What animation cancelling is - detailed explanation
Maintenance for the week of March 17:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – March 17
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – March 19, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – March 19, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – March 17
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – March 19, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – March 19, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
Asmael
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
✭✭
This is a compendium about Animation cancelling. Too many times, people complain about it, complain about macros making it overpowered, and downright not understanding animation cancelling, macros, and GCD.
This is NOT a "animation cancelling is great! Keep it ingame!" thread, this is a post made to prevent misunderstandings, and avoid posts like "animation cancelling allows people to use 5 skills in less than 1 second, it should not be ingame". I, myself, use animation cancelling all the time, and it has pretty much become second nature to me. What follows exists so that it is clear when animation cancelling is involved, and when it's not.
What is animation cancelling and how does it work?
Animation cancelling, let's call it AC for short, is the act of interrupting an action's animation to quickly chain various actions. For instance, if using a light attack takes 0.5 seconds to execute, but the damage happens 0.3 seconds after the start of the animation, you'll wait only 0.3 seconds, then execute another action, ignoring the remaining 0.2 seconds and earning some precious time.
The possible actions are, as follow:
- Light / Heavy attacks
- Abilities (Lava whip, Surprise Attack, Wrecking Blow... pretty much everything)
- Block / Bash
- Dodge roll
- Weapon Swap
The current system uses the notion of GCD - Global CoolDown, for every action mentioned above, as well as a priority system. Basically, you want to start using the lowest priority actions first, to gain maximum benefit out of those, which is why you'll use a Light / heavy attack (lowest priority), an ability (medium priority), and then, depending on the situation, a bash / dodge roll / block / weapon swap (high priority).
Animation cancelling does NOT allow you to break the GCD of an action: if Surprise Attack has a GCD of 0.9 seconds, you CAN'T cast it more than once every 0.9 seconds. All abilities share the same GCD (some abilities have a longer channeling time than GCD tho), so you can't chain different abilities faster than usual.
However, each action's GCD is independent of other actions, which allows you to almost instantly use a light attack, an ability and a bash, because they run on different cooldowns.
Why do you have to start using lower priority actions first?
Higher priority actions will override any lower priority actions and prevent their use, which means that you can't dodge roll, and cancel it with an ability or light attack, you can, however, use an ability / light attack and cancel those with a dodge roll.
What abilities may or may not be cancelled?
EVERYTHING can be cancelled, even channeled abilities, tho channeled abilities work slightly differently (and sometimes bug out, see Crystal Frags).
The usual rotations with a non-channeled ability areLight attack > ability > bash, light attack > ability > dodge roll. With channeled abilities, you're rarely using the bash, but usually use a medium / heavy weave at the end of the channeling, so if you were to use Jabs / Puncturing Sweep, you would go with Jabs > Medium weave, and repeat.
I'll not detail every single possible rotation, because of the sheer number of those. Best way to go is just to try it yourself.
--
Now for misunderstandings of AC and comments I keep reading, and that should not be!
"I died because of animation cancelling and that dude just fired like 5 skills at once."
Nope, see above, not possible because of GCD. AC does increase your overall DPS (and make generating ultimate slightly easier, since we currently get ultimate only from light / heavy attacks), but canno't break it.
Note that it is possible to have many different attacks hitting the same target all at the same time, which makes it look like it was all fired at the same time, one such rotation is: Focused Aim > heavy bow attack > Poison Injection > Ambush (+ Camo hunter procs), which makes it look like as if 5+ attacks were fired at the same time. In that case, AC is used here to cancel the Focused Aim animation.
"Animation cancelling in combination with macros allow people to fire multiple skills at once."
Once again, false, but this is a double misunderstanding here, of both AC and macros. Macros allow you to realize multiple actions in succession with a single press of a button, but it doesn't allow you to bypass GCDs and do things otherwise not possible without its use.
Note that using macros is forbidden. Don't do it. You shouldn't delete AC because of macros, because you can use macros for everything. Note that thanks (because of?) to GCD, you gain no extra advantage using macros with AC (but you do risk the banhammer).
"Animation cancelling is an exploit."
