Bolt escape/streak vs Roll dodge

dRudE

Both are escape mechanics yet one has only penalties for using it and the other has buff after buff for using it.

Sure I'm a sorc and the stam players will just hide behind the "oh you can just BE and stack shields" argument, but BE got a severe nerf early on in the game when the stam players weren't getting there way and we just dealt with it, and still get asked for nerfs. Shields are just spells, if i get knocked down i can't cast them but at the same time I don't think they should stack like they do currently, have a major shield(hardened ward OR harness magicka) and a minor shield(healing ward) not all 3. And i do not take claim to that shield idea, somebody else suggested it.

This has more to do with ANY class roll dodging, roll dodging through damage, roll dodging through CC, roll dodging anything that anyone does and when the get CC'd or knocked down they just roll dodge straight out of it. Why is there no penalty for roll dodging? Or why is there no extra reduce cost for streaking(just a 50% extra magicka penalty for using it more than once). Roll dodgers can spec into Tumbling which gives the biggest reduction to roll dodge along with mooncalf which increases stam regen so they can roll dodge more often, they also have warlord which reduces the cost of stam abilities so they are getting more pool to roll dodge with AND they can STACK evasion with roll dodge. Then lets look at the shiny CP passives that buff the tactic even more so, Phase - your armor and spell resistance increased by X amount for 3 seconds after roll dodging, ok it's not much but it's still a buff, and Tactician - sets enemies off balance when you successfully roll dodge to avoid their attack, probably one of the most OP CP passives in the game at the moment while people just roll around the map looking like a circus act(no offence intended, people will abuse broken mechanics while they are there).

Yeah some skills exist in game that cannot be roll dodged but if i understand correctly people asked for that not to happen, why? So the only viable way to pvp would be to go all out stam and just roll zerg? That only attracts the stam players and would certainly kill off any magicka lover.

Roll dodge needs to exist for sure, it's a worthy mechanic, but that's exactly just what it should be, worthy. Not so OP that a fully DPS stacked stam build can pretty much tank a zerg while putting out enough AOE damage to kill them. If a sorc BE's across the map that's pretty much all they can do, they will have a large mana pool and some spell damage from that but will need to stack regen to replace all the extra 50%'s lost, losing the ability to fore off 15-20k frags.

This is just my opinion, I am probably wrong, but something about roll dodge just seems off at the moment and half of my pvp guild isn't having any fun due to this and the lag. So would it hurt if roll dodge became percent based? or had an increased cost if used consecutively? Sorcs survived our changes, adapted and became even more fun to play due to having to put more skill into the class, isn't this what players want, a game built around your own intellectual skill rather than how many times you can press the same key in a row?

If I am wrong, or am missing something, tell me. But I don't see why shield stacking classes should take another nerf(need to mention the nerf to crit surge's healing ability which caused all the shield stacking in the first place) while roll dodging goes unchanged. It's one or the other, silly shields and rolley polley's or both take a hit to provide some fairness.

Domander

You think dodge roll is an "escape mechanic"?

Lava_Croft

Domander wrote: »

You think dodge roll is an "escape mechanic"?

Given the fact there's a specific passive in the Bow skill line that gives you a movement speed buff after a dodge roll, I think it's safe to say that it also is intended as an escape mechanic.

FriedEggSandwich

As a sorc there is an easy counter to dodge roll in the form of streak. You can't block while rolling so streak will stun a roller 100% of the time assuming they have no immunity, and if you spec right will also take a sizable chunk of their hp off. This gives you time to put a frags in their back and assuming you have a curse up also they should be nearly dead by now, just a wrath to finish them off. Or if they dodge the wrath then execute with streak

The penalty for doge rolling for a magicka build is it's cost; if I dodge roll a returned frags then I probably won't have enough stamina left to break free from the fear that just hit me from the NB that just noticed me dodge roll. Dodge roll is fine, streak is fine, shield stacking is fine, nothing to worry about.

