How does PvP?

coryrenick_ESO

I stink on ice. Templar, 2Hander, Medium armor, Stam build, 120 CP atm
Now that I don't die the very second I see someone in an enemy faction, I have a few questions:

1) Damage. I'm amazed I when I see myself hit for above 1000 damage, yet I constantly get hit by 3-4-5,000 damage attacks, even when I'm blocking. I already have weapon power just above 3000 without buffs. What do I need to be doing to dish out, as well as mitigate, that kind of damage? Got CP points in Ritual and Lady to try to do more and take less damage.

2) Dodge rolling. Supposedly the days of unlimited dodge rolling are over, but I still see a lot of it going on, while I can manage 4-5 before I run out of stamina. I know stamina has taken a hit in IC in general, but even very judicious use of dodge roll depletes my stamina, fast. More points in Tumbling under the Shadow?

3) Blocking. Same deal. I still get hit pretty hard and the stamina drain makes me unable to do much else. I assume I'm doing something wrong.

Gern_Verkheart

Im having all the same problems on my stamina DK. I keep asking people questions to try and learn how to play but I always just get trolls to respond. It's very frustrating.

Sithisvoid

I have the same probs lol. My numbers are good, i'm trying to learn to animation cancel but half the time when i'm attacking someone they just stop taking dmg. Like completely just stop and turn and faceroll me lol. I get it i'm new but after three months i think i should be starting to get it by now

Waffennacht

Ok a few questions, where are your attributes? A lot of the big damage comes from a character with a ton of attributes dedicated to stamina or Magicka. Health dumps are usually in tank builds.

As for taking damage, that's directly related to your armor and passives and abilities. Some times you may just not have enough to prevent big attacks

Are you PC? Changes to blocking make it way different than it was before.

coryrenick_ESO

Sithisvoid wrote: »

I have the same probs lol. My numbers are good, i'm trying to learn to animation cancel but half the time when i'm attacking someone they just stop taking dmg. Like completely just stop and turn and faceroll me lol. I get it i'm new but after three months i think i should be starting to get it by now

Glad to see I'm not the only one. I'd think it was just my technique if I could get solid hits in, but I can't seem to do that either. My guild suggested I stack much more weapon damage, and while that's helped immensely in Craglorn, I swear I've never seen the benefit in PvP.
CPs can give great bonuses, but then I have trouble believing every single person I meet has that many more CPs than me.

Gern_Verkheart

Im a PC player, I have all my attributes put into stamina, and I don't die instantly. My problem is that everyone is able to outlast me. I don't seem to do enough damage, even when I get several wrecking blows off on them. It's like they have unlimited stamina and way stronger heals than me, even other DK's, and I run out of stamina long before they do.

coryrenick_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok a few questions, where are your attributes? A lot of the big damage comes from a character with a ton of attributes dedicated to stamina or Magicka. Health dumps are usually in tank builds.

As for taking damage, that's directly related to your armor and passives and abilities. Some times you may just not have enough to prevent big attacks

Are you PC? Changes to blocking make it way different than it was before.

PC.
I have... what.... 23 health and the rest in Stamina? None in Magicka. I know I split the total into rough thirds and gave myself 1/3 health and 2/3 stamina.
But I didn't think Stamina or Magicka affected damage. That'd be one thing I'd be getting wrong, surely.
It's just that according to FTC, true in 1.6 and the new patch, was that my strongest hits do about 1/4 the damage I see done to me. I can do 1500 damage, and someone can do 6000 to me. If it was a matter of hitting hard or resisting the damage, I'd understand the tradeoff, but I can't seem to do that kind of damage or protect myself from it.
Wrecking blow spam is supposed to be OP right now, and even that doesn't seem to put the hurt on anyone when I do it.
Just need to understand.

Waffennacht

Yeah damage is based on your stamina or magicka.