I'll just link this thread and the following video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs
TL;DR: No, it's not an exploit, more like an unintended side effect of the combat engine, accepted by the devs. The devs are very well aware of it and don't intend to delete it anytime soon. You can still, of course, discuss whether they should change delete AC.
"Animation cancelling doesn't exist in MMOs, ESO shouldn't have it."
Oh my, not only it exists in other MMOs, but it also exists in completely different games, solo and multiplayers: many FPS (Borderland), RTS (Starcraft I & II), MMORPGs (SWTOR), TPS / RPG (Mass effect), and I could go on for a long time.
"Animation cancelling is required to be competitive."
I'd be lying to say this is false. Yes, AC does increase your DPS, especially with SnB builds, and overall allows your action to be chained pretty quickly. So, yes, AC is required to be competitive. Whether it should or not be required is another question.
"Animation cancelling can break your fingers."
Yes someone made that comment once. I don't need to say this isn't even close to truth. I'm hitting 400 APM on Starcraft II (which is much faster than what I do on ESO) and have yet to break my fingers.
"There is no tutorial for animation cancelling ingame, there should be one."
It's part of the "fix AC or make it available to everyone" question and can't be answered objectively. Pass.
"ZoS says AC is not an exploit just because they can't fix it."
They didn't mention they couldn't fix it, so anything on this matter is nothing but rumors and wild guesses. Let's avoid that kind of things, it brings nothing constructive. Discussing whether or not AC should be changed is not a rant and can lead to constructive critcism, make the diff.
"AC makes it so that animations aren't visible, so it's hard to react right when someone cancels everything, because you don't know what someone actually does, such has a DK cancelling the animation of his wings."
This is an interesting one, which leads to the question "what abilities are not recognizable at all if cancelled?". Turns out there are very few of those, mostly weapon skills with effects that are hardly visible, or no effects at all (Rally, Ransack, Heroic Slash). Do note that this is only true if you use an animation cancelling action after using an ability (e.g bash / dodge roll for non-channeled abilities), using only Light attack > ability will make the ability play its animation for its full length.
"AC is extremely buggy with some skills."
This is true, and this mostly affects channeled abilities: Crystal Fragments, Dark Flare, and WB are the most noticeable. In some cases, the end of the animation of the ability doesn't play at all, and instead play the heavy attack animation. These should definitely be fixed visually.
--
Next time you see someone saying something incorrect about AC, feel free to point them to this thread.
...And of course, correct me if I am wrong in any fact (not opinion) stated here.
Thank you for reading.
UPDATE : Added video showcasing the issue with Wrecking Blow.
Edited by Asmael on 22 December 2015 09:48 This is NOT a "animation cancelling is great! Keep it ingame!" thread, this is a post made to prevent misunderstandings, and avoid posts like "animation cancelling allows people to use 5 skills in less than 1 second, it should not be ingame". I, myself, use animation cancelling all the time, and it has pretty much become second nature to me. What follows exists so that it is clear when animation cancelling is involved, and when it's not.
What is animation cancelling and how does it work?
Animation cancelling, let's call it AC for short, is the act of interrupting an action's animation to quickly chain various actions. For instance, if using a light attack takes 0.5 seconds to execute, but the damage happens 0.3 seconds after the start of the animation, you'll wait only 0.3 seconds, then execute another action, ignoring the remaining 0.2 seconds and earning some precious time.
The possible actions are, as follow:
- Light / Heavy attacks
- Abilities (Lava whip, Surprise Attack, Wrecking Blow... pretty much everything)
- Block / Bash
- Dodge roll
- Weapon Swap
The current system uses the notion of GCD - Global CoolDown, for every action mentioned above, as well as a priority system. Basically, you want to start using the lowest priority actions first, to gain maximum benefit out of those, which is why you'll use a Light / heavy attack (lowest priority), an ability (medium priority), and then, depending on the situation, a bash / dodge roll / block / weapon swap (high priority).
