My suggested improvement/nerfs to the Templar class to raise 1vX capability and build diversity.

Dovahmiim

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH's criticisms of BoL are specious, not incorrect. To be specific it's barrier/purge spam he doesn't like and not so much the strength of the heal that bothers him (although he isn't happy about it) it is the "smart" aspect, that is, a player without understanding the situation can mash a button and just happen to heal someone 20 meters away without knowing about it. Had he articulated his complaints as such instead of claiming BoL was "bugged," I would be more understanding of where he is coming from, but the reality is there is so much damage flying around Cyrodiil - much more than actual "healing" can keep pace with (i.e. barrier/purge spam is not "healing") - that BoL needs to be able to work as it does to be competitive. As it as a DPS spec worth their salt can out-damage a BoL spammer.

When you convince ZoS to get rid of animation canceling and reintroduce soft caps which has made instant-burst DPS out of control and make it so using a resto staff doesn't tank your spellpower, then I'll begin to suggest ways to make healing more "skilled" as you put it. High damage is instant, healing has to be instant to. And, if ZoS is actually serious about nerfing the barrier and purge cap to the point where they are not spammable options, the you and FENGRUSH and everyone else that hoped aboard the anti-healing bandwagon are going to find out real quick that it was never Templars spamming BoL that kept raids alive.

I'm all for having making the other templar skills like blazing shield and the old blinding flashes actually semi-efficient again as you suggest. But BoL is not "blatantly OP."

You're right, there is a lot of damage flying around cyrodiil, that is why individual players have many defensive skills at their disposal... On the whole, BoL is barely necessary for a skilled group, as well placed Healing Springs, Rapid Regen and a well timed Healing Ward is enough. However, to be effective at this role as healer, you need to be situationally aware and understand group play... or... in the current state of the game you can grab some random PUG and tell them to mash one button, and this is just as effective. You see my point? BoL is just far too convenient, the nerf I suggest will only hurt groups with healers who are not well aware of their environment. I'll say it again, I have extensive experience with PvP and PvE group healing, I am well aware that it is not BoL keeping raids alive. So why are you so against the nerf? If you want an instant healing skill to save an ally in smaller group play, use healing ward, heal preemptively, or CC and put pressure on your opponent(s).

Healing Ward is an example of a well balanced smart heal. It must be timed well to ensure maximum efficiency, and to ensure it is going to the priority target, and will give the target being healed a fair chance to recover... not total invulnerability until the Templar is focused.

I do not want BoL to remain as a competitive heal in groups, I think that it is better suited as a primarily solo oriented survival skill. This is where a total rework of Healing Ritual comes in to play, I would not suggest nerfing BoL group capabilities unless this change came with an appropriate alteration to Healing Ritual, such that Templars could retain their niche. The rework would need to eliminate the smart heal aspect of Templar healing , however retain the Templar's potential as well balanced healers. This would manufacture a situation such that the 1vX and general survivability aspects of the Templar class could be brought up to par with say NBs or Sorcs, without making them an OP class.

The general aim of many of the Templar threads I see nowadays is to bring Templars to the same level of overall effectiveness in all situations (mainly considering open world PvP) as classes such as NB or Sorc, which is great, I think that the NB class is perfectly balanced, and the Sorc class is not far off with a rework or damage shield mechanics. But... imagine if Templars reached this point... and were also unbeatable 1 button mashing healers... this would be objectively OP.
You cannot have both. Either Templars remain extremely noob friendly heal bots, or they become a more well rounded class that satisfies players all across the spectrum of playstyles and interests. Take your pick.

As for animation cancelling, this is not class specific, and I would not be opposed to a slight rework, especially as with my ping issues (300+ in PvP, no matter what time of day), animation cancelling is much more difficult to take advantage of. I also agree that DW being the optimal weapon setup for magicka Templars is absurd, and think the spell and weapon damage gap should be balanced differently. Your weapon choice should be about your preferences of weapon based skills (if you choose to use any). I know this is off topic but it is actually so essential that this happens, it would allow for so much better build diversity and playstyles.

Dovahmiim

Ishammael wrote: »

Y'all need to carefully read what Joy has written here. Especially the point about BoL not being the skill which keeps raids alive. When I see enemy group healers spamming BoL I know I have already won the fight. This anti-healing bandwagon is ridiculous.

The group toolkit is the following:
1. Barrier + purge
2. Purifying ritual --> Repentence
3. Vigor xN
4. Healing springs + Blessing of Restoration
5. Individual player shields (magicka) or miss chance (evasaion)

Fights are typically over in less than 10s -- BoL is simply not that important in that time frame.

I addressed this in my previous post, but to be clear, if a group healer is spamming BoL in a group larger than say.. 6 people(?) then they are bad. The only issue with this skill is the e.z mode smart heal aspect. If there is an anti-healing bandwagon, I am not on it, as I group heal in both PvP and PvE extensively. If a rework of the smart heal aspect of the Templar class is not addressed, we cannot also hope for our class to become more well rounded. If you do not play solo PvP or small (3-4) group on a Templar, I can see why you would not see this as a fair trade... but that does not mean this trade is unnecessary.

timidobserver

Dovahmiim wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Eclipse: We'll use the old version of Drain Essence as a proof of concept that it can be done and that it destroy the game's performance, but the cool down shouldn't be as obnoxiously long as that one was.

IMO, you shouldn't be able to break free of eclipse. It just has a wait period in between applications. I envision it as an extremely tactical skill that you can apply once every x seconds.

Rushed Ceremony: Nah to it only affecting PvP. It isn't about PvE or PvP. I don't know any other way to say it. You are acting as if I am against nerfing Templar healing. I could care less about that much of it. I just want more in exchange for it than you are offering in your suggestions. This is a thread that Gina Bruno requested and you can find a lot of examples of buffs in this thread of things the Templar community would like to see happen with the class, including my own post. templar issues thread

It is purely about equal trade-offs not PvE or PvP. I am not in favor of a compensating us for a huge nerf to BoL by replacing an already crap skill that I would never use with what sounds like a slightly less crap one that I'd probably still never use. There shouldn't have to be a trade off to get the garbage that is healing ritual made useful anyway.

In exchange for a massive nerf to BoL, I would want buff(s) survivability, dps, mobility, escape, and/or cc(not all of those things but some of them) not more healing. For example, we are the only class that doesn't have a single immobilize in our class skills. Every other class has at least two different skills that apply some form of it. We don't have a single AoE/cone CC at all. Every other class has at least one.

Eclipse: Okay, I can definitely see it having its own cool down now, however for such a powerful hard counter to magicka (which in general already has so many hard counters) I see it being far too powerful if unbreakable. It would almost force other magicka class specs to run purge to avoid being completely shut down in 1vX. That was why I suggested having several negative effects if the person affected by the skill chooses to break free, such as minor maim and perhaps another secondary effect. Eclipse already is a VERY tactical skill, I have used it on all my builds since 1.6, and I have always thought that the only issue relating to CC affecting this skill is that if you try to cast on an enemy with immunity, nothing happens but you are still charged the full magicka cost. I've considered every possible way to have it on a separate timer, and I came to the same conclusion as you, if a person affected had to consider breaking free twice every few seconds, it would be broken. So if on a separate immunity timer, there cannot be a break free aspect. But then this ability is just FAR too powerful, especially on a magicka user who is outnumbered. I still can't see it working on a separate timer, sorry

Rushed Ceremony: But here's the thing, I am arguing that an equal trade off would occur, so that our healing effectiveness to allies is reduced by 20-30% against using class skills alone (thus alleviating the "healer" bottleneck somewhat), however to achieve maximum effectiveness while healing, a Templar player must actually use good positioning, and be well aware of his group's positions.