On a side note healing ward is not a minor ward, and shield stacking is fine cos light armour offers no defense and the shields take up most of one skill bar.

Domander

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

You think dodge roll is an "escape mechanic"?

Given the fact there's a specific passive in the Bow skill line that gives you a movement speed buff after a dodge roll, I think it's safe to say that it also is intended as an escape mechanic.

I don't think so, the bow passive is what gives the speed, so you could call the bow passive something that would help you escape. Speed buffs (or debuffs), bolt escape, and cloak are what allows players to escape, roll dodge just keeps them from dying while trying to escape.

Garion

Domander wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

You think dodge roll is an "escape mechanic"?

Given the fact there's a specific passive in the Bow skill line that gives you a movement speed buff after a dodge roll, I think it's safe to say that it also is intended as an escape mechanic.

I don't think so, the bow passive is what gives the speed, so you could call the bow passive something that would help you escape. Speed buffs (or debuffs), bolt escape, and cloak are what allows players to escape, roll dodge just keeps them from dying while trying to escape.

Dodge roll in its current meta is used as an escape mechanic quite regularly. An appropriately specced player can dodge roll to the friendly zerg or a nearby keep. It's used as a defensive ability in the same way as bolt escape. The difference is that bolt escape has a penalty for repeated use and you can still get hit by a lot of abilities (gap closers for instance). Not so with dodge roll... And with the changes to whip and concealed weapon, dodge rolling is about to get a whole lot more ridiculous.

Septimus_Magna

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

As a sorc there is an easy counter to dodge roll in the form of streak. You can't block while rolling so streak will stun a roller 100% of the time assuming they have no immunity, and if you spec right will also take a sizable chunk of their hp off. This gives you time to put a frags in their back and assuming you have a curse up also they should be nearly dead by now, just a wrath to finish them off. Or if they dodge the wrath then execute with streak

Charge Prox Detonation > Curse > Streak to stun > Soul Assault to finish, this works pretty well against most roll dodgers. If you get attacked by somenone who roll dodges every 2 seconds Deadric Minefield is very useful.

olsborg

Agree with op

Theres also the issue where the jewlery enchant to reduce stamina cost for abilities, also reduce stamina cost to dodge and cc-break. Wich is completely bonkers.

filmoretub17_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

You think dodge roll is an "escape mechanic"?

Given the fact there's a specific passive in the Bow skill line that gives you a movement speed buff after a dodge roll, I think it's safe to say that it also is intended as an escape mechanic.

You forget you must be using a bow in order for this to work. And a LOT of people are forgetting that every class can roll dodge. The best blinkies also use dodge. So if you are able to deal with the blink part then you gotta deal with the dodge part as well. Broken as hell.

BigTone

The buffs that go with roll dodging are insane. Sorcs already had to deal with the BoL nerf and crit surge nerf. After so much practice against the rollerblade builds I now know how to counter them but something should be done. You shouldn't get buffs using a mechanic to escape an attack. Escaping the attack should be good enough. Also, I really like the idea of roll dodging using a certain percentage of your stam or making it cost 50% more if used again within two seconds or giving it a cooldown time.

Zyle

dRudE wrote: »

Both are escape mechanics yet one has only penalties for using it and the other has buff after buff for using it.

Sure I'm a sorc and the stam players will just hide behind the "oh you can just BE and stack shields" argument, but BE got a severe nerf early on in the game when the stam players weren't getting there way and we just dealt with it, and still get asked for nerfs. Shields are just spells, if i get knocked down i can't cast them but at the same time I don't think they should stack like they do currently, have a major shield(hardened ward OR harness magicka) and a minor shield(healing ward) not all 3. And i do not take claim to that shield idea, somebody else suggested it.

