Stop being cookie cutter

chuckselegy

Guys/gals, it's almost unbearable with all the "what's his build" (Erkel tone) going on.
Come on! Just read the tool tips and make YOUR decision. If you get a skill and it isn't what you want well, as you level and collect skyshards then you can buy other skills. And if you get all the way to v16 and don't have a clue as to how you want to run your build, I don't know what to tell you. Unless you're grinding, with which you probably have a clue how this game works and you're probably a pvp'er, you're gonna have enough experience playing you'll learn what works.
Its that simple, read the tool tips and play your character. And experiment!

Don't be afraid to make a mistake.
For those of you that say well, I wanna min/max, get to end game quick, have an OP build like this guy or that, I wanna be competitive. You will be...if you build your character and learn how to actually play it instead of copy and pasting the newest spambush or shield stacking toon. Hell, with all your experimenting you may end up discovering a really OP build of your own or you may end up at the same thing a JackDaniels, Blabafat, Sypher, Kingrichard, Fengrush, or Lefty Lucy is running.

Just play the game folks!

Cathexis

This is a direct copy from another thread, but it pertains to the use of metabuilds with a hyper dps focus.

This (instant kill) mentality I don't understand. That's like saying you don't want your opponent to win or lose as a margin of skill/error, because they should always just automatically die when you attack them. This attitude is what seriously undermines the quality of combat in this game. I'm really getting sick of this hard dps instant kill mentality people want so badly. Not only is it lazy, but it brings down the quality of combat by turning the game into who can hit first. Why have different classes at all if players just want to have instant kills, there is no point in being a healer or a tank or mobile if ultimately the first person to hit wins.

I want my opponent to fight back. I want them to resist so when I do beat them, my skill is exercised and improved.

Thelon

Or you might end up running a Pet Build. Who does that?

chuckselegy

Cathexis wrote: »

This is a direct copy from another thread, but it pertains to the use of metabuilds with a hyper dps focus.

This (instant kill) mentality I don't understand. That's like saying you don't want your opponent to win or lose as a margin of skill/error, because they should always just automatically die when you attack them. This attitude is what seriously undermines the quality of combat in this game. I'm really getting sick of this hard dps instant kill mentality people want so badly. Not only is it lazy, but it brings down the quality of combat by turning the game into who can hit first. Why have different classes at all if players just want to have instant kills, there is no point in being a healer or a tank or mobile if ultimately the first person to hit wins.

I want my opponent to fight back. I want them to resist so when I do beat them, my skill is exercised and improved.

I didn't realize a thread of this sort already existed. I just tune in to streams or see people posting in Facebook groups about "what's his/her build?" It's just getting irritating.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

chuckselegy wrote: »

Guys/gals, it's almost unbearable with all the "what's his build" (Erkel tone) going on.
Come on! Just read the tool tips and make YOUR decision. If you get a skill and it isn't what you want well, as you level and collect skyshards then you can buy other skills. And if you get all the way to v16 and don't have a clue as to how you want to run your build, I don't know what to tell you. Unless you're grinding, with which you probably have a clue how this game works and you're probably a pvp'er, you're gonna have enough experience playing you'll learn what works.
Its that simple, read the tool tips and play your character. And experiment!

Don't be afraid to make a mistake.
For those of you that say well, I wanna min/max, get to end game quick, have an OP build like this guy or that, I wanna be competitive. You will be...if you build your character and learn how to actually play it instead of copy and pasting the newest spambush or shield stacking toon. Hell, with all your experimenting you may end up discovering a really OP build of your own or you may end up at the same thing a JackDaniels, Blabafat, Sypher, Kingrichard, Fengrush, or Lefty Lucy is running.

Just play the game folks!

Sithis yes, love all of this but we both know that this will not resonate with the people that copy paste builds.

Trail and error is how I can melt face with just 2.8k fully buffed weapon damage.
Independent thinking is not for everyone.
Nevermind that the person that made the build don't think like you. Will not react the same way as you would.

My build works wonders on my Argonian had two different guildies run it on min/max races and failed bad simply cause we don't respond the same way. They had much better stats and it didn't work out cause of how I see things.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Thelon wrote: »

Or you might end up running a Pet Build. Who does that?