I primarily think it is the convenience of the BoL heal that is OP, it removes ALL elements of skill from healing as a Templar, as the smart heal mechanic literally does all the work. You can heal through basically all group content in game just pressing this one skill... I've done it to test...

I would agree a million times, to make up for our loss in group healing effectiveness (well, at least for healbots with no skill), the Templar would NEED to be given more access to better CC and proactive survival skills, which we actually used to have in the golden days of 1.5. I am not arguing for one change without the other, if Templar wants to be as capable as other classes in 1vX and in general open world PvP, gaining skills that allow them to be more survivable with their current mobility, they cannot remain the unstoppable easymode healbot gods that they are currently.

Eclipse: Given the suggested cooldown, it only being able to be on one person at a time, and the limitation of only reflecting ranged projectiles, I am okay with purge being the only way to get rid of it.

Right now, I would only use eclipse if I were trying to solo a Sorc. It isn't worth it in any other situation for me. I would prefer to take up my CC immunity with a stun and try to burst my enemy down while they are stunned.

Rushed Ceremony: You typed nothing that would make me want to take such a huge nerf to Breath of Life. Most of your suggestions are small tweaks, obvious bug fixes, or vague buff this in some unspecified way. To you, forcing Templar to to "use more skill" and be easier for Fengrush to deal with seems to be your primary goal and all of the tradeoff that you need. My view is that I require equal value in exchange for anything that is taken away.

Also, I disagree with this demigod business you keep going on about. All it takes is one or two good werewolves to completely shutdown most Templar healers.

AfkNinja

I do not get the hate against Breath of life at all, like at ALL. You only heal 1 person with a reasonable heal up to 15k crits etc., the other two get half of that which is already reduced by half. That means one person gets a 50% BOL heal and 2 get a 25% BOL heal. OH NO! SO MUCH HEALING! On top of this you don't even choose who you heal....I regularly heal people outside my group on accident in PVP which results in my team members dying.

@Joy_Division is absolutely correct, BOL is not an issue at all. I could agree smart healing however is stupid.

Dovahmiim

timidobserver wrote: »

Eclipse: Given the suggested cooldown, it only being able to be on one person at a time, and the limitation of only reflecting ranged projectiles, I am okay with purge being the only way to get rid of it.

Right now, I would only use eclipse if I were trying to solo a Sorc. It isn't worth it in any other situation for me. I would prefer to take up my CC immunity with a stun and try to burst my enemy down while they are stunned.

Rushed Ceremony: You typed nothing that would make me want to take such a huge nerf to Breath of Life. Most of your suggestions are small tweaks, obvious bug fixes, or vague buff this in some unspecified way. To you, forcing Templar to to "use more skill" and be easier for Fengrush to deal with seems to be your primary goal and all of the tradeoff that you need. My view is that I require equal value in exchange for anything that is taken away.

Also, I disagree with this demigod business you keep going on about. All it takes is one or two good werewolves to completely shutdown most Templar healers.

Eclipse: But... for any Templar who is attempting to take on more than 1 target, it is important for Eclipse not to be limited to one target... and it reflects ALL single target spells, not just projectiles. I'm sorry, but having used the skill extensively, and been on the receiving end extensively, I just don't think a lack of a break free option would be balanced. It would be overpowered and likely nerfed in a future patch if that were to happen. We may have to agree to disagree, which is fine considering ZoS have stated they are reworking the skill anyway, so they likely have something in mind or set in stone already.

Rushed Ceremony: I've articulated my full point of view regarding BoL in my previous reply to Joy_Division, it explains why I think the smart heal component of the skill is simply too powerful, and discourages any sort of positioning or skillful play. Whether or not I can think of a perfect trade off such that Templars retain their healing niche is irrelevant, BoL, as the ability stands, is OP with respect to group effectiveness. I would not advocate a fix for this however unless an appropriate trade off is made, that is all I am saying. Actually yes, I would like the role of Templar healer in PvP to require some element of skill, as it stands you literally just need to spam the break free button while watching health bars of you group to be effective as a Templar healer. A Templar would, if anything, be far harder for Fengrush to deal with with my suggested changes. A BoL cast would be always give its main heal to the caster, and the class would have more proactive defenses.

My best idea right now for a heal to give Templars similar effectiveness as healers, while introducing an actual element of positioning, and battle awareness, is to have a cone based heal, similar in nature to Puncturing Sweeps. This heal would have a small cast time, maybe 0.5s (I think instant cast would be too much, I don't know) and then function as a HoT centered on the caster, even with movement. Secondary benefits could be based off of distance from target (while facing them as it is a cone heal), severity of allies wounds, something like that, and give bonuses to healing crit chance or healing strength or something. There you have it, a skill that would allow Templars to be VERY effective healers if this skill was balanced correctly, especially with a better arsenal of defensive skills and resource management. I can also see this being good as it would give an incentive for the player targeting a group with a Templar healer to separate targets from the healer. The notion that I am just trying to gimp the Templar class, when I literally only play a Templar in solo/group PvP is laughable.

I said demigod with respect to healing in groups, you can shut down a Templar healer a variety of different ways. I find it easiest with dark flare.

Dovahmiim

AfkNinja wrote: »

I do not get the hate against Breath of life at all, like at ALL. You only heal 1 person with a reasonable heal up to 15k crits etc., the other two get half of that which is already reduced by half. That means one person gets a 50% BOL heal and 2 get a 25% BOL heal. OH NO! SO MUCH HEALING! On top of this you don't even choose who you heal....I regularly heal people outside my group on accident in PVP which results in my team members dying.

@Joy_Division is absolutely correct, BOL is not an issue at all. I could agree smart healing however is stupid.

"BOL is not an issue at all"... "smart healing however is stupid".
Ummm...

I will assume that you agree that the smart healing aspect of BoL is too powerful then. Which is my main concern. So long as this mechanic stands, the Templar class would be overpowered if its solo/1vX (in general, open world) capability was brought up to be at the same level as NB, which I consider balanced... at least for magicka. Have a read of my suggestion for a Healing Ritual rework in my previous reply to timidobserver, I feel as though it's a good starting point to put the Templar healer in a better place in the grande scheme of things, and with the BoL changes, justify improvements to Templar survivability and resource management.

Joy_Division

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH's criticisms of BoL are specious, not incorrect. To be specific it's barrier/purge spam he doesn't like and not so much the strength of the heal that bothers him (although he isn't happy about it) it is the "smart" aspect, that is, a player without understanding the situation can mash a button and just happen to heal someone 20 meters away without knowing about it. Had he articulated his complaints as such instead of claiming BoL was "bugged," I would be more understanding of where he is coming from, but the reality is there is so much damage flying around Cyrodiil - much more than actual "healing" can keep pace with (i.e. barrier/purge spam is not "healing") - that BoL needs to be able to work as it does to be competitive. As it as a DPS spec worth their salt can out-damage a BoL spammer.