This has more to do with ANY class roll dodging, roll dodging through damage, roll dodging through CC, roll dodging anything that anyone does and when the get CC'd or knocked down they just roll dodge straight out of it. Why is there no penalty for roll dodging? Or why is there no extra reduce cost for streaking(just a 50% extra magicka penalty for using it more than once). Roll dodgers can spec into Tumbling which gives the biggest reduction to roll dodge along with mooncalf which increases stam regen so they can roll dodge more often, they also have warlord which reduces the cost of stam abilities so they are getting more pool to roll dodge with AND they can STACK evasion with roll dodge. Then lets look at the shiny CP passives that buff the tactic even more so, Phase - your armor and spell resistance increased by X amount for 3 seconds after roll dodging, ok it's not much but it's still a buff, and Tactician - sets enemies off balance when you successfully roll dodge to avoid their attack, probably one of the most OP CP passives in the game at the moment while people just roll around the map looking like a circus act(no offence intended, people will abuse broken mechanics while they are there).

Yeah some skills exist in game that cannot be roll dodged but if i understand correctly people asked for that not to happen, why? So the only viable way to pvp would be to go all out stam and just roll zerg? That only attracts the stam players and would certainly kill off any magicka lover.

Roll dodge needs to exist for sure, it's a worthy mechanic, but that's exactly just what it should be, worthy. Not so OP that a fully DPS stacked stam build can pretty much tank a zerg while putting out enough AOE damage to kill them. If a sorc BE's across the map that's pretty much all they can do, they will have a large mana pool and some spell damage from that but will need to stack regen to replace all the extra 50%'s lost, losing the ability to fore off 15-20k frags.

This is just my opinion, I am probably wrong, but something about roll dodge just seems off at the moment and half of my pvp guild isn't having any fun due to this and the lag. So would it hurt if roll dodge became percent based? or had an increased cost if used consecutively? Sorcs survived our changes, adapted and became even more fun to play due to having to put more skill into the class, isn't this what players want, a game built around your own intellectual skill rather than how many times you can press the same key in a row?

If I am wrong, or am missing something, tell me. But I don't see why shield stacking classes should take another nerf(need to mention the nerf to crit surge's healing ability which caused all the shield stacking in the first place) while roll dodging goes unchanged. It's one or the other, silly shields and rolley polley's or both take a hit to provide some fairness.

Both are not escape mechanics...and as someone mentioned, the bow passive does give you speed, but only if you use bow...so yeah not an escape mech.

What does dodge rolling have to do with you getting knocked down and not being able to cast shields?

There IS a penalty for roll dodging, and that is your stats. You have to sacrifice other stats to build a perma-roll...and you bring up roll dodging through CC when you can bolt out of almost every situation?

One thing I will agree with is the CP passive Tactician, it needs a cooldown.

Again, no such thing as a fully DPS stacked stam build that can perma-roll. There has to be a sacrifice somewhere, maybe you just need to chase until they run out of stam, or realize they can't kill you majority of the time if they run a perma-roll build. Most of those builds rely upon stealth attacks.

OP, the problem is, I see plenty of sorcs doing fine against perma-rollers, as the rollers aren't able to kill a sorc 90% of the time.

Soulac

Garion wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

You think dodge roll is an "escape mechanic"?

Given the fact there's a specific passive in the Bow skill line that gives you a movement speed buff after a dodge roll, I think it's safe to say that it also is intended as an escape mechanic.

I don't think so, the bow passive is what gives the speed, so you could call the bow passive something that would help you escape. Speed buffs (or debuffs), bolt escape, and cloak are what allows players to escape, roll dodge just keeps them from dying while trying to escape.

Dodge roll in its current meta is used as an escape mechanic quite regularly. An appropriately specced player can dodge roll to the friendly zerg or a nearby keep. It's used as a defensive ability in the same way as bolt escape. The difference is that bolt escape has a penalty for repeated use and you can still get hit by a lot of abilities (gap closers for instance). Not so with dodge roll... And with the changes to whip and concealed weapon, dodge rolling is about to get a whole lot more ridiculous.

No penalty for spamming Shields, your second defense mechanic. Now tell me about the second defense mechanic of stamina builds. Don't tell me to block since Magicka builds can do it as good as Stamina builds.
Imagine you have a penalty on dodge, how should any Stamina Build survive? It's not like you're able to cast a 15k shield like some people here..