Animation cancelling does NOT allow you to break the GCD of an action: if Surprise Attack has a GCD of 0.9 seconds, you CAN'T cast it more than once every 0.9 seconds. All abilities share the same GCD (some abilities have a longer channeling time than GCD tho), so you can't chain different abilities faster than usual.
However, each action's GCD is independent of other actions, which allows you to almost instantly use a light attack, an ability and a bash, because they run on different cooldowns.
Why do you have to start using lower priority actions first?
Higher priority actions will override any lower priority actions and prevent their use, which means that you can't dodge roll, and cancel it with an ability or light attack, you can, however, use an ability / light attack and cancel those with a dodge roll.
What abilities may or may not be cancelled?
EVERYTHING can be cancelled, even channeled abilities, tho channeled abilities work slightly differently (and sometimes bug out, see Crystal Frags).
The usual rotations with a non-channeled ability areLight attack > ability > bash, light attack > ability > dodge roll. With channeled abilities, you're rarely using the bash, but usually use a medium / heavy weave at the end of the channeling, so if you were to use Jabs / Puncturing Sweep, you would go with Jabs > Medium weave, and repeat.
I'll not detail every single possible rotation, because of the sheer number of those. Best way to go is just to try it yourself.
--
Now for misunderstandings of AC and comments I keep reading, and that should not be!
"I died because of animation cancelling and that dude just fired like 5 skills at once."
Nope, see above, not possible because of GCD. AC does increase your overall DPS (and make generating ultimate slightly easier, since we currently get ultimate only from light / heavy attacks), but canno't break it.
Note that it is possible to have many different attacks hitting the same target all at the same time, which makes it look like it was all fired at the same time, one such rotation is: Focused Aim > heavy bow attack > Poison Injection > Ambush (+ Camo hunter procs), which makes it look like as if 5+ attacks were fired at the same time. In that case, AC is used here to cancel the Focused Aim animation.
"Animation cancelling in combination with macros allow people to fire multiple skills at once."
Once again, false, but this is a double misunderstanding here, of both AC and macros. Macros allow you to realize multiple actions in succession with a single press of a button, but it doesn't allow you to bypass GCDs and do things otherwise not possible without its use.
Note that using macros is forbidden. Don't do it. You shouldn't delete AC because of macros, because you can use macros for everything. Note that thanks (because of?) to GCD, you gain no extra advantage using macros with AC (but you do risk the banhammer).
"Animation cancelling is an exploit."
I'll just link this thread and the following video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs
TL;DR: No, it's not an exploit, more like an unintended side effect of the combat engine, accepted by the devs. The devs are very well aware of it and don't intend to delete it anytime soon. You can still, of course, discuss whether they should change delete AC.
"Animation cancelling doesn't exist in MMOs, ESO shouldn't have it."
Oh my, not only it exists in other MMOs, but it also exists in completely different games, solo and multiplayers: many FPS (Borderland), RTS (Starcraft I & II), MMORPGs (SWTOR), TPS / RPG (Mass effect), and I could go on for a long time.
"Animation cancelling is required to be competitive."
I'd be lying to say this is false. Yes, AC does increase your DPS, especially with SnB builds, and overall allows your action to be chained pretty quickly. So, yes, AC is required to be competitive. Whether it should or not be required is another question.
"Animation cancelling can break your fingers."
Yes someone made that comment once. I don't need to say this isn't even close to truth. I'm hitting 400 APM on Starcraft II (which is much faster than what I do on ESO) and have yet to break my fingers.
"There is no tutorial for animation cancelling ingame, there should be one."
It's part of the "fix AC or make it available to everyone" question and can't be answered objectively. Pass.
"ZoS says AC is not an exploit just because they can't fix it."
They didn't mention they couldn't fix it, so anything on this matter is nothing but rumors and wild guesses. Let's avoid that kind of things, it brings nothing constructive. Discussing whether or not AC should be changed is not a rant and can lead to constructive critcism, make the diff.
"AC makes it so that animations aren't visible, so it's hard to react right when someone cancels everything, because you don't know what someone actually does, such has a DK cancelling the animation of his wings."
