NB Dodge roll/invisis/dodge/shield combo broken. Sorc Shield/ teleport/ dodge roll broken. Proposal.

Avenias

Its unacceptable to allow any build of nightblade to be able to spam invis and dodge roll indefinitely without running out of resource. No matter how much magicka recovery they have, all NBs must run out resources after a few Invis + dodge roll+ dodge + shield combos, and be forced to make a decision of either retreating or go for the kill. There should not be any indefinite builds, regardless the circumstance.

Similarly, Sorcs should not be able to keep spamming shield + dodge roll+ teleport indefinitely also. Once again i stress on the point on it being indefinite.

My proposal is to make adjustments so that those are not the case anymore.

Proposal 1- remove magicka recovery completely when you are under the protection of a shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack and costs magicka. Moreover, make adjustments so that consecutive casts of these abilities that costs magicka will significantly increase its cost. Thirdly, once out of shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack, there needs to be a minimum amount of time before magicka recovery goes back to normal. The more you spam the longer it will take for the recovery to go back to normal.

Proposal 2- Use the same application for all stamina builds too. Any stamina ability that provides a shield, increases dodge should be adjusted in a similar manner. Once again, the idea to make sure people use their skills at the right time, not a mindless spam combo that lasts indefinitely.

Proposal 3- Make changes to dodge roll changes- increase the penalty on consecutive dodge rolls, remove stamina recovery for a period of time after player completes dodge roll. This penalty duration will increase further for every consecutive dodge roll. Increase the time window of dodge rolls also. Once again, i stress, its to make sure people dont abuse it by cycling stamina mitigation abilities with magicka mitigation abilities to reset the window.

DannyLV702

Posts like this are the reason I banned from here three days ago. I just got back so I'm going to keep my comments to myself this time. L2p

FriedEggSandwich

Yo op it's just players investing cp into tumbling, it's ok anyone can do it. If you don't like it go play in azura.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Ideas like this are the reason we cant regen stamina at all while blocking.

Leandor

Is he serious? The OP, i mean?

DannyLV702

Leandor wrote: »

Is he serious? The OP, i mean?

He is lol. Look at his previous thread

ZOS_CoriJ

You will notice a few missing posts from this thread. Already most of the responses have been flamming or spamming. It is fine to disagree with a topic, but please keep responses civil. We would like to avoid what can lead to either disciplinary action or a closure of this discussion.

KoreanAwtamatic

OP even with 2500 stam regen I can't dodge roll indefinitely especially while under pressure. I don't see a issue with current regeneration.

NativeJoe

I agree it is frustrating to try to kill people running away. I would know. but thats what they're doing. running. it's not going to kill you.

Shields, You gotta be able to counter, just like u gotta counter stealth, there is nothing wrong with them. If anything ward needs to be brought up to par with this historical values of 1 atk vs 1 shield.

We're talking about damage mitigation. So you missed a few points here.
Heals mitigate damage, Armor rating mitigates damage, Champion points do as well, And what of my pets? I use them like shields as well, also plenty of damage mitigation skills like nova, negate, banner, and vale. Should these stop regen/slow them as well? if not then these would become the new choice damage mitigation techniques. But all these things have counters...

Armor: Nirnhoned weapons, armor pen, Champion points.
Dodge: Channaled skills and certain attacks like Mages wrath always hit these guys.
Heals: Leki's, disease enchants, and stun burst combos
Shields: Are already scheduled to be destroyed sadly.
-Dots applying to shields
-dot dmg increase via CP
-shields will be critable
-shield breaker set
-"shield breaker" CP
-50% reduction to shields in pvp
-talked about shield cast time in eso live
-Major and minor shields talked about
Streak: in a lag environment it literally takes 6 seconds to cast. so ur better off just walking. It has stacking costs which make it better to remove from your bar for the most part because it is impossible to use unless it's sub 300 ping. (which is when ur alone or just have a few people. )
Mitigation(nova, vale, etc): move the battle out of the area of effect.

kadar

1) Your post comes off as you being a bit whiny about every defensive mechanic in the game. If this isn't what you wanted to communicate, I'd suggest you adjust your tone/phrasing in the future (no offense, trying to help).

