Message to Zenimax Online Studios regarding Experience Potions and Champion Points

forzajuve212

(Repost from r/elderscrollsonline):
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3acsef/message_to_zenimax_online_studios_regarding/


Hello fellow ESO players,


I am writing this post in response to the addition of Experience Point Scrolls in the Crown Store for 1000 crowns. These scrolls last for 2 hours and grant a player 50% more experience gain and champion point gain from all sources.


Let me first state that I am a veteran player that has been and continues to be subbed to this game. I have no issue with the idea of the crown store or any of the previous additions to the store but this recent addition clearly goes under the category as Pay-to-Win (P2W). Below, I will list my reasons for this opinion.


The central issue with the scroll is that the 50% buff applies to Champion Point gain.


This is inherently game breaking and P2W. Players can purchase 5 scrolls for 1000 crowns and essentially pay to make their character have improved stats over other players. You can now buy something with money that gives you a clear advantage versus other players.


This scroll will know break in-game mechanics such as the following:

1. PVE Leaderboards will now be broken by players with hundreds and possibly thousands of champion points who will be able to complete Trials at a faster time and thus getting higher leaderboard positions, higher weekly scoring positions and receive great rewards from using money to buy their way to improved player stats, giving a P2W advantage.

2. PVP will now become unbalanced with players using the scrollto gain clear advantages over other players in combat. With the increase to Champion Point gain, players who choose to purchase it from the crown store can receive huge amounts of Champion Points to invest into their characters and thus making them exponentially stronger than other players who choose not to or cannot afford 1000 crowns.

3. Overall, the increase to champion point gain by a whopping 50% for 2 hours no longer can be classified as a convenience item and thus puts Zenimax Online Studio in an awkward position. Previously, you stated that the only thing that would be in the Crown Store would be convenience items NOT PAY TO WIN items. This is clearly stated by Matt Firor in the announcement video for ESO:TU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RxYZLOS5Jw

But you have turned back on this statement by:
1. Making the 50 % exp gain apply to Champion Point gain

3. More importantly, you now sell this scroll in the Crown Store and thus allowing people to pay real cash to directly make their characters stronger in all facets of the game and thus gain a clear and game breaking advantage.

This now has the potential to truly ruin this game permanently if this issue is not fixed by Zenimax Online Studios. It has the possibility, if not addressed, to ruin player progression, give unfair advantages to players who pay with cash over other players, and truly kill the game for many players who bought into your statement that the B2P switch would still keep the integrity of the game despite having no sub. This legitimately has the potential to destroy the community that has been fostered in this game since Day 1.

Now that I have stated my issues, I want to make some clarifications and post solutions.

Contrast between Experience Point gain vs Champion Point gain

Personally, I have no issue with the fact that their is a 50% exp gain. As a player with a VR14 character, I dont want to have to go through all of the questing again to get to VR14 again. So, this potion/scroll allows me to spend my in game gold or real money in order to level my character faster so If I want to, I can experience end-game content faster.

That is why I want to make a distinction between flat experience gain increase and champion point increase. The Champion Point part of this potion/scroll is what truly makes it game breaking. While I might be able to pay cash to get an advantage over other players in getting to V14, that level can be fairly attainable by players and does not give an unfair advantage in Cyrodiil or in trials in comparison to other players.

Now I want to present solutions to this issue.

Possible Solutions/Fixes to this mechanic
Here are my list of solutions:
1. Eliminate the Champion Point gain from the potions/scrolls

This would 100% fix the entire P2W issue and would prevent players from getting unfair amounts of CP over other players. For me, this is the exact fix required that would fully amend all of the issues I presented.

2. Nerf the Champion point increase gain from 50% to 10%

This would make the Champion point gain less game breaking and would only give a small increase in the gain instead of the huge 50% one that currently exists.
3. Increase the cost of the scroll in the Crown Store

This would make it more expensive and would thus deter players from spending huge amounts of cash to gain an unfair advantage.