This is an interesting one, which leads to the question "what abilities are not recognizable at all if cancelled?". Turns out there are very few of those, mostly weapon skills with effects that are hardly visible, or no effects at all (Rally, Ransack, Heroic Slash). Do note that this is only true if you use an animation cancelling action after using an ability (e.g bash / dodge roll for non-channeled abilities), using only Light attack > ability will make the ability play its animation for its full length.
"AC is extremely buggy with some skills."
This is true, and this mostly affects channeled abilities: Crystal Fragments, Dark Flare, and WB are the most noticeable. In some cases, the end of the animation of the ability doesn't play at all, and instead play the heavy attack animation. These should definitely be fixed visually.
--
Next time you see someone saying something incorrect about AC, feel free to point them to this thread.
...And of course, correct me if I am wrong in any fact (not opinion) stated here.
Thank you for reading.
UPDATE : Added video showcasing the issue with Wrecking Blow.
PC EU - Zahraji of the Void, aka "Kitty", the fluffiest salmon genocider in town.
Poke @AsmaeI (last letter is uppercase "i") on PC EU or Asmael#9325 on Discord and receive a meow today.
Poke @AsmaeI (last letter is uppercase "i") on PC EU or Asmael#9325 on Discord and receive a meow today.
27
-
Eocosa✭✭✭As someone who avoids AC threads like the plague due to them consistently turning into a verbal slug fest, I want to say thank you for your post!
You addressed many different topics and questions about the subject in a very objective manner which I appreciate!
Great job!3 -
SemiD4rkness✭✭✭✭✭Id love if the game didn't have AC, but since it is anyway there's nothing more beautiful than melt people with light attack+Ransack+Bash. Nice post btw.0 -
WolfingHour✭✭✭✭AC is great and I hope it never goes way since it adds and extra layer of complexity to the combat system.
The bugs with channelled abilities need to be address asap though.1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭You missed one glaring point.
Using AC dramatically reduced the cost per DPS.
I assume the cost remains the same whether a skill is AC or not ?
ie. it bypasses resource management by the back door.
So not only do you get higher DPS...you get cheaper DPS
Which is why I will always think about it as an exploit until the cost per DPS issue is fixed.
ie half the time & same damage = 2x cost
At least that would fix the burst damage vs resource management issueEdited by Rune_Relic on 20 December 2015 17:31Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Instant✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »You missed one glaring point.
Using AC dramatically reduced the cost per DPS.
I assume the cost remains the same whether a skill is AC or not ?
ie. it bypasses resource management by the back door.
So not only do you get higher DPS...you get cheaper DPS
Which is why I will always think about it as an exploit until the cost per DPS issue is fixed.
ie half the time & same damage = 2x cost
How can you think it is an exploit when ZOS explicitly says it's not?Peace is a lie, there is only passion.2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
How can you think it is an exploit when ZOS explicitly says it's not?
Same skill fraction of the price, higher DPS.
Quite simple really.
Note the....I will always think ...part of my statement.
If you don't animation cancel you are gimping yourself resource wise and TTK wise.
I do it. If I didn't I would be dead first every time.
Simple as that.
Which is the right cost per dps ?
The non cancelled rotation of skills or the cancelled one ?Edited by Rune_Relic on 20 December 2015 17:44Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »
Same skill fraction of the price, higher DPS.
Quite simple really.
Note the....I will always think ...part of my statement.
If you don't animation cancel you are gimping yourself resource wise and TTK wise.
I do it. If I didn't I would be dead first every time.
Simple as that.
Which is the right cost per dps ?
The non cancelled rotation of skills or the cancelled one ?
Are you trying to say skills cost less when you cancel them? Even if you somehow sped up the activation of skills which required a resource cost, that would only make it harder to manage your resource because you'd be going through them quicker. I can't even believe I'm trying to argue that the cost of the skill is the same...6 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Are you trying to say skills cost less when you cancel them? Even if you somehow sped up the activation of skills which required a resource cost, that would only make it harder to manage your resource because you'd be going through them quicker. I can't even believe I'm trying to argue that the cost of the skill is the same...
This is why I avoid AC threads, people convince themselves of nonsense and go around spreading it like they're some kind of authority.The Age of Wrobel.4 -
Forestd16b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here's the short version of AC.
