Magika DK

Therium104

Going to take a different approach to discussing Magika DK for balances puposes. I will list an arguement and request an informed response. I contend that the magika DK needs substantial buffs to be compeitive with other classes.

1) The DK has no class specific high burst dps abilities. Flamelash hits like a wet noodle and force pulse is no where near as effective as options for other classes and play styles. Even stamina DK which are supposed to be decent rely on spamming a weapon skill or wrecking blow.

Solution: Increase the damage output of flamelash to be equalivalebt to the many high damage spammable abilities available to nightblade or other classes. Also, increase the damage output of obsidian shard to be comparable (accounting for cast time and other factors) to Sorc crystal shards. Keep the stun also which is fine due to the immunity. This is part of a much greater issue with burst vs. DoT dps. Pvp is about burst. Any class designed around DoTs is at a huge disadvantage. Finally, these changes will allow a DK to equip a Restro staff and still put out compeitive dps.

2) Magic DK need major improvements to survivability. I believe alot of magic DK issues stem from class design at the beginning of the game to be effective in heavy armor compared to the current abomination..... DK wear light armor but unlike the Sorc are not specifically designed for it. This poses several unique problems. For example, Sorcs by design have excellent shields and access to a restro staff while dps. This option is not available to Magic DK. Nightblade has much more mitigation than a Magic DK in light armor and there is nothing wrong with this but both damage output and defense need to be comparable.

Solution: This is a hard one. If we assume the game dynamic regarding resources will not change and heavy armor is still not a viable option we can go the shields route but this in essence would make a magic dk a clone of Sorcs. I was thinking more of a static increase to spell resistance and physical resistance based on passives in the ardent flame tree. Like each point increases these by 2,000 for a max of X. This in combination with a drastic buff to green dragon blood, Igneous Shield, and the changes to damage as suggested above to open up easier access to heals and shields by equipping resto staves would do wonders. The heal from green dragon blood is pathetic.

3) Mitigation is not just heavy armor. Dodge and the ability to stealth on demand are major advantages. I ask for a reasonable comparison of mitigation for all the classes. If done well I believe the areas lacking with the magic DK will be more apparent.

4) DoT dps does not work in high burst pvp that is currently in the game. If anyone wants to argue this point you are to stupid to respond. That is being nice btw.

Any thoughts. We discuss these issues in my pvp guilds and the solutions vary but NO one believes Magic DK are in a good pvp spot even with the recent changes. Most people who have a DK just stopped pvping on them and started a Sorc or Nightblade.

NB can go magic and stamina effectively. So can other classes. I do not believe asking the devs for these type of changes is to much to ask. It is our expectation as paying customers. Most of us want balance and good compeition.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Good points, but in reality you should just stop wasting your energy on this subject. It's pointless.

Therium104

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Good points, but in reality you should just stop wasting your energy on this subject. It's pointless.

Lol..... why? Other classes can go magic and stamina. Why should this standard not be applied to all classes equally in the game? I do not believe these changes are to much to ask or will result in OP magic DK destroying everything.

Morozov

i can burst people down, and have the tankiness to take on 3-4 people pounding on me....no worries here

boatload of impen for mitigation allows me to wear light armor 5-1-1. Other tanky DK abilities allow for additional mitigation. Vampire for regen and mitigation at low health. Bloodspawn for ulti regen and mitigation. Wings, extra healing from igneous, etc, etc, etc.

now that we have answered your #2 argument lets move on to #1...

magDK's cant really get 4k+ spell damage without loosing some other much needed stats. Its hard I know, but oh well. We cant line up curses/proxy/frags/wrath or do additional damage from stealth/killerblade or jesus beam ....everything, but we can shooting star->fossilize->burning ember->talon->whip+naynay = more combined damage than most can deal with comfortably...all the while being able to mitigate/reflect incoming damage from outside sources.