Or what happens if we take away your shields? Not so funny anymore, huh?
Stamina needs to rely on dodge only, while you got two defense mechanics working totally fine.. Don't think you ever got hit through your defense like you didn't do anything at all..

Leandor

EDIT: Okay, I felt the need to elaborate more on this.

dRudE wrote: »

Both are escape mechanics yet one has only penalties for using it and the other has buff after buff for using it.

Wrong, both have a penalty and dodge penalty is bigger. You cannot activate an ability or block while in the dodge animation. BE is instant and as such has not the same restriction.

dRudE wrote: »

Sure I'm a sorc and the stam players will just hide behind the "oh you can just BE and stack shields" argument, but BE got a severe nerf early on in the game when the stam players weren't getting there way and we just dealt with it, and still get asked for nerfs. Shields are just spells, if i get knocked down i can't cast them but at the same time I don't think they should stack like they do currently, have a major shield(hardened ward OR harness magicka) and a minor shield(healing ward) not all 3. And i do not take claim to that shield idea, somebody else suggested it.

If I get knocked down, I can't roll dodge, same as you I need to break free first and roll then.

dRudE wrote: »

This has more to do with ANY class roll dodging, roll dodging through damage, roll dodging through CC, roll dodging anything that anyone does and when the get CC'd or knocked down they just roll dodge straight out of it.

Bonus points for trying to stop a roll dodge with soft CC, the one thing that roll dodge is meant to be the counter to. Try streaking instead of using BoL and stun players - no more roll dodging.

dRudE wrote: »

Why is there no penalty for roll dodging? Or why is there no extra reduce cost for streaking(just a 50% extra magicka penalty for using it more than once). Roll dodgers can spec into Tumbling which gives the biggest reduction to roll dodge along with mooncalf which increases stam regen so they can roll dodge more often, they also have warlord which reduces the cost of stam abilities so they are getting more pool to roll dodge with AND they can STACK evasion with roll dodge.

See my first comment, the penalty for dodging is there and it's bigger than the BE penalty.

dRudE wrote: »

Then lets look at the shiny CP passives that buff the tactic even more so, Phase - your armor and spell resistance increased by X amount for 3 seconds after roll dodging, ok it's not much but it's still a buff, and Tactician - sets enemies off balance when you successfully roll dodge to avoid their attack, probably one of the most OP CP passives in the game at the moment while people just roll around the map looking like a circus act(no offence intended, people will abuse broken mechanics while they are there).

While phase is a buff that a dodge roller will have more use from than others, it is still only ~2% of the maximum value. If I remember correctly, Tactician has already been proven to not work in PvP.

dRudE wrote: »

Yeah some skills exist in game that cannot be roll dodged but if i understand correctly people asked for that not to happen, why? So the only viable way to pvp would be to go all out stam and just roll zerg? That only attracts the stam players and would certainly kill off any magicka lover.

The skills in question are melee attacks (Whip + Morphs of DK and Concealed Weapon morph of NB) that should not go through dodge. Mages already have skills that go through dodge inherently, magicka builds with staves get additional skills that go through dodge. There are enough counters that can be used to whittle down the dodge roller. And again, while you dodge roll, you can do nothing to reduce that damage. Learn to curse and magicka detonate before shooting the crystal fragment. The dodger will be forced to roll to evade the CC and then will eat both explosions fully.

dRudE wrote: »

Roll dodge needs to exist for sure, it's a worthy mechanic, but that's exactly just what it should be, worthy. Not so OP that a fully DPS stacked stam build can pretty much tank a zerg while putting out enough AOE damage to kill them. If a sorc BE's across the map that's pretty much all they can do, they will have a large mana pool and some spell damage from that but will need to stack regen to replace all the extra 50%'s lost, losing the ability to fore off 15-20k frags.