AC is a broken mechanic in the game of ESO and needs to be fixed/removed but to do so would force ZOS to re-do the combat system and they don't want to cause there more worried about the crown store shelves.5 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Here's the short version of AC.
AC is a broken mechanic in the game of ESO and needs to be fixed/removed but to do so would force ZOS to re-do the combat system and they don't want to cause there more worried about the crown store shelves.
You have any idea how long it would take to redo the combat system? It's by no stretch of the imagine a simple process. It would take years, and they would need to take ESO down in the meantime. Why would a company do that, seriously. The resources needed for that would be more productively spent just developing another game.
0 -
Omgwtfbbq321✭✭✭The only time I have an issue with people animation canceling is when someone uses a weighted bow with some nice weapon damage and manages to get 4 snipes and 3 light attacks on me before I am even cued for combat.
I could literally be mounting my horse and be killed instantly. I wont see a single shot, I wont hear a sound. I will just have my resources drain suddenly and I fall over. If it wasn't for a death recap, I wouldn't even know it was snipe.
Its not too common to come across, but its definitely irritating to say the least.
I am pretty sure poison injection can also be used in this way.My ping is higher than your resource recovery...0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »The only time I have an issue with people animation canceling is when someone uses a weighted bow with some nice weapon damage and manages to get 4 snipes and 3 light attacks on me before I am even cued for combat.
I could literally be mounting my horse and be killed instantly. I wont see a single shot, I wont hear a sound. I will just have my resources drain suddenly and I fall over. If it wasn't for a death recap, I wouldn't even know it was snipe.
Its not too common to come across, but its definitely irritating to say the least.
I am pretty sure poison injection can also be used in this way.
You're are experiencing lag+ flight time. Snipe from full range without AC you can get 3 off before the first one hits, they will not hit at the same time just moments after each other. With just a little bit of lag, you will appear to die instantly when in fact they all hit within about 2-3s but you couldn't see them until you died.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Are you trying to say skills cost less when you cancel them? Even if you somehow sped up the activation of skills which required a resource cost, that would only make it harder to manage your resource because you'd be going through them quicker. I can't even believe I'm trying to argue that the cost of the skill is the same...
No I think he's trying to say that the creator's budgeted X amount of damage for X time period and AC gets you more within the same time period, its not that you getting more skills in just that you are getting more damage and thus somehow circumventing the resource cost per time.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
aLi3nZ✭✭✭✭I use it. A little extra dps but I mainly like it because it helps me build ultimate weaving in light attacks with destro staff crushing shock. It also looks pretty cool to have flames shooting out with every spell.0
-
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great post op. Would like to point out that animation cancelling exists in CS:GO also, which is why players switch to secondary after an awp shot.PC | EU0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »The only time I have an issue with people animation canceling is when someone uses a weighted bow with some nice weapon damage and manages to get 4 snipes and 3 light attacks on me before I am even cued for combat.
I could literally be mounting my horse and be killed instantly. I wont see a single shot, I wont hear a sound. I will just have my resources drain suddenly and I fall over. If it wasn't for a death recap, I wouldn't even know it was snipe.
Its not too common to come across, but its definitely irritating to say the least.
I am pretty sure poison injection can also be used in this way.
I honestly believe this has less to do with animation cancelling and more to do with projectile travel time, latency and high damage from stealth.PC | EU0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Are you trying to say skills cost less when you cancel them? Even if you somehow sped up the activation of skills which required a resource cost, that would only make it harder to manage your resource because you'd be going through them quicker. I can't even believe I'm trying to argue that the cost of the skill is the same...
The cost per hit is the same.
The cost per DPS is not.
All skills originally took a fixed amount of time.
Because the time was fixed.....the DPS could be costed properly by just applying cost per hit (as the time didn't vary the DPS didn't vary).
So this is the way it has always traditionally been done.
That fixed cost / dps / hit has been removed.
The ability to use animation cancelling means that link has been lost.