When you convince ZoS to get rid of animation canceling and reintroduce soft caps which has made instant-burst DPS out of control and make it so using a resto staff doesn't tank your spellpower, then I'll begin to suggest ways to make healing more "skilled" as you put it. High damage is instant, healing has to be instant to. And, if ZoS is actually serious about nerfing the barrier and purge cap to the point where they are not spammable options, the you and FENGRUSH and everyone else that hoped aboard the anti-healing bandwagon are going to find out real quick that it was never Templars spamming BoL that kept raids alive.

I'm all for having making the other templar skills like blazing shield and the old blinding flashes actually semi-efficient again as you suggest. But BoL is not "blatantly OP."

You're right, there is a lot of damage flying around cyrodiil, that is why individual players have many defensive skills at their disposal... On the whole, BoL is barely necessary for a skilled group, as well placed Healing Springs, Rapid Regen and a well timed Healing Ward is enough. However, to be effective at this role as healer, you need to be situationally aware and understand group play... or... in the current state of the game you can grab some random PUG and tell them to mash one button, and this is just as effective. You see my point? BoL is just far too convenient, the nerf I suggest will only hurt groups with healers who are not well aware of their environment. I'll say it again, I have extensive experience with PvP and PvE group healing, I am well aware that it is not BoL keeping raids alive. So why are you so against the nerf? If you want an instant healing skill to save an ally in smaller group play, use healing ward, heal preemptively, or CC and put pressure on your opponent(s).

Healing Ward is an example of a well balanced smart heal. It must be timed well to ensure maximum efficiency, and to ensure it is going to the priority target, and will give the target being healed a fair chance to recover... not total invulnerability until the Templar is focused.

I do not want BoL to remain as a competitive heal in groups, I think that it is better suited as a primarily solo oriented survival skill. This is where a total rework of Healing Ritual comes in to play, I would not suggest nerfing BoL group capabilities unless this change came with an appropriate alteration to Healing Ritual, such that Templars could retain their niche. The rework would need to eliminate the smart heal aspect of Templar healing , however retain the Templar's potential as well balanced healers. This would manufacture a situation such that the 1vX and general survivability aspects of the Templar class could be brought up to par with say NBs or Sorcs, without making them an OP class.

The general aim of many of the Templar threads I see nowadays is to bring Templars to the same level of overall effectiveness in all situations (mainly considering open world PvP) as classes such as NB or Sorc, which is great, I think that the NB class is perfectly balanced, and the Sorc class is not far off with a rework or damage shield mechanics. But... imagine if Templars reached this point... and were also unbeatable 1 button mashing healers... this would be objectively OP.
You cannot have both. Either Templars remain extremely noob friendly heal bots, or they become a more well rounded class that satisfies players all across the spectrum of playstyles and interests. Take your pick.

As for animation cancelling, this is not class specific, and I would not be opposed to a slight rework, especially as with my ping issues (300+ in PvP, no matter what time of day), animation cancelling is much more difficult to take advantage of. I also agree that DW being the optimal weapon setup for magicka Templars is absurd, and think the spell and weapon damage gap should be balanced differently. Your weapon choice should be about your preferences of weapon based skills (if you choose to use any). I know this is off topic but it is actually so essential that this happens, it would allow for so much better build diversity and playstyles.

If you think your raid can just grab a random PUG to spam BoL and have that role addressed in anything resembling competence, I am not sure there can be a worthy discussion. I happen to think healing is a bit more complicated than something a trained chimpanzee could adequately do. Then again, I might be biased. Probably frustration from seeing 5 ambushes and 5 steel tornadoes on my death recaps from those diversified and high skill demanding DPS specs out there.

I don't see your point. Because I see what happens to my raid when a single person misses their barrier rotation and we are stuck relying on these allegedly unskilled OP heals yet somehow we wipe in seconds.

How exactly is restricting the big heal so it can only go on me making me a more skillful healer to the group? Or do you mean that I should be the one intentionally taking damage instead of my teammates to ensure the big heal, the only one worth a damn, isn't wasted? Do you honestly think an expensive spell putting out two 3.5k heals every global cooldown will have any effect at all when in that same global cooldown you got a dozen steel tornadoes, prox dets, residual siege fire, and other damage skills literally tearing through your group? Who in their right mind would *ever* cast, let alone slot, such a spell and call themselves a group healer? I could use the crappy restoration staff and put a bigger heal and 6 of my members by using combat prayer, which also gives them the benefit of a damage boost. It seems to me you have not thought very deeply about group healing and your suggestions regarding BoL are just the consequence of your impression that Tempalrs are mostly, how did you put it, "noob friendly heal bots."

AfkNinja

Dovahmiim wrote: »

"BOL is not an issue at all"... "smart healing however is stupid".
Ummm...

Yes, it is stupid because frequently the heal I need goes to the wrong person, not in my group, resulting in death. I specified this already, maybe if you had read what I wrote you would have understood it?

In no way shape or form is Breath of Life by itself overpowered. 1 50% strength burst heal (15k if crit) and 2 25% (7500 if crit) burst heals is not gamebreaking in PVP. The only scenario where it can be unfair is when you have small group pvp with multiple Templar's in the same group. The same issue happens with multiple barriers etc and other defenses.

Dovahmiim

AfkNinja wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

"BOL is not an issue at all"... "smart healing however is stupid".
Ummm...

Yes, it is stupid because frequently the heal I need goes to the wrong person, not in my group, resulting in death. I specified this already, maybe if you had read what I wrote you would have understood it?

In no way shape or form is Breath of Life by itself overpowered. 1 50% strength burst heal (15k if crit) and 2 25% (7500 if crit) burst heals is not gamebreaking in PVP. The only scenario where it can be unfair is when you have small group pvp with multiple Templar's in the same group. The same issue happens with multiple barriers etc and other defenses.

Funnily enough you stated my argument for me. I have no issue with the strength of BoL, it as a burst heal is fantastic. My nerf will only really affect small group PvP, but my suggested alterations to other facets of the class will make the Templar far better for roles other than just healers. If you want the skill to remain as it is, expect Templar to be second rate for all things in PvP bar healing, simple as that.

timidobserver

Dovahmiim wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Eclipse: Given the suggested cooldown, it only being able to be on one person at a time, and the limitation of only reflecting ranged projectiles, I am okay with purge being the only way to get rid of it.

Right now, I would only use eclipse if I were trying to solo a Sorc. It isn't worth it in any other situation for me. I would prefer to take up my CC immunity with a stun and try to burst my enemy down while they are stunned.

Rushed Ceremony: You typed nothing that would make me want to take such a huge nerf to Breath of Life. Most of your suggestions are small tweaks, obvious bug fixes, or vague buff this in some unspecified way. To you, forcing Templar to to "use more skill" and be easier for Fengrush to deal with seems to be your primary goal and all of the tradeoff that you need. My view is that I require equal value in exchange for anything that is taken away.

