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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
10 ways how PVP in ESO is not like Dota2
jhharvest
✭✭✭
So I've been thinking about the PVP in ESO. I have also been musing on how it is different from Valve's battler. Here are what I think are the 10 major differences:
1) In Dota2 balance is everything.
It's a competitive game that's played for millions of dollars in prize money, so it's obvious that it has to be balanced on every level. In Dota2 balance comes from small tweaks that come with every patch. There is no sudden '50%' reduction here, but tiny changes that get implemented gradually.
The other key difference is how players are able to track different heroes' performance: there are websites that track the win statistics and builds for every hero from hundreds of thousands games weekly. For example Dotabuff (https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/trends). This way it is trivially easy to point out which heroes are stronger or weaker in the current patch.
Solution for ESO: Release detailed statistics on class and skill performance compared against Cyrodiil rank, character level and K/D ratio.
2) In Dota2 you can pick a new hero every game.
Games in Dota2 last usually between 30 minutes and an hour. Every game you get to pick a new hero. In ESO players have to invest hundreds of hours to fully level up and kit out their character, so picking a new class is much more difficult and time consuming. This exacerbates any issues around class imbalance.
Solution for ESO: Respec shrine for changing class and race.
3) In Dota2 skills can't be spammed.
There are two mitigating factors against spamming skills in Dota2. Firstly the game has cool downs. I understand this is a design decision in ESO to remove this artificial limitation so this is obviously not applicable. The second limiting factor is that in Dota2 mana regen and maximum pool is generally speaking very low: even without a cool down, the average hero could only cast 2-3 spells before running out of resources.
This has the added benefit of making hitting enemy heroes with normal attacks a very valuable asset. Group coordination is very important in Dota2 to bring down the opposing team.
Solution for ESO: Restrict magicka regen. Increase cost for stamina skills.
4) In Dota2 healing is mostly through regen.
There are only a handful of skills that directly heal. The heroes with these skills are therefore highly valued. Even so, the healing skills will hardly ever bring your HP to full. For example the main healing item in the game, Mekanism, heals 250 HP every minute when the average health pool is between 800-2000 HP. Even with this relatively small healing, it can change the course of a battle entirely.
Instead of direct healing spells, HP recovery usually comes from various sources of regeneration and in some cases from life steal. Some heroes have passive abilities that give life steal, but this can also be itemised.
Solution for ESO: Nerf healing? Obviously this would only work if damage levels were much, much lower.
5) In Dota2 Invisibility has strong counters.
Few heroes in Dota2 have built in invisibility / stealth mechanics, but every hero can buy an item that grants temporary invisibility but this requires sacrificing one of your 6 item slots. This balances out the benefits that invisibility can bring. Furthermore, invisibility has strong counters.
One of the main ways to guard against stealth attacks is Sentry Wards. Think of the Alliance war skill Lingering flare. But the key difference between a sentry ward and flare is the duration. A sentry ward reveals invisible units in a relatively large area and lasts 4 minutes. This makes it a useful investment, instead of the utterly feeble Lingering flare. The other common invisibility breaking item is Dust of Appearance, that reveals units in a large radius and prevents them from using invis for 12 seconds, so it's basically Detect Potion.
Solution for ESO: Create an armour set that grants invisibility. Buff Flare considerably.
6) In Dota2 there is no CC break / immunity.
Skills that give stun or incapacitate enemy heroes are very strong in Dota2. There are extremely few skills that give immunity against effects (I believe 2 heroes out of 110?), but every hero can use one of their six item slots to get an item that grants temporary immunity. This emphasises hero positioning during fights, using skills efficiently and in the right order and often just building enough HP on your hero so you can survive being hard CC'd for a short duration.
Solution for ESO: Make CC rarer and make immunity after CC shorter.
7) In Dota2 there are very few instakill gank combos.