Wrecking blow is OP (from wut iknow) is the CC immunity timer gets outta sync so if you time it right you'll infinitely lock them

Reeko

Are you using buffs? Whats your wpn/spell dmg at?

coryrenick_ESO

Reeko wrote: »

Are you using buffs? Whats your wpn/spell dmg at?

Like I said, WP damage is at a base of 3000. Like 2974 if you want to get technical. Weapon crit is 44.5%. I'd change my bar for something that works, but that's the point, I don't understand why my output is terrible.
My main bar is Biting Jabs, Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Rally, and a Sun Shield morph. Don't remember the name. Can change it out for whatever I need, just Biting Jabs and Wrecking Blow are supposed to be doing well right now. Secondary is resto staff stuff, with Templar healing to supplement. Don't have many issues healing, except when folk try to kill me.

Johngo0036

Templars main damage comes from the debuffs they can cast on other players,

I dont see you using any of the debuffs to slower their healing,

Amica

CP 60 into physical damage.
35 into crit
15 into the armor reduction.

Add the shield breaker set,

Rally for your Attack power buff.
Knock down / Wrecking blow / light attack / Finisher.
Roll through the target not away from target.
Roll backwards to the same spot you where standing.
7-10 times the person has their back to you aka a damage bonus for hitting your target from behind.

imo wrecking blow builds are as bad as NBs that use just shadow assault and spam it to death like they have only one ability.
Always keep pots running, even if your full health, cheap ass stam one if your a templar. This is for the regen not the extra stam although it helps.

Learn to block less and instead counter the attack through your build like trops or anything that puts the person off balance.
The points into reduce the cost of blocking is a waist.
imo try putting points into reducing your damage taken, then you dont need to block as much.
Armour traits help if medium or even heavy. NIRN will only be of use on maybe your legs and chest if you think you need the spell resist.

Most of the classes i have played so far, i find damage comes second to keeping yourself alive. If your a pump out everything i got and hope they die player, you have to re learn to play your toon.

Hope some of it helps you out and good luck.

Kode

Practice. Treat every fight like a lesson until you get better. So many people play this game on autopilot and dont think about what they are doing. It is hard to train yourself out of it.

Understand there are fights you cant win. Sometimes the odds are largely against you. Take it in stride and keep trying because you will get better. Even if you learn to suck for the next 3 months, when you get better you will know more about what makes people suck than the next guy... and that will make you better.

Gern_Verkheart

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

...Understand there are fights you cant win. Sometimes the odds are largely against you...

This is every fight, and I can't figure out how to change it. I've tried several different builds, techniques, and nothing. I fought a templar the other day, also Vet-16 like me, who just soaked up all 3 of the wrecking blows I hit him with, didn't even try to block/dodge them, and it barely dented his health. Meanwhile, he was getting 3.5K-4k biting jabs off on me. Even though I have 18K spell resist, 19K physical resistance, and 2.5K weapon damage. It was like I was hitting him with pillows while he was shooting a cannon at me, and I most certainly wasn't just standing in front of him face tanking the biting jabs. I was rolling away, blocking and inturrupting, but I couldn't maintain it. With the huge nerfs to stamina users (rolling more than once in a fight pretty much uses all your stamina, and bash costs a crap load of stamina now) I run out of stamina just a couple seconds into a fight, even though I have 30k stamina. Needless to say the fight was over in just a few seconds.

Is it all gear? Is this game THAT gear dependant? Am I forced to just completely suck, and reserve myself to being everyone's punching bag until I can get a full set of V-16 gear from IC? Because that isn't even close to resembling fun.

Minno

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

...Understand there are fights you cant win. Sometimes the odds are largely against you...

This is every fight, and I can't figure out how to change it. I've tried several different builds, techniques, and nothing. I fought a templar the other day, also Vet-16 like me, who just soaked up all 3 of the wrecking blows I hit him with, didn't even try to block/dodge them, and it barely dented his health. Meanwhile, he was getting 3.5K-4k biting jabs off on me. Even though I have 18K spell resist, 19K physical resistance, and 2.5K weapon damage. It was like I was hitting him with pillows while he was shooting a cannon at me, and I most certainly wasn't just standing in front of him face tanking the biting jabs. I was rolling away, blocking and inturrupting, but I couldn't maintain it. With the huge nerfs to stamina users (rolling more than once in a fight pretty much uses all your stamina, and bash costs a crap load of stamina now) I run out of stamina just a couple seconds into a fight, even though I have 30k stamina. Needless to say the fight was over in just a few seconds.