Also, I disagree with this demigod business you keep going on about. All it takes is one or two good werewolves to completely shutdown most Templar healers.

Eclipse: But... for any Templar who is attempting to take on more than 1 target, it is important for Eclipse not to be limited to one target... and it reflects ALL single target spells, not just projectiles. I'm sorry, but having used the skill extensively, and been on the receiving end extensively, I just don't think a lack of a break free option would be balanced. It would be overpowered and likely nerfed in a future patch if that were to happen. We may have to agree to disagree, which is fine considering ZoS have stated they are reworking the skill anyway, so they likely have something in mind or set in stone already.

Rushed Ceremony: I've articulated my full point of view regarding BoL in my previous reply to Joy_Division, it explains why I think the smart heal component of the skill is simply too powerful, and discourages any sort of positioning or skillful play. Whether or not I can think of a perfect trade off such that Templars retain their healing niche is irrelevant, BoL, as the ability stands, is OP with respect to group effectiveness. I would not advocate a fix for this however unless an appropriate trade off is made, that is all I am saying. Actually yes, I would like the role of Templar healer in PvP to require some element of skill, as it stands you literally just need to spam the break free button while watching health bars of you group to be effective as a Templar healer. A Templar would, if anything, be far harder for Fengrush to deal with with my suggested changes. A BoL cast would be always give its main heal to the caster, and the class would have more proactive defenses.

My best idea right now for a heal to give Templars similar effectiveness as healers, while introducing an actual element of positioning, and battle awareness, is to have a cone based heal, similar in nature to Puncturing Sweeps. This heal would have a small cast time, maybe 0.5s (I think instant cast would be too much, I don't know) and then function as a HoT centered on the caster, even with movement. Secondary benefits could be based off of distance from target (while facing them as it is a cone heal), severity of allies wounds, something like that, and give bonuses to healing crit chance or healing strength or something. There you have it, a skill that would allow Templars to be VERY effective healers if this skill was balanced correctly, especially with a better arsenal of defensive skills and resource management. I can also see this being good as it would give an incentive for the player targeting a group with a Templar healer to separate targets from the healer. The notion that I am just trying to gimp the Templar class, when I literally only play a Templar in solo/group PvP is laughable.

I said demigod with respect to healing in groups, you can shut down a Templar healer a variety of different ways. I find it easiest with dark flare.

Eclipse: I am working off of the current state of the ability on live, which is limited to one target. It is rare for ZOS to blatantly roll back a change they made, because it says "we were wrong", so I assume that part of the ability won't be changing. So, the point of my changes is to make it more effective as an ability that can only be applied to one target at a time. Eclipse is not effective against the majority of the current meta. Sorcs aside, applying eclipse is a waste of time against at least 75% of the builds that people are running right now.

In the event that it goes back to being multi-target, I would be fine with just adding a medium duration stun or immobilize on breaking or cleansing it. If the target waits out the duration they skip the CC.

Rushed Ceremony: The trade off is irrelevant to you, but it is all that matters to me. I am against trading a effective heal for a less effective heal for the sake of forcing skilled play. You keep offering up less effective heals as a trade off, but I don't want that. I don't want magicka Vigor or a fail cone Templar combat prayer. Whenever the Templar community asks why they don't have various things(immobilize, aoe cc, strong ultimates, escape, dps, mobility, ect), the resounding answer is "cause BoL." So, if BoL takes a heavy nerf, I want those things.

Your primary focus is the nerf. I doubt you would have even made this post if you weren't set on BoL getting nerfed. It was literally your first post on the forums. My focus is getting the most of the deal that Templar can get for the class as a whole in all impacted environments and playstyles, not just the 1vX special interest group.

I was talking about groups as well. A well played Werewolf is the hard counter to the Templar healer(group or solo.) Particularly once the announced purge nerf arrives. People cannot be healed through heavy burst if major defile is being rapidly applied to them. It's why meat bags wreck groups that don't have dedicated purge spammers. Werewolves are basically walking/mobile meatbag catapults.

Minno

BOL criticism being OP stems from a lack of limits on skills in regards to walls,LOS situations. To combat this issue is to look at other skills that ignore walls/doors/objects in the way of your target. Till then, BOL topics will always be Templar Nerf thread.

With that said, BOL won't keep you alive. Yes, when target is at low health, the heals vs mana cost is super efficient againat other skills. But a good Templar healer will not spam this skill unless needed. You should be using HOTs for top off, healing springs for dps burn stages, repen for cheap heals and stam recov and debuffs/buffs to aid your group.

BOL is actually a healing "execute" only to be used similar to how healing ward functions;pop it at low heal for biggest returns. In small group, you can use the morph that returns magicka, since you ideally will be hitting HtD at less than 75%. Yes it sucks in large raids, but with smart healing, it will target a low health friendly anyway.

AfkNinja

Dovahmiim wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

"BOL is not an issue at all"... "smart healing however is stupid".
Ummm...

Yes, it is stupid because frequently the heal I need goes to the wrong person, not in my group, resulting in death. I specified this already, maybe if you had read what I wrote you would have understood it?

In no way shape or form is Breath of Life by itself overpowered. 1 50% strength burst heal (15k if crit) and 2 25% (7500 if crit) burst heals is not gamebreaking in PVP. The only scenario where it can be unfair is when you have small group pvp with multiple Templar's in the same group. The same issue happens with multiple barriers etc and other defenses.

Funnily enough you stated my argument for me. I have no issue with the strength of BoL, it as a burst heal is fantastic. My nerf will only really affect small group PvP, but my suggested alterations to other facets of the class will make the Templar far better for roles other than just healers. If you want the skill to remain as it is, expect Templar to be second rate for all things in PvP bar healing, simple as that.

Your idea to limit the ONE BIG HEAL that we get with BOL to self only would GUT the ability. No one is going to use it with those changes, we'll change to using healing springs or combat prayer instead. The proposed benefits just don't outweigh gutting this skill imo. Then what happens with Honor the Dead? Self heal only? No thanks.

Dovahmiim

Joy_Division wrote: »

If you think your raid can just grab a random PUG to spam BoL and have that role addressed in anything resembling competence, I am not sure there can be a worthy discussion. I happen to think healing is a bit more complicated than something a trained chimpanzee could adequately do. Then again, I might be biased. Probably frustration from seeing 5 ambushes and 5 steel tornadoes on my death recaps from those diversified and high skill demanding DPS specs out there.

I don't see your point. Because I see what happens to my raid when a single person misses their barrier rotation and we are stuck relying on these allegedly unskilled OP heals yet somehow we wipe in seconds.

How exactly is restricting the big heal so it can only go on me making me a more skillful healer to the group? Or do you mean that I should be the one intentionally taking damage instead of my teammates to ensure the big heal, the only one worth a damn, isn't wasted? Do you honestly think an expensive spell putting out two 3.5k heals every global cooldown will have any effect at all when in that same global cooldown you got a dozen steel tornadoes, prox dets, residual siege fire, and other damage skills literally tearing through your group? Who in their right mind would *ever* cast, let alone slot, such a spell and call themselves a group healer? I could use the crappy restoration staff and put a bigger heal and 6 of my members by using combat prayer, which also gives them the benefit of a damage boost. It seems to me you have not thought very deeply about group healing and your suggestions regarding BoL are just the consequence of your impression that Tempalrs are mostly, how did you put it, "noob friendly heal bots."