Can we mitigate damage from 20+ people at once? no, no one can. My personal best is 7 for a minute and a half using my gear/skills and the terrain. Granted I was just running around but that's the skill aspect of PVP. We can line up our ulti's and wait to root folks in our dots and fire who have spent half of their resources trying to burst us down.

on to the #1 argument.....Shooting star ftw. Not a class specific ability I know, but tell me one class ability that is not bugged/broken that is in the truest sense a literal "one-shot-kill-button". Thing I think you are missing is that most people use a combination of skills to drop someone before they can react. There is no "true" one shot willy button. I'll call out @Alcast on this one. His bullseye build doesn't use only one ability, it uses a combo of class specific abilities/gear to drop people that fast. He's not just running around pressing one button laughing as people die......he presses three-four....;)

..onwards and upwards to topic #4...if I can muster the intellagenses

Dots in PVP...pre-purge nerf it was carp....magicarp. Post purge-nerf, I would argue it's not. With magDK dots you can debuff, heal yourself and cause damage. So unless someone really wants to loose a slot on their bars to put purge then they can be effective if used correctly. Before you mention, "Well NB's can just cloak and bye-bye dots!" there are plenty of counters to cloak...detect pots and magelight would be my first two. Stam builds can dodge roll endlessly, but that would all they would be doing, and that only really takes care of our talons. What about embers? Or engulfing flames? or entropy still ticking away while they roll in the dirt? Let them roll, Ill cook marshmallows on their burning corpse when they finally run out of stamina.

And...AND you can put CP into making them more effective. so win win.

My 2 cents on dots...

Gotta remember that prior to TG mag DK was really hurting. Mostly in part because of purge spam removing dots, and there was multiple ways to mitigate magical damage. We had no mobility (which we really still don't but it doesn't really matter cause EVERYONE is slow) and solo we really didn't have the damage output to be able to solo anything 1v1. In groups we could be useful, solo was just sad. Now the meta switched to magica so we are sitting in a better place.

Therium104

Yea buddy. You are full of it.

It was funny earlier because I was wondering cyrodiil solo and one of my stamina dk brethren on another faction attacked. He critical rushed for 6k. Kind of took me by surprise. Starts the wrecking blow so I walk into him and it still hits like a truck. Like 6 - 7k. I use stone giant. No stun. Lol. Use a flamelash for 3k damage crit with over 3,000 spellpower. He crit rushes and I block. Hits like a truck.....Needless to say I died. The ultimate finished me off. I have played a Stam Dk in pvp and it is not hard.

You are full of it. As a magic dk you are not taking on 3 - 4 players consistently without support and winning no matter how many champion points. Do you play a different class and being a smart arse.

It is basic math. Magic DK just cannot put out the damage to pressure other classes with the tools provided. It has nothing to do with skill.

What skill do you use to burst people down? I can see trying to time an ultimate with proc det but this is not feasible in most situations due to the inherent lack of survivability.

Edit: Originally I only read the post as stating you take on 3 to 4 players only as a few lines so had a rude tone in my response. I apologize as you did respond in greater detail. Thank you for input.

Therium104

Morozov wrote: »

i can burst people down, and have the tankiness to take on 3-4 people pounding on me....no worries here

boatload of impen for mitigation allows me to wear light armor 5-1-1. Other tanky DK abilities allow for additional mitigation. Vampire for regen and mitigation at low health. Bloodspawn for ulti regen and mitigation. Wings, extra healing from igneous, etc, etc, etc.

now that we have answered your #2 argument lets move on to #1...

magDK's cant really get 4k+ spell damage without loosing some other much needed stats. Its hard I know, but oh well. We cant line up curses/proxy/frags/wrath or do additional damage from stealth/killerblade or jesus beam ....everything, but we can shooting star->fossilize->burning ember->talon->whip+naynay = more combined damage than most can deal with comfortably...all the while being able to mitigate/reflect incoming damage from outside sources.

Can we mitigate damage from 20+ people at once? no, no one can. My personal best is 7 for a minute and a half using my gear/skills and the terrain. Granted I was just running around but that's the skill aspect of PVP. We can line up our ulti's and wait to root folks in our dots and fire who have spent half of their resources trying to burst us down.

on to the #1 argument.....Shooting star ftw. Not a class specific ability I know, but tell me one class ability that is not bugged/broken that is in the truest sense a literal "one-shot-kill-button". Thing I think you are missing is that most people use a combination of skills to drop someone before they can react. There is no "true" one shot willy button. I'll call out @Alcast on this one. His bullseye build doesn't use only one ability, it uses a combo of class specific abilities/gear to drop people that fast. He's not just running around pressing one button laughing as people die......he presses three-four....;)