Cost per hit has always been meaningless when balancing any game since the year dot, unless the time component is controlled.
ie. Ths skill cost the same....the DPS is cheaper.
The fact you burn resources quicker isn't the point.
Your TTK being massively enhanced but costing the same is.
eg. Player 1 will use same skills as player 2.
Player 1 cancels, Player 2 doesn't cancel.
Player 1 kills, player 2 everytime without fail...as TTK has been reduced through enhanced DPS.
What did player 2 get as compensation for player 1s DPS advantage ?... Nothing.
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »
The cost per hit is the same.
The cost per DPS is not.
All skills originally took a fixed amount of time.
Because the time was fixed.....the DPS could be costed properly by just applying cost per hit (as the time didn't vary the DPS didn't vary).
So this is the way it has always traditionally been done.
That fixed cost / dps / hit has been removed.
The ability to use animation cancelling means that link has been lost.
Cost per hit has always been meaningless when balancing any game since the year dot, unless the time component is controlled.
ie. Ths skill cost the same....the DPS is cheaper.
The fact you burn resources quicker isn't the point.
Your TTK being massively enhanced but costing the same is.
eg. Player 1 will use same skills as player 2.
Player 1 cancels, Player 2 doesn't cancel.
Player 1 kills, player 2 everytime without fail...as TTK has been reduced through enhanced DPS.
What did player 2 get as compensation for player 1s DPS advantage ?... Nothing.
The game is designed and balanced around animation cancelling...so everyone can get the same DPS for the same costs.
btw.: player 2 needs to learn to animation cancel ;-)Noobplar4 -
Instant✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »
The cost per hit is the same.
The cost per DPS is not.
All skills originally took a fixed amount of time.
Because the time was fixed.....the DPS could be costed properly by just applying cost per hit (as the time didn't vary the DPS didn't vary).
So this is the way it has always traditionally been done.
That fixed cost / dps / hit has been removed.
The ability to use animation cancelling means that link has been lost.
Cost per hit has always been meaningless when balancing any game since the year dot, unless the time component is controlled.
ie. Ths skill cost the same....the DPS is cheaper.
The fact you burn resources quicker isn't the point.
Your TTK being massively enhanced but costing the same is.
eg. Player 1 will use same skills as player 2.
Player 1 cancels, Player 2 doesn't cancel.
Player 1 kills, player 2 everytime without fail...as TTK has been reduced through enhanced DPS.
What did player 2 get as compensation for player 1s DPS advantage ?... Nothing.
Don't you think it is fair that Player 1 does more DPS because he is using a game mechanic that requires skill?Peace is a lie, there is only passion.0 -
terrasight✭✭✭I use it...it's nice... and can help a lot (for me more in PvE).
Syphoning strikes... LA->SA -> love it...Hekat'e / Hel'a Niflheim - Sorc / Necro - PS5 EU0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just to add in a few this to the "5 abilities in a second" argument. There are 2 things that could be happening, or is normal mechanics and the other is an exploit.
Someone using a gap closer and another ability as soon as they hit - this is valid game play. The GCD is triggered when the gap closer takes place, so if I hit crit charge and take .6 seconds to connect to the target, in as little as .3 seconds I can be using executioner in no time, making it so you get hit twice in an instant.
the guy popped off my screen and suddenly I was hit with 5 or so abilities and I was dead! this can be a lot of things, including an exploit using lag. I won't get into details about the gows, since ZOS doesn't like having folks copycat it, but to spot it take a look for:
1. Were the abilities that hit you active abilities? Things like camo hunter, weapon procs, etc. are passives, but if its like 5 surprise attacks in a row, that would be suspicious. If they hit you with 2 attacks though and instantly kill you though it's probably just a glass cannon build.
2. Are you certain it was less than a second? Recording these incidents will help with reporting but can also remind you that what seemed like an instant to you was actually 10 to 20.
3. Was the person twitching, teleporting, or exhibiting laggy behavior? It doesn't need to be all the time, but if the person in question is acting wierd outside of the sudden damage spikes then it's worth noting.
4. Does this person repeatedly do it? This is important, since lag can happen to you as well as other players. But if this person is constantly able to kill players and you notice the symptoms above, you may have an exploiter.
