Should Templar healing passives effect non magic heals?

AfkNinja

Stamina Templar has some issues currently, lets discuss them!

So anyone who has played a Stamina Templar has likely experienced frustration that none of our passives work on our heals and we have no stamina heal. This means Templar's are the worst stamina class at healing and this seems odd to me. Please discuss some revisions or changes we can make to Templar that ZOS might consider.

Tankqull

focused healing worked on all heals up to 1.4 but then someone at ZOS thought it would be better to only affect restoring light spells...

Minno

Change Honor the Dead to a Stamina HOT

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

AfkNinja

Yes

Minno wrote: »

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

I wouldn't say we "rule" the Stamina DPS, Biting Jabs CAN BE the hardest hitting single target skill in PVP but requires you to hit all four attacks and proc burning light at least once. That hardly justifies us being in last place for healing when our whole class design is about healing...

ToRelax

Yes

Minno wrote: »

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

If healing others makes little sense for a stamina build, than the problem is the design of Vigor as the only stamina based group heal. A stamina Templar should still get something from his passives. It would be pretty simple to change the Focused Healing Passive so that it grants major mending. There's really no reason against it.

Minno

Change Honor the Dead to a Stamina HOT

AfkNinja wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

I wouldn't say we "rule" the Stamina DPS, Biting Jabs CAN BE the hardest hitting single target skill in PVP but requires you to hit all four attacks and proc burning light at least once. That hardly justifies us being in last place for healing when our whole class design is about healing...

Just playing devil's advocate here.

If I as a magicka Templar have subpar dps and no mobility, then it makes sense for me to have better tanking and better healing. If I roll stam to achieve dps, there should be some tradeoff. Especially since a better stam pool with higher regen equals a better escape (rapids and or sprints.)

Stam users have access to heals (vigor and rally.) And now ZOS fixed the issue where those skills were improperly scalling off of spell crit. So on paper, you should be able to utilize templars crit dmg passive with CPs to obtain higher heals (using weapon crit).

Hiero_Glyph

Change Healing Ritual to a Stamina Heal

I agree that stamina Templars should be able to heal better (well, more consistently since Stam Sorcs have insane burst heals) than other Stamina classes. That being said I think that letting the passives effect all stamina heals would be broken since they are already pretty strong. As a result I think there should be a stamina morph for a busrt heal in the Restoring Light tree (other than Repentance).

Honor the Dead was just redone so I don't want to see this changed but I could see an argument being made for Healing Ritual since it already has a huge drawback with its 2s cast time. The only other change that might be required is to have it heal either only the caster or use smart healing to target the lowest health ally within 5m (so it could be used to heal others but wouldn't auto-target allies across the room). I think the cast time combined with the limited range might be enough to keep this balanced as a stamina heal, and you could always buff it using Restoring Light passives and/or Restoring Focus.

ToRelax

Yes

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

I agree that stamina Templars should be able to heal better (well, more consistently since Stam Sorcs have insane burst heals) than other Stamina classes. That being said I think that letting the passives effect all stamina heals would be broken since they are already pretty strong. As a result I think there should be a stamina morph for a busrt heal in the Restoring Light tree (other than Repentance).

Honor the Dead was just redone so I don't want to see this changed but I could see an argument being made for Healing Ritual since it already has a huge drawback with its 2s cast time. The only other change that might be required is to have it heal either only the caster or use smart healing to target the lowest health ally within 5m (so it could be used to heal others but wouldn't auto-target allies across the room). I think the cast time combined with the limited range might be enough to keep this balanced as a stamina heal, and you could always buff it using Restoring Light passives and/or Restoring Focus.

Why do you think letting the passives effect stamina heals would be broken? The DK's Igenous Shield does the same, and even though DK's also get more mitigation, more heals (Battle Roar) and a bonus in healing received, I wouldn't call stamina DK's OP at all. They can be pretty survivable, but there's nothing wrong in that.