Is it all gear? Is this game THAT gear dependant? Am I forced to just completely suck, and reserve myself to being everyone's punching bag until I can get a full set of V-16 gear from IC? Because that isn't even close to resembling fun.

Difference in gear between vr 10 and 16 should be minor for pvp. You'll miss out on 200+ spell dmg or mag here and there but honestly its nothing to grind about.

You can craft vr 14 cheaply and still do OK. Same for vr 15 (each item only needs 15 or so mats which are easy to get in IC).

If you are limited in gear, use CP, stats, enchants and passives to make up for it.

newtinmpls

I wish I had better answers for you .... I kinda suck too, but I'm slowly hooking up with better people and learning.

The last character I had in PvP was a 22nd dunmer magkica DK running with three vet characters. I am sorta buffed because I ran with a friend and got literally all the skyshards in Cyrodiil, so I have all the passives (light armor, dunmer, destro staff and so on) that I can possibly have. I think he's got all his stats in magicka and does blue food to buff health/magicka.

In a fight I know I'm the weakest character there ... so I do a few things. I always keep Igneous sheild up (the morph that is max healing for my character) along with Green dragon blood (the morph that also boots stamina regen - since pretty much I have no other bonuses to stamina). Both have visuals so I can tell when they wear off.

I also cast Dragon Standard as often as possible (which turns out to be quite often in IC).

In combat I tend to do one of two approaches:

If there are mobs, I cast choking talons (the morph that reduces damage they do) and firey breath (AoE - not sure if I've morphed it or not) and alternate those with heavy destro attacks to regen magicka.

If there are spellcasters, I tend to alternate crushing shock (interupts spellcasters) with Unstable Wall of Elements (AoE that has an explosion when it expires so I can know to re-cast it) and again, insert a few heavy attacks in between each of these.

And being that I'm inherently squishy - as despite battle leveling, I'm not as powerful as the rest of the group, if it gets hairy, and my screen gets that red tinge of "you are about to die" I dodgeroll the heck out of there. Now in Imperial City, when getting ganked by Blues, this had the unexpected benefit of rolling me out of the danger, right near a nasty-*ss roving monstrosity of bones... which I promply light attacked, and led back into the fray - calling out in Skype to the rest of my group that the stuff was about to hit the fan.

Daedra know why it worked - but oddly it did.

coryrenick_ESO

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

Practice. Treat every fight like a lesson until you get better. So many people play this game on autopilot and dont think about what they are doing. It is hard to train yourself out of it.

Understand there are fights you cant win. Sometimes the odds are largely against you. Take it in stride and keep trying because you will get better. Even if you learn to suck for the next 3 months, when you get better you will know more about what makes people suck than the next guy... and that will make you better.

I have to agree with Gern Verkheart. It's not just that a matter of learning to dodge roll in exactly the right way, it's that I really do not understand the number game. I don't get the results in PvP the guides to builds and stats seem to tell me I should. While he seems to have greater troubles than I do if he's not exaggerating, I continually do about 1/4 of the damage I take from pretty much any player I come up against, if my FTC is to be believed. I'll critical someone for 1.4K unblocked, and they'll hit me with 4K-6K damage, often several times according to the death recap. I'll still get hit for 3K even when I'm blocking.
Just don't know what the disconnect is. No one else had this problem?

Ishammael

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

Practice. Treat every fight like a lesson until you get better. So many people play this game on autopilot and dont think about what they are doing. It is hard to train yourself out of it.