..onwards and upwards to topic #4...if I can muster the intellagenses

Dots in PVP...pre-purge nerf it was carp....magicarp. Post purge-nerf, I would argue it's not. With magDK dots you can debuff, heal yourself and cause damage. So unless someone really wants to loose a slot on their bars to put purge then they can be effective if used correctly. Before you mention, "Well NB's can just cloak and bye-bye dots!" there are plenty of counters to cloak...detect pots and magelight would be my first two. Stam builds can dodge roll endlessly, but that would all they would be doing, and that only really takes care of our talons. What about embers? Or engulfing flames? or entropy still ticking away while they roll in the dirt? Let them roll, Ill cook marshmallows on their burning corpse when they finally run out of stamina.

And...AND you can put CP into making them more effective. so win win.

My 2 cents on dots...

Gotta remember that prior to TG mag DK was really hurting. Mostly in part because of purge spam removing dots, and there was multiple ways to mitigate magical damage. We had no mobility (which we really still don't but it doesn't really matter cause EVERYONE is slow) and solo we really didn't have the damage output to be able to solo anything 1v1. In groups we could be useful, solo was just sad. Now the meta switched to magica so we are sitting in a better place.

Where to begin. First, in the high burst pvp DoTs are never a viable option. It is just how pvp overtime always develops in these games. It is all about burst. You made decent points but none of them solve the problems and frankly I call foul on some your solutions. You go apply Dots to that vet 16 Magic NB with over 400 champ points and see how that turns out for you. If the guy has two thumbs and an IQ over 20 you will die as a Magic DK very quickly. Skill has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Therium104

Lol.... cyrodil is such a god awful mess. Magic DK still need those buffs.

RocDonald

Does nobody use inhale? It's actually not bad. Gives a pretty good instaheal and usually crits for 7-8k in Wrothgar (against ads I mean). Idk if that's much of a comparison, haven't used it in pvp. I've been trying to bypass the usual cookie cutter loadouts (whatever I found on youtube lol), and play around with some of the lesser mentioned powers. Some are meh, but it keeps thing interesting

Ariades_swe

In duels magicka dk one of the strongest atm.
Skilled players dont get bursted down 1v1 or small scale. In 1vx and zerg *** they suck.

Chadwikid

Why in gods name are you using stone giant? Why the hell are you not running deep breath? Why was the first thing you did not hit fossilize or talons and move to gain control?

Dots are now viable in pvp. Sorry your wrong. If your hitting 3k whips on a crit there is something very very wrong.

Dks can create burst through timing and layered damage. Controlling the fight is key. I often burst down groups of multiple people at a time. 3-4 is not unreasonable nor is surviving.

Yes we still lack in some areas and still are behind other classes in many ways and a magicka dk still requires more skill to play effectively than just about every other class excluding stam sort at this point.

I'm sorry to say it and I really mean no offense but it sounds like you either don't know how to build a magicka dk, don't know how to play one, or both.

Forestd16b14_ESO

OK but what about those who want DKs to be you know the go to tank class again ?

Don't even say " Oh DK best at 1v1 dueling bla bla bla". Just don't.

Therium104

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

OK but what about those who want DKs to be you know the go to tank class again ?

Don't even say " Oh DK best at 1v1 dueling bla bla bla". Just don't.

I do not believe that will work. First, you have no taunt that works in pvp. Second, their is so much damage a mechanic like guard is not feasible. Third, going tank does not in itself preclude magic DKS from having a viable dps/duel spec. Fourth, magic DKS should be able to do equalivelent damage to NB and other burst classes. It is called normalized damage.

FINALLY, EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME CAN TANK. SO WE NEED TO NERF NIGHTBLADES BURST DAMAGE BECAUSE THEY CAN TANK? DID YOU KNOW SORCS CAN TANK? WHAT IS A TANK CLASS IN A GAME LIKE ESO.

BOTTOM LINE MAGIC. DKS NEED MORE BURST DAMAGE AND MITIGATION IN LIGHT ARMOR. BETTER RESOURCE MANAGEMENT TOOLS. FINALLY, THEY NEED ABILITIES THAT HAVE MULTIPLE POSITIVE FUNCTIONS. It takes three slots in my bar to do the same thing as several single NB abilities.