Generally speaking a single hero in Dota2 cannot kill another hero, even when attacking them from stealth. There are a few exceptions, but these can be often defended against with the sentry wards that reveal invisible units in the area. Instead the game emphasises team play and there are a few more strong team skill combinations that require good timing to pull off. These team combos can decimate most of the enemy team when executed correctly.
Solution for ESO: Balance max damage values for single characters and skills.
8) Mobility is more equal in Dota2.
Few heroes in Dota2 have built in mobility options, like Sorcerer's Streak in ESO. Furthermore the use of these blink skills is limited by the cool down and smaller resource pools as previously mentioned. But all heroes can buy a mobility item that grants a blink, called Blink Dagger (surprise, surprise!). This gives any hero the ability to perform a short range teleport like Streak. The balancing factor is that it cannot be used if your hero has taken damage within the last 3 seconds, and of course it has a cool down.
Solution for ESO: Balance Streak further, implement an armour set that grants Streak.
9) Dota2 has more counters to strong damage dealing skills and spells.
Dota2 has more status effects than in ESO. Most importantly there is silence, that prevents hero from casting spells, and maim, which prevents a hero from using physical attacks. These can be used to counter particular heroes that have strong spells or very strong weapon damage. Obviously these can't be CC broken either, except with the use of very rare skills or the expensive item that grants temporary magic immunity.
Solution for ESO: Implement silence and maim as effects on some support skills.
10) Dota2 has no Purge.
There is no skill that can remove all status effects from your whole team. Generally speaking skills and items that remove status effects are rare. This ensures that dots, slows, silence etc. do what they're supposed to do, unless the enemy sacrifices a lot to dispel it.
Solution for ESO: Remove Purge (and possibly change some class skills as well).
Okay, that was long. Anyway, these were some of my musings on the differences of Dota2 (a competitive high-stakes PVP game) and ESO. Would these changes make ESO a better PVP game? Dunno. Probably not on their own.
1) In Dota2 balance is everything.
It's a competitive game that's played for millions of dollars in prize money, so it's obvious that it has to be balanced on every level. In Dota2 balance comes from small tweaks that come with every patch. There is no sudden '50%' reduction here, but tiny changes that get implemented gradually.
The other key difference is how players are able to track different heroes' performance: there are websites that track the win statistics and builds for every hero from hundreds of thousands games weekly. For example Dotabuff (https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/trends). This way it is trivially easy to point out which heroes are stronger or weaker in the current patch.
Solution for ESO: Release detailed statistics on class and skill performance compared against Cyrodiil rank, character level and K/D ratio.
2) In Dota2 you can pick a new hero every game.
Games in Dota2 last usually between 30 minutes and an hour. Every game you get to pick a new hero. In ESO players have to invest hundreds of hours to fully level up and kit out their character, so picking a new class is much more difficult and time consuming. This exacerbates any issues around class imbalance.
Solution for ESO: Respec shrine for changing class and race.
3) In Dota2 skills can't be spammed.
There are two mitigating factors against spamming skills in Dota2. Firstly the game has cool downs. I understand this is a design decision in ESO to remove this artificial limitation so this is obviously not applicable. The second limiting factor is that in Dota2 mana regen and maximum pool is generally speaking very low: even without a cool down, the average hero could only cast 2-3 spells before running out of resources.
This has the added benefit of making hitting enemy heroes with normal attacks a very valuable asset. Group coordination is very important in Dota2 to bring down the opposing team.
Solution for ESO: Restrict magicka regen. Increase cost for stamina skills.
4) In Dota2 healing is mostly through regen.
There are only a handful of skills that directly heal. The heroes with these skills are therefore highly valued. Even so, the healing skills will hardly ever bring your HP to full. For example the main healing item in the game, Mekanism, heals 250 HP every minute when the average health pool is between 800-2000 HP. Even with this relatively small healing, it can change the course of a battle entirely.
Instead of direct healing spells, HP recovery usually comes from various sources of regeneration and in some cases from life steal. Some heroes have passive abilities that give life steal, but this can also be itemised.
