Dev bias for AD Cyrodiil map geography?

Zheg

Something that's been irking me a bit is how DC's keep geography makes it far easier to attack than defend; there was a thread a few weeks ago about how many of DC's keeps were in canyons and no sane person would build them that way (just ZOS...). While that's probably my biggest gripe, there are other geographical advantages that seem well stacked for AD players. I took a screenshot of my map with an add-on that shows dolmens/ayleid wells/delves. For dolmens and wells, anything that was within the diagonal transitus line for the Brindle/Dragonclaw/Drakelow triangle was counted as being 'within' that alliance territory. I realize some are right on that line, but at that point, we're talking emp keep area and it's pretty well shared I would argue. Dolmens within this territory were highlighted in orange, wells were highlighted in green. Here is the breakdown:
Wells

• AD = 8 wells ... EIGHT wells
• DC = 1 well ... like our bars of population (/giggle)
• EP = 0 wells ... the zerg must have eaten them or something

Conclusion: AD has more ayleid lore references, sure, but if we're talking pvp balance and all that jazz, what is the logic behind having such a tipped scale here for well placement?

Dolmens

• AD = 2 Dolmens
• DC = 1 Dolmen
• EP = 2 Dolmens

Conclusion: DC has less than the normal 2 dolmens per section of the map. NOTE- I am not counting the dolmen symbol just W of Dragonclaw because that is Cloud Ruler Temple and you can't actually get up there, so it doesn't count as a dolmen players can do.

It would have gotten messy if I did delves as well, but here is the breakdown for that:

• AD = 5 delves
• DC = 5 delves
• EP = 4 delves

Conclusion: while the numbers are more balanced, I would still argue that DC gets the short end of the stick. AD and EP both have a delve near Arrius/Faregyl, but DC doesn't have the equivalent for Glademist. I'd also argue that Cracked Wood Cave is a delve on steroids because of how good it is for XP grinding, and it's in AD territory (though still relatively easy access for EP).

So, to summarize, what the heck ZOS? Who designed the Cyrodiil map this way? Overall it seems pretty lopsided in favor of AD. Granted these are all features of Cyrodiil that give side-buffs (wells = hp, dolmens = enhanced siege, delves = AP), but I'm being nice and not bothering to repeat what's been said about the 'canyon' keeps that the tourists get to visit when they go to DC.

As a parting note, I'd also like to say DC is very very jealous of the bridge battles EP and AD can have. We just get stupid gate battles where a zerg can barrier and blitz through the opening and get to the other side after running < 10 m distance. Anyone selling a bridge to nowhere? Because I'd certainly like one on DC's side for pvp fights.

bosmern_ESO

I think your mixing the Territories up a bit.

EP has from chalman to the river between Alessia and sej/Drake. meaning EP has 7 dungeons, 5 wells, 3 Dolmens
AD has from Alessia to the gates between Nikel/brindle and ash, meaning AD has 6 dungeons, 6 wells, 3 Dolmens
DC has from ash to the gates between bleakers/Dragon and Chalman, meaning DC has 5 dungeons, 4 wells, 4 Dolmens

That's pretty balanced imo, One alliance has most dungeons, while another has most wells, and another has most Dolmens (if any of those were to actually matter.)

vortexman11

EP actually does have one well that I know of, right by Blue Road Keep Farm

Zheg

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I think your mixing the Territories up a bit.

EP has from chalman to the river between Alessia and sej/Drake. meaning EP has 7 dungeons, 5 wells, 3 Dolmens
AD has from Alessia to the gates between Nikel/brindle and ash, meaning AD has 6 dungeons, 6 wells, 3 Dolmens
DC has from ash to the gates between bleakers/Dragon and Chalman, meaning DC has 5 dungeons, 4 wells, 4 Dolmens

That's pretty balanced imo, One alliance has most dungeons, while another has most wells, and another has most Dolmens (if any of those were to actually matter.)

Dolmens and delves aren't horribly imbalanced (though there are still winners and losers), I'll give you that, but a quick look at the screenshot should tell you that there's a crap ton of wells down by AD.

Hypertionb14_ESO

the bridges mark the border between AP and EPs territory.

just like the north gates mark DC and EP and the west gate line mars DC and AD.

Vis

Who cares about dolmens or wells? It's all about elevation.

You must look at the key keeps (the two center ring keeps nearest your home basea) for each alliance and see how far siege weapons can successfully attack those keeps (eg elevations overlooking those keeps).

Those keeps with the most elevation surrounding it, more susceptibility to siege attacks, are the hardest to defend and thus are a disadvantage.

Zheg

I'm well aware of what the home keeps are and all of that; the map is pretty much a triangle with 3 factions, so I sectioned it off transitus lines for the discussion. Just because Dragonclaw isn't in 'AD territory' doesn't mean it's any easier or harder to take than Brindle - it's the same distance from their starting zone.

@Vis , yes, fully agree, the ability to defend home keeps is awful for some alliances and easier for others, but that's already been argued about (and ignored by ZOS) in another thread. This was just meant to point out how bizarre it is for all of those wells down by AD's starting area vs. the other alliances, and I figured I'd talk about dolmens/delves for good measure.