Springt-Über-Zwerge

Yes

They should not only work with stamina but with every other heal in the game

Hiero_Glyph

Change Healing Ritual to a Stamina Heal

ToRelax wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

I agree that stamina Templars should be able to heal better (well, more consistently since Stam Sorcs have insane burst heals) than other Stamina classes. That being said I think that letting the passives effect all stamina heals would be broken since they are already pretty strong. As a result I think there should be a stamina morph for a busrt heal in the Restoring Light tree (other than Repentance).

Honor the Dead was just redone so I don't want to see this changed but I could see an argument being made for Healing Ritual since it already has a huge drawback with its 2s cast time. The only other change that might be required is to have it heal either only the caster or use smart healing to target the lowest health ally within 5m (so it could be used to heal others but wouldn't auto-target allies across the room). I think the cast time combined with the limited range might be enough to keep this balanced as a stamina heal, and you could always buff it using Restoring Light passives and/or Restoring Focus.

Why do you think letting the passives effect stamina heals would be broken? The DK's Igenous Shield does the same, and even though DK's also get more mitigation, more heals (Battle Roar) and a bonus in healing received, I wouldn't call stamina DK's OP at all. They can be pretty survivable, but there's nothing wrong in that.

Fair enough but what happens if you combine Mending and Focussed Healing with Restoring Focus and Vigor/Rally? I'm not sure how the math stacks but that is close to +40-50%. Does the DK come anywhere close to this? I mean Restoring Focus already works with stamina heals and no one uses it so really it comes down to Focussed Healing. Still, I guess if ZOS is giving these bonuses to the DK then they should also give them to the Templar, I just don't want to see another Templar nerf as a result (because ZOS).

Regardless, I still think Templars should have another stamina heal from the Restoring Light tree.

eliisra

Yes

Need a passive or skill giving Major Vitality 30% healing taken. That's what I think.

The restrictions to Focused Healing is there to make sure that non-templars are comparable group healers with resto or class skills. It's understandable, even if sadly screws up stamplar(already struggling with survivability and pretty much everything else).

But Major Vitality as a self-buff, that wouldn't make magicka templars better group healers. Just help templar tanks and of course stamplars boost their Rally or Vigor some. Maybe change Restoring Focus to give Major Vitality upon activation for 15 seconds. Healers would use the other morph anyway.

AfkNinja

Yes

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

I agree that stamina Templars should be able to heal better (well, more consistently since Stam Sorcs have insane burst heals) than other Stamina classes. That being said I think that letting the passives effect all stamina heals would be broken since they are already pretty strong. As a result I think there should be a stamina morph for a busrt heal in the Restoring Light tree (other than Repentance).

Honor the Dead was just redone so I don't want to see this changed but I could see an argument being made for Healing Ritual since it already has a huge drawback with its 2s cast time. The only other change that might be required is to have it heal either only the caster or use smart healing to target the lowest health ally within 5m (so it could be used to heal others but wouldn't auto-target allies across the room). I think the cast time combined with the limited range might be enough to keep this balanced as a stamina heal, and you could always buff it using Restoring Light passives and/or Restoring Focus.

Why do you think letting the passives effect stamina heals would be broken? The DK's Igenous Shield does the same, and even though DK's also get more mitigation, more heals (Battle Roar) and a bonus in healing received, I wouldn't call stamina DK's OP at all. They can be pretty survivable, but there's nothing wrong in that.

Fair enough but what happens if you combine Mending and Focussed Healing with Restoring Focus and Vigor/Rally? I'm not sure how the math stacks but that is close to +40-50%. Does the DK come anywhere close to this? I mean Restoring Focus already works with stamina heals and no one uses it so really it comes down to Focussed Healing. Still, I guess if ZOS is giving these bonuses to the DK then they should also give them to the Templar, I just don't want to see another Templar nerf as a result (because ZOS).

Regardless, I still think Templars should have another stamina heal from the Restoring Light tree.