Solution for ESO: Nerf healing? Obviously this would only work if damage levels were much, much lower.
5) In Dota2 Invisibility has strong counters.
Few heroes in Dota2 have built in invisibility / stealth mechanics, but every hero can buy an item that grants temporary invisibility but this requires sacrificing one of your 6 item slots. This balances out the benefits that invisibility can bring. Furthermore, invisibility has strong counters.
One of the main ways to guard against stealth attacks is Sentry Wards. Think of the Alliance war skill Lingering flare. But the key difference between a sentry ward and flare is the duration. A sentry ward reveals invisible units in a relatively large area and lasts 4 minutes. This makes it a useful investment, instead of the utterly feeble Lingering flare. The other common invisibility breaking item is Dust of Appearance, that reveals units in a large radius and prevents them from using invis for 12 seconds, so it's basically Detect Potion.
Solution for ESO: Create an armour set that grants invisibility. Buff Flare considerably.
6) In Dota2 there is no CC break / immunity.
Skills that give stun or incapacitate enemy heroes are very strong in Dota2. There are extremely few skills that give immunity against effects (I believe 2 heroes out of 110?), but every hero can use one of their six item slots to get an item that grants temporary immunity. This emphasises hero positioning during fights, using skills efficiently and in the right order and often just building enough HP on your hero so you can survive being hard CC'd for a short duration.
Solution for ESO: Make CC rarer and make immunity after CC shorter.
7) In Dota2 there are very few instakill gank combos.
Generally speaking a single hero in Dota2 cannot kill another hero, even when attacking them from stealth. There are a few exceptions, but these can be often defended against with the sentry wards that reveal invisible units in the area. Instead the game emphasises team play and there are a few more strong team skill combinations that require good timing to pull off. These team combos can decimate most of the enemy team when executed correctly.
Solution for ESO: Balance max damage values for single characters and skills.
8) Mobility is more equal in Dota2.
Few heroes in Dota2 have built in mobility options, like Sorcerer's Streak in ESO. Furthermore the use of these blink skills is limited by the cool down and smaller resource pools as previously mentioned. But all heroes can buy a mobility item that grants a blink, called Blink Dagger (surprise, surprise!). This gives any hero the ability to perform a short range teleport like Streak. The balancing factor is that it cannot be used if your hero has taken damage within the last 3 seconds, and of course it has a cool down.
Solution for ESO: Balance Streak further, implement an armour set that grants Streak.
9) Dota2 has more counters to strong damage dealing skills and spells.
Dota2 has more status effects than in ESO. Most importantly there is silence, that prevents hero from casting spells, and maim, which prevents a hero from using physical attacks. These can be used to counter particular heroes that have strong spells or very strong weapon damage. Obviously these can't be CC broken either, except with the use of very rare skills or the expensive item that grants temporary magic immunity.
Solution for ESO: Implement silence and maim as effects on some support skills.
10) Dota2 has no Purge.
There is no skill that can remove all status effects from your whole team. Generally speaking skills and items that remove status effects are rare. This ensures that dots, slows, silence etc. do what they're supposed to do, unless the enemy sacrifices a lot to dispel it.
Solution for ESO: Remove Purge (and possibly change some class skills as well).
Okay, that was long. Anyway, these were some of my musings on the differences of Dota2 (a competitive high-stakes PVP game) and ESO. Would these changes make ESO a better PVP game? Dunno. Probably not on their own.
0
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jhharvest✭✭✭Well, opinions are opinions. Forgot actually the most important one:
In Dota2 there is no way to grind for an advantage. The is no CP, there is no legendary tempers on your items, no 30 day research or nirnhoned pieces. The only thing that matters is player skill.0 -
GuyNamedSean✭✭✭✭I'm sorry, why are you trying to compare and contrast the PvP gameplay of a light MMO with a hardcore MOBA?Former Guildmaster of the Legion of Mournhold
XBL: GuyNamedSean
PC: GuyNamedSeanPC6 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭There are some ways to be competitive like in GW2. But why the f*** do you compare Open-world-pvp with quickmatch-pvp?PC EU - DC only3 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭So here's the skinny...There is no fixing PVP until it's completely seperated from PVE. The balance of one directly effects the other, yet the requirements are drastically different for each.