You seem to be talking almost exclusively with respect to PvP raid gameplay... I am starting to see why you do now see my suggested changes to other aspects of the class as a fair trade. How often do you run Templar for 1vX or small group? This is especially strange considering raid combat is near irrelevant to the strength of BoL, as it is an inefficient group heal outside of small group combat.

I have grabbed a random PUG, got him to spam BoL with ritual (in small group), and it has been more than effective. Again, your reply suggests you are entirely focused on zerg/large scale combat. With a skill that automatically targets the lower health players, at a decent range, with very decent heals (especially with a crit) it really is something a trained chimpanzee could do. I have tested this monotonous playstyle before to make sure my criticisms are accurate. You attempt to justify the broken aspects of BoL by listing other broken mechanics, all of which you actually have the advantage over anyway due to AoE caps that affect damage but not heals.

It makes you a more effective healer because you will also get higher proactive defense to balance out my BoL changes, which will synergise far better with Healing Springs spam and Rapid Regen spam, which are the heals of choice for the zerg vs zerg gameplay you seem to be entirely focused on. Your arguments about BoL therefore become nullified in this particular regard. I wouldn't expect you to understand, with your focus entirely on zerg vs zerg, you would not see much benefit from more focus on individual survivability and utility. I have thought deeper than you about group healing, as I would like my class to favour all playstyles, and not just the large scale combat you seem to prefer Templars are "noob friendly heal bots", this is not my impression when a skill that renders allies (at least in smaller scale combat) unkillable until the Templar is focused. Again, I would know, as I appear to have far more small scale experience than you do.

Again, we can go back and forth all day, I see no resolution being made, but I found the discussion interesting For the record, I have absolutely no issue with Templars in PvP, because I abuse our OP heals just as much as the next Templar. However, I also enjoy solo and small scale, where the second rate nature of the class is very apparent. I would just like to see the gap between the god like utility of Templars in groups, and the sub par effectiveness of solo Templars be somewhat erased, to favour more versatility. I only see this happening with a tone down on the Templar's insane group effectiveness, but if you can think of aa better way, I'm all ears. Thanks again mate, I'll reply to your suggestion regarding the final part only, as I have articulated my viewpoint enough I think.

Dovahmiim

timidobserver wrote: »

Eclipse: I am working off of the current state of the ability on live, which is limited to one target. It is rare for ZOS to blatantly roll back a change they made, because it says "we were wrong", so I assume that part of the ability won't be changing. So, the point of my changes is to make it more effective as an ability that can only be applied to one target at a time. Eclipse is not effective against the majority of the current meta. Sorcs aside, applying eclipse is a waste of time against at least 75% of the builds that people are running right now.

In the event that it goes back to being multi-target, I would be fine with just adding a medium duration stun or immobilize on breaking or cleansing it. If the target waits out the duration they skip the CC.

Rushed Ceremony: The trade off is irrelevant to you, but it is all that matters to me. I am against trading a effective heal for a less effective heal for the sake of forcing skilled play. You keep offering up less effective heals as a trade off, but I don't want that. I don't want magicka Vigor or a fail cone Templar combat prayer. Whenever the Templar community asks why they don't have various things(immobilize, aoe cc, strong ultimates, escape, dps, mobility, ect), the resounding answer is "cause BoL." So, if BoL takes a heavy nerf, I want those things.

Your primary focus is the nerf. I doubt you would have even made this post if you weren't set on BoL getting nerfed. It was literally your first post on the forums. My focus is getting the most of the deal that Templar can get for the class as a whole in all impacted environments and playstyles, not just the 1vX special interest group.

I was talking about groups as well. A well played Werewolf is the hard counter to the Templar healer(group or solo.) Particularly once the announced purge nerf arrives. People cannot be healed through heavy burst if major defile is being rapidly applied to them. It's why meat bags wreck groups that don't have dedicated purge spammers. Werewolves are basically walking/mobile meatbag catapults.

Eclipse: Ooo I forgot about how prideful ZoS are, fair point! I agree with what you're saying, my primary concern is only with the whole break-free issue, hopefully ZoS has reworked the skill so that this point isn't really relevant.

Rushed Ceremony I have literally given countless examples of why the trade-off is crucial... are you not even reading what I type? I suggest you reread or I will feel compelled to quote myself lol. You are trading the group component of high heals instant cast/heal ability with higher overall Templar defense, sustain, while gaining a skill that in my mind could be just as, if not more effective, if used by a highly skilled and well positioned player.

Other than that, you made my point for me, which is why I'm very confused.
So, if BoL takes a heavy nerf, I want those things. (immobilize, aoe cc, strong ultimates, escape, dps, mobility,etc)
Dude... this is literally what I've been saying this entire time, you couldn't have worded it better! THIS IS THE TRADE OFF I WANT AS WELL! It brings more balance and options to the class other than being a healer in a group. I play a solo Templar, I would like to stack up to the other classes.

My primary focus is not the nerf actually, I'd much rather discuss cool ideas to expand upon defensive options for the Templar, while improving resource management in creative ways. But in the class's current state, this won't happen unless we sacrifice some of our got tier healing power in PvP (specifically small group). I am set on nerfing BoL's smart component to justify gain in other facets of the class... how have you not picked up on this?? Why do you think I have put great stress on having a very strong AoE non smart heal to replace Healing Ritual?? If you are advocating for Templar to gain all the things you mentioned earlier, while staying in a league of their own when it comes to group utility, then your focus may be in the right place, but your sense of reality is not.

Are you implying that the WW Major Defile component is not purgable? I didn't know this... But I feel as though my AoE range cast Major Defile / stealth reveal (Dark Flare) suits the role quite well too...

Dovahmiim

AfkNinja wrote: »

Your idea to limit the ONE BIG HEAL that we get with BOL to self only would GUT the ability. No one is going to use it with those changes, we'll change to using healing springs or combat prayer instead. The proposed benefits just don't outweigh gutting this skill imo. Then what happens with Honor the Dead? Self heal only? No thanks.

I take it you're another Templar who never steps foot in to Cyrodiil without their large group with them... that in and of itself renders your opinion less valid (not being hostile, I could be wrong about your experience limitation outside of zerg combat, that's just how it comes across). It is my intention to gut the ability, and give the Templar healers a strong AoE/cone HoT (perhaps with magnitude bonus based on severity of wounds). In addition you would be getting several proactive defensive skills, and higher sustain. I would take all these changes at once, or none at all

AfkNinja

Dovahmiim wrote: »

I take it you're another Templar who never steps foot in to Cyrodiil without their large group with them... that in and of itself renders your opinion less valid (not being hostile, I could be wrong about your experience limitation outside of zerg combat, that's just how it comes across)

I have played large scale pvp, I hate it. I like small scale pvp, mostly roam solo or with a Templar buddy of mine. I also roll Vet dungeons as a healer or dps as magicka and pure dps when I'm stamina. Attacking my experience with the game is a false arguing tactic called ad hominem. Discuss and articulate the merits of your idea don't attack the person disagreeing.
My OPINION is not invalid....it is an OPINION.