Leave my little mini Tank out of this my Sorc Spams that Shield on him so much he rarely dies to players while downing CCs.

Pets are not all bad they will never kill on their own but the have their roles.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Think cookie cutters care ? They just want the "I win" build and when they get killed by the very same build the immediately come onto the forums and cry nerf and cry stop using cookie cutter builds.

Cycle of stupidity at it's finest.

Thelon

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

Or you might end up running a Pet Build. Who does that?

Leave my little mini Tank out of this my Sorc Spams that Shield on him so much he rarely dies to players while downing CCs.

Pets are not all bad they will never kill on their own but the have their roles.

@kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I was being a bit cheeky.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/

DaveMoeDee

Or, instead of complaining about how others build their characters the OP could take his own advice and 'just play the game'.

Gilliamtherogue

I'd rather see cookie cutter builds than the stuff that makes it to the Battle Master's Corner... At least players can get a sense of why certain skills are utilized in almost all end game builds as they can begin noticing patterns of what stats are important for what, rather than just throwing together a bunch of miss matched garbage that has trouble clearing things 10 levels below them.

I don't think people who go to cookie cutter builds are looking for a "win all" button where they recieve instant gratification, but rather to get an idea of what the end game consists of. I can't even say ZoS does a poor job of teaching players how to play the game on any level, because they literally don't have anything in game implemented on how to play other than basic controls and reactions (dodge/block/etc). When a new player comes into ESO they are bombarded with a ton of information that can easily be ignored until level cap content. The state of questing and most non grouped content is all so easily answered by numbers or a few attempts rather than progressive learning in character control/development.

Right now the game lacks and explanation of mechanics such as weaving, importance of ability usage, or technical performance (block casting, usage of the Priority System, etc). You can level from 1-50 and v1-v16 by light attacking things to death or pressing a button five times in a row. Then you get to end game with content like vMA, WGT/ICP, or trials and all of a sudden it feels like the game is the opposite of what you leveled up with. There are DPS/Heal/Tank checks in every encounter that severely hinder progression or completion unless you can preform at a certain level that is not enforced at ALL while leveling.

Tooltips, stat sheets, and character info are all really vague and don't provide any real information that a player can interact with on a thinking level. For example, how many people know how an ability's tooltip damage is calculated? How many people can tell you what the scaling between Weapon/Spell damage and Stamina/Magicka is per ability? Do the majority of people know that each ability has a unique coefficient to it rather than a general one fits all equation? Not even to mention the fact that finding proper calculations for damage/healing/mitigation is impossible to find in game without use of a damage recording addon and a lot of hardwork and calculations. Sure maybe not everyone cares to the exact decimal point of how much damage they're doing, some people may just wanna whack something till it dies, but there's no sense of learning at the moment with combat at all. You literally either kill something or die, and you have no indication of what's supposed to be happening. When you kill an enemy there's no part you realize at a general level that if you hadn't done X Y and Z, you would have wiped. Beyond that it's even worse when you fail to do something, as the hint recap for more than 90% of content in this game is extremely vague and useless information like "Spending Magicka on abilities increases your defensive capabilities" or "When outnumbered try to even the odds by casting (insert class CC ability here)" even when fighting CC IMMUNE enemies.

Imagine ESO without the players who provide build choices/tips and mathematically intensive calculations. Content like trials would still be a struggle to clear, and new content would take ages to clear since no one would have a clue on what to do. Don't scorn cookie cutter builds, scorn Zenimax for making that a player's only reliable option to preform even remotely well.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I'd rather see cookie cutter builds than the stuff that makes it to the Battle Master's Corner... At least players can get a sense of why certain skills are utilized in almost all end game builds as they can begin noticing patterns of what stats are important for what, rather than just throwing together a bunch of miss matched garbage that has trouble clearing things 10 levels below them.