Understand there are fights you cant win. Sometimes the odds are largely against you. Take it in stride and keep trying because you will get better. Even if you learn to suck for the next 3 months, when you get better you will know more about what makes people suck than the next guy... and that will make you better.

I have to agree with Gern Verkheart. It's not just that a matter of learning to dodge roll in exactly the right way, it's that I really do not understand the number game. I don't get the results in PvP the guides to builds and stats seem to tell me I should. While he seems to have greater troubles than I do if he's not exaggerating, I continually do about 1/4 of the damage I take from pretty much any player I come up against, if my FTC is to be believed. I'll critical someone for 1.4K unblocked, and they'll hit me with 4K-6K damage, often several times according to the death recap. I'll still get hit for 3K even when I'm blocking.
Just don't know what the disconnect is. No one else had this problem?

You need to make some videos of your PoV when you fight, including gear and skill load-outs. That is the only way you're going to get some help.

Watch the way many of the YouTubers play -- many similar movement techniques despite different classes.

AshTal

My guess is it's gear and CP points. I see some Sorcs hit their shields and its like 15K mine looks to be like 3K. Some people fight 5 or 6 other players and last minutes. If I fight 2 people I know its over.

I suspect their gear and CP points just make them insanely more powerful. Maybe a bit of flavour of the month. But no amount of skill would let me take 10 seconds of attacks from 5 people yet others do.

I have seen 3 AD fighting 15 pact and still kicking the crap out of us. I don't think any guide/skill will ever make up for the gear and CP points. But I guess if we keep at it one day we will have the Uber gear and CP and be doing the same to new players

Wreuntzylla

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

Practice. Treat every fight like a lesson until you get better. So many people play this game on autopilot and dont think about what they are doing. It is hard to train yourself out of it.

Understand there are fights you cant win. Sometimes the odds are largely against you. Take it in stride and keep trying because you will get better. Even if you learn to suck for the next 3 months, when you get better you will know more about what makes people suck than the next guy... and that will make you better.

I have to agree with Gern Verkheart. It's not just that a matter of learning to dodge roll in exactly the right way, it's that I really do not understand the number game. I don't get the results in PvP the guides to builds and stats seem to tell me I should. While he seems to have greater troubles than I do if he's not exaggerating, I continually do about 1/4 of the damage I take from pretty much any player I come up against, if my FTC is to be believed. I'll critical someone for 1.4K unblocked, and they'll hit me with 4K-6K damage, often several times according to the death recap. I'll still get hit for 3K even when I'm blocking.
Just don't know what the disconnect is. No one else had this problem?

That seems not right. You seem to be having both a TTK and TTL issue at the same time.

You are soloing, yes? So, your build should lean towards mitigation and sustain. A 1v1 between people with decent builds will most often be won by whomever has the most or enough sustain. If both have enough sustain, it will usually be a draw or decided by your opponent, when they make a critical mistake or fall asleep.

1. For soloing, consider using drink and not food.

Overall, balance stamina regen bonuses with stamina bonuses, and make sure all your jewelry is cost reduction enchanted (or perhaps regen with the 1.7 regen enchant buff). How many and what combination of stamina regens or replenishments you use depends alot on your play style. Templars can slot repentance as well.

2. Consider using a set like Armor Master, and filling in the rest with stamina and weapon damage.

You can do more than fine with V15 Armor Master, which is a crafted set. The difference between V15 and V16 armor is very small. A V15 set will be relatively easy and cheap for you to have made. You can still have respectable DPS, enough to kill many tank builds.

Here is the thing with armor master. It provides so much mitigation in combo with resolve/ward that you can use divines and infused traits, instead of reinforced and nirnhoned, recovering some of the DPS you lost in using the set. With Armor Master, most people will start to hit you for less than 2k . Keep elude up constantly to get the bonus from Armor Master and you will also dodge a healthy amount of attacks. If you aren't using rune focus, which is tough to use post-patch, consider using immovable (which gives major ward/resolve) instead of elude. Some people use both immovable and elude.