2) This isn't really a thing for the most part. True, you can build to indefinitely dodge roll or w/e, BUT if you do, your damage will be so low you're useless without a group to help you. Build for more damage and you can't perma-dodge roll any more, it's really simple.

RoamingRiverElk

Defensive actions initiated by individuals for their own protection need to be buffed, not nerfed.

strikeback1247

This discussion had finally started dying out... Please don't revive it.

Jade1986

NativeJoe wrote: »

I agree it is frustrating to try to kill people running away. I would know. but thats what they're doing. running. it's not going to kill you.

Shields, You gotta be able to counter, just like u gotta counter stealth, there is nothing wrong with them. If anything ward needs to be brought up to par with this historical values of 1 atk vs 1 shield.

We're talking about damage mitigation. So you missed a few points here.
Heals mitigate damage, Armor rating mitigates damage, Champion points do as well, And what of my pets? I use them like shields as well, also plenty of damage mitigation skills like nova, negate, banner, and vale. Should these stop regen/slow them as well? if not then these would become the new choice damage mitigation techniques. But all these things have counters...

Armor: Nirnhoned weapons, armor pen, Champion points.
Dodge: Channaled skills and certain attacks like Mages wrath always hit these guys.
Heals: Leki's, disease enchants, and stun burst combos
Shields: Are already scheduled to be destroyed sadly.
-Dots applying to shields
-dot dmg increase via CP
-shields will be critable
-shield breaker set
-"shield breaker" CP
-50% reduction to shields in pvp
-talked about shield cast time in eso live
-Major and minor shields talked about
Streak: in a lag environment it literally takes 6 seconds to cast. so ur better off just walking. It has stacking costs which make it better to remove from your bar for the most part because it is impossible to use unless it's sub 300 ping. (which is when ur alone or just have a few people. )
Mitigation(nova, vale, etc): move the battle out of the area of effect.

did you really just say shields are NOT strong enough for sorcs?!?!?!?!?!?!

: face desks so hard she breaks the floor :

Avenias

Long story short- add a penalty to all defensive abilities when used consecutively within a certain time by increasing resource cost. There needs to be a heavy penalty on consecutive use of invis by nightblades, by significantly increasing the amount of resource it consumes for every consecutive invis within the same time window. No more mindless spamming.

The whole concept of an assassin is to sneak in, kill fast and escape fast, instead of dancing around going in and out of invis, plus dodge rolling, avoiding attacks indefinitely. Nightblades are broken beyond belief, its no wonder why there are so many of them.

TheDarkShadow

Avenias wrote: »

Long story short- add a penalty to all defensive abilities when used consecutively within a certain time by increasing resource cost. There needs to be a heavy penalty on consecutive use of invis by nightblades, by significantly increasing the amount of resource it consumes for every consecutive invis within the same time window. No more mindless spamming.

Add penalty to all defensive move, but buff the 1 shot wonder? No more mindless spamming unless it's gap close spam, wrecking blow spam, supprise attack spam...? All fight should only last 2s burst from steal? Everyone should stack damage? Is that what you want?

Avenias

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Avenias wrote: »

Long story short- add a penalty to all defensive abilities when used consecutively within a certain time by increasing resource cost. There needs to be a heavy penalty on consecutive use of invis by nightblades, by significantly increasing the amount of resource it consumes for every consecutive invis within the same time window. No more mindless spamming.

Add penalty to all defensive move, but buff the 1 shot wonder? No more mindless spamming unless it's gap close spam, wrecking blow spam, supprise attack spam...? All fight should only last 2s burst from steal? Everyone should stack damage? Is that what you want?

Comparing apples with oranges. This thread is about defensive skills specifically. If you want to discuss offensive skill balance, make a new thread.