I don't think people who go to cookie cutter builds are looking for a "win all" button where they recieve instant gratification, but rather to get an idea of what the end game consists of. I can't even say ZoS does a poor job of teaching players how to play the game on any level, because they literally don't have anything in game implemented on how to play other than basic controls and reactions (dodge/block/etc). When a new player comes into ESO they are bombarded with a ton of information that can easily be ignored until level cap content. The state of questing and most non grouped content is all so easily answered by numbers or a few attempts rather than progressive learning in character control/development.

Right now the game lacks and explanation of mechanics such as weaving, importance of ability usage, or technical performance (block casting, usage of the Priority System, etc). You can level from 1-50 and v1-v16 by light attacking things to death or pressing a button five times in a row. Then you get to end game with content like vMA, WGT/ICP, or trials and all of a sudden it feels like the game is the opposite of what you leveled up with. There are DPS/Heal/Tank checks in every encounter that severely hinder progression or completion unless you can preform at a certain level that is not enforced at ALL while leveling.

Tooltips, stat sheets, and character info are all really vague and don't provide any real information that a player can interact with on a thinking level. For example, how many people know how an ability's tooltip damage is calculated? How many people can tell you what the scaling between Weapon/Spell damage and Stamina/Magicka is per ability? Do the majority of people know that each ability has a unique coefficient to it rather than a general one fits all equation? Not even to mention the fact that finding proper calculations for damage/healing/mitigation is impossible to find in game without use of a damage recording addon and a lot of hardwork and calculations. Sure maybe not everyone cares to the exact decimal point of how much damage they're doing, some people may just wanna whack something till it dies, but there's no sense of learning at the moment with combat at all. You literally either kill something or die, and you have no indication of what's supposed to be happening. When you kill an enemy there's no part you realize at a general level that if you hadn't done X Y and Z, you would have wiped. Beyond that it's even worse when you fail to do something, as the hint recap for more than 90% of content in this game is extremely vague and useless information like "Spending Magicka on abilities increases your defensive capabilities" or "When outnumbered try to even the odds by casting (insert class CC ability here)" even when fighting CC IMMUNE enemies.

Imagine ESO without the players who provide build choices/tips and mathematically intensive calculations. Content like trials would still be a struggle to clear, and new content would take ages to clear since no one would have a clue on what to do. Don't scorn cookie cutter builds, scorn Zenimax for making that a player's only reliable option to preform even remotely well.

I agree with this. Lets say a new player just finished the main story and hit VR1 and wants to try out PvP for the first time. They die over and over again. Some of that is L2P and some of that is a bad build, but how would they know? There's no shame in them copying a good build while they L2P. At some point though, they should try out their own tweaks or builds. ZOS can encourage this through better class balance and gear sets that encourage a wider variety of builds (eg, provide jewelry for every gear set in the game, not just certain ones).

KundaliniHero

Who cares if people use other peoples builds?
Is this supposed to be a public service announcement?

I think everyone kinda understands by now that its not the build but the player that defines the outcome of engagements. And im sorry but ESO isnt all that complex when it comes to build diversity, as there are fundamental skills that your going to need to have in PVP regardless or your just going to get murdered over and over again period. If taking the advice of elite players makes you a better player all around then kudos to you my friend.

Everyone tries to act like an "i win" button is beneath them but lets be brutally honest here thats all BS. Personally I dont see a difference between someone who complains about cookie cutter builds and someone who whines nerf, its just the same 'ol *** and moan. If you put the same effort into playing that you do into the forums you might actually get somewhere, copy paste that.

Minno

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I'd rather see cookie cutter builds than the stuff that makes it to the Battle Master's Corner... At least players can get a sense of why certain skills are utilized in almost all end game builds as they can begin noticing patterns of what stats are important for what, rather than just throwing together a bunch of miss matched garbage that has trouble clearing things 10 levels below them.

I don't think people who go to cookie cutter builds are looking for a "win all" button where they recieve instant gratification, but rather to get an idea of what the end game consists of. I can't even say ZoS does a poor job of teaching players how to play the game on any level, because they literally don't have anything in game implemented on how to play other than basic controls and reactions (dodge/block/etc). When a new player comes into ESO they are bombarded with a ton of information that can easily be ignored until level cap content. The state of questing and most non grouped content is all so easily answered by numbers or a few attempts rather than progressive learning in character control/development.