First, you know nothing about me. NOTHING.
Second, you don't get to decide who's opinion is valid. That's why it's called an OPINION.
Third, just because I think your idea is bad doesn't mean I don't think smart healing should be changed.
Fourth, maybe you should add your feedback to the Templar feedback thread here (Gina asked me to start this thread for the developers to review for the Q1 2016 balance changes) : http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/234362/templar-issues-thread/p1

Fifth, I fully understand exactly what you wrote, I read all of it and I disagreed. Big deal. The changes you suggested would result in me never using breath of life again, I would instead use Honor the Dead (for myself) and whatever other heals I have available like Healing Springs or Combat Prayer. (If they give us major mending combat prayer can hit 6 people with a pretty decent heal. Same for multiple other heals in the game.)

I just thought it was a bad idea, no need to get so defensive.

Dovahmiim

AfkNinja wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

I take it you're another Templar who never steps foot in to Cyrodiil without their large group with them... that in and of itself renders your opinion less valid (not being hostile, I could be wrong about your experience limitation outside of zerg combat, that's just how it comes across)

I have played large scale pvp, I hate it. I like small scale pvp, mostly roam solo or with a Templar buddy of mine. I also roll Vet dungeons as a healer or dps as magicka and pure dps when I'm stamina. Attacking my experience with the game is a false arguing tactic called ad hominem. Discuss and articulate the merits of your idea don't attack the person disagreeing.
My OPINION is not invalid....it is an OPINION.

First, you know nothing about me. NOTHING.
Second, you don't get to decide who's opinion is valid. That's why it's called an OPINION.
Third, just because I think your idea is bad doesn't mean I don't think smart healing should be changed.
Fourth, maybe you should add your feedback to the Templar feedback thread here (Gina asked me to start this thread for the developers to review for the Q1 2016 balance changes) : http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/234362/templar-issues-thread/p1

Fifth, I fully understand exactly what you wrote, I read all of it and I disagreed. Big deal. The changes you suggested would result in me never using breath of life again, I would instead use Honor the Dead (for myself) and whatever other heals I have available like Healing Springs or Combat Prayer. (If they give us major mending combat prayer can hit 6 people with a pretty decent heal. Same for multiple other heals in the game.)

I just thought it was a bad idea, no need to get so defensive.

When it comes to opinions, the likelihood of one opinion being correlated more closely with the reality of a subject matter is very much dependent on the merit of the person with said opinion. For example someone who has played Templar in all roles extensively since beta vs somebody who has never played Templar at all.

You state that in the event that BoL only heals you, you would seriously consider running Healing Springs or Combat Prayer. These are skills and a mentality commonly associated with large group oriented players, hence I acknowledged a possibility that you may be a group oriented player, therefore with limited experience. Regardless of this, I was making a strictly if statement, as you say, you roam solo or in small group, therefore my assumption is incorrect and in effect my questioning of your validity on the topic is erased, how did you say it? "no need to get so defensive"

Your first point made me chuckle.. and cringe slightly..

Second point, see above.

Third, well then how would you change the skill, or tone down Templar's vastly superior group healing ability to warrant an improvement in their sustain and defensive capability? I see criticisms but no solutions.

Fourth, I'll give it a read... man I hope they actually listen to what is in it though.

Fifth, sure, one morph would give regen and one could give secondary heals to close allies, seems like fair odds. Remember, I would never advocate for a BoL nerf without Healing Ritual being reworked to the point where Templar Healers can be just as effective in group play, but with better positioning and awareness needed, with a strong proximity based HoT or variant thereof. Its either both or neither.

Ironic you should bring up me being defensive, when in a thread where I bring many great ideas to the table to improve most of the Templar skills, all the Templars jump in to defend the one suggested nerf and ignore talking about the suggested improvements.

jhharvest

I think all opinions stated in this thread are pretty balanced and valid, if only different approaches to the same problem.

timidobserver

Dovahmiim wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Eclipse: I am working off of the current state of the ability on live, which is limited to one target. It is rare for ZOS to blatantly roll back a change they made, because it says "we were wrong", so I assume that part of the ability won't be changing. So, the point of my changes is to make it more effective as an ability that can only be applied to one target at a time. Eclipse is not effective against the majority of the current meta. Sorcs aside, applying eclipse is a waste of time against at least 75% of the builds that people are running right now.

In the event that it goes back to being multi-target, I would be fine with just adding a medium duration stun or immobilize on breaking or cleansing it. If the target waits out the duration they skip the CC.

Rushed Ceremony: The trade off is irrelevant to you, but it is all that matters to me. I am against trading a effective heal for a less effective heal for the sake of forcing skilled play. You keep offering up less effective heals as a trade off, but I don't want that. I don't want magicka Vigor or a fail cone Templar combat prayer. Whenever the Templar community asks why they don't have various things(immobilize, aoe cc, strong ultimates, escape, dps, mobility, ect), the resounding answer is "cause BoL." So, if BoL takes a heavy nerf, I want those things.

Your primary focus is the nerf. I doubt you would have even made this post if you weren't set on BoL getting nerfed. It was literally your first post on the forums. My focus is getting the most of the deal that Templar can get for the class as a whole in all impacted environments and playstyles, not just the 1vX special interest group.

I was talking about groups as well. A well played Werewolf is the hard counter to the Templar healer(group or solo.) Particularly once the announced purge nerf arrives. People cannot be healed through heavy burst if major defile is being rapidly applied to them. It's why meat bags wreck groups that don't have dedicated purge spammers. Werewolves are basically walking/mobile meatbag catapults.

Eclipse: Ooo I forgot about how prideful ZoS are, fair point! I agree with what you're saying, my primary concern is only with the whole break-free issue, hopefully ZoS has reworked the skill so that this point isn't really relevant.

Rushed Ceremony I have literally given countless examples of why the trade-off is crucial... are you not even reading what I type? I suggest you reread or I will feel compelled to quote myself lol. You are trading the group component of high heals instant cast/heal ability with higher overall Templar defense, sustain, while gaining a skill that in my mind could be just as, if not more effective, if used by a highly skilled and well positioned player.

Other than that, you made my point for me, which is why I'm very confused.
So, if BoL takes a heavy nerf, I want those things. (immobilize, aoe cc, strong ultimates, escape, dps, mobility,etc)
Dude... this is literally what I've been saying this entire time, you couldn't have worded it better! THIS IS THE TRADE OFF I WANT AS WELL! It brings more balance and options to the class other than being a healer in a group. I play a solo Templar, I would like to stack up to the other classes.

My primary focus is not the nerf actually, I'd much rather discuss cool ideas to expand upon defensive options for the Templar, while improving resource management in creative ways. But in the class's current state, this won't happen unless we sacrifice some of our got tier healing power in PvP (specifically small group). I am set on nerfing BoL's smart component to justify gain in other facets of the class... how have you not picked up on this?? Why do you think I have put great stress on having a very strong AoE non smart heal to replace Healing Ritual?? If you are advocating for Templar to gain all the things you mentioned earlier, while staying in a league of their own when it comes to group utility, then your focus may be in the right place, but your sense of reality is not.