TheDarkShadow

I'm not the kind of people who make threads crying for nerf for every class and builds except the one I'm using.

Forestd16b14_ESO

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Posts like this are the reason I banned from here three days ago. I just got back so I'm going to keep my comments to myself this time. L2p

Tell me about it.

<---un-suspended a week ago

But back to the thread. Yea ok a magicka NB has infinite magicka recovery what about sorcerers and their forever shield spamming ? Magicka NB counter is roots and knock down skills cause I doubt they have the stamina to break that forever counter to shields ? Oh look there are no counters to a shield spammer except try to out DPS it.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Avenias wrote: »

Long story short- add a penalty to all defensive abilities when used consecutively within a certain time by increasing resource cost. There needs to be a heavy penalty on consecutive use of invis by nightblades, by significantly increasing the amount of resource it consumes for every consecutive invis within the same time window. No more mindless spamming.

The whole concept of an assassin is to sneak in, kill fast and escape fast, instead of dancing around going in and out of invis, plus dodge rolling, avoiding attacks indefinitely. Nightblades are broken beyond belief, its no wonder why there are so many of them.

Yea ZOS already tried something like this and guess what happened. Tanks got nerfed.

kadar

Avenias wrote: »

Long story short- add a penalty to all defensive abilities when used consecutively within a certain time by increasing resource cost. There needs to be a heavy penalty on consecutive use of invis by nightblades, by significantly increasing the amount of resource it consumes for every consecutive invis within the same time window. No more mindless spamming.

The whole concept of an assassin is to sneak in, kill fast and escape fast, instead of dancing around going in and out of invis, plus dodge rolling, avoiding attacks indefinitely. Nightblades are broken beyond belief, its no wonder why there are so many of them.

OP, I can't exactly figure out what you want Nerfed. First you mention dodge roll, then Cloak. Then you go and make a new thread (or was that one first?), and throw in Sorc Shields and Streak in the mix of things-you-want-nerfed-real-bad.

ZOS already evaluated the performance of Cloak and Nerfed it by removing the cleanse effect.
It's not up to you to decide "the whole concept of an assassin," it's up to the players who play them.
It's obvious by the mechanics you want nerfed, there are certain things you don't know how to counter.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Avenias wrote: »

Proposal 1- remove magicka recovery completely when you are under the protection of a shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack and costs magicka. Moreover, make adjustments so that consecutive casts of these abilities that costs magicka will significantly increase its cost. Thirdly, once out of shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack, there needs to be a minimum amount of time before magicka recovery goes back to normal. The more you spam the longer it will take for the recovery to go back to normal.

Ok, this would mean my tank would have no stam reg and no magicka reg most of the time. Will be fun doing stuff like icp or mol then.

Proposal 2- Use the same application for all stamina builds too. Any stamina ability that provides a shield, increases dodge should be adjusted in a similar manner. Once again, the idea to make sure people use their skills at the right time, not a mindless spam combo that lasts indefinitely.

Great idea. I mean, it's so easy for tanks to sustain their stamina, so stamina reg should be stopped if I cast a shield to be able to drop block for a sec to restore some stamina.

Proposal 3- Make changes to dodge roll changes- increase the penalty on consecutive dodge rolls, remove stamina recovery for a period of time after player completes dodge roll. This penalty duration will increase further for every consecutive dodge roll. Increase the time window of dodge rolls also. Once again, i stress, its to make sure people dont abuse it by cycling stamina mitigation abilities with magicka mitigation abilities to reset the window.

An even better change. The dodge cost increase isn't hurting magicka dds and healers enough, we need to make sure they can't more than once and watch them suffer at manticora or in the negates in mol.

tldr
All your proposials will be managable for the "efflusive" builds you want to fight, but it will hurt other builds a lot.

Vangy

I recently got muted for flaming and inflammatory posting..... So here I am back from my exodus of the forums.... And the first thread I see is the OPs post..... God help me... I dont wanna get muted/banned again. STAPH please STAPH. No No No. Bad bad ideas OP.