Right now the game lacks and explanation of mechanics such as weaving, importance of ability usage, or technical performance (block casting, usage of the Priority System, etc). You can level from 1-50 and v1-v16 by light attacking things to death or pressing a button five times in a row. Then you get to end game with content like vMA, WGT/ICP, or trials and all of a sudden it feels like the game is the opposite of what you leveled up with. There are DPS/Heal/Tank checks in every encounter that severely hinder progression or completion unless you can preform at a certain level that is not enforced at ALL while leveling.

Tooltips, stat sheets, and character info are all really vague and don't provide any real information that a player can interact with on a thinking level. For example, how many people know how an ability's tooltip damage is calculated? How many people can tell you what the scaling between Weapon/Spell damage and Stamina/Magicka is per ability? Do the majority of people know that each ability has a unique coefficient to it rather than a general one fits all equation? Not even to mention the fact that finding proper calculations for damage/healing/mitigation is impossible to find in game without use of a damage recording addon and a lot of hardwork and calculations. Sure maybe not everyone cares to the exact decimal point of how much damage they're doing, some people may just wanna whack something till it dies, but there's no sense of learning at the moment with combat at all. You literally either kill something or die, and you have no indication of what's supposed to be happening. When you kill an enemy there's no part you realize at a general level that if you hadn't done X Y and Z, you would have wiped. Beyond that it's even worse when you fail to do something, as the hint recap for more than 90% of content in this game is extremely vague and useless information like "Spending Magicka on abilities increases your defensive capabilities" or "When outnumbered try to even the odds by casting (insert class CC ability here)" even when fighting CC IMMUNE enemies.

Imagine ESO without the players who provide build choices/tips and mathematically intensive calculations. Content like trials would still be a struggle to clear, and new content would take ages to clear since no one would have a clue on what to do. Don't scorn cookie cutter builds, scorn Zenimax for making that a player's only reliable option to preform even remotely well.

The greatest comment right here. Untill ZOS provides an easier way to figure out how the game plays, a majority of players rely on celeb players and their builds as a starting point.

CatchMeTrolling

Lol just about every player runs the same build though and wears the same gear. And usually play nb or Sorc.....

vamp_emily

I'm not a cookie cutter!!!

I'm a spammer
I'm a spammer
I'm a spammer

Hits you with a spamming WB!

WillhelmBlack

It wouldn't matter anyway, I'd still be crap.

Master_Kas

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Who cares if people use other peoples builds?
Is this supposed to be a public service announcement?

I think everyone kinda understands by now that its not the build but the player that defines the outcome of engagements. And im sorry but ESO isnt all that complex when it comes to build diversity, as there are fundamental skills that your going to need to have in PVP regardless or your just going to get murdered over and over again period. If taking the advice of elite players makes you a better player all around then kudos to you my friend.

Everyone tries to act like an "i win" button is beneath them but lets be brutally honest here thats all BS. Personally I dont see a difference between someone who complains about cookie cutter builds and someone who whines nerf, its just the same 'ol *** and moan. If you put the same effort into playing that you do into the forums you might actually get somewhere, copy paste that.

The bolded part. There's a reason most people run similar builds, there is basiclly no "unique" build left in ESO (except some weak hybrid builds or stuff like that). The reason why I always just /facepalm when someone says "oh you use his/hers build?" . Gtfo xD

CavalierPrime

But if youre intelligent, your personal build will naturally look similar to the cookie cutter builds. I look to youtube for ideas, and then I modify them to suit my tastes. I hadn't really seen any destro staff builds running Destructive Reach, but I enjoyed strafing a zerg and spamming DR, and making all their players bounce like popcorn. But lo and behold, then I saw Alcast using it liberally on his Frost DK build video.

anitajoneb17_ESO

So much everything @Gilliamtherogue said. I know this thread is in the PvP section but the same applies to PvE.

I copy/paste other people's builds for plenty of reasons, which could be classified as :

- Opacity : tooltips are not clear, no explanations, no tutorials, inaccuracy, many cases of immunity where abilities don't work as they're supposed to. Many abilities do several things at once, sometimes abilities do the same, sometimes it stacks, sometimes it doesn't. Unless you're an avid reader of forums, patchnotes and theorycrafting sites, there's no way you can know by common sense / normal understanding how things work.