Are you implying that the WW Major Defile component is not purgable? I didn't know this... But I feel as though my AoE range cast Major Defile / stealth reveal (Dark Flare) suits the role quite well too...

I've read everything you've typed. You leave a lot of stuff vague and undefined for "those smarter and more creative" than you to come up with. Of the buffs and nerfs you've gotten specific on and defined, it doesn't balance out well enough for me. I'd need a very specific and significant increase to DPS(sustained and burst), CC, and mobility, in order to be okay with an extreme nerf to Breath of Life. Those things are not reflected specifically in what you've posted.

WW defile is definitely purgable, but WW Major Defile is the only easily spammable AoE major defile in the game that I can think of off the top of my head. The others are either attached to siege, ultimates, single target, or cast times. A WW can put a lot of pressure on a healer, because contrary to this unstoppable demigod stuff, it is hard to heal through spammed major defile.

Anyway, I am about done with this as it is just going in circles now. Contrary to popular belief, ZOS does read this stuff, so sometimes I try to add opposing, differing, or alternative viewpoints to threads asking for Templar nerfs(yes I know that the nerf is only a portion of your request.) I've said my piece, so will agree to disagree on any remaining differences

Joy_Division

I like how the OP keeps telling everyone that doesn't agree that they are a zergballer and know nothing about snall-group play.

Dovahmiim

Joy_Division wrote: »

I like how the OP keeps telling everyone that doesn't agree that they are a zergballer and know nothing about snall-group play.

All the in-game examples you cited to support your point of view were related to large group, zergball gameplay... literally all of them. Again, if you can think of a way to balance out the class so it is as effective as NB in many facets of PvP gameplay, while sacrificing some aspect of our class's extremely apparent healing convenience advantage as to not make the class OP, I'm all ears. If you can't, do not bother replying.

cazlonb16_ESO

1vX is not something that should be balanced for and that is even excluding the major responsiveness issues many players still experience ( on the PC platform, on consoles I have no idea how you would even notice ).

The class needs a very substantial buff outside of 24/7 healbotting in a raid though and anyone claiming otherwise is frankly delusional.

Dovahmiim

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

1vX is not something that should be balanced for and that is even excluding the major responsiveness issues many players still experience ( on the PC platform, on consoles I have no idea how you would even notice ).

The class needs a very substantial buff outside of 24/7 healbotting in a raid though and anyone claiming otherwise is frankly delusional.

I mean 1vX in the commonly accepted sense, just general survivability methods and tools. Other classes (except magicka DK atm) are very well balanced for 1vX. I agree with everything you just said, and while I love how ez mode it is to be a heal god, if Templar is to lose anything to justify the buffs we want/need, it should be our healbot capacity. Otherwise our class would simply be too powerful.

eliisra

Dovahmiim wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

1vX is not something that should be balanced for and that is even excluding the major responsiveness issues many players still experience ( on the PC platform, on consoles I have no idea how you would even notice ).

The class needs a very substantial buff outside of 24/7 healbotting in a raid though and anyone claiming otherwise is frankly delusional.

I mean 1vX in the commonly accepted sense, just general survivability methods and tools. Other classes (except magicka DK atm) are very well balanced for 1vX. I agree with everything you just said, and while I love how ez mode it is to be a heal god, if Templar is to lose anything to justify the buffs we want/need, it should be our healbot capacity. Otherwise our class would simply be too powerful.

You're forgetting that ZoS is against 1vX. They dont want you to take on multiple enemies solo. Only way to 1vX successfully now after all gameplay changes, is going IC or some quest hub and attacking scared PvE'ers not interested in fighting.

Other classes aren't as bad as templars solo'ing in PvP, for sure. But we cant say they have the tools for 1vX. No one has. Last time magicka sorc's could do it was 1.6. Now they get immobilized by gap closer spam trying to kite, Bolt Escape cant be used to the end of the world, get rekt by shield breaker and ofc the 50% dmg reduction prevents them from fast kills.

Magicka DK's haven't been able to 1vX since 1.5. Stamina DK's, due to physical ultimate and heavy sneak attacks, can kill fast. But good luck getting out after engaging X or trying to soak dmg.

NB version of 1vX is sneak, instakill a guy or two and run away. Than come back and do it all over again.

Templars need better tools to play offensively and backing themselves up in PvP. They need more viable playstyles than heal- and support bot in raids. I totally agree on all of that. But let's not use the term "1vX" like it's something we're entitled to. It's not supported by the devs in the first place

Neoauspex

One of the underlying problems that this thread really highlights is the way Templar skill lines are focused on specific segments of gameplay. It makes sense to group skills according to theme, but it causes a real lack of diversity in character builds because intelligent players all choose roughly the same skills since they are more effective. This pigeonholes everybody into a similar role.

Instead of the players who are discontent with this role needing to request a sacrifice for gains in a preferred playstyle, it'd be more efficient if players just had to make a choice between playstyle when selecting skills rather than simply evaluating which skills are better. To some extent this is exactly how the stamina morphs work, but currently the system is just giving the choice between Stamina and Magika yet offers no real diversity within those subsets.

So instead of nerfing Breath of Life, it'd be interesting to see the other morph just not have anything to do with healing. Make it a really good PvP skill, mobility or cc or dps boost, just make it as good as Breath of Life so people have to (and get to) choose. There are lots of Templar skills where one morph is clearly better than the other... I think they should not only be balanced but also diversified (and I still like my Rune of Thunderdome idea from the main Templar bugs thread to contrast Channelled Focus!). I think they could add a lot of customization to the game if they added morph options to just one passive in each class skill line. If they get some bugs fixed with Thieves Guild that's a step in the right direction.

Dovahmiim

Neoauspex wrote: »

One of the underlying problems that this thread really highlights is the way Templar skill lines are focused on specific segments of gameplay. It makes sense to group skills according to theme, but it causes a real lack of diversity in character builds because intelligent players all choose roughly the same skills since they are more effective. This pigeonholes everybody into a similar role.

Instead of the players who are discontent with this role needing to request a sacrifice for gains in a preferred playstyle, it'd be more efficient if players just had to make a choice between playstyle when selecting skills rather than simply evaluating which skills are better. To some extent this is exactly how the stamina morphs work, but currently the system is just giving the choice between Stamina and Magika yet offers no real diversity within those subsets.

So instead of nerfing Breath of Life, it'd be interesting to see the other morph just not have anything to do with healing. Make it a really good PvP skill, mobility or cc or dps boost, just make it as good as Breath of Life so people have to (and get to) choose. There are lots of Templar skills where one morph is clearly better than the other... I think they should not only be balanced but also diversified (and I still like my Rune of Thunderdome idea from the main Templar bugs thread to contrast Channelled Focus!). I think they could add a lot of customization to the game if they added morph options to just one passive in each class skill line. If they get some bugs fixed with Thieves Guild that's a step in the right direction.

Very interesting idea, I didn't even consider that. I don't think it should be a mobility or DPS boost, Templar is where it should be for those departments, but perhaps a self heal with a secondary proactive element? My issue is that for a Templar that needs to survive, the burst heal is very useful , which is why Templars who run solo still use the heal. So I'm thinking the other morph of BoL would instead only heal the caster, but have a very powerful secondary effect, perhaps applying the blinding flashes debuff on cast?