Therium104

Chadwikid wrote: »

Why in gods name are you using stone giant? Why the hell are you not running deep breath? Why was the first thing you did not hit fossilize or talons and move to gain control?

Dots are now viable in pvp. Sorry your wrong. If your hitting 3k whips on a crit there is something very very wrong.

Dks can create burst through timing and layered damage. Controlling the fight is key. I often burst down groups of multiple people at a time. 3-4 is not unreasonable nor is surviving.

Yes we still lack in some areas and still are behind other classes in many ways and a magicka dk still requires more skill to play effectively than just about every other class excluding stam sort at this point.

I'm sorry to say it and I really mean no offense but it sounds like you either don't know how to build a magicka dk, don't know how to play one, or both.

It is frightening how clueless you are. In high burst pvp you cannot layer damage. My spell damage fluctuates with gear but if you try and argue flamelash is a hard hitting ability never post again.

I know how to play a magic DK and frankly doubt you do it better. I am just smart enough to see the disparity. Talons???? Okay buddy.

I do not use stone giant. I am saying they can buff it so we will use it. We need a ranged hard hitting ability. And the way resources work must use light armor but we have pathethic surivability. Deep breath is fine but very situational and frankly not viable in most situations in pvp. Unless you are one of those guys that charge the line in light armor....

WTF man.

Therium104

Ariades_swe wrote: »

In duels magicka dk one of the strongest atm.
Skilled players dont get bursted down 1v1 or small scale. In 1vx and zerg *** they suck.

LOL............ Okay buddy. Skill has nothing to do with it by the way. Think of it as a math equation. Other class just pump out more damage and havs more efficient tools to survive. Magic DK are horrible solo class in 99% of the engagements in pvp. To say otherwise is both naive and dishonest.

Chadwikid

Line 3 of the second paragraph of post #5 states "I use stone giant. No stun. Lol." Soooo....

Layer damage> burning embers prix det inhale flame lash. I can burst most people down int 3 seconds.

Sounds as if you have a,ready made up your mind about the class. You see no side but your own and accept nor are open to any view point but your own. You are indeed the ignorant one and are a prime example of the kind of player that is not needed in game.

I'm done now. Have fun blowing on your dk. I'll continue to melt faces with a class that, unbeknownst to me according to you, can't do that.

Therium104

Chadwikid wrote: »

Line 3 of the second paragraph of post #5 states "I use stone giant. No stun. Lol." Soooo....

Layer damage> burning embers prix det inhale flame lash. I can burst most people down int 3 seconds.

Sounds as if you have a,ready made up your mind about the class. You see no side but your own and accept nor are open to any view point but your own. You are indeed the ignorant one and are a prime example of the kind of player that is not needed in game.

I'm done now. Have fun blowing on your dk. I'll continue to melt faces with a class that, unbeknownst to me according to you, can't do that.

I was leveling up stone giant in pvp. I level all my skills up. My special snowflake.

Lol... prox det is buuuurrrrsssst. And no that will not burst down most players with thumbs and the ability to hit buttons in Cyrodil. Blowing on my DK??? If you believe that combo will kill players consistently then I need to play on your server. Wtf man. Tell you what. Add it up...

Burning frigging embers is a DoT so in three seconds like what... 2 ticks? Let's sat 2k damage? It does do a little damage on the initial hit. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and give 4k - 5k to flamelash. Unlikely I know. So you need a prox det of 14k to 15k???? Add the numbers. Forgot inhale... this wet noodle ability hits for... wait... Delayed damage so apparently the guy just stands there...

Shut it champ. Oh and the guy does not block. Heal, teleport, dodge roll, or anything else? So if he has no champ points, unable to defend himself, you CRIT every hit and get the highest damage prox det in the history of cyrodil. Yea, it will work.

Chadwikid

Arguing with a fool. My mistake

DKsUnite

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

OK but what about those who want DKs to be you know the go to tank class again ?

Don't even say " Oh DK best at 1v1 dueling bla bla bla". Just don't.

Ummm DK is the best tank class. I tank zergs solo for my guild everyday I pvp. Build it properly and it's good

Therium104

Chadwikid wrote: »

Arguing with a fool. My mistake

Stop arguing in the mirror.