Zheg

vortexman11 wrote: »

EP actually does have one well that I know of, right by Blue Road Keep Farm

Yeah, the add-on shows that one. I took the trans lines between DC/Drakelow/Brindle and didn't include anything on those lines or contained within that inner triangle that gets formed by those lines because that area is usually easily accessible for 2 alliances. I guess you could say the breakdown highlighted the things that were 'closer to home' for each alliance, as they're easily accessible for one alliance and less so for the others.

Joy_Division

As someone who has a rank 22 AD toon, I can't remember that last time I used any of those Aleyid Wells that you have marked as "theirs." All of them are in remote locations. Also, as others have pointed out, your geographical boundaries are incorrect. My EP character has accessed the well south of Sejanus more than all the other wells in the game combined.

EP has 3 keeps that are easily attacked (Kingscrest [from west], Arrius [from east], Chalman [from north]), DC has 2 (Glade [from west], Aleswell [from north and east]. Maybe an argument can be made for attacking Warden from the mine. I will agree AD keeps are not as easy to attack. Alessia can be hit from farm (but not many siege fit there and EP potatoes enjoy getting farmed at front door), Bloodmayne can be hit from mine, though elevation isn't as extreme as EP & DC keeps.

I will say where DC gets the short end of the stick are the PvE quest hubs. They aren't as efficient as nuking zombies and goblins, but doing them does net good XP and gold. Chorral, the only "safe" hub for DC is the worst for efficiency as you must travel quite far to fulfill many of these quest. Good luck even trying to get to Cropsford or Cheydinhal on a non "buff" server. EP and AD have easier and "safer" access to better and more PvE hubs.

themdogesbite

Think about Allesia bridge for a moment, a position on the map that is thought to work like Ash mile gate and Chalman milegate, except the bridge is easier for EP to capture and hold then it is for AD. From AD side you cant siege any important part of the bridge due to the terrain, but on the EP side you can eaisly place sieges to ease up capturing the bridge.

All sides have keeps that are in terrible locations, but id say that makes everything a bit more entertaning

Manoekin

To even have the thought that AD has some kind of geographical advantage... you have to be sorely lacking in any kind of PvP experience. Playing AD essentially feels like being squished between two factions. Both DC and EP will probably say the same thing, but no one quite knows how that feels until they play as AD.

RedTalon

Manoekin wrote: »

To even have the thought that AD has some kind of geographical advantage... you have to be sorely lacking in any kind of PvP experience. Playing AD essentially feels like being squished between two factions. Both DC and EP will probably say the same thing, but no one quite knows how that feels until they play as AD.

Very true to a degree during some team ups in the past with EP you litterly can be hit from two sides by two different factions at the same time without knowing, sometimes blue and ep siege a keep and didn't know one was on the other side either, happens really. With most dc keeps we just can't often strike back cause we can be hit from a couple of ways we can't siege back, but we know which way they are coming, picture its less predictable on AD side?

Zheg

Manoekin wrote: »

To even have the thought that AD has some kind of geographical advantage... you have to be sorely lacking in any kind of PvP experience. Playing AD essentially feels like being squished between two factions. Both DC and EP will probably say the same thing, but no one quite knows how that feels until they play as AD.

I'd like to not go completely off on a tangent here, but the full yellow maps I woke up to today on haderus AND azura's, that stayed 95% yellow until like 4/5pm when there were enough EP/DC to start fighting back, does NOT elicit feelings of sympathy for poor wittle yellows. Now, I'll run with the assumption that you're on console or EU, because otherwise I might /facepalm so hard it leaves a mark. I mean, you're on average significantly underpopulated across all of the campaigns, have had most of your pvp guilds quit/switch to another alliance, and routinely get so demoralized as a faction that people are forced to bunny hop campaigns to avoid being zerged by 50+ at your home keeps - right? Oh wait, that's DC, not AD. So what exactly are you complaining about here? The fact that DC and EP 'sometimes' team up against you, usually following a night/morning where the entire map is yellow? Right. /tangent.

But yes, AD is certainly geographically better off. If you don't want to buy the straw man arguments of more ayleid wells, having a fun bridge to fight at, closest access to on average the best cyrodiil delves for grinding, then you SHOULD buy the fact that AD keeps are harder to siege than EP and DC keeps, because everyone else besides ZOS can see that.

Tripwyr

Guys, this is a troll thread. He completely ignored half the wells and one dolmen in his picture, are you actually taking this seriously?

I've circled all the ones he missed on his own map in red:


This is not to mention I'm pretty sure he simply hasn't discovered most of the upper portion of the map.

EDIT: I actually missed 3 dolmens myself. Taking the ones I missed into account, DC has 3 dolmens, EP has 3, and AD has 3.

Zheg

Tripwyr wrote: »

Guys, this is a troll thread. He completely ignored half the wells and one dolmen in his picture, are you actually taking this seriously?

I've circled all the ones he missed on his own map in red:


This is not to mention I'm pretty sure he simply hasn't discovered most of the upper portion of the map.