Again, such misinformation. To dodge roll indefinitely, you need to stack stamina regeneration, the only stat that in fact does not increase your damage output directly. As opposed to the BE-shield-sorcerer, who can also survive with less focus on regeneration because he can actually put distance between himself and the attacker by BE. Roll dodge covers very little distance. and for the third time: While the roll dodger can survive in the middle of the zerg, provided that no one uses untargeted AoE attacks like impulse or steel tornado, untargeted hard CC like streak, any type of attack that gors through dodge like force pulse or any of the charge type gap closers, he also does not do any damage in the mean time. Getting off a steel tornado inside a zerg every 3 seconds (in between rolls) while making yourself vulnerable to all attacks does not hurt a zerg with a minimum amount of healers. even 10 roll dodgers inside a zerg will not matter if people know what to do.

dRudE wrote: »

...I am probably wrong...

Yes you are.

OdinForge

BE got a huge nerf, and it's still insanely good. You can stack shields and bolt out of range that shield value will cover your escape, the mobility is still there.

Stamina builds need dodge roll to be every bit as reliable as possible, especially with incoming nirn nerfing. There are plenty of stamina build specs that don't focus on dodge roll, but need it to be just as reliable when they use it. Without damage shields or nirn, how are stamina builds supposed to stay alive? Don't say block, because I'm heavily specced into blocking and i still take insane damage from spells without the mobility.

Kloud

I don't see all the fuss with roll dodge I have 1800 stam regen and can roll dodge 5 times then im out of stam dead wondering why I can perms roll dodge like everyone else and I have 5% into tumble and 90% of the time I die before I can even roll dodge my self out of stam roll dodge is not op from my own experience with it on my stam dk

OdinForge

Kloud wrote: »

I don't see all the fuss with roll dodge I have 1800 stam regen and can roll dodge 5 times then im out of stam dead wondering why I can perms roll dodge like everyone else and I have 5% into tumble and 90% of the time I die before I can even roll dodge my self out of stam roll dodge is not op from my own experience with it on my stam dk

Because people don't understand how the mechanics work. The most efficient way to get "infinite" roll dodge is to not roll dodge as much, the only way to do that is by stacking hasty retreat with any speed buff (not using as much stamina by moving fast and you're harder to target). By abusing penetration you can drop weapon damage and get more stamina regeneration. By wearing nirn on your gear you can 1vx against potatos with a damn bow, and not worry about your HP.

For the rest of us not taking advantage of resistance and penetration issues, we're just like why the hell is dodge so OP?

Kloud

OdinForge wrote: »

Kloud wrote: »

I don't see all the fuss with roll dodge I have 1800 stam regen and can roll dodge 5 times then im out of stam dead wondering why I can perms roll dodge like everyone else and I have 5% into tumble and 90% of the time I die before I can even roll dodge my self out of stam roll dodge is not op from my own experience with it on my stam dk

Because people don't understand how the mechanics work. The most efficient way to get "infinite" roll dodge is to not roll dodge as much, the only way to do that is by stacking hasty retreat with any speed buff (not using as much stamina by moving fast and you're harder to target). By abusing penetration you can drop weapon damage and get more stamina regeneration. By wearing nirn on your gear you can 1vx against potatos with a damn bow, and not worry about your HP.

For the rest of us not taking advantage of resistance and penetration issues, we're just like why the hell is dodge so OP?

makes sense +1 here

k2blader

OdinForge wrote: »

Because people don't understand how the mechanics work. The most efficient way to get "infinite" roll dodge is to not roll dodge as much, the only way to do that is by stacking hasty retreat with any speed buff (not using as much stamina by moving fast and you're harder to target). By abusing penetration you can drop weapon damage and get more stamina regeneration. By wearing nirn on your gear you can 1vx against potatos with a damn bow, and not worry about your HP.

For the rest of us not taking advantage of resistance and penetration issues, we're just like why the hell is dodge so OP?

Thanks for your comments. Did not know that's how it's done..