DK has 12%+ healing from Burning Heart passive, +30% healing from igneous shield and +8% from Coagulated Blood for +50% healing exactly compared to 0 +healing effects for Templar on stamina heals and +40% on Restoring Light heals when at low hp. All of those passives for DK work on ALL HEALS, resto heals/stamina heals/class heals.

Edit: Forgot Restoring focus for +8% healing. (Not worth it imo, Channeled Focus is too good.)

danno8

They could make it so it provides a smaller bonus to non-Restoring Light skills. Mending can be 5% instead of 10%, Focussed healing could be 15% instead of 30%.

(numbers may be off, I'm don't have the game running atm)

edit: actually think Mending should just work on all heals. 10% at low health could hardly be considered too strong.

SemiD4rkness

Yes

You all people act like stam templars are in need of small tweaks when in reality we need MAJOR buffs...

timidobserver

No

They probably need to redo healing ritual entirely into some kind of HoT and one morph of it needs to be stamina.
Additionally, I would make channeled focus also restore stamina.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Other: Explain below

As far as I remember it also doesn't work on magic heals other than breath of life, cleansing ritual, remembrance and healing ritual. So asking for it to work on non magic heals doesn't make sense to me. Either leave it as it is or change it so it works on all heals.

Mumyo

Yes

Minno wrote: »

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

Wrong. Dk does.

Docmandu

AfkNinja wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

I wouldn't say we "rule" the Stamina DPS, Biting Jabs CAN BE the hardest hitting single target skill in PVP but requires you to hit all four attacks and proc burning light at least once. That hardly justifies us being in last place for healing when our whole class design is about healing...

versus a non-shielded target.. else no crits for you... so basically 98% of the population

zornyan

Docmandu wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maybe this option. But overall stam templars rule the dps for stam builds.
If healing, please join magicka ranks.

I wouldn't say we "rule" the Stamina DPS, Biting Jabs CAN BE the hardest hitting single target skill in PVP but requires you to hit all four attacks and proc burning light at least once. That hardly justifies us being in last place for healing when our whole class design is about healing...

versus a non-shielded target.. else no crits for you... so basically 98% of the population

Not just no crits.

But no 140% damage buff.

Turn that 5k jab in 1k! Woop

Solariken

Other: Explain below

Honestly, I think ZOS should tone down all stamina heals. I personally think stamina DPS should be significantly higher overall than magic DPS. Stamina builds should allow players to build for damage output at the expense of self-healing. This would also return some value to true healing builds and make running with a healer more necessary than it is now.

josh.lackey_ESO

eliisra wrote: »

Need a passive or skill giving Major Vitality 30% healing taken. That's what I think.

1) Change the Focused Healing passive to grant Minor Mending at one point and Major Mending at two points. It's currently an untyped 15%/30% buff that affects only Restoring Light spells. Changing it to Mending not only helps stamina templars using Vigor, but it gives resto staff some utility for templars, too. I'd rather run with Grand Healing + Purge (or even Mutagen) instead of Cleansing Ritual. But the way Focused Healing works, I need to run into the fray, drop Cleansing Ritual, and spam BoL for burst healing.

I really like the idea of getting Major Mending when I drop Rune Focus. I currently just run Immovable for (ironically) mobility because with Rune Focus, you have to just stand in it or re-cast it all the time. If it gave me Major Mending from the Focused Healing passive, I might switch back to Rune Focus. It would be a tough choice.

You already get Minor Vitality from morphed Rune Focus. I think having Major Mending is more advantageous than Major Vitality. The only way you might lose on overall healing with Mending instead of Vitality is if you are running in a small group with only a Sorcerer healer. Arguably, Sorcs are the worst healers in the game so it's whatever. (A Dragonknight healer gets Major Mending from Igneous Shield. Nightblades have their own unique way of healing. Other templars, even stamina templars with just Vigor, will be healing you for more due to the Major Mending.)

