fotm builds because you just use whatever gives the largest buffs to the weapon you actually deal damage with. I would much rather see combinations based on wich attacks and utility skills synergize well.

strikeback1247

ToRelax wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

So every stam build would be even more so forced to use 2h. No thank you

If that would be the outcome, then other weapon trees would have to be buffed. I think it is limiting build diversity to allow players to buff one weapon line with buffs from another. It leads to fotm builds because you just use whatever gives the largest buffs to the weapon you actually deal damage with. I would much rather see combinations based on wich attacks and utility skills synergize well.

What I can see happening with this change is that people will only be using the 1 strongest weapon without switching to other weapons. Being able to combine two weapons and use them kind of together promotes build diversity in my opinion.

ToRelax

strikeback1247 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

So every stam build would be even more so forced to use 2h. No thank you

If that would be the outcome, then other weapon trees would have to be buffed. I think it is limiting build diversity to allow players to buff one weapon line with buffs from another. It leads to fotm builds because you just use whatever gives the largest buffs to the weapon you actually deal damage with. I would much rather see combinations based on wich attacks and utility skills synergize well.

What I can see happening with this change is that people will only be using the 1 strongest weapon without switching to other weapons. Being able to combine two weapons and use them kind of together promotes build diversity in my opinion.

As I said, the weapon trees would have to be balanced. What weapon buffs should combine with is class buffs (again, as they did prior to 1.6 >_> ), in order to diversify the different classes using the same weapon. Right now, you often have a secondary weapon (that is not a resto staff) mostly acting as a buff to the primary weapon, instead of actually influencing a player's strategy in fight by inciting him to combine attacks and utilities from both of his weapons.

Lucius_Aelius

I don't see this as being an issue, and it would discourage Weapon swapping to do as you suggest so I don't think that's a good idea at all, especially as a fix for something that isn't even remotely a real problem.

Vangy

OP must be magicka. You get your buffs from mages guild dude.... 50% of my toons are stamina and major brutality is locked into 2h.

How about we move ur major sorcery into destro staff. Now you HAVE to use destro staff or pots to get your buffs. No more dw pew pew overload sorcs or dw magblades. Heck even healers cant get major sorcery now cos we moved the buff to destro staff. You likey?

AfkNinja

Avenias wrote: »

Stacking buffs using diff weapons is broken. If your current wep has a skill line that buffs you, that buff should only be applicable for that weapon and not another weapon type.

Your idea is terrible.

Emma_Overload

I don't even understand the nature of the OP's complaint. Buffs are buffs. They last a certain amount of time and then need to be refreshed. What difference does it make which weapon line you get them from? There are also class skill lines that give buffs, like Surge, for example. Should Surge be changed so that it only gives a spell damage buff on attacks from the Sorcerer's Storm Calling skill tree?

GreenSoup2HoT

@Emma_Eunjung

The biggest problem for stamina user's is 2H Rally. It is so good that is becomes pretty much mandatory. PvE can work around this but many in pvp still feel its a must have.

If Rally only effected 2H abilitys for instance. You would possibly see more people running different combinations of weapons and ability's compared to all the 2H + 1 builds.

If this got implemented, a lot of nightblades may drop 2H and go DW + 1 etc. I personally would go for a DW/Bow build.

This is also why many have considered Rally be moved to fighters guild so its not so build restrictive.

Vangy

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung

The biggest problem for stamina user's is 2H Rally. It is so good that is becomes pretty much mandatory. PvE can work around this but many in pvp still feel its a must have.

If Rally only effected 2H abilitys for instance. You would possibly see more people running different combinations of weapons and ability's compared to all the 2H + 1 builds.

If this got implemented, a lot of nightblades may drop 2H and go DW + 1 etc. I personally would go for a DW/Bow build.

This is also why many have considered Rally be moved to fighters guild so its not so build restrictive.