That pretty much sums up what im seeing right now. If you have any other additions or points, feel free to bring them up!

I hope you guys at Zenimax Online Studios take the time to read this and review the system the way it currently stands. Fixing this issue immediately would reestablish trust between the publisher and the community because at the moment, I've definitely lost some faith in you guys in terms of keeping promises over P2W.

Best,

Forza

LoreScholar

I agree

Robbie575

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This is probably something that needs to be looked into, with the Champion point gain.

forzajuve212

Yea I do believe that it is something that needs to be reviewed and edited by the developers. It could have big effects on the long term state of the game.

oddsmaker

Your argument is horribly flawed. It is NOT pay to win since you can buy these potions off players or merchants. Right now, they are about 8K if you look (and will get cheaper), and with drink passives a single potion lasts 50 minutes. Thus they are available to EVERYONE in game without paying crowns. You don't have to spend real life cash to have the same advantage that people who do spend cash have.

Second, you act like simply buying these potions give you massive champion points. You still have to work them them. You still have to work for them just as hard as if you were using player-made xp potions. Again, not pay to win.

While your arguments about whether xp potions are a good thing *at all* are worth considering (since you do either have to spend crowns or your gold to buy them from players without falling behind), please don't bark up the pay2win tree.

forzajuve212

Sorry but the Champion Point aspect is something that is just game breaking. Regardless of being in the crown store, it adds a dangerous aspect to the game where certain players can greatly outpace other players in CP and thus gain a strong advantage over them.

Faulgor

Yeah, this is the straw that broke my camel's back. I already thought the riding lessons were P2W and anything else in the Cash Shop at best unhealthy for the game, but this is just too much. Even more so considering we thought they removed champion point gain from the crown store potion and we applauded it. Now the in-game item is clearly inferior to the cash version, it has all the hallmarks of F2P filth.

I might check out Orsinium if I have enough crowns left to get that DLC, because I'm looking forward to some Trinimac lore, but in all other matters, this game is dead to me. Everyone I knew has already left, so I might just as well close the door.

And don't hold your breath that they will do anything about this. They have made it quite clear that getting something faster with cash is not P2W in their opinion (of course not, it's what makes them money).

Aunatar

Totally agree.
I would point out that there are differences between (in example) in game tri-stat potions and crown store ones: the in-game ones are better, so you can't get any advantage by paying real money.
With these exp scrolls it's a different story: not only the in game potions are really expensive, but the crown scrolls last even 4 times, which is clearly an advantage and I wouldn't call them "convenience items".

Dru1076

Well, I am glad that I am not the only one put out by these potions and what they will do to competition in the game. As I pointed out elsewhere, the manner in which these recipe fragments are obtained doesn't just favour established multi-character players a little bit... It favours them by a factor of how many alts they have doing writs. For a new player, or a player with a job and a life outside, this is a certain message that not only are we adjust disadvantaged in a game with a great many op players already, but we have not, up to this point, in fact been disadvantaged enough.

To be clear, a guy like me who took just over six months to hit v10 with my main couldn't really expect to do very well in the alliance war. I never expected to kick butt. But now, with players already making and using these boosters while I won't be making for possibly a very very long time...i don't expect to even get within shooting distance. Unless, of course, I go P2W. But you know what? Out really isn't P2W... It is"pay-to-slow-the-gap-growth".

The silence from Devs has been deafening given how many threads have now brought this up. From what I have seen in the past, this indicates that what we are talking about is not regarded as an important issue, or in fact is all WAI. I wonder if one of the Devs would like to weigh in on this, because while this champion point thing isn't a huge problem yet, unless your playing your first run through Blackwater right now, where champion points at already causing imbalance, it is enough to rob me of my motivation to go to Cyrodil. Perhaps that is their plan? Perhaps this booster thing is actually a clever way to fix lag by making the Alliance War an impossible thing for new and casual players to enjoy?

forzajuve212

This is something that the Devs should definitely take a look into. Because in my opinion this is, at the very least, borderline P2W.