ZOS never envisioned small-scale PVP, and even if part of the PVP community desires it, it will not happen unless/until PVP and PVE are completely uncoupled.2 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can't directly compare eso to a moba; so many fundamental differences. Eso pvp is a constant open-world war for starters. Dota2 is just one small map where timed battles occur. The two games have different objectives on different scales. I'm sure the differences go on for days but I've never played Dota so I'll stop there.PC | EU0 -
MisterBigglesworth✭✭✭✭✭
✭11) DOTA2 actually accomplished what it set out to do.
All differences aside between the two games, DOTA2 has a specific experience in mind for its playerbase and pulls it off flawlessly. ESO, on the other hand, set out to present us with huge battles with hundreds of players on screen at once. Unfortunately, due to the game's poor optimization, it cannot even do that much.Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.0 -
jhharvest✭✭✭Of course MMO PVP experience and MOBAs are two completely different beasts. But I was looking at the differences because of some very popular forum topics that have come up recently.
For example, one thing that gets brought up all the time is how ESO's PVP is marketed as being about resource management. But there's hardly any resource management here at all: almost all builds in PVP have nearly infinite resources. You can easily pull over 3000 stam regen on a damage focused stam build. So what's there to manage here? Just get in there and spam your skills.
Other topics that have come up: changing character race, and the constant arguments about class balance. If we got a respec shrine for changing race AND class, maybe we could try that Elderblades Online for a few weeks until the devs realised they needed to do something urgently.
Same with addressing Streak and Cloak. Dota2 as a game has solved many of these problems. No one complains about invis or blink in Dota2, because they have strong counters, it's always an issue of using the strong counters that you have. Yet at the same time if you look at the most bought items on Dotabuff? Blink Dagger is 4th most used item, Shadowblade is 11th. So invisibility and blinking is still very useful, even though it has much stricter limitations.
I was just interested in what different ways there are of skinning the cat, so to speak. Maybe we'd have fewer 'nerf this, nerf that' topics every week if ESO was balanced a bit more radically.0 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dude I played waaaay too much Dota 2 and happily left the game. ESO is heaven compared to CYKA CYKA WARD WARD PUDGE HOOK you get the picture hopefully.
Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Of course MMO PVP experience and MOBAs are two completely different beasts. But I was looking at the differences because of some very popular forum topics that have come up recently.
For example, one thing that gets brought up all the time is how ESO's PVP is marketed as being about resource management. But there's hardly any resource management here at all: almost all builds in PVP have nearly infinite resources. You can easily pull over 3000 stam regen on a damage focused stam build. So what's there to manage here? Just get in there and spam your skills.
Other topics that have come up: changing character race, and the constant arguments about class balance. If we got a respec shrine for changing race AND class, maybe we could try that Elderblades Online for a few weeks until the devs realised they needed to do something urgently.
Same with addressing Streak and Cloak. Dota2 as a game has solved many of these problems. No one complains about invis or blink in Dota2, because they have strong counters, it's always an issue of using the strong counters that you have. Yet at the same time if you look at the most bought items on Dotabuff? Blink Dagger is 4th most used item, Shadowblade is 11th. So invisibility and blinking is still very useful, even though it has much stricter limitations.
I was just interested in what different ways there are of skinning the cat, so to speak. Maybe we'd have fewer 'nerf this, nerf that' topics every week if ESO was balanced a bit more radically.
The difference is that with ESO it is not just about PVP balance. PVE has to be taken into consideration as well. This is the part that so many hardline PVPers neglect or just don't care about, and that's a huge problem.