Even if rally were moved to fighters guild, the only class it truly frees up is stamblades. Stamsorcs still need crit rush. Stam dks still need crit rush/stampede. Templars still need 2h gap closer.... Literally any stam toon without a functioning gap closer that is not using SnB needs 2h. You could arguably make all these builds work with other weapon set ups but stampede and crit rush are pretty solid gap closers that are stamina based. I know on my stamDK for instance, I want to save all my magicka for wings and ingenous over using the stupid buggy chains as a gap closer. Add to that, malestrom 2hs are pretty epic compared to the maelstrom daggers/swords/maces for PvP...

Its just how 2H is set up vs DW for stamina PvP.

1. Flurry vs WB as main spender... ***.. its not even a competition. WB is pretty much almost instant with some sick range. Flurry takes forever and does most of its damage on last tick. Any1 with half a brain is going to CC you or get away from you during its cast.

2. WB has CC. DW has no hard CCs.

3. 2H has a gap closer to assist classes that lack one (or lack a functioning gap closer). DW has a ranged attack but meh..

4. The icing on the cake that pretty much seals the deal is rally. Heal + major brut.


To put it simply, DW is far superior in PVE where an extra set item + more weapon damage truly makes a difference. 2H is just superior in PvP due to the sheer utility with gap closer, hard CC + heal/buffs it brings. 2H is an all in one care package for stam toons since most stam toons have almost 0 class abilities they can rely on. My DK for example, is using wings & igneous from DK skill line. That's about it. Sometimes I slot fossilize or leap/standard but lately ive just been running without them. I need a gap closer, I need heals (not just vigor) and I need a hard CC. 2H triple kills all of my needs =D

ToRelax

.

Vangy wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung

The biggest problem for stamina user's is 2H Rally. It is so good that is becomes pretty much mandatory. PvE can work around this but many in pvp still feel its a must have.

If Rally only effected 2H abilitys for instance. You would possibly see more people running different combinations of weapons and ability's compared to all the 2H + 1 builds.

If this got implemented, a lot of nightblades may drop 2H and go DW + 1 etc. I personally would go for a DW/Bow build.

This is also why many have considered Rally be moved to fighters guild so its not so build restrictive.

Even if rally were moved to fighters guild, the only class it truly frees up is stamblades. Stamsorcs still need crit rush. Stam dks still need crit rush/stampede. Templars still need 2h gap closer.... Literally any stam toon without a functioning gap closer that is not using SnB needs 2h. You could arguably make all these builds work with other weapon set ups but stampede and crit rush are pretty solid gap closers that are stamina based. I know on my stamDK for instance, I want to save all my magicka for wings and ingenous over using the stupid buggy chains as a gap closer. Add to that, malestrom 2hs are pretty epic compared to the maelstrom daggers/swords/maces for PvP...

Its just how 2H is set up vs DW for stamina PvP.

1. Flurry vs WB as main spender... ***.. its not even a competition. WB is pretty much almost instant with some sick range. Flurry takes forever and does most of its damage on last tick. Any1 with half a brain is going to CC you or get away from you during its cast.

2. WB has CC. DW has no hard CCs.

3. 2H has a gap closer to assist classes that lack one (or lack a functioning gap closer). DW has a ranged attack but meh..

4. The icing on the cake that pretty much seals the deal is rally. Heal + major brut.


To put it simply, DW is far superior in PVE where an extra set item + more weapon damage truly makes a difference. 2H is just superior in PvP due to the sheer utility with gap closer, hard CC + heal/buffs it brings. 2H is an all in one care package for stam toons since most stam toons have almost 0 class abilities they can rely on. My DK for example, is using wings & igneous from DK skill line. That's about it. Sometimes I slot fossilize or leap/standard but lately ive just been running without them. I need a gap closer, I need heals (not just vigor) and I need a hard CC. 2H triple kills all of my needs =D

Shield Charge is pretty solid actually, but yes, weapon skills would have to be balanced out. On their own, dualwield and bow are really underperforming, except when played by a class that can make up for their weaknesses (i.e. NB).