Re. your slightly earlier comments on BE being "still insanely good" such that you "can stack shields and bolt out of range that shield value will cover your escape" I suppose that's generally true for the sorcs who choose to play that way (typically soloers or small groupers). But I suspect it's a similar issue to what you're talking about with infinite roll dodge. Sorcs not taking advantage of certain things (those same things you mention?) have magicka management issues as much as some stamina users have with stamina management issues.

OdinForge

k2blader wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Because people don't understand how the mechanics work. The most efficient way to get "infinite" roll dodge is to not roll dodge as much, the only way to do that is by stacking hasty retreat with any speed buff (not using as much stamina by moving fast and you're harder to target). By abusing penetration you can drop weapon damage and get more stamina regeneration. By wearing nirn on your gear you can 1vx against potatos with a damn bow, and not worry about your HP.

For the rest of us not taking advantage of resistance and penetration issues, we're just like why the hell is dodge so OP?

Thanks for your comments. Did not know that's how it's done..

Re. your slightly earlier comments on BE being "still insanely good" such that you "can stack shields and bolt out of range that shield value will cover your escape" I suppose that's generally true for the sorcs who choose to play that way (typically soloers or small groupers). But I suspect it's a similar issue to what you're talking about with infinite roll dodge. Sorcs not taking advantage of certain things (those same things you mention?) have magicka management issues as much as some stamina users have with stamina management issues.

They're quite different to resource manage, most Sorc have one type of play-style where there is surprisingly more variety with NB. BE is either used once in a while during a fight (streak) for damage and CC. BoL is used as an escape mechanic, you won't be using it a lot while you're trying to fight. Enough to gain some distance and take pressure off yourself.

There are many types of stamina builds, gankers, dodgers, hybrids etc. And between 1H, DW, 2H, Bow the game-play changes drastically. Most Sorc will have good and similar regen 1500+, but ganker NB have garbage regens and can dodge only a few times before being in danger (that's why they never leave stealth or work in groups). Stamina can be tricky to manage, unless you're running bow you can't heavy attack to regain stamina. If you're melee you're constantly in danger of getting hit.

Losing the speed stack from bow, hurts the ability to efficiently dodge roll around the battlefield.

Septimus_Magna

@Leandor You're conveniently forgetting the fact that you avoid most damage while roll-dodging but anyone with a gap-closer can charge into a BE sorc. Popular morphs like Critical Rush and Invasion even give a bonus to the attacker for the distance traveled. To avoid these attacks the BE sorc needs to roll dodge which costs 1/3 of our entire stamina pool.

Most attacks that go through roll-dodge (like curse, prox detonation etc) are mitigated by the spell resist which is easy to get with medium nirn gear.

Leandor

@Septimus_Magna do you play a dodge build? Have you tried evading a crit rush or a toppling charge with dodge? Did you catch a proximity detonation for 20k damage even though you are wearing two nirnhoned pieces for 20k spell resist?

EDIT: You also realize that many magicka attacks go through dodge, not only AoE? That you can't evade channeled attacks at all?

Do you understand that I don't want BE to be nerfed further in any way, and neither dodge, because the hyperbole of players NOT having experience with the respective mechanic in detail (and not just a couple days trying out) is mostly ridiculous? That both mechanisms have their place because neither Sorceror nor Nightblade have much survivability (if compared to Templar and Dragonknight) without the respective mechanic? That (stamina) Nightblades have the 30% stamina recovery increase precisely because they are supposed to rely on dodge and have only 2 or 3 cloaks to try and disappear in an environment where everyone can prevent it by placing inevitable on them even if it does almost no damage?

So no, I am not "conveniently forgetting" something.

Septimus_Magna

Leandor wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna do you play a dodge build? Have you tried evading a crit rush or a toppling charge with dodge? Did you catch a proximity detonation for 20k damage even though you are wearing two nirnhoned pieces for 20k spell resist?

No, I play a magicka sorc. Have you ever tried hitting a stam build with a cfrags? Or BE away from any decent stam build?