- No target dummies to test (and no mobs that would last long enough to test reliably).

- Material costs / RNG. Stuff is too hard to get nowadays : you don't want to "waste" time, gold or mats on a set "just for testing purposes".

- Other players : aside from your close friends in the game, people in groups will EXPECT you to wear FOTM stuff and use FOTM rotation. They don't even know why themselves but that's how it has to be, end of story. And you MUST pull 18K+ DPS other wise you're a noob (even if you can do the dungeon just as smoothly with 13K DPS).

- No variety in available sets. Even if I did the theorycrafting myself, provided I do it correctly, I would end up with the same builds as the FOTM ones that other people have already come up with.

Cathexis

Master_Kas wrote: »

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Who cares if people use other peoples builds?
Is this supposed to be a public service announcement?

I think everyone kinda understands by now that its not the build but the player that defines the outcome of engagements. And im sorry but ESO isnt all that complex when it comes to build diversity, as there are fundamental skills that your going to need to have in PVP regardless or your just going to get murdered over and over again period. If taking the advice of elite players makes you a better player all around then kudos to you my friend.

Everyone tries to act like an "i win" button is beneath them but lets be brutally honest here thats all BS. Personally I dont see a difference between someone who complains about cookie cutter builds and someone who whines nerf, its just the same 'ol *** and moan. If you put the same effort into playing that you do into the forums you might actually get somewhere, copy paste that.

The bolded part. There's a reason most people run similar builds, there is basiclly no "unique" build left in ESO (except some weak hybrid builds or stuff like that). The reason why I always just /facepalm when someone says "oh you use his/hers build?" . Gtfo xD

You are utterly and completely wrong. There is so much build diversity and potential but you can't see it anymore because everyone runs a god damn M/M meta cookie cutter.

I mean god damn I run an Orc Sorc Stamina Tank Werewolf and I wreck people. You don't need to be a cookie cutter for success just play well.

AfkNinja

Cathexis wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Who cares if people use other peoples builds?
Is this supposed to be a public service announcement?

I think everyone kinda understands by now that its not the build but the player that defines the outcome of engagements. And im sorry but ESO isnt all that complex when it comes to build diversity, as there are fundamental skills that your going to need to have in PVP regardless or your just going to get murdered over and over again period. If taking the advice of elite players makes you a better player all around then kudos to you my friend.

Everyone tries to act like an "i win" button is beneath them but lets be brutally honest here thats all BS. Personally I dont see a difference between someone who complains about cookie cutter builds and someone who whines nerf, its just the same 'ol *** and moan. If you put the same effort into playing that you do into the forums you might actually get somewhere, copy paste that.

The bolded part. There's a reason most people run similar builds, there is basiclly no "unique" build left in ESO (except some weak hybrid builds or stuff like that). The reason why I always just /facepalm when someone says "oh you use his/hers build?" . Gtfo xD

You are utterly and completely wrong. There is so much build diversity and potential but you can't see it anymore because everyone runs a god damn M/M meta cookie cutter.

I mean god damn I run an Orc Sorc Stamina Tank Werewolf and I wreck people. You don't need to be a cookie cutter for success just play well.

You don't need a cookie cutter build to be successful but any build that is built properly is going to look very similar to those builds cause each class has a limited number of truly viable skills. Also every successful build needs a few of the same things such as defensive utility, dps spam move, execute, dps buffs, a strong CC/AOE CC etc. Also there are only a few viable sets at v16 so naturally we all gravitate to the ones with the most dmg.

Cathexis

AfkNinja wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Who cares if people use other peoples builds?
Is this supposed to be a public service announcement?

I think everyone kinda understands by now that its not the build but the player that defines the outcome of engagements. And im sorry but ESO isnt all that complex when it comes to build diversity, as there are fundamental skills that your going to need to have in PVP regardless or your just going to get murdered over and over again period. If taking the advice of elite players makes you a better player all around then kudos to you my friend.