Shield stacking needs to be fixed. Thats reasonable. But nothing wrong with magblades now. There's so many counters (now even magelight spam stops their stealth). There's pots, aoe (bombard, impulse etc). Cloak dosent even purge DOTS now. And stam regen ALREADY has taken a HUGE hit making stam sooo unpopular now. Dodge roll = increasing cost. sneak = no stam regen. block = no stam regen... any more nerfs to stam and we might as well delete stam from the game. They are already a rare sight to see.

Americanfunguy

Avenias wrote: »

Its unacceptable to allow any build of nightblade to be able to spam invis and dodge roll indefinitely without running out of resource.

Not every player can do this. It tends to be very high end players who have a large amount of practice achieving these feats. And you have to remember there is a drawback to having as much regen as they do, and that would be; they don't hit as hard. Now is say they don't hit their abilities as hard but doesn't mean if you get hit, you won't die. They have practice, they can weave and block cast exceptionally well I have seen. One more piece to this, would be that they are likely spending a lot of money or time crafting potions to keep their resources. I hope this can help you to see how its more than just spam dodge rolling.

Minalan

laced wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

I agree it is frustrating to try to kill people running away. I would know. but thats what they're doing. running. it's not going to kill you.

Shields, You gotta be able to counter, just like u gotta counter stealth, there is nothing wrong with them. If anything ward needs to be brought up to par with this historical values of 1 atk vs 1 shield.

We're talking about damage mitigation. So you missed a few points here.
Heals mitigate damage, Armor rating mitigates damage, Champion points do as well, And what of my pets? I use them like shields as well, also plenty of damage mitigation skills like nova, negate, banner, and vale. Should these stop regen/slow them as well? if not then these would become the new choice damage mitigation techniques. But all these things have counters...

Armor: Nirnhoned weapons, armor pen, Champion points.
Dodge: Channaled skills and certain attacks like Mages wrath always hit these guys.
Heals: Leki's, disease enchants, and stun burst combos
Shields: Are already scheduled to be destroyed sadly.
-Dots applying to shields
-dot dmg increase via CP
-shields will be critable
-shield breaker set
-"shield breaker" CP
-50% reduction to shields in pvp
-talked about shield cast time in eso live
-Major and minor shields talked about
Streak: in a lag environment it literally takes 6 seconds to cast. so ur better off just walking. It has stacking costs which make it better to remove from your bar for the most part because it is impossible to use unless it's sub 300 ping. (which is when ur alone or just have a few people. )
Mitigation(nova, vale, etc): move the battle out of the area of effect.

did you really just say shields are NOT strong enough for sorcs?!?!?!?!?!?!

: face desks so hard she breaks the floor :

I think he means hardened ward needs a buff since shield stacking is about to get nerfed (most likely major/minor from what I'm reading here from experienced players, since the makes sense and fits in the rest of the buff system). So if Anulment and hardened are 'major' wards and healing is 'minor', you can't stack all three.

So in that context, it's not so bad.

bowmanz607

Avenias wrote: »

Its unacceptable to allow any build of nightblade to be able to spam invis and dodge roll indefinitely without running out of resource. No matter how much magicka recovery they have, all NBs must run out resources after a few Invis + dodge roll+ dodge + shield combos, and be forced to make a decision of either retreating or go for the kill. There should not be any indefinite builds, regardless the circumstance.

Similarly, Sorcs should not be able to keep spamming shield + dodge roll+ teleport indefinitely also. Once again i stress on the point on it being indefinite.

My proposal is to make adjustments so that those are not the case anymore.

Proposal 1- remove magicka recovery completely when you are under the protection of a shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack and costs magicka. Moreover, make adjustments so that consecutive casts of these abilities that costs magicka will significantly increase its cost. Thirdly, once out of shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack, there needs to be a minimum amount of time before magicka recovery goes back to normal. The more you spam the longer it will take for the recovery to go back to normal.