The problem is most stam NBs use roll-dodge and cloak so they can only be hit by curse for 0,5 second in between cloaks and are immune to 95% of the damage fired at them.

dRudE

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@Leandor You're conveniently forgetting the fact that you avoid most damage while roll-dodging but anyone with a gap-closer can charge into a BE sorc. Popular morphs like Critical Rush and Invasion even give a bonus to the attacker for the distance traveled. To avoid these attacks the BE sorc needs to roll dodge which costs 1/3 of our entire stamina pool.

Most attacks that go through roll-dodge (like curse, prox detonation etc) are mitigated by the spell resist which is easy to get with medium nirn gear.

This is exactly it, but after some extensive testing and switching to the instant arm mines(to counter the crit rushers) and putting curse in a place with easier access during faster paced gameplay, some of the builds I was having a lot of trouble with aren't much of a problem anymore or just hands down run away.

As to the nirn stacking MA builds, they are the counter to a 7/7 LA sorc and I'm fine with that. Nirn doesn't need a nerf, magicka builds would become to OP. I guess there will always be that one stam build that just CC's breaks everything, roll dodges everything then manages to land a 2 handed/ult combo to one pop me pretty much haha.

Will change to prox det instead of inevitable and see if that has any change with dodge rollers.

Leandor

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna do you play a dodge build? Have you tried evading a crit rush or a toppling charge with dodge? Did you catch a proximity detonation for 20k damage even though you are wearing two nirnhoned pieces for 20k spell resist?

No, I play a magicka sorc. Have you ever tried hitting a stam build with a cfrags? Or BE away from any decent stam build?

The problem is most stam NBs use roll-dodge and cloak so they can only be hit by curse for 0,5 second in between cloaks and are immune to 95% of the damage fired at them.

Sorry, I edited in a lot more, so comment on that, too, if you please.

I play a stamina build nightblade that still relies on dodge for the mitigation. I can assure you that I die often and that the things in my death recap are always the same things. All charges go through dodge. Yes, the combination dodge - cloak can be powerful if you are facing no magicka builds, but other than that specific situation, you don't get much from it.

You can hit a curse mid-dodge animation just fine, believe me, I have caught lots of those. The only way out is then to stop dodging, time the block to mitigate and only then cloak, because block as well as dodge break the cloak. The timing you have to pull off against a mediocre opponent is challenging, against a good sorc I have no defense.

Yes, I can follow and catch up with most sorcs but with just three BE the distance travelled is enough for me to deplete my stamina so far that I have no chance. During dodge and run, my stamina does not regenerate. In order to catch you, I need to have bow and double take equipped and roll every 2 seconds and recast double take every 4 (which is effectively every two seconds as well because you need to dodge cancel double take animation to get any benefit from the stacked speed buffs) seconds. I arrive in range with no magicka (can't cloak) and half of my stamina bar into a prepared opponent without sneak advantage.

Yes, there are players who can pull this off. I can't. And without any arrogance, I am a better nightblade than most - at least on my campaign & faction. There is a handful of names that will do what you are describing and wreck you every time. But there's for sure as many sorcs who can do the same to me.

We tend to see the "worst case condition" of a mechanic by remembering only those few who manage to pull this off. One can't balance the game around those top players, because if you do that, 95% of the population will lose their interest in playing.

As to your direct question in regards to CF, that requires a special setup (i.e. streak and not BoL) and close combat (which puts you in the danger zone), but yes, I have been hit with many a CF. There is one Aldmeri gank sorcerer on Azura EU who has this down flat. He uses his CF only while almost inside of me and only when it procs. The projectile has no travel time and it is impossible to evade. He times it perfectly with curses and streak, not using CC until he has me where he wants me so I don't have immunity, drains my stamina with the break free and curse block and then wastes me with the CF. All this happens within a couple of seconds.

Again, that requires a top notch player to pull off - I can't do that with my sorc. And again, I would not want to have BE nerfed around that level of play.