Okay... I've really been looking for a reason to stop playing devil's advocate with the whole BoL nerf thing, but I felt as though the class needed to make some form of trade to warrant being buffed in other areas. But I now prefer your solution, where this trade is off is made through the choice of the BoL morph. I suggest this tooltip description for the other morph, to make it the clearly superior choice for a Templar who enjoys solo play more: "Focus your inner light to heal yourself for [x] amount and blind nearby enemies. Blinded enemies have a 50% chance to miss and be set off balance for [y] seconds". Sounds pretty good eh

@Joy_Division @AfkNinja @timidobserver Would you guys prefer this solution? Instead of the class as whole making a sacrifice, it is more down to the morphs the player chooses that dictate what they sacrifice and in which area of gameplay. For the record, I still have a few issues with the smart healing component, but I'd much rather focus on increasing build diversity and options with this new solution.

As for the Rune of Thunderdome, I had a chuckle reading that from memory, was that the suggestion to add some sort of immobolise element to enemies who enter the radius, similar to that skill you see vampire NPCs use in IC sewers? If so, then I really like that idea, if the Templar class were to get an immobolise, this would be a unique and class defining way to implement such a change. If any ZoS devs are reading this, I will only accept this change if the skill is actually named "Rune of Thunderdome" .

Neoauspex

Dovahmiim wrote: »

As for the Rune of Thunderdome, I had a chuckle reading that from memory, was that the suggestion to add some sort of immobolise element to enemies who enter the radius, similar to that skill you see vampire NPCs use in IC sewers? If so, then I really like that idea, if the Templar class were to get an immobolise, this would be a unique and class defining way to implement such a change. If any ZoS devs are reading this, I will only accept this change if the skill is actually named "Rune of Thunderdome" .

Enemies inside the Rune of Thunderdome cannot leave.

Dovahmiim

Neoauspex wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

As for the Rune of Thunderdome, I had a chuckle reading that from memory, was that the suggestion to add some sort of immobolise element to enemies who enter the radius, similar to that skill you see vampire NPCs use in IC sewers? If so, then I really like that idea, if the Templar class were to get an immobolise, this would be a unique and class defining way to implement such a change. If any ZoS devs are reading this, I will only accept this change if the skill is actually named "Rune of Thunderdome" .

Enemies inside the Rune of Thunderdome cannot leave.

Would be hilarious for trolling, but far too powerful. The only way to balance such a mechanic in my opinion is to apply an immobolise to enemies who enter the vacinity of the rune, which can be purged or roll dodged out of. However, if they were to enter the vacinity again, the immobolise would be applied again. This could be used to counter WB spammers by forcing them to enter the vacinity, and would encourage a more 'hold your ground' Templar playstyle.

AfkNinja

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

One of the underlying problems that this thread really highlights is the way Templar skill lines are focused on specific segments of gameplay. It makes sense to group skills according to theme, but it causes a real lack of diversity in character builds because intelligent players all choose roughly the same skills since they are more effective. This pigeonholes everybody into a similar role.

Instead of the players who are discontent with this role needing to request a sacrifice for gains in a preferred playstyle, it'd be more efficient if players just had to make a choice between playstyle when selecting skills rather than simply evaluating which skills are better. To some extent this is exactly how the stamina morphs work, but currently the system is just giving the choice between Stamina and Magika yet offers no real diversity within those subsets.

So instead of nerfing Breath of Life, it'd be interesting to see the other morph just not have anything to do with healing. Make it a really good PvP skill, mobility or cc or dps boost, just make it as good as Breath of Life so people have to (and get to) choose. There are lots of Templar skills where one morph is clearly better than the other... I think they should not only be balanced but also diversified (and I still like my Rune of Thunderdome idea from the main Templar bugs thread to contrast Channelled Focus!). I think they could add a lot of customization to the game if they added morph options to just one passive in each class skill line. If they get some bugs fixed with Thieves Guild that's a step in the right direction.

Very interesting idea, I didn't even consider that. I don't think it should be a mobility or DPS boost, Templar is where it should be for those departments, but perhaps a self heal with a secondary proactive element? My issue is that for a Templar that needs to survive, the burst heal is very useful , which is why Templars who run solo still use the heal. So I'm thinking the other morph of BoL would instead only heal the caster, but have a very powerful secondary effect, perhaps applying the blinding flashes debuff on cast?

Okay... I've really been looking for a reason to stop playing devil's advocate with the whole BoL nerf thing, but I felt as though the class needed to make some form of trade to warrant being buffed in other areas. But I now prefer your solution, where this trade is off is made through the choice of the BoL morph. I suggest this tooltip description for the other morph, to make it the clearly superior choice for a Templar who enjoys solo play more: "Focus your inner light to heal yourself for [x] amount and blind nearby enemies. Blinded enemies have a 50% chance to miss and be set off balance for [y] seconds". Sounds pretty good eh

@Joy_Division @AfkNinja @timidobserver Would you guys prefer this solution? Instead of the class as whole making a sacrifice, it is more down to the morphs the player chooses that dictate what they sacrifice and in which area of gameplay. For the record, I still have a few issues with the smart healing component, but I'd much rather focus on increasing build diversity and options with this new solution.

As for the Rune of Thunderdome, I had a chuckle reading that from memory, was that the suggestion to add some sort of immobolise element to enemies who enter the radius, similar to that skill you see vampire NPCs use in IC sewers? If so, then I really like that idea, if the Templar class were to get an immobolise, this would be a unique and class defining way to implement such a change. If any ZoS devs are reading this, I will only accept this change if the skill is actually named "Rune of Thunderdome" .

Rune of Thunderdome: two people enter, one person leaves! Do it! I would love a skill that prevents someone running away when I am winning.

There are lots of changes they could make to BOL/HTD I wouldn't mind. My main concern is if they are going to nerf it they need to give us enough in return to make it balance out. Limiting the main heal to yourself on BOL is just something I can't accept because then it's almost identical to Honor the dead. I don't use BOL for the secondary heals, they are just a bonus. We still need a big burst heal that's instant for when someone gets almost one shot in raids etc. (If they nerf it anyway I may be forced to just use Healing Ward -_- )

I personally would like Honor the Dead changed. Change the 15% mp regen to stamina regen or maybe change the bonus effect to "healed target takes 15% less damage for 5 seconds". I would love the dmg resistance.

It's really hard to determine what changes can be made to Breath of Life/Honor the Dead though until I see what they do with Healing Ritual. I just don't have any confidence ZOS knows how to balance Templar, I have hope they get it right and a lot of fear they will not.

Neoauspex

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Would be hilarious for trolling, but far too powerful. The only way to balance such a mechanic in my opinion is to apply an immobolise to enemies who enter the vacinity of the rune, which can be purged or roll dodged out of. However, if they were to enter the vacinity again, the immobolise would be applied again. This could be used to counter WB spammers by forcing them to enter the vacinity, and would encourage a more 'hold your ground' Templar playstyle.

Way too powerful. But hilarious.