Everyone tries to act like an "i win" button is beneath them but lets be brutally honest here thats all BS. Personally I dont see a difference between someone who complains about cookie cutter builds and someone who whines nerf, its just the same 'ol *** and moan. If you put the same effort into playing that you do into the forums you might actually get somewhere, copy paste that.

The bolded part. There's a reason most people run similar builds, there is basiclly no "unique" build left in ESO (except some weak hybrid builds or stuff like that). The reason why I always just /facepalm when someone says "oh you use his/hers build?" . Gtfo xD

You are utterly and completely wrong. There is so much build diversity and potential but you can't see it anymore because everyone runs a god damn M/M meta cookie cutter.

I mean god damn I run an Orc Sorc Stamina Tank Werewolf and I wreck people. You don't need to be a cookie cutter for success just play well.

You don't need a cookie cutter build to be successful but any build that is built properly is going to look very similar to those builds cause each class has a limited number of truly viable skills. Also every successful build needs a few of the same things such as defensive utility, dps spam move, execute, dps buffs, a strong CC/AOE CC etc. Also there are only a few viable sets at v16 so naturally we all gravitate to the ones with the most dmg.

The first idea contradicts itself and the third idea is false for the same reason - player skill differences make players select different abilities and sets based on their playstyle, role, strengths, and weaknesses. A player who is strong offensively but vulnerable defensively will select more defensive attributes because they logically offer more valuable enhancements, point for point. I myself run a tank build so I don't naturally gravitate to damage. Some players for example prefer endurance so they will gravitate more to resource regen. Racial passives also augment players in different ways making some abilities more valuable then others.

Its just not true that there is no room for build diversity.

dodgehopper_ESO

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

chuckselegy wrote: »

Guys/gals, it's almost unbearable with all the "what's his build" (Erkel tone) going on.
Come on! Just read the tool tips and make YOUR decision. If you get a skill and it isn't what you want well, as you level and collect skyshards then you can buy other skills. And if you get all the way to v16 and don't have a clue as to how you want to run your build, I don't know what to tell you. Unless you're grinding, with which you probably have a clue how this game works and you're probably a pvp'er, you're gonna have enough experience playing you'll learn what works.
Its that simple, read the tool tips and play your character. And experiment!

Don't be afraid to make a mistake.
For those of you that say well, I wanna min/max, get to end game quick, have an OP build like this guy or that, I wanna be competitive. You will be...if you build your character and learn how to actually play it instead of copy and pasting the newest spambush or shield stacking toon. Hell, with all your experimenting you may end up discovering a really OP build of your own or you may end up at the same thing a JackDaniels, Blabafat, Sypher, Kingrichard, Fengrush, or Lefty Lucy is running.

Just play the game folks!

Sithis yes, love all of this but we both know that this will not resonate with the people that copy paste builds.

Trail and error is how I can melt face with just 2.8k fully buffed weapon damage.
Independent thinking is not for everyone.
Nevermind that the person that made the build don't think like you. Will not react the same way as you would.

My build works wonders on my Argonian had two different guildies run it on min/max races and failed bad simply cause we don't respond the same way. They had much better stats and it didn't work out cause of how I see things.

There is a big difference in knowing how to do something and actually doing something. I think for a lot of people they are so into the numbers and statistics that they can't actually play the game. There needs to be a practical balance. Experienced players have that practical balance. You can put an experienced player in sub-par green gear and have them outperform someone with gold set gear. Optimization only enhances skill.

That being said I totally understand people wanting to 'stand on giants' and read about how things work so they can cut down their learning time. Part of why I read forums is to listen to other perspectives. Usually it just confirms what I already know, but occasionally you learn about a ninja patch or bug by reading what others know about.

PosternHouse

So many special snow flakes in this thread. People will tend to use what works best regardless of how "original" and "unique" it is. If you aren't one of those people then have fun being non-optimized and don't knock other people for wanting to perform optimally.

Cathexis

PosternHouse wrote: »

So many special snow flakes in this thread. People will tend to use what works best regardless of how "original" and "unique" it is. If you aren't one of those people then have fun being non-optimized and don't knock other people for wanting to perform optimally.