Soulac

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna do you play a dodge build? Have you tried evading a crit rush or a toppling charge with dodge? Did you catch a proximity detonation for 20k damage even though you are wearing two nirnhoned pieces for 20k spell resist?

No, I play a magicka sorc. Have you ever tried hitting a stam build with a cfrags? Or BE away from any decent stam build?

The problem is most stam NBs use roll-dodge and cloak so they can only be hit by curse for 0,5 second in between cloaks and are immune to 95% of the damage fired at them.

Well if you don't dodge cf you're probably half dead.
Also it's not like our dmg is coming through your shields either.. You're immune to 95% of the damage fired at you.
Shields are stronger than dodge based on 1v1 but also based on your opponent.
Stamina vs Stamina compared to melee Magicka vs Stamina is a huge difference based on the efficiency of your defense.
On the other hand, dodge is quite strong in 1vX, comparable to streak, but still a bit better depending on what you want to do.
Mostly you can't dodge charges either and against zergs you can barely dodge a couple of time until you die.

Overall I think the defense mechanics of a streaking sorc and a dodging Stamina Build are equal. Based on escaping I see streak as a bit better than dodge.

Eejit1331

My friend on the ps4 was rolling around in a keep where two other factions were battling, both factions stopped, chased him for a solid ten minutes, they gadoing p on chasing and went back to fighting each other. He was on the mic laughing and saying how op this was. I'm in this game for the long haul and as fun as it may be in the moment, in the long run, populations will diminish as people realize how busted a lot of the mechanics are. No other ability/mechanic can evade so many people at point blank.

Leandor

Eejit1331 wrote: »

My friend on the ps4 was rolling around in a keep where two other factions were battling, both factions stopped, chased him for a solid ten minutes, they gadoing p on chasing and went back to fighting each other. He was on the mic laughing and saying how op this was. I'm in this game for the long haul and as fun as it may be in the moment, in the long run, populations will diminish as people realize how busted a lot of the mechanics are. No other ability/mechanic can evade so many people at point blank.

So, how many kills did he do while rolling around? How many AP did he earn? Did he manage to capture the keep underneath the two zergs by rolling around?

There is a much more overpowered escape mechanism that works at least as good as rolling around amongst the two zergs: Do not be at the keep. Then you can kill enemies elsewhere instead of rolling around, maybe capture a resource, generate an advantage for your faction instead of giggling on the mic. Just sayin'.

Soulac

Eejit1331 wrote: »

My friend on the ps4 was rolling around in a keep where two other factions were battling, both factions stopped, chased him for a solid ten minutes, they gadoing p on chasing and went back to fighting each other. He was on the mic laughing and saying how op this was. I'm in this game for the long haul and as fun as it may be in the moment, in the long run, populations will diminish as people realize how busted a lot of the mechanics are. No other ability/mechanic can evade so many people at point blank.

And he made a total of zero Ap since he won't kill anyone with dodging through a keep.
It's possible if he splits and burst them one by one, but since you talked about two zergs I doubt it.
Also these zergs should be ashamed of not being able to kill a single Stamina Build with all these dodge ignoring skills.
Even spamming charge is enough to kill Stamina builds.

So I call ***.

Eejit1331

His intent was to die to go protect another keep, he thought he would let them kill him while he was rolling around and realized that he wasn't dieing. He killed a few people, healed himself with vigor when needed. My point was that people have the ability to just taunt people with an ability that was hopefully not intended they way it is being used.

Leandor

@Soulac that must be a console thing, where the majority of players is too inexperienced to cope with the transfers. Give it a month or two and that roller will not laugh anymore

Eejit1331

You think a bunch of level 40's, no cp points and low VR know what to do or have the ability to do. From their perspective this just looks cheesy and is a taunt that pisses people off. It doesn't bother me because I have the tools and group to handle it, but they won't for a while. It's one thing to say, wow look how op reflect, harden ward, Jesus beam is, but to aspire to be a dodge roller is most likely not topping the charts.