Chadwikid

@DKsUnite He has no clue bro. Your better off not even posting. His mind is made up. It's too hard of a class for him to play or even wrap his head around.

DKsUnite

@Therium104 did you say that inhale is a wet noodle ability?

Therium104

DKsUnite wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

OK but what about those who want DKs to be you know the go to tank class again ?

Don't even say " Oh DK best at 1v1 dueling bla bla bla". Just don't.

Ummm DK is the best tank class. I tank zergs solo for my guild everyday I pvp. Build it properly and it's good

Wtf. No one tanks zergs solo. Now if you are in a group with heals backing you could survive for a short while but frankly I prefer templar tanks for that because they can heal for so much stay alive longer.

DKsUnite

Chadwikid wrote: »

@DKsUnite He has no clue bro. Your better off not even posting. His mind is made up. It's too hard of a class for him to play or even wrap his head around.

Yeh that's on Him if he can't play it. It's a class that takes time and dedication to learn and skill to play. Not easy to just pick it up.

Therium104 wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

OK but what about those who want DKs to be you know the go to tank class again ?

Don't even say " Oh DK best at 1v1 dueling bla bla bla". Just don't.

Ummm DK is the best tank class. I tank zergs solo for my guild everyday I pvp. Build it properly and it's good

Wtf. No one tanks zergs solo. Now if you are in a group with heals backing you could survive for a short while but frankly I prefer templar tanks for that because they can heal for so much stay alive longer.

Umm please ask anyone on the NA server PC about me

Chadwikid

@DKsUnite Yes it does and that is the point I always try to make. It is a difficult class to play requires skill time dedication research testing AND most importantly practice practice practice.

Ariades_swe

Dsd

Cogo

Hah, nice Aprils Fools! ^^

I just switched to 50% mag 50% sta, dual wield and destro. My DK Magika abilities are outstanding. A bit TOO good really, but hey.

Therium104

Cogo wrote: »

Hah, nice Aprils Fools! ^^

I just switched to 50% mag 50% sta, dual wield and destro. My DK Magika abilities are outstanding. A bit TOO good really, but hey.

LOL. Alright buddy. You split your resource pools like that. Why don't you go 4 light and 3 heavy.

Therium104

DKsUnite wrote: »

Chadwikid wrote: »

@DKsUnite He has no clue bro. Your better off not even posting. His mind is made up. It's too hard of a class for him to play or even wrap his head around.

Yeh that's on Him if he can't play it. It's a class that takes time and dedication to learn and skill to play. Not easy to just pick it up.

Therium104 wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

OK but what about those who want DKs to be you know the go to tank class again ?

Don't even say " Oh DK best at 1v1 dueling bla bla bla". Just don't.

Ummm DK is the best tank class. I tank zergs solo for my guild everyday I pvp. Build it properly and it's good

Wtf. No one tanks zergs solo. Now if you are in a group with heals backing you could survive for a short while but frankly I prefer templar tanks for that because they can heal for so much stay alive longer.

Umm please ask anyone on the NA server PC about me

Okay champ. So you can tank entire zergs!!!!! Solo 4 Nightblades at one time. Or you are obviously a scrub who has no concept of what determines success or failure. I think the later. Those four healers following you spamming heals does not mean you are special. Lol.

The one good thing about Magic DK is they are easy to solo. The only class on my Magic DK that never beats me.

Therium104

It is like you guys are fine with being medicore. Just because you prefer the class as is does not mean it cannot be improved.

Also, I run with two very good and active pvp guilds and the sentiment in game is that Magic DKS need a buff similiar to what I proposed. They are good players though and have multiple vet 16 toons. @DKsUnite just need to do more pvp, played against better compeition, and work on game skills because you are obvious lacking.

The plurality opinion of 50 odd people honestly discussing balance and coming to the conclusion Magic DK needs a buff and offering solutions like those in this thread should not be outweighed by the misinformed opinions of lower tier players. So @DKsUnite and @Chadwikid please stop posting.

Ariades_swe

Ddd

DKsUnite

Magicka DK needs one or two more buffs to become everyone friendly. Until then the pugs can go play easy mode sorc.

I'm not gonna keep arguing with a pug though so peace out. L2P @Therium104