Inactive Account

Hard core players vs not hard core players.

The People that invest large amounts of time to this Game more than likely, have a Plus Membership. They play to Win. Many of them are Min/Maxers. They also more than likely are using the rings of Mara. And now, yes they are going to use the Experience Boosting scrolls.
They want to be the Top of the Heap. They will use all items available to them to do this. The percentage of these type of players is what? 10%, Naw, more realistically 4-6% of the player base.
Even if none of these Boosts where available to them, they would still be "on top" because they would be investing so much of their free time to play; in comparison the rest of the player base. They play because they enjoy the Game.

There is a larger percentage of people who play that don't have the Plus membership, don't have the rings, and don't have the will or the free time to play this Game 4-5 hrs a day.
These Experience boosters give these people some extra help while they play. These people will never be in the " Top " 10% of the Leader Board, but they still enjoy the Game.

There are in-game craft able items that some argue are better than that of the crown store. ( because with the proper skills in Provisioning, they last longer. ) These items take a long in-game time to invest in. One first has to find the recipes, then collect the materials.

There it is again... Time to invest in. They way ESO has been developed recently, Time invested in game, is the main issue. Items can be bought in the crown store that I still consider to be convenience items. They give you instantly, what takes a rather large amount of time in- game to do; This relates not only to Potions, but to the availability of Motifs as well.

This is a where immersion in the game breaks. ESO is Business. It was created to make the development company money, not just to give people something they want; but those two statements intertwine with each other to the point of being one concept..... Create something people want and the will pay to be a part of it.

Are these items the deciding factor that makes one player better than the next? ( Are they Pay to Win items? ) Personally, I don't think they are, That's not to say that Zenimax is not walking the Razor's Edge on these items.

forzajuve212

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

Hard core players vs not hard core players.

The People that invest large amounts of time to this Game more than likely, have a Plus Membership. They play to Win. Many of them are Min/Maxers. They also more than likely are using the rings of Mara. And now, yes they are going to use the Experience Boosting scrolls.
They want to be the Top of the Heap. They will use all items available to them to do this. The percentage of these type of players is what? 10%, Naw, more realistically 4-6% of the player base.
Even if none of these Boosts where available to them, they would still be "on top" because they would be investing so much of their free time to play; in comparison the rest of the player base. They play because they enjoy the Game.

There is a larger percentage of people who play that don't have the Plus membership, don't have the rings, and don't have the will or the free time to play this Game 4-5 hrs a day.
These Experience boosters give these people some extra help while they play. These people will never be in the " Top " 10% of the Leader Board, but they still enjoy the Game.

There are in-game craft able items that some argue are better than that of the crown store. ( because with the proper skills in Provisioning, they last longer. ) These items take a long in-game time to invest in. One first has to find the recipes, then collect the materials.

There it is again... Time to invest in. They way ESO has been developed recently, Time invested in game, is the main issue. Items can be bought in the crown store that I still consider to be convenience items. They give you instantly, what takes a rather large amount of time in- game to do; This relates not only to Potions, but to the availability of Motifs as well.

This is a where immersion in the game breaks. ESO is Business. It was created to make the development company money, not just to give people something they want; but those two statements intertwine with each other to the point of being one concept..... Create something people want and the will pay to be a part of it.

Are these items the deciding factor that makes one player better than the next? ( Are they Pay to Win items? ) Personally, I don't think they are, That's not to say that Zenimax is not walking the Razor's Edge on these items.

Very well written post, thank you for sharing

JamilaRaj

oddsmaker wrote: »

Your argument is horribly flawed. It is NOT pay to win since you can buy these potions off players or merchants.

Yours is too. People that buy it for cash are literally paying to win.

forzajuve212

JamilaRaj wrote: »

oddsmaker wrote: »

Your argument