EDIT: I actually missed 3 dolmens myself. Taking the ones I missed into account, DC has 3 dolmens, EP has 3, and AD has 3.

Uhh, troll post maybe? I have full map completion in Cyrodiil thank you, so if you're looking at the screenshot and saying there are parts undiscovered, maybe you don't spend too much time in Cyrodiil?

And no, I didn't miss anything, if you had basic reading comprehension you'd notice in the OP and in the follow up posts that I'm using the trans lines between Brindle/DC/Drakelowe and counting everything in that area, and not counting things on the line or within that inner triangle because those are pretty much shared between 2 alliances at that point. Everything you've highlighted is either on the trans line, or contained in the inner triangle. Try to read the entire post next time huh?

Sanct16

Zheg wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Guys, this is a troll thread. He completely ignored half the wells and one dolmen in his picture, are you actually taking this seriously?

I've circled all the ones he missed on his own map in red:


This is not to mention I'm pretty sure he simply hasn't discovered most of the upper portion of the map.

EDIT: I actually missed 3 dolmens myself. Taking the ones I missed into account, DC has 3 dolmens, EP has 3, and AD has 3.

Uhh, troll post maybe? I have full map completion in Cyrodiil thank you, so if you're looking at the screenshot and saying there are parts undiscovered, maybe you don't spend too much time in Cyrodiil?

And no, I didn't miss anything, if you had basic reading comprehension you'd notice in the OP and in the follow up posts that I'm using the trans lines between Brindle/DC/Drakelowe and counting everything in that area, and not counting things on the line or within that inner triangle because those are pretty much shared between 2 alliances at that point. Everything you've highlighted is either on the trans line, or contained in the inner triangle. Try to read the entire post next time huh?

or maybe he is pvping and not whining about pve things in cyro.
I wonder if any pvp player has ever used any of these wells in the middle of nowhere. The only wells I used in my 100 days /played are the ones at Sejanus, BRK farm, nikel and between Aleswell Ash. I am AD.

Soulac

The placement of the wells is actually an advantage for Ep and Dc, just think about it.
If you fight your enemies, it mostly happens in their area and what do you find there? A lot of wells.
Mostly Ad pushs towards Aleswell, Chalman or Arrius, but do you think we run back to a well, take it and head back?
If we fight DC or EP we barely get any well in our hands, while you run over them everywhere in our area.

Aquanova

Yeah I kinda felt there was a bias for AD geographically for awhile now. They have 2 main bridges to cross to get to their home keeps and the water way under it can't be crossed because of the slaughter fish. They make for great bottlenecks too.

Mako1132

Zheg

Sanct16 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Guys, this is a troll thread. He completely ignored half the wells and one dolmen in his picture, are you actually taking this seriously?

I've circled all the ones he missed on his own map in red:


This is not to mention I'm pretty sure he simply hasn't discovered most of the upper portion of the map.

EDIT: I actually missed 3 dolmens myself. Taking the ones I missed into account, DC has 3 dolmens, EP has 3, and AD has 3.

Uhh, troll post maybe? I have full map completion in Cyrodiil thank you, so if you're looking at the screenshot and saying there are parts undiscovered, maybe you don't spend too much time in Cyrodiil?

And no, I didn't miss anything, if you had basic reading comprehension you'd notice in the OP and in the follow up posts that I'm using the trans lines between Brindle/DC/Drakelowe and counting everything in that area, and not counting things on the line or within that inner triangle because those are pretty much shared between 2 alliances at that point. Everything you've highlighted is either on the trans line, or contained in the inner triangle. Try to read the entire post next time huh?

or maybe he is pvping and not whining about pve things in cyro.
I wonder if any pvp player has ever used any of these wells in the middle of nowhere. The only wells I used in my 100 days /played are the ones at Sejanus, BRK farm, nikel and between Aleswell Ash. I am AD.

So the argument has changed from, "there isn't any advantage, OP is trolling" to "well, sure, there are more, but no one uses them".

Again, maybe reading comprehension as a whole is just lost on people nowadays, but the entire beginning of the OP is about how the biggest issue is keep layout, and then the cherry on top are all of these extra minor geographical advantages. I never said having an extra dolmen is game-breaking, just pointing out that there are minor advantages in addition to the important advantages of having keeps that are easier to defend - because while people talk about keeps I haven't seen anyone point out what I tried to point out in the OP.

As an aside, the "PVE things" in cyrodiil net you more AP per hour with the delve buff than running around in zergs without it. So people ARE going to the random places off of transitus lines. And as someone who routinely hunts AD at dolmens, I can indeed tell you that your faction is the most prone to doing them on NA. Yes, these are all minor things, but they still add up to the point where I question who designed some of these aspects of the map.

BigTone

Defending Ales is a nightmare. One can easily siege from the farm even if you don't take the resource. On top of that, there are two sets of stairs that create choke points. This gives a choke point and elevation advantage. One can also set up about 35 siege on the north side of Aleswell.

Glade is another tough one to defend. Ideally the keeps should be at an elevated position, with the resources below them.