Vangy

@ToRelax

Yes most of my tanky setups use SNB and therefore shield charge. The knock down is pretty solid. But the presumption of my argument for DW vs 2H was if someone dosent want to run SNB (refer to my bolded quote below). Weapon lines are getting a rework in DB (or at least ZOS did mention it somewhere in ESO live). So hopefully DB will open up the world of stam to a realm of possibilites! Maybe even weapon uts!!!! (drrrrrroooool)

Vangy wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung

The biggest problem for stamina user's is 2H Rally. It is so good that is becomes pretty much mandatory. PvE can work around this but many in pvp still feel its a must have.

If Rally only effected 2H abilitys for instance. You would possibly see more people running different combinations of weapons and ability's compared to all the 2H + 1 builds.

If this got implemented, a lot of nightblades may drop 2H and go DW + 1 etc. I personally would go for a DW/Bow build.

This is also why many have considered Rally be moved to fighters guild so its not so build restrictive.

Even if rally were moved to fighters guild, the only class it truly frees up is stamblades. Stamsorcs still need crit rush. Stam dks still need crit rush/stampede. Templars still need 2h gap closer.... Literally any stam toon without a functioning gap closer that is not using SnB needs 2h. You could arguably make all these builds work with other weapon set ups but stampede and crit rush are pretty solid gap closers that are stamina based. I know on my stamDK for instance, I want to save all my magicka for wings and ingenous over using the stupid buggy chains as a gap closer. Add to that, malestrom 2hs are pretty epic compared to the maelstrom daggers/swords/maces for PvP...

Its just how 2H is set up vs DW for stamina PvP.

1. Flurry vs WB as main spender... ***.. its not even a competition. WB is pretty much almost instant with some sick range. Flurry takes forever and does most of its damage on last tick. Any1 with half a brain is going to CC you or get away from you during its cast.

2. WB has CC. DW has no hard CCs.

3. 2H has a gap closer to assist classes that lack one (or lack a functioning gap closer). DW has a ranged attack but meh..

4. The icing on the cake that pretty much seals the deal is rally. Heal + major brut.


To put it simply, DW is far superior in PVE where an extra set item + more weapon damage truly makes a difference. 2H is just superior in PvP due to the sheer utility with gap closer, hard CC + heal/buffs it brings. 2H is an all in one care package for stam toons since most stam toons have almost 0 class abilities they can rely on. My DK for example, is using wings & igneous from DK skill line. That's about it. Sometimes I slot fossilize or leap/standard but lately ive just been running without them. I need a gap closer, I need heals (not just vigor) and I need a hard CC. 2H triple kills all of my needs =D

ColoursYouHave

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung

The biggest problem for stamina user's is 2H Rally. It is so good that is becomes pretty much mandatory. PvE can work around this but many in pvp still feel its a must have.

If Rally only effected 2H abilitys for instance. You would possibly see more people running different combinations of weapons and ability's compared to all the 2H + 1 builds.

If this got implemented, a lot of nightblades may drop 2H and go DW + 1 etc. I personally would go for a DW/Bow build.

This is also why many have considered Rally be moved to fighters guild so its not so build restrictive.

If Rally only effected 2H abilities, you would probably see a looooooot of people running Crit Charge, Wrecking Blow, Executioner, and Rally. Making Rally only work when you have a 2H equipped won't cause people to think "well, since Rally only effects 2H abilities I should probably drop Rally and use something else", it'll cause them to think "well, since Rally only effects 2H abilities, I better double bar 2H."

If anything, making this change would make builds even more restrictive. Right now, at least people only need to use 2H on one bar to get Rally, and can use the other bar for something else. With this change, and how strong of a skill Rally is, it would just force people to replace their secondary weapon with another 2H.

kadar

Let's all agree to fix things that ARE broken, before we address the things that aren't.

ToRelax

The_Outsider wrote: »

Let's all agree to fix things that ARE broken, before we address the things that aren't.

Horrible argument in this context. You aren't actually suggesting dualwield is competitive with two hand (outside spin2win)?