Proposal 2- Use the same application for all stamina builds too. Any stamina ability that provides a shield, increases dodge should be adjusted in a similar manner. Once again, the idea to make sure people use their skills at the right time, not a mindless spam combo that lasts indefinitely.

Proposal 3- Make changes to dodge roll changes- increase the penalty on consecutive dodge rolls, remove stamina recovery for a period of time after player completes dodge roll. This penalty duration will increase further for every consecutive dodge roll. Increase the time window of dodge rolls also. Once again, i stress, its to make sure people dont abuse it by cycling stamina mitigation abilities with magicka mitigation abilities to reset the window.

I will assume that since this was made on April 1st that it is an April fools joke.

ku5h

What OP proposed here would be heaven for my stam NB. But then again it would ruin my mag Sorc. No magica regen, while having shiels up, would mean no one would ever use dmg shields again, ever...

Septimus_Magna

What about Templar heals?

dRudE

To OP, we have skills that stop people using invis, we have sets that make damage go through shields, we have CC's( this game has soooo many CC's) that prevent people moving or performing actions at all, we have skills and sets that reduce healing, we have all sorts of ways to provide armor and spell penetration, everything that you struggle with in pvp has a counter, to know them all you must experience them all and learn to use them. I'm not going to be smug and say "L2P" because you could be a new player and are genuinely learning to play, so maybe just take time to reflect on your play style or work towards capping your CP if you haven't yet and while your doing that experiment with the CC's and counter measures and I'm sure the problems your facing will lessen.

caeliusstarbreaker

Avenias wrote: »

Its unacceptable to allow any build of nightblade to be able to spam invis and dodge roll indefinitely without running out of resource. No matter how much magicka recovery they have, all NBs must run out resources after a few Invis + dodge roll+ dodge + shield combos, and be forced to make a decision of either retreating or go for the kill. There should not be any indefinite builds, regardless the circumstance.

Similarly, Sorcs should not be able to keep spamming shield + dodge roll+ teleport indefinitely also. Once again i stress on the point on it being indefinite.

My proposal is to make adjustments so that those are not the case anymore.

Proposal 1- remove magicka recovery completely when you are under the protection of a shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack and costs magicka. Moreover, make adjustments so that consecutive casts of these abilities that costs magicka will significantly increase its cost. Thirdly, once out of shield, invis or anything that provides a chance to miss on attack, there needs to be a minimum amount of time before magicka recovery goes back to normal. The more you spam the longer it will take for the recovery to go back to normal.

Proposal 2- Use the same application for all stamina builds too. Any stamina ability that provides a shield, increases dodge should be adjusted in a similar manner. Once again, the idea to make sure people use their skills at the right time, not a mindless spam combo that lasts indefinitely.

Proposal 3- Make changes to dodge roll changes- increase the penalty on consecutive dodge rolls, remove stamina recovery for a period of time after player completes dodge roll. This penalty duration will increase further for every consecutive dodge roll. Increase the time window of dodge rolls also. Once again, i stress, its to make sure people dont abuse it by cycling stamina mitigation abilities with magicka mitigation abilities to reset the window.

Why is it unacceptable?
What is deemed acceptable in your eyes?

GreenSoup2HoT

kadar

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

What about Templar heals?

OP is basically against any sort of escape or damage prevention mechanic so.... Must be a Templar.

Americanfunguy wrote: »

Avenias wrote: »

Its unacceptable to allow any build of nightblade to be able to spam invis and dodge roll indefinitely without running out of resource.

Not every player can do this. It tends to be very high end players who have a large amount of practice achieving these feats. And you have to remember there is a drawback to having as much regen as they do, and that would be; they don't hit as hard. Now is say they don't hit their abilities as hard but doesn't mean if you get hit, you won't die. They have practice, they can weave and block cast exceptionally well I have seen. One more piece to this, would be that they are likely spending a lot of money or time crafting potions to keep their resources. I hope this can help you to see how its more than just spam dodge rolling.

Quoted for truth.