However, if you are still taking too much damage, consider using the impenetrable trait. Impenetrable was given a buff in 1.7. Armor master + impenetrable is a surprisingly effective combo.

3. Once you have enough stamina, weapon damage is more important. Although opinions vary, I think you want at least 20k stamina. I've seen some people do well running 18k, but they are rare birds. Many folks run 30k+ stamina with imperial race... Try to get at least 2k+ weapon damage unbuffed.

In general, glass cannon builds are best for solo gank and group play. However, you don't need to have glass canon damage to kill people solo. You just have to outlast them resource wise. There is a break point you need to find, though, or things like vigor will out heal your damage.

4. Templar's do not have major breach/fracture on a class ability, so consider 2H with 1h/shield, and grab puncture.

I don't have the dps problem you're describing, but I know a couple of people that run a tank killing build that uses puncture. I personally tend to use heroic slash when running 1h/shield, but the key is to shore up your personal weaknesses.

5. Consider sharpened trait on your weapons.

Armor penetration is very important, as is breach (armor reduction).

6. Consider vigor + rally if you are taking too much damage due to your playstyle.

The heals you use will depend on what other mitigation you are using and what skills you have to have on your bar. Vigor is now very easy to get and is probably overtuned. Many, many stamina builds use vigor, some use vigor + rally.

7. Consider using disease enchant on your primary weapon.

Disease has a chance to proc a heal debuff. Because everybody and their brother is using vigor, and damage is reduced farther in PvP, you might also want to run reverberating bash for major defile.

8. Consider using biting jabs.

Biting jabs is good DPS. Last I checked, each hit has a chance to proc burning light for even more damage! Jabs comes with major savagery, so if you are also using rally, you can use tripots. I like tripots. I really, really like tripots. Lots of regen. However, jabs fits some playstyles and not so much with others. It can be tough to use effectively unless you practice quite a bit. For example, players who dodge roll through you will mess you up until you practice spinning/cancelling.

9. Consider using an ultimate based on what you face the most.

When soloing, because I face alot of tanky vampires, I typically slot dawnbreaker with something else. I have been using nova in IC after dragging enemy into a tunnel with me.

10. If the reason you are doing too little damage is in part because people are using maim on you, consider purifying ritual. If the reason you are dying so fast is people are using major/minor breach/fracture on you, same thing. Also good to remove dots, etc.

You can't have it all on a templar, but you can play around with the different things I outlined above to come up with a build that fits your playstyle. The key is figuring out your weaknesses and shoring them up with abilities/mitigation/damage.

Tonturri

What faction and server are you on? I'm NA AD - if you're a different faction, I'd gladly plop any of my characters at a designated place to we can try and figure out what's wrong.

(or perhaps regen with the 1.7 regen enchant buff

If you're running full medium, I believe regen is superior to cost reduction. On my soon to be 5H/2M DK, I'll be running cost reduction.

coryrenick_ESO

Tonturri wrote: »

What faction and server are you on? I'm NA AD - if you're a different faction, I'd gladly plop any of my characters at a designated place to we can try and figure out what's wrong.

(or perhaps regen with the 1.7 regen enchant buff

If you're running full medium, I believe regen is superior to cost reduction. On my soon to be 5H/2M DK, I'll be running cost reduction.

Yeah, NA AD, too. So no luck there.
I might give heavy armor another try, assuming I can figure out my TTK, TTL issue. I'm neither glass cannon nor mighty glacier. I'm a glass glacier!
I assume this has to come down to CP. I'm a master crafter, so can make anything except the newest stuff, and regularly work up sets of purple to tool around in. Been through all of Cadwell's Silver and Gold. Every Skyshard but the IC ones. I should at least be loaded for bear, even if IC is full of giant Hircine empowered monster bears.
Wreuntzylla's advice is good, but I've already followed it almost to the letter. Running a 2 Hand main, 1H/Shield secondary. I just put puncture on my bar at the behest of someone else, but have yet to test it. I have Sharpened on the 2-Hander and Disease on the 1-Hander. 2H bar is Critical Charge, Biting Jabs, Wrecking Blow, Rally, and Sun Shield. 1H Bar is one of the puncture morphs, Rune Focus/Immovable (Don't see much difference besides the brief CC immunity, but I generally have more Magicka to spare), Purifying Ritual, Defensive Stance, and the last one is usually some direct healing, Breath of Life or Vigor or something. Having been running Empowering Sweep and/or Dawnbreaker
I can give Armor Master a try. And I'll keep at it. Or Willow's Path? Used to run with that on Heavy Armor for PvE.
Just need to be able to give as good, so I know my gear has less to do with my death than my footwork.