Balance cannot be achieved for both aspects equally, because both sides require a different focus. Frankly I believe if the voices clamoring for PVP balance truly cared about the game's health as a whole, they'd advocate for the separation are PVE and PVP. However the truth is they don't care about the game as a whole. They just want to PVP, and many view PVE are an obstruction.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The only thing where mobas (or every competetive game) have to be balanced for is the top 0.1% of the players which is exactly the case (well not even that but yeah - that´s where the meta game starts).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
SHADOW2KK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorry OP barely read any of your post..
Not meaning this badly, but ESO is not Dota2, and from what I read of your post means I will never play Dota 2 either lol.Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a different universe.
Been taking heads since TeS 3 Morrowind..
Been enjoying PvP tears since 2014
LvL 50 - Dragon Knight EP [PC-EU] = Illuvutar = Ex The Wabbajack = (Stam DK)
LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Legendary Blades = Evil Ninja/Dueller = (StamBlade)
LvL 50 - Sorcerer DC [PC-EU] = Daemon Lord = (Mag Sorc)
LvL 50 - Dragon Knight DC [PC-EU] = Khal-Bladez = (Mag DK)
LvL 50 - Dragon Knight DC [PC-EU] = Tenakha Khan = (Stam DK)
LvL 50 - Templar DC [PC-EU]] = Blades The Disgruntled = (Stamplar)
LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Ghost Blades = (Assassin)
LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Malekith The Shadow = (Mag NB)
LvL 50 - Warden DC [PC-EU] = Crimson Blades = (Stamden)
Guild Master of The Bringers Of The Storm.
Harrods
Member Of The Old Guard
PC Closed Betas 2013
PC Mastah Race
Anook Page anook.com/shadow2kk
Been playing since Beta and Early Access1 -
pronkg✭✭✭✭
ive installed DOTA2 once, played it for 1 hour, removed it from my computer and promised myself I will never install it again.
meanwhile I have been playing ESO for more than a year, thats the 11th reason ESO is not like Dota22 -
Johngo0036✭✭✭✭✭I played DOTA and Hated it.... YES hated it..
I would rather take my buggy ESO over DOTA ANYDAY!!!!!
With all the bugs that we moan about endlessly....
PC EU Megaserver
@Johngo0036
CP900+
Altmer Magicka Sorcerer |The-Irritable-Witch(DC)
Orc Stamina Dragonknight | Gru-Bolar(DC)
Dunmer Magicka Nightblade | Chewbucca(DC)
Khajit Stamina Nightblade | Gleaming Daggers(DC)
Altmer Magicka Nightblade | Miss Chewbucca(EP)
Argonian Magicka Templar | Walks-With-Friends(EP)
Argonian Templar Healer | Dr Toxic(EP)
Orc Stamina Sorc | Lady Streaks-Alot(DC)
Dunmer Magicka DK | Whips-n-Chains(DC)
Nord Warden | Demi Tank(DC)
Dunmer Magicka Warden | Crafter-O-Crafts(DC)
Bosmer Stamplar | Forest-Plump(DC)
Argonian Hybrid Nb | Men-O-Paws(DC)
Bosmer Stamblade | 'Maui(AD)
Altmer Magicka Sorcerer | Mid-Life-Crisis(AD)2 -
SHADOW2KK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Johngo0036 wrote: »I played DOTA and Hated it.... YES hated it..
I would rather take my buggy ESO over DOTA ANYDAY!!!!!
With all the bugs that we moan about endlessly....
Beer for this manOnce I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a different universe.
Been taking heads since TeS 3 Morrowind..