Report any exploitingto ZOS. They will not reveal the results, but I have seen certain players rake extended vacations after they have been reported. At the very least it will help you vent.3 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The game is designed and balanced around animation cancelling...so everyone can get the same DPS for the same costs.
btw.: player 2 needs to learn to animation cancel ;-)
No its not the same cost.
People who cant/wont cancel pay more.
Don't you think it is fair that Player 1 does more DPS because he is using a game mechanic that requires skill?
You think someone with better ping and a macro keyboard/mouse is a better player than someone who hasn't ?
I think someone who has higher DPS should be paying a higher cost.
So it has always been with every higher damage skill.
That's why some skills cost more than others....perhaps you should look.
There are lots of skills.
All of which have different times and costs.
That means some skills benefit much better from animation cancelling than others.
That means some skill have a real, real good cost/dps/hit.
So I understand many of you would have a lot to lose if that crutch was taken away.
You can call it a skill.
Many people with arthritis and such would call it agony.
Besides you are missing the point.
I said the cost / dps / hit is an issue.
If that's corrected it doesn't give you an advantage.
But its never ever been about fair play has it ?
Its always been about what can I exploit the most to give me the greatest advantage over everyone else.
How long can I pull the wool over ZOS eyes or keep something secret for personal gain.
Edited by Rune_Relic on 21 December 2015 16:23Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Instant✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »
No its not the same cost.
People who cant/wont cancel pay more.
You think someone with better ping and a macro keyboard/mouse is a better player than someone who hasn't ?
I think someone who has higher DPS should be paying a higher cost.
So it has always been with every higher damage skill.
That's why some skills cost more than others....perhaps you should look.
There are lots of skills.
All of which have different times and costs.
That means some skills benefit much better from animation cancelling than others.
That means some skill have a real, real good cost/dps/hit.
So I understand many of you would have a lot to lose if that crutch was taken away.
You can call it a skill.
Many people with arthritis and such would call it agony.
Besides you are missing the point.
I said the cost / dps / hit is an issue.
If that's corrected it doesn't give you an advantage.
But its never ever been about fair play has it ?
Its always been about what can I exploit the most to give me the greatest advantage over everyone else.
How long can I pull the wool over ZOS eyes or keep something secret for personal gain.
If it's just about cost/dps then think about heavy attacks for a while.Peace is a lie, there is only passion.1 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭HeroOfNone wrote: »the guy popped off my screen and suddenly I was hit with 5 or so abilities and I was dead! this can be a lot of things, including an exploit using lag. I won't get into details about the gows, since ZOS doesn't like having folks copycat it, but to spot it take a look for:
1. Were the abilities that hit you active abilities? Things like camo hunter, weapon procs, etc. are passives, but if its like 5 surprise attacks in a row, that would be suspicious. If they hit you with 2 attacks though and instantly kill you though it's probably just a glass cannon build.
@HeroOfNone
My death recap in Cyrodil, if I've been ganked by one player, most often says Stealth Attack, Stealth Attack, Stealth Attack, Stealth Attack and then a 5th odd thing, usually steel tornado. I have about 38k health in Cyrodil; a NB can take me out in about 3 seconds this way.
I've been assuming this is the root/stun effect of spamming Stealth Attack and not a player exploit. Am I wrong?0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭
@HeroOfNone
My death recap in Cyrodil, if I've been ganked by one player, most often says Stealth Attack, Stealth Attack, Stealth Attack, Stealth Attack and then a 5th odd thing, usually steel tornado. I have about 38k health in Cyrodil; a NB can take me out in about 3 seconds this way.
I've been assuming this is the root/stun effect of spamming Stealth Attack and not a player exploit. Am I wrong?
Check the time, is it 3 seconds and are they getting 5 consecutive hits on you? That would break GCD and should be reported if it consistently happens with the same player.
Keep in my word of caution though with not realizing how long a fight is. It may feel short because you got stunned, needed to break free, try to get an ability off, and another, stunned again, then dead. Typically when you see the exploit as described you'll have little to no time to react.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭HeroOfNone wrote: »Check the time, is it 3 seconds and are they getting 5 consecutive hits on you? That would break GCD and should be reported if it consistently happens with the same player.