The argument though is that optimal performance is not as limited in scope as a select few cookie cutter builds as people believe it is.

Fundamentally though you do have to learn about the game through a number of sources, not just the game itself.

KundaliniHero

Cathexis wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Who cares if people use other peoples builds?
Is this supposed to be a public service announcement?

I think everyone kinda understands by now that its not the build but the player that defines the outcome of engagements. And im sorry but ESO isnt all that complex when it comes to build diversity, as there are fundamental skills that your going to need to have in PVP regardless or your just going to get murdered over and over again period. If taking the advice of elite players makes you a better player all around then kudos to you my friend.

Everyone tries to act like an "i win" button is beneath them but lets be brutally honest here thats all BS. Personally I dont see a difference between someone who complains about cookie cutter builds and someone who whines nerf, its just the same 'ol *** and moan. If you put the same effort into playing that you do into the forums you might actually get somewhere, copy paste that.

The bolded part. There's a reason most people run similar builds, there is basiclly no "unique" build left in ESO (except some weak hybrid builds or stuff like that). The reason why I always just /facepalm when someone says "oh you use his/hers build?" . Gtfo xD

You are utterly and completely wrong. There is so much build diversity and potential but you can't see it anymore because everyone runs a god damn M/M meta cookie cutter.

I mean god damn I run an Orc Sorc Stamina Tank Werewolf and I wreck people. You don't need to be a cookie cutter for success just play well.

You don't need a cookie cutter build to be successful but any build that is built properly is going to look very similar to those builds cause each class has a limited number of truly viable skills. Also every successful build needs a few of the same things such as defensive utility, dps spam move, execute, dps buffs, a strong CC/AOE CC etc. Also there are only a few viable sets at v16 so naturally we all gravitate to the ones with the most dmg.

The first idea contradicts itself and the third idea is false for the same reason - player skill differences make players select different abilities and sets based on their playstyle, role, strengths, and weaknesses. A player who is strong offensively but vulnerable defensively will select more defensive attributes because they logically offer more valuable enhancements, point for point. I myself run a tank build so I don't naturally gravitate to damage. Some players for example prefer endurance so they will gravitate more to resource regen. Racial passives also augment players in different ways making some abilities more valuable then others.

Its just not true that there is no room for build diversity.

There is diversity: but very little if you would like to stay viable in an especially competitive environment. Just slapping on werewolf to the backend of your build doesnt make you Thomas Edison, its actually pretty cookie cutter unto itself. But none of this really matters, diversity is absolutely meaningless and not the point of this discussion.

You can give two players the same cookie cutter build and the skilled player will always out perform the other; Thats because you cant learn proper timing and reactionary strategy on some forum somewhere, its only learned through experience from actually PVPing. So let the cookie cutters bake their builds its no skin off my ego.

PosternHouse

Cathexis wrote: »

PosternHouse wrote: »

So many special snow flakes in this thread. People will tend to use what works best regardless of how "original" and "unique" it is. If you aren't one of those people then have fun being non-optimized and don't knock other people for wanting to perform optimally.

The argument though is that optimal performance is not as limited in scope as a select few cookie cutter builds as people believe it is.

Fundamentally though you do have to learn about the game through a number of sources, not just the game itself.

Ideally there are many ways to achieve similar results. Realistically, there are usually very few builds that are optical. People will trend towards those by trial-and-error or plain old observation of other people using a good build to good effect. People throw out terms like "cookie cutter" to make what other people are doing seem unoriginal and bad, while what they are doing is special and good. It's silly posturing that happens a lot.

Jahosefat

Cathexis wrote: »

You are utterly and completely wrong. There is so much build diversity and potential but you can't see it anymore because everyone runs a god damn M/M meta cookie cutter.

I mean god damn I run an Orc Sorc Stamina Tank Werewolf and I wreck people. You don't need to be a cookie cutter for success just play well.