Been enjoying PvP tears since 2014
LvL 50 - Dragon Knight EP [PC-EU] = Illuvutar = Ex The Wabbajack = (Stam DK)
LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Legendary Blades = Evil Ninja/Dueller = (StamBlade)
LvL 50 - Sorcerer DC [PC-EU] = Daemon Lord = (Mag Sorc)
LvL 50 - Dragon Knight DC [PC-EU] = Khal-Bladez = (Mag DK)
LvL 50 - Dragon Knight DC [PC-EU] = Tenakha Khan = (Stam DK)
LvL 50 - Templar DC [PC-EU]] = Blades The Disgruntled = (Stamplar)
LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Ghost Blades = (Assassin)
LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Malekith The Shadow = (Mag NB)
LvL 50 - Warden DC [PC-EU] = Crimson Blades = (Stamden)
Guild Master of The Bringers Of The Storm.
Harrods
Member Of The Old Guard
PC Closed Betas 2013
PC Mastah Race
Anook Page anook.com/shadow2kk
Been playing since Beta and Early Access0 -
Ooops quoted wrong personEdited by Forumer-in-Prison on 2 November 2015 09:45Siblings-in-Prison
Lore:At a time of chaos and turmoil, children from all across tamriel have been taken by an evil Argonian Thieves guild. They were raised in captivity, forced to learn their captors evil ways and endured the harsh environment of Black Marsh. The intentions of the evil guild is still unknown till this day.
Amisdt the events surrounding the formation of the Ebonheart Pact, a brave few has escaped their captors and ran off as far away as they can, eventually landing on the shores of khenarthi's roost.
Armed with the skills and the scars they have endured during their captivity, these brothers and sisters in chains has vowed revenge on their Argonian captors and their allies.
They kept the names branded to them by the evil reptiles as a reminder of all the pain and torment they have suffered, and have joined the Aldmeri Dominion as a means to an end... Paint Tamriel with Argonian blood.
[*] Sliced-in-Prison | Bosmer | Suction Blade
[*] Hunk-in-Prison | Breton | Hunky Blade
[*] Muse-in-Prison | Altmer | Healing Babe
[*] Hot-in-Prison | Breton | HotBod Killer0 -
Siblings-in-Prison
Lore:At a time of chaos and turmoil, children from all across tamriel have been taken by an evil Argonian Thieves guild. They were raised in captivity, forced to learn their captors evil ways and endured the harsh environment of Black Marsh. The intentions of the evil guild is still unknown till this day.
Amisdt the events surrounding the formation of the Ebonheart Pact, a brave few has escaped their captors and ran off as far away as they can, eventually landing on the shores of khenarthi's roost.
Armed with the skills and the scars they have endured during their captivity, these brothers and sisters in chains has vowed revenge on their Argonian captors and their allies.
They kept the names branded to them by the evil reptiles as a reminder of all the pain and torment they have suffered, and have joined the Aldmeri Dominion as a means to an end... Paint Tamriel with Argonian blood.
[*] Sliced-in-Prison | Bosmer | Suction Blade
[*] Hunk-in-Prison | Breton | Hunky Blade
[*] Muse-in-Prison | Altmer | Healing Babe
[*] Hot-in-Prison | Breton | HotBod Killer0 -
MisterBigglesworth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Basically everyone who has responded so far:
You don't have to like DOTA2 or MOBAs or even non-MMOs to appreciate some of the points the OP has brought up. The issue here is whether or not you're the kind of person who enjoys actual real PVP where the competition itself is the whole point of playing. Because if you don't... if that's not what you're looking for... then by all means continue participating in this farce known as cyrodiil. You're right at home here.Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GuyNamedSean wrote: »I'm sorry, why are you trying to compare and contrast the PvP gameplay of a light MMO with a hardcore MOBA?
Probably because most people posting here seems to want PvP to function like a balanced hardcore MOBA.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
contact.opiumb16_ESO✭✭✭✭So I've been thinking about the PVP in ESO. I have also been musing on how it is different from Valve's battler. Here are what I think are the 10 major differences:
1) In Dota2 balance is everything.
It's a competitive game that's played for millions of dollars in prize money, so it's obvious that it has to be balanced on every level. In Dota2 balance comes from small tweaks that come with every patch. There is no sudden '50%' reduction here, but tiny changes that get implemented gradually.