2) Change the morphs of Healing Ritual to make it actually useful. It's really a great heal on paper, but it's not used much. You can't usually wait 2 seconds to heal burst damage, and you will almost inevitably be interrupted. The current morphs are extremely underwhelming. .3 seconds less cast time or a dinky heal in 8 seconds. Here's some ideas off the top of my head:

Lingering Ritual: Moderately stamina cost. Instant cast time, 10 meter radius. Moderate AoE initial heal with a smaller heal-over-time that grants Minor Resolve and Minor Ward for 12 seconds.

Ritual of Rebirth: High magicka cost. 2 second cast time. Large AoE heal, 12 meter radius. Upon activation (i.e. when the templar starts casting the spell), targets in the area of effect that are below 50% health gain a moderate damage shield for 5 seconds (size affected by Mending passive). If interrupted, the blazing the light of Stendarr is released chaotically, dealing AoE fire damage to the interrupter and his allies.

You give stamina templars some extra healing, add some variety so that templar healers aren't left with just spamming BoL endlessly, and create an interesting mechanic that requires more situational awareness beyond blindly focusing the healer first.

zornyan

Solariken wrote: »

Honestly, I think ZOS should tone down all stamina heals. I personally think stamina DPS should be significantly higher overall than magic DPS. Stamina builds should allow players to build for damage output at the expense of self-healing. This would also return some value to true healing builds and make running with a healer more necessary than it is now.

Stamina heals are already pathetic in comparison to magicka

Stam templar can use vigor for a 11k heal over 5 seconds, Rally isn't reliable as it requires a minimum of 20 seconds or so to get a single burst heal.

In those 5 seconds that the stam user is using vigor, I can cast 5 BoL, for around 16-20k each.

So stam gets 11k after 5 seconds (reduced by 50%)

Magicka gets approx 50-70k (with purifying or channeled focus for 30% buff and mending for 10%)

AfkNinja

Yes

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

Need a passive or skill giving Major Vitality 30% healing taken. That's what I think.

1) Change the Focused Healing passive to grant Minor Mending at one point and Major Mending (Yes, please.)at two points. It's currently an untyped 15%/30% buff that affects only Restoring Light spells. Changing it to Mending not only helps stamina Templar's using Vigor, but it gives resto staff some utility for Templar's, too. I'd rather run with Grand Healing + Purge (or even Mutagen) instead of Cleansing Ritual. But the way Focused Healing works, I need to run into the fray, drop Cleansing Ritual, and spam BoL for burst healing.

I really like the idea of getting Major Mending when I drop Rune Focus. I currently just run Immovable for (ironically) mobility because with Rune Focus, you have to just stand in it or re-cast it all the time. If it gave me Major Mending from the Focused Healing passive, I might switch back to Rune Focus. It would be a tough choice.

You already get Minor Vitality from morphed Rune Focus. I think having Major Mending is more advantageous than Major Vitality. The only way you might lose on overall healing with Mending instead of Vitality is if you are running in a small group with only a Sorcerer healer. Arguably, Sorcs are the worst healers in the game so it's whatever. (A Dragonknight healer gets Major Mending from Igneous Shield. Nightblades have their own unique way of healing. Other templars, even stamina templars with just Vigor, will be healing you for more due to the Major Mending.)

2) Change the morphs of Healing Ritual to make it actually useful. It's really a great heal on paper, but it's not used much. You can't usually wait 2 seconds to heal burst damage, and you will almost inevitably be interrupted. The current morphs are extremely underwhelming. .3 seconds less cast time or a dinky heal in 8 seconds. Here's some ideas off the top of my head:

Lingering Ritual: Moderately stamina cost. Instant cast time, 10 meter radius. Moderate AoE initial heal with a smaller heal-over-time that grants Minor Resolve and Minor Ward for 12 seconds. (Yes, please.)