If you have played other games before this shouldn't surprise you. I came back to the game recently and putz around with almost every mag-based ability in the game over the last couple weeks. Was really trying to come up with something resembling the build I loved in 1.5; some were ok, but running up against any halfway decent player with a solo build (WB primarily) would just *** on my parade. I was trying to avoid the infamous "shield stack", but with ~150 CP and 7/7 lvl 15 light armor I'm just WB bait. So now on my resto bar I've got hardened/harness/healing bubbles with streak + 1 utility. And: overload is crazy strong, wall of elements still blows, frags/curse = life (I tried without), impulse is cool (will swap in and out to get that sweet group wipe ap), barrier=hand of god, and a well timed mag det is awesome. So yep, came full circle and am going to use probably what everyone else is using. There is a reason certain builds become popular, they are simply good combinations of skills and through experimentation people tend to converge on the strong ones (if I really wanted to go FOTM I'd grab a 2h axe, grind up 360 CP, and go slugging with WB).

It's not laziness if it gets the job done; that's called efficiency. Some call it standing on the shoulders of giants; some "the path of least resistance". I call it "getting your build online". Scientists do this everyday! One day in the library can save you a month in the lab (Cyrodiil )

Lexxypwns

Nerf cookies, then people wouldn't need to play cookie cutter builds

Crown

It's also a lot more fun fighting people who have a chance to win - rather than just peeling potatoes for AP.

For those new to PvP or who want gear suggestions, go to https://darkelves.com and read the section on Build & Gear Suggestions. Then click the link in the Defence section for crit vs. impenetrable calculations.

Jade1986

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I'd rather see cookie cutter builds than the stuff that makes it to the Battle Master's Corner... At least players can get a sense of why certain skills are utilized in almost all end game builds as they can begin noticing patterns of what stats are important for what, rather than just throwing together a bunch of miss matched garbage that has trouble clearing things 10 levels below them.

I don't think people who go to cookie cutter builds are looking for a "win all" button where they recieve instant gratification, but rather to get an idea of what the end game consists of. I can't even say ZoS does a poor job of teaching players how to play the game on any level, because they literally don't have anything in game implemented on how to play other than basic controls and reactions (dodge/block/etc). When a new player comes into ESO they are bombarded with a ton of information that can easily be ignored until level cap content. The state of questing and most non grouped content is all so easily answered by numbers or a few attempts rather than progressive learning in character control/development.

Right now the game lacks and explanation of mechanics such as weaving, importance of ability usage, or technical performance (block casting, usage of the Priority System, etc). You can level from 1-50 and v1-v16 by light attacking things to death or pressing a button five times in a row. Then you get to end game with content like vMA, WGT/ICP, or trials and all of a sudden it feels like the game is the opposite of what you leveled up with. There are DPS/Heal/Tank checks in every encounter that severely hinder progression or completion unless you can preform at a certain level that is not enforced at ALL while leveling.

Tooltips, stat sheets, and character info are all really vague and don't provide any real information that a player can interact with on a thinking level. For example, how many people know how an ability's tooltip damage is calculated? How many people can tell you what the scaling between Weapon/Spell damage and Stamina/Magicka is per ability? Do the majority of people know that each ability has a unique coefficient to it rather than a general one fits all equation? Not even to mention the fact that finding proper calculations for damage/healing/mitigation is impossible to find in game without use of a damage recording addon and a lot of hardwork and calculations. Sure maybe not everyone cares to the exact decimal point of how much damage they're doing, some people may just wanna whack something till it dies, but there's no sense of learning at the moment with combat at all. You literally either kill something or die, and you have no indication of what's supposed to be happening. When you kill an enemy there's no part you realize at a general level that if you hadn't done X Y and Z, you would have wiped. Beyond that it's even worse when you fail to do something, as the hint recap for more than 90% of content in this game is extremely vague and useless information like "Spending Magicka on abilities increases your defensive capabilities" or "When outnumbered try to even the odds by casting (insert class CC ability here)" even when fighting CC IMMUNE enemies.

Imagine ESO without the players who provide build choices/tips and mathematically intensive calculations. Content like trials would still be a struggle to clear, and new content would take ages to clear since no one would have a clue on what to do. Don't scorn cookie cutter builds, scorn Zenimax for making that a player's only reliable option to preform even remotely well.

Did you really just say that FOTM players dont want an easy mode class? Of course they do, that is why they re roll FOTM classes. Its sad to be honest.