The other key difference is how players are able to track different heroes' performance: there are websites that track the win statistics and builds for every hero from hundreds of thousands games weekly. For example Dotabuff (https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/trends). This way it is trivially easy to point out which heroes are stronger or weaker in the current patch.
Solution for ESO: Release detailed statistics on class and skill performance compared against Cyrodiil rank, character level and K/D ratio.
Okay, that was long. Anyway, these were some of my musings on the differences of Dota2 (a competitive high-stakes PVP game) and ESO. Would these changes make ESO a better PVP game? Dunno. Probably not on their own.
Agree with that, not with the others statement because a MMO and a MOBA have different logics (i have more than 1000 matchs in DOTA btw, and i do enjoy this game a lot). BTW the ZOS logic how to balance the game is the most unprofessional and incompetent i have ever seen... And i have 35 years old, playing video games since my 10 !1 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I actually think the methodology that the OP was attempting to explain was well thought out.
His point doesn't having anything to do with DOTA per se, it is the culture of thoughtful balance that DOTA strives for. While ESO doesn't have leaderboards in the same fashion as DOTA, it does have a significant competitive PvP environment.I would argue that Cyrodiil PvP is the ESO endgame -- trials and vDSA are no longer at level cap.1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OP is comparing differences between these very different games (genres even) and then looking for some kind of "solution".
If there are balance problems in ESO, they have to be adressed with the rest of the game in mind. You'd have a stupidly imbalanced system if you were to just take a MOBA system and champions into an open world environment.
There's no line of logical arguing here.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
jhharvest✭✭✭Thank you for all the responses so far. I appreciate the fact that many posters don't want ESO to turn into a 'hardcore' PvP environment like MOBAs are. As I said, I wrote this because I felt it was a way of tackling many of the common topics concerning nerfs and class balance. The wording 'solution' was probably not the best chosen.
I also greatly appreciate that some posters were able to see the logic I was attempting.
I would like to respond to one reply in particular though:
This is true. The community in ESO is far, far better than the community in Dota2. I say this even though I've made some actual friends from playing Dota2 (Valve's game has Asian servers) and the tools for tackling with offensive behaviour (reporting and muting players) work pretty decently. But one of the greatest strengths of ESO (apart from the rich lore of the universe) is the player community. We have a healthy gender split and good age spread playing in both PVE and PVP guilds. This definitely shouldn't be understated or forgotten. The real question is though, how can ZOS cherish this player base and make sure they don't leave the game because of annoyances and issues over game balance?Sheezabeast wrote: »Dude I played waaaay too much Dota 2 and happily left the game. ESO is heaven compared to CYKA CYKA WARD WARD PUDGE HOOK you get the picture hopefully.1 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭MisterBigglesworth wrote: »11) DOTA2 actually accomplished what it set out to do.
All differences aside between the two games, DOTA2 has a specific experience in mind for its playerbase and pulls it off flawlessly. ESO, on the other hand, set out to present us with huge battles with hundreds of players on screen at once. Unfortunately, due to the game's poor optimization, it cannot even do that much.
Go and read about the lightning patch, the only reason we have lag in cyrodil is due to cheaters and exploited requiring a large amount of software to take up valuable server space to monitor these undesirables.
When the game first launched 300vs 300 battles would occur with very little lag.
Even games like battlefield experience lag on 32v32 battles. It's not zos' fault. Blame the players.0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭Of course, blame ZOS for not fixing or punishing them.
They did fix it, but putting a certain set of software on the servers to prevent it, unfortunately this resulted in lag, people got banned, in large amounts from what I've seen, but they had to keep the software in place to prevent further exploiters.
This means more and more checks are used in game, which means the servers have to do more and more processes for every player, and every action.
Put it this way, if these people hadn't been so low as to try and hack the game to get an advantsgr, we could have huge battles with minimal lag.0