Also, (not directed at you specifically) it some people think that freedom to combine options always translates into build diversity. It couldn't be further from the truth, as that promotes generally best options - wich leads to fotm builds.
You may be right that making Rally only work for two hand bars would at first incentivize players more to use two hand as their main weapon. But that would obviously not be the case if the weapon lines would be more balanced, which is what I am talking about.

Vangy

ToRelax wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Let's all agree to fix things that ARE broken, before we address the things that aren't.

Horrible argument in this context. You aren't actually suggesting dualwield is competitive with two hand (outside spin2win)?

Also, (not directed at you specifically) it some people think that freedom to combine options always translates into build diversity. It couldn't be further from the truth, as that promotes generally best options - wich leads to fotm builds.
You may be right that making Rally only work for two hand bars would at first incentivize players more to use two hand as their main weapon. But that would obviously not be the case if the weapon lines would be more balanced, which is what I am talking about.

If you agree to move all offensive major buffs out of classes/guild trees and exclusively into weapon lines then I say sure. As I see it, for stamina toons rally is the only way to obtain weapon power except for very few class skills like igneous weapons. Whereas my sorc gets her major sorc and prophecy both from mages guild and crit surge (class skill) which would work on any weapon. If you agree to move all magicka and stamina offensive buffs to weapon lines then sure. Everyone will be on even ground. Only affecting rally is pretty bad balance cos it hits stam toons very hard.

The way I see it, it would be a nightmare to balance classes and weapon lines if buffs only work for the weapon thyre on. Imagine things like elemental drain. Only works for destro staff after its cast? How about classes that have access to major buffs vs classes that rely on weapon lines/guild skills for major buffs? This would be impossible to balance without significantly changing everything from weapon lines to guild abilities to class skills to ensure every class and spec is on even footing.

ToRelax

Vangy wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Let's all agree to fix things that ARE broken, before we address the things that aren't.

Horrible argument in this context. You aren't actually suggesting dualwield is competitive with two hand (outside spin2win)?

Also, (not directed at you specifically) it some people think that freedom to combine options always translates into build diversity. It couldn't be further from the truth, as that promotes generally best options - wich leads to fotm builds.
You may be right that making Rally only work for two hand bars would at first incentivize players more to use two hand as their main weapon. But that would obviously not be the case if the weapon lines would be more balanced, which is what I am talking about.

If you agree to move all offensive major buffs out of classes/guild trees and exclusively into weapon lines then I say sure. As I see it, for stamina toons rally is the only way to obtain weapon power except for very few class skills like igneous weapons. Whereas my sorc gets her major sorc and prophecy both from mages guild and crit surge (class skill) which would work on any weapon. If you agree to move all magicka and stamina offensive buffs to weapon lines then sure. Everyone will be on even ground. Only affecting rally is pretty bad balance cos it hits stam toons very hard.

The way I see it, it would be a nightmare to balance classes and weapon lines if buffs only work for the weapon thyre on. Imagine things like elemental drain. Only works for destro staff after its cast? How about classes that have access to major buffs vs classes that rely on weapon lines/guild skills for major buffs? This would be impossible to balance without significantly changing everything from weapon lines to guild abilities to class skills to ensure every class and spec is on even footing.

I think you are misunderstood what I meant somewhat. I made a difference between buffs and utility which I probably should have clarified some more. For example in the case of Rally, I'd let the damage buff only work while you're on a two hand bar, but the heal can tick on the other bar as well. Or for Defensive Stance nothing would change, the buff for blocking is already bound to the bar with that skill, but the reflect can work on the other one, too, for all I care - that's not something that is only used to increase the effectiveness of another weapon skill line then.
And as for your example of Elemental Drain, that is almost as bad as Rally in it's current form, turning many class skills obsolete in PvE. And yes, that worked differently pre 1.6, too. It still was used by almost everyone, though I would argue that was more because Crushing Shock was simply dealing more damage than many class based alternatives.
Also, Hidden Blade grants the major weapon damage buff, too. And I'd like to see the buff system removed anyway, in case you didn't notice.

olsborg

Personally, I would love to see the planned fighters guild revamp to include some kinda stamina heal and major brutality buff so it would be easier to deviate from the 2h meta.