Ritual of Rebirth: High magicka cost. 2 second cast time. Large AoE heal, 12 meter radius. Upon activation (i.e. when the templar starts casting the spell), targets in the area of effect that are below 50% health gain a moderate damage shield for 5 seconds (size affected by Mending passive). If interrupted, the blazing the light of Stendarr is released chaotically, dealing AoE fire damage to the interrupter and his allies. (I like this idea but doubt ZOS would approve, if we are gonna channel for two seconds give us some kind of effect even when interrupted, take the dmg or let them heal? Hard choice.)

You give stamina templars some extra healing, add some variety so that Templar healers aren't left with just spamming BoL endlessly, and create an interesting mechanic that requires more situational awareness beyond blindly focusing the healer first. (Also bring back blinding flashes maybe at 30% dodge chance, maybe add it to our shield.)

Really great post with some interesting ideas! Thanks for sharing.

dodgehopper_ESO

Yes

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

Need a passive or skill giving Major Vitality 30% healing taken. That's what I think.

1) Change the Focused Healing passive to grant Minor Mending at one point and Major Mending at two points. It's currently an untyped 15%/30% buff that affects only Restoring Light spells. Changing it to Mending not only helps stamina templars using Vigor, but it gives resto staff some utility for templars, too. I'd rather run with Grand Healing + Purge (or even Mutagen) instead of Cleansing Ritual. But the way Focused Healing works, I need to run into the fray, drop Cleansing Ritual, and spam BoL for burst healing.

I really like the idea of getting Major Mending when I drop Rune Focus. I currently just run Immovable for (ironically) mobility because with Rune Focus, you have to just stand in it or re-cast it all the time. If it gave me Major Mending from the Focused Healing passive, I might switch back to Rune Focus. It would be a tough choice.

You already get Minor Vitality from morphed Rune Focus. I think having Major Mending is more advantageous than Major Vitality. The only way you might lose on overall healing with Mending instead of Vitality is if you are running in a small group with only a Sorcerer healer. Arguably, Sorcs are the worst healers in the game so it's whatever. (A Dragonknight healer gets Major Mending from Igneous Shield. Nightblades have their own unique way of healing. Other templars, even stamina templars with just Vigor, will be healing you for more due to the Major Mending.)

2) Change the morphs of Healing Ritual to make it actually useful. It's really a great heal on paper, but it's not used much. You can't usually wait 2 seconds to heal burst damage, and you will almost inevitably be interrupted. The current morphs are extremely underwhelming. .3 seconds less cast time or a dinky heal in 8 seconds. Here's some ideas off the top of my head:

Lingering Ritual: Moderately stamina cost. Instant cast time, 10 meter radius. Moderate AoE initial heal with a smaller heal-over-time that grants Minor Resolve and Minor Ward for 12 seconds.

Ritual of Rebirth: High magicka cost. 2 second cast time. Large AoE heal, 12 meter radius. Upon activation (i.e. when the templar starts casting the spell), targets in the area of effect that are below 50% health gain a moderate damage shield for 5 seconds (size affected by Mending passive). If interrupted, the blazing the light of Stendarr is released chaotically, dealing AoE fire damage to the interrupter and his allies.

You give stamina templars some extra healing, add some variety so that templar healers aren't left with just spamming BoL endlessly, and create an interesting mechanic that requires more situational awareness beyond blindly focusing the healer first.

Definitely interesting ideas. It would definitely be more like Templar use to be, when it had a bonus to healing, and I like your suggestion for the ritual skill. The only tweak I would make would be to have Rune/Cleansing proc major mending off the passive in the restoring light line, essentially making the current passive a little better (because it should be).

It is my actual hope that as templars though we can get beyond being just 'the healer'. Clearly the class was meant to be more than that. The other playstyles need help too. The whole CC element of the class needs a looking over (Jabs, Javelin, Spears, No more aoe cc, Eclipse, toppling). Projectile speeds are pretty bad on the templar for the mag dps build. Power of the Light could be made a lot better than what it currently is (I think if they had just made this skill right they wouldn't have needed radiant destruction).