Keep in my word of caution though with not realizing how long a fight is. It may feel short because you got stunned, needed to break free, try to get an ability off, and another, stunned again, then dead. Typically when you see the exploit as described you'll have little to no time to react.
LOL, actually it feels like it takes about an hour because I know how it's going to end. I can't break free, period. Is it the same player? I dunno; I can say it's always EP.
Maybe I should turn on FTCs death recap screen for more details and note player names. I think I still lean toward it being players "exploiting" a messed up game mechanic, not an illegal exploit.0 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »
No its not the same cost.
People who cant/wont cancel pay more.
You think someone with better ping and a macro keyboard/mouse is a better player than someone who hasn't ?
I think someone who has higher DPS should be paying a higher cost.
So it has always been with every higher damage skill.
That's why some skills cost more than others....perhaps you should look.
There are lots of skills.
All of which have different times and costs.
That means some skills benefit much better from animation cancelling than others.
That means some skill have a real, real good cost/dps/hit.
So I understand many of you would have a lot to lose if that crutch was taken away.
You can call it a skill.
Many people with arthritis and such would call it agony.
Besides you are missing the point.
I said the cost / dps / hit is an issue.
If that's corrected it doesn't give you an advantage.
But its never ever been about fair play has it ?
Its always been about what can I exploit the most to give me the greatest advantage over everyone else.
How long can I pull the wool over ZOS eyes or keep something secret for personal gain.
Are you really saying that you need a keyboard/mouse with macro keys in order to animation cancel, and that it's not about skill because if you have arthritis you might be skilled but unable to win because of animation cancelling? I mean how does any of this have anything to do with what you're talking about?
The cost is the same. End of story. If player 2 tried to face tank enough incoming damage to kill him without using any defensive skills or potions then player 2 is bad and should die regardless. You don't get a handicap because someone else plays the game better than you. You mention ping, too. Why doesn't ZOS eliminate ping from the game? How many times has someone lost a fight because the other person had lower ping and was thus able to activate their abilities faster? How is that balanced or fair? ZOS please fix ping asap!
You're right, all skills have specific costs that are more or less based on how powerful they are. So what's the problem with finding a way of outputting high damage while maintaining good efficiency? Your idea of someone having to pay more resources just because they know how to play the game and do more damage than someone ignorant to game mechanics is laughable. You should stop posting before you embarrass yourself any further... in all of the threads your spouting nonsense in.2 -
Most_Awesome✭✭✭✭✭AC is a load of dog crap, I can set up macros on my naga mouse to block cancel every skill I use, yes it can be done manualy but why bother.
Like what has already been said
Player 1 NB spams SA
Player 2 NB spams SA/ with a block cancel
Player 2 wins every time
Macros can make pull off flawless combos every time
On my Sorc I could macro say my 12 button for my oh shite button that will swap to my restro staff and cast healing ward,block,hardend ward,block,harness magica,block0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭
LOL, actually it feels like it takes about an hour because I know how it's going to end. I can't break free, period. Is it the same player? I dunno; I can say it's always EP.
Maybe I should turn on FTCs death recap screen for more details and note player names. I think I still lean toward it being players "exploiting" a messed up game mechanic, not an illegal exploit.
I'm not naming any particular player, it's actually been more than one in the past. But naming anyone, regardless of proven guilt, is against the TOS so let's just say some have used this exploit before and some one new will exploit it after. It's not as wide spread as some think, but it's important to report it. The issue I'm describing is definitely an exploit and not done by something in game, it's an exploit in the netcode of certain games.
As for the permanent lock down that's a seperate issue with various reasons, some intentional and some done by accident. Hopefully it's high on the ZOS list of things to fix. Running radiant magelight helps a ton though I will say.
FTC may help, realize it can be unreliable at times, don't expect the logs to be the best way to report things.Edited by HeroOfNone on 21 December 2015 20:450
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZa4c-WZoE