Wreuntzylla

Try Armor Master. Heck, you can make a VR14 version to see if it works for you.

Immovable moves with you and makes the Armor Master set bonus work. Rune Focus used to be awesome, but they nerfed (fixed?) it so that you have to stay in the circle to keep the resist bonuses. Yech.

You probably know this but, just to be sure, I mean the sharpened trait and disease enchant. In other words, I put both disease and sharpened on each weapon. Sometimes I use defending trait on a 1h for added resist, or armor debuff enchant for dual wield off-hand. However, sharpened is even more important post-patch, so all the weapons I actually use are typically sharpened now.

coryrenick_ESO

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Try Armor Master. Heck, you can make a VR14 version to see if it works for you.

Immovable moves with you and makes the Armor Master set bonus work. Rune Focus used to be awesome, but they nerfed (fixed?) it so that you have to stay in the circle to keep the resist bonuses. Yech.

You probably know this but, just to be sure, I mean the sharpened trait and disease enchant. In other words, I put both disease and sharpened on each weapon. Sometimes I use defending trait on a 1h for added resist, or armor debuff enchant for dual wield off-hand. However, sharpened is even more important post-patch, so all the weapons I actually use are typically sharpened now.

Ah yes. At the time I had them mixed up. The 2Hander is sharpened with an Unresistible Enchant. The 1Hand is Sharpened with a Disease Enchant. Unresistible might not be worth it.

As for Rune Focus, I thought you kept the buff up to 8 seconds after leaving the circle. That's what the tooltips says, now that I'm back to my home computer.

VincentBlanquin

TTK TTL seems familiar isuue for me too. I am only interested in stamina builds using bow and sword and shield, so its not hard to figure out how screwed i am in this game. I think its about gear and various pasives at skill lines (not only stats but what procs), champion points (not only passive numbers but there are very strong milestones too) and of course experience. None of these things can be efectively rushed. I just consider myself roleplayer to avoid feeling how unbearable things are.

newtinmpls

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

TTK TTL seems familiar isuue for me too. I am only interested in stamina builds using bow and sword and shield, so its not hard to figure out how screwed i am in this game.

I agree. I hate timers and being rushed - and this patch seems to be a little bit better.

I want to win by skill and patience, not by successfully having ground the right gear and min/maxed my ability bars.

CtrlAltDlt

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Try Armor Master. Heck, you can make a VR14 version to see if it works for you.

Immovable moves with you and makes the Armor Master set bonus work. Rune Focus used to be awesome, but they nerfed (fixed?) it so that you have to stay in the circle to keep the resist bonuses. Yech.

You probably know this but, just to be sure, I mean the sharpened trait and disease enchant. In other words, I put both disease and sharpened on each weapon. Sometimes I use defending trait on a 1h for added resist, or armor debuff enchant for dual wield off-hand. However, sharpened is even more important post-patch, so all the weapons I actually use are typically sharpened now.

This is a heavy armor set right?

Tailger

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, NA AD, too. So no luck there.

I've got two vet16's in NA/EP PC platform if you would like a friendly-foe to help practice with and test things out.. One is a templar and the other is a dragonknight.

I do this occasionally at Applewatch Inn in Cyrodiil with friends to test things out. Seems appropriate to have a bar fight at an.. actual bar in game.

@Tailger in game.