this is why there are so many faceroll NBs right now

xylena

got jumped while fighing mobs, the first two hits were blocked but the second two happened while i was breaking free from fear... i've got about 20k physical resist on average with the build i was using... no other spammable instant does remotely this much damage, stop blaming cloak when the only real NB problem is faceroll dps on stamblades (and that stamblades can heal while invisible, but magblades are pulled from cloak if they use any magicka heal)

Ezareth

If you are blocking try bashing at the same time. I instantly break free of 90% of CC's except the bugged ones because I'm already bashing those *** who do nothing spam SA. That one isn't even weaving.

I got ganked myself last night when I got jumped soloing one of the portals in the sewers. It happens when you mix PvE with PVP. When you have a ton of mobs on you, are already close to being out of resources and have someone at full resources attacking you, you're usually dead.

I don't see any mobs hitting you in that SS though.

timidobserver

With surprise attack your 20k resist goes down to 15k just from the skill use. Then you lose even more to mace and more to crusher enchant and more to the armor reduction CP passive. You need to be nearing 30k resist for it to be even remotely useful when fighting a surprise attack spammer in my experience.

SturgeHammer

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm already bashing those *** who do nothing spam do nothing spam SA."

At the risk of revealing how ignorant I am about some of this games mechanics, would you mind explaining why you would already be bashing people using SA? Can it be interrupted this way?

twistedmonk

I do agree...any healing should take you out of stealth. Not sure why developers didn't think of that

On the upside, it used to be worse. in 1.6 you'd just see one - maybe two - surprise attacks now it's 4 and dead instead of 2. makes sense -- 50% damage reduction. so you die in 5 seconds instead of 3 seconds. of which 2 of those seconds are spent trying to break out of the buggy fear/stun animation. (the game forces the character into a fear animation - which acts like a hard stun for at least 1 second that you can'd do anything about)

takes a lot of skill to play pvp in this game...

GG developers

Ezareth

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm already bashing those *** who do nothing spam do nothing spam SA."

At the risk of revealing how ignorant I am about some of this games mechanics, would you mind explaining why you would already be bashing people using SA? Can it be interrupted this way?

You can't interrupt SA but you can block it.

On my stamina blade when fighting a SA spammer I weave Deep Slash(Sword and Board ability) animation cancel Bashes with block when their SA hits (Releasing after the hit so I usually don't take the regen tick hit). It takes good timing but if you do it right you'll basically block most of their Surprise attacks and since you're already animation cancelling bash (which is the same as break free on default settings) when they hit fear (or petrify) you'll already be in the process of breaking free.

Bash does a fair bit of damage and you can actually get 3 empowered Bashes after a Death stroke (20% bonus damage) because it hits so fast (every .5 seconds). Bash also has a 20% chance to heal you for over ~1200 via a low end CP passive called Envigorating Bash (which all stamina users should have). It also has an additional chance to snare your opponent as well with bash.

Once I break free of the fear and have them properly snared I'll usually back up slightly out of range of their SA and use the superior wrecking blow range to reverse kite them around forcing them to spam ambush.

The timing can be pretty exacting but it is rewarding and I've actually literally Bashed quite a few stamina nightblades to death from 100% to dead.

Gilvoth

nightblade class does not have a healing spell.
stop saying we heal ourselves while cloaked,
and also, cloak has nothing to do with this fight your describing.

SturgeHammer

Ezareth wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm already bashing those *** who do nothing spam do nothing spam SA."

At the risk of revealing how ignorant I am about some of this games mechanics, would you mind explaining why you would already be bashing people using SA? Can it be interrupted this way?

You can't interrupt SA but you can block it.

On my stamina blade when fighting a SA spammer I weave Deep Slash(Sword and Board ability) animation cancel Bashes with block when their SA hits (Releasing after the hit so I usually don't take the regen tick hit). It takes good timing but if you do it right you'll basically block most of their Surprise attacks and since you're already animation cancelling bash (which is the same as break free on default settings) when they hit fear (or petrify) you'll already be in the process of breaking free.

Bash does a fair bit of damage and you can actually get 3 empowered Bashes after a Death stroke (20% bonus damage) because it hits so fast (every .5 seconds). Bash also has a 20% chance to heal you for over ~1200 via a low end CP passive called Envigorating Bash (which all stamina users should have). It also has an additional chance to snare your opponent as well with bash.

Once I break free of the fear and have them properly snared I'll usually back up slightly out of range of their SA and use the superior wrecking blow range to reverse kite them around forcing them to spam ambush.

The timing can be pretty exacting but it is rewarding and I've actually literally Bashed quite a few stamina nightblades to death from 100% to dead.

Thanks for elaborating on that. It might be a little above my skill level to pull off, but there's enough information here to make me want to explore this aggressive bashing concept.

xylena

i don't care if i'm ganked while fighting a bunch of mobs or rummaging my bag or looking at a map, if i'm not paying enough attention i definitely should lose... but it should take more than facerolling 1 button to do it, no? in a "fair" fight situation i more than likely win easily here, but the chaos of the battlefield is part of what makes ESO fun, i have no complaints there

when the optimal stamblade rotation is spamming surprise attack (ok some use wrecking blow because it stun-locks opponets for double the cheez)... it makes the whole class and game look dumb

the thing about healing is a side note cuz the people saying magblade OP need to eat a potato... magblade is pulled from cloak if they use healing ward or whatever, while stamblade heals while invisible with momentum/vigor... this is a massive difference in NB tactical ability

blur

xylena wrote: »

i don't care if i'm ganked while fighting a bunch of mobs or rummaging my bag or looking at a map, if i'm not paying enough attention i definitely should lose... but it should take more than facerolling 1 button to do it, no? in a "fair" fight situation i more than likely win easily here, but the chaos of the battlefield is part of what makes ESO fun, i have no complaints there

when the optimal stamblade rotation is spamming surprise attack (ok some use wrecking blow because it stun-locks opponets for double the cheez)... it makes the whole class and game look dumb

the thing about healing is a side note cuz the people saying magblade OP need to eat a potato... magblade is pulled from cloak if they use healing ward or whatever, while stamblade heals while invisible with momentum/vigor... this is a massive difference in NB tactical ability

If you think SA spam is the optimal NB playstyle you don't know very much about NBs.

xylena

bashing isn't an option for magicka builds, was grinding skill lines on my magblade at the time

i spend way too much time pvp'ing and 99% of my pvp deaths are due to SA or WB spam

maybe there is a slightly better pvp dps rotation out there but when your spammable instant can 3-hit people, why bother?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

xylena wrote: »

i don't care if i'm ganked while fighting a bunch of mobs or rummaging my bag or looking at a map, if i'm not paying enough attention i definitely should lose... but it should take more than facerolling 1 button to do it, no? in a "fair" fight situation i more than likely win easily here, but the chaos of the battlefield is part of what makes ESO fun, i have no complaints there

when the optimal stamblade rotation is spamming surprise attack (ok some use wrecking blow because it stun-locks opponets for double the cheez)... it makes the whole class and game look dumb

the thing about healing is a side note cuz the people saying magblade OP need to eat a potato... magblade is pulled from cloak if they use healing ward or whatever, while stamblade heals while invisible with momentum/vigor... this is a massive difference in NB tactical ability

Do you play a Nightblade the order of attack is ANYTHING then you roll and/or cloak. Always cloak last.

Ezareth

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm already bashing those *** who do nothing spam do nothing spam SA."

At the risk of revealing how ignorant I am about some of this games mechanics, would you mind explaining why you would already be bashing people using SA? Can it be interrupted this way?

You can't interrupt SA but you can block it.

On my stamina blade when fighting a SA spammer I weave Deep Slash(Sword and Board ability) animation cancel Bashes with block when their SA hits (Releasing after the hit so I usually don't take the regen tick hit). It takes good timing but if you do it right you'll basically block most of their Surprise attacks and since you're already animation cancelling bash (which is the same as break free on default settings) when they hit fear (or petrify) you'll already be in the process of breaking free.

Bash does a fair bit of damage and you can actually get 3 empowered Bashes after a Death stroke (20% bonus damage) because it hits so fast (every .5 seconds). Bash also has a 20% chance to heal you for over ~1200 via a low end CP passive called Envigorating Bash (which all stamina users should have). It also has an additional chance to snare your opponent as well with bash.

Once I break free of the fear and have them properly snared I'll usually back up slightly out of range of their SA and use the superior wrecking blow range to reverse kite them around forcing them to spam ambush.

The timing can be pretty exacting but it is rewarding and I've actually literally Bashed quite a few stamina nightblades to death from 100% to dead.

Thanks for elaborating on that. It might be a little above my skill level to pull off, but there's enough information here to make me want to explore this aggressive bashing concept.

Yeah I recently had a guy whisper me accusing me of a "Instant break free macro" because I broke his fears without a hitch every time. Bash is one of my favorite things in the stamina lineup and if you're any ability in the sword and board lineup you should be animation cancelling it with bash which is the easiest animation cancel to pull off IMO.

xylena wrote: »

bashing isn't an option for magicka builds, was grinding skill lines on my magblade at the time

i spend way too much time pvp'ing and 99% of my pvp deaths are due to SA or WB spam

maybe there is a slightly better pvp dps rotation out there but when your spammable instant can 3-hit people, why bother?

Spamming your highest damage ability is the name of the game when damage was gimped so much. Especially considering how many players are running shields which can't be crit right now. If you were spamming healing ward I wouldn't be surprised that he was spamming SA. I'd be wrecking blow spamming the hell out of you (although I'd deep slash you first)

ChefZero

Best counter is StamDK, Nord, 5x Heavy with impenetrable atm

timidobserver

xylena wrote: »

bashing isn't an option for magicka builds, was grinding skill lines on my magblade at the time

i spend way too much time pvp'ing and 99% of my pvp deaths are due to SA or WB spam

maybe there is a slightly better pvp dps rotation out there but when your spammable instant can 3-hit people, why bother?

I was just thinking that it would be nice if Magicka builds could weave bash, but that would end up with you out of stam to CC break. I guess you could go a little bit more hybrid with it and try to buff your Stam and Stam Regen up a bit without losing to much. Maybe throw on 1 block/bash cost reduction glyph?

Ezareth

timidobserver wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

bashing isn't an option for magicka builds, was grinding skill lines on my magblade at the time

i spend way too much time pvp'ing and 99% of my pvp deaths are due to SA or WB spam

maybe there is a slightly better pvp dps rotation out there but when your spammable instant can 3-hit people, why bother?

I was just thinking that it would be nice if Magicka builds could weave bash, but that would end up with you out of stam to CC break. I guess you could go a little bit more hybrid with it and try to buff your Stam and Stam Regen up a bit without losing to much. Maybe throw on 1 block/bash cost reduction glyph?

Stamina cost reduction already reduces bash cost as well as break free and dodge roll. Better than block/bash cost redux.

xylena

just to be clear, i have no trouble with tactics or builds, and win more fights than i lose... run around grinding my shield line without its passives unlocked, probably gonna die some

Spamming your highest damage ability is the name of the game when damage was gimped so much

exactly, and it's dumbing down small scale combat the same way zergblobs dumbed down large scale combat... the wide variety of gear, abilities, and build possiblities are what make ESO enjoyable for me... why make this incredibly complicated game and then reward people for the kind of facerolling that makes trash mobs look like tactical geniouses?

Jitterbug

dont a lot of stuff do those numbers?

Joy_Division

What I find amusing in this patch is when spam meets spam.

The templar jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab Vs. stamina NBs are a sight to behold...

a.skelton92

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I find amusing in this patch is when spam meets spam.

The templar jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab Vs. stamina NBs are a sight to behold...

Jab spam has always confused me.. Is it supposed to be an effective playstyle or something? I always hear about it but.. I have NEVER (whatever class I've played) been beaten in a fight by a Templar spamming it. If i ever encounter one that does spam it; its a free kill. Does not seem effective in the slightest. ??

Docmandu

Ezareth wrote: »

It takes good timing but if you do it right you'll basically block most of their Surprise attacks and since you're already animation cancelling bash

And a pretty sweat ping to the server... thank god I don't live down-under...

BigTone

timidobserver wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

bashing isn't an option for magicka builds, was grinding skill lines on my magblade at the time

i spend way too much time pvp'ing and 99% of my pvp deaths are due to SA or WB spam

maybe there is a slightly better pvp dps rotation out there but when your spammable instant can 3-hit people, why bother?

I was just thinking that it would be nice if Magicka builds could weave bash, but that would end up with you out of stam to CC break. I guess you could go a little bit more hybrid with it and try to buff your Stam and Stam Regen up a bit without losing to much. Maybe throw on 1 block/bash cost reduction glyph?

I've invested a little bit more stam and stam regen into my sorc and it has payed dividends. being able to break free and roll dodge while never running out of stam is a game changer.

timidobserver

BigTone wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

bashing isn't an option for magicka builds, was grinding skill lines on my magblade at the time

i spend way too much time pvp'ing and 99% of my pvp deaths are due to SA or WB spam

maybe there is a slightly better pvp dps rotation out there but when your spammable instant can 3-hit people, why bother?

I was just thinking that it would be nice if Magicka builds could weave bash, but that would end up with you out of stam to CC break. I guess you could go a little bit more hybrid with it and try to buff your Stam and Stam Regen up a bit without losing to much. Maybe throw on 1 block/bash cost reduction glyph?

I've invested a little bit more stam and stam regen into my sorc and it has payed dividends. being able to break free and roll dodge while never running out of stam is a game changer.

I did the same and my Magicka build is an Imperial. I can usually cc break when I need to, but I don't have the stam sustain to use bash in my regular rotation.

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I find amusing in this patch is when spam meets spam.

The templar jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab Vs. stamina NBs are a sight to behold...

Jab spam is a lot easier to deal with than surprise attack.

Joy_Division

a.skelton92 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I find amusing in this patch is when spam meets spam.

The templar jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab Vs. stamina NBs are a sight to behold...

Jab spam has always confused me.. Is it supposed to be an effective playstyle or something? I always hear about it but.. I have NEVER (whatever class I've played) been beaten in a fight by a Templar spamming it. If i ever encounter one that does spam it; its a free kill. Does not seem effective in the slightest. ??

Be sure to post that when the people I and other magicka templars kill by biting jabs spam begin to get annoyed and start nerf jabs posts

Any offensive spam is more effective than it ought to be because bashing, blocking, and dodging are prohibitively expensive for players that are not stamina builds with good regeneration rates.

I would agree that spamming by itself is not particularly difficult to defeat, but an experienced player who knows how to supplement that spam with intelligent use of movement, CC, LOS, etc., is a very difficult opponent.

Docmandu

timidobserver wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I find amusing in this patch is when spam meets spam.

The templar jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab-jab Vs. stamina NBs are a sight to behold...

Jab spam is a lot easier to deal with than surprise attack.

Especially since you can outrun / sprint away from a channeling / jabbing templar, hard to do versus a SA spamming NB.

Armitas

timidobserver wrote: »

With surprise attack your 20k resist goes down to 15k just from the skill use. Then you lose even more to mace and more to crusher enchant and more to the armor reduction CP passive. You need to be nearing 30k resist for it to be even remotely useful when fighting a surprise attack spammer in my experience.

Yeah they really need to put a cap on what you can do to pen/ break armor in pvp. You have to heavily invest to get any real armor mitigation, it shouldn't be so easily trivialized.

xylena

Any offensive spam is more effective than it ought to be because bashing, blocking, and dodging are prohibitively expensive for players that are not stamina builds with good regeneration rates.

yeah, and even stam builds will blow their entire green bar if they try to play defensively since the costs keep increasing while spam attack costs don't... so their best option is usually to try to spam SA or WB at a higher net dps

Especially since you can outrun / sprint away from a channeling / jabbing templar, hard to do versus a SA spamming NB.

made even worse by the fact that ambush itself hits for 5-7k and is followed by a buffed 7-9k surprise attack

Yeah they really need to put a cap on what you can do to pen/ break armor in pvp. You have to heavily invest to get any real armor mitigation, it shouldn't be so easily trivialized.

would be cool if they replaced those useless "armor focus" CPs with something that say, reduces opponent armor penetration, or gives a flat physical dmg reduction

JDar

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

i don't care if i'm ganked while fighting a bunch of mobs or rummaging my bag or looking at a map, if i'm not paying enough attention i definitely should lose... but it should take more than facerolling 1 button to do it, no? in a "fair" fight situation i more than likely win easily here, but the chaos of the battlefield is part of what makes ESO fun, i have no complaints there

when the optimal stamblade rotation is spamming surprise attack (ok some use wrecking blow because it stun-locks opponets for double the cheez)... it makes the whole class and game look dumb

the thing about healing is a side note cuz the people saying magblade OP need to eat a potato... magblade is pulled from cloak if they use healing ward or whatever, while stamblade heals while invisible with momentum/vigor... this is a massive difference in NB tactical ability

Do you play a Nightblade the order of attack is ANYTHING then you roll and/or cloak. Always cloak last.

That's how lame-o nightblades do it. The real way to do it is to cloak before you attack so you get a damage buff and proc Veiled Strike's CC.

Shogunami

xylena wrote: »

no other spammable instant does remotely this much damage, stop blaming cloak when the only real NB problem is faceroll dps on stamblades (and that stamblades can heal while invisible, but magblades are pulled from cloak if they use any magicka heal)

I got owned by some dude only spamming Ransack/bash with animation cancelling the other day, doing about 4k per hit only with the ransack, pair that with light attack and bash and you get sword and boarders who can do nearly 10k per hit. I got healed during this fight, so I survived for about 3-4 seconds instead of ½-1. And I also have 20k physical resistence.

Don't go crying about NB's, they're the ones that I kill the most easily as an NB and all other classes are way tougher, for me at least.

Soulac

As far as I can see you took some full hits without blocking, dodging or whatever.
You know how it would looks like against shards, jabs, WB or literally any other dmg skill? Correct, no difference.

I don't know, but if you stay in front of him and get hitted four times it means you got around four seconds to do something.
You also said he attacked you while fighting for mobs.. So he had a clear advantage.

Don't see the problem to be honest..
There is also a difference between being able to cast a healing ward which breaks cloak and then instantly recasting again and a heal over time which doesn't break cloak.
I mean vigor and rally are not spammable, combat prayer and healing ward are.

Your problem with fear is understandable, but it's applying on all stuns and is hopefully fixed in the future..

Maulkin

Shogunami wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

no other spammable instant does remotely this much damage, stop blaming cloak when the only real NB problem is faceroll dps on stamblades (and that stamblades can heal while invisible, but magblades are pulled from cloak if they use any magicka heal)

I got owned by some dude only spamming Ransack/bash with animation cancelling the other day, doing about 4k per hit only with the ransack, pair that with light attack and bash and you get sword and boarders who can do nearly 10k per hit. I got healed during this fight, so I survived for about 3-4 seconds instead of ½-1. And I also have 20k physical resistence.

Don't go crying about NB's, they're the ones that I kill the most easily as an NB and all other classes are way tougher, for me at least.

Now replace the Ransack with Surprise Attacks (still on S&B) and the combo of:
Light Attack -> Surprise Attacks -> Bash

....is nothing short of faceroll burst. It's basically what @soulac does

However the QQ about NBs is not only about Suprise Attacks or only about Cloak. It's because of the whole package they offer. A lot of it is down to how stamina builds work in general but the whole stamblade package is insane.

It's the single target burst, it's the AoE damage, it's the escape capabilities, it's the best DoT heals, it's the awesome ultimates.

NBs currently make the best stamina class and probably the best magicka class (on a par with Sorc). And in IC where they can skip past mobs at will, they are OP as feck. Which is why the QQ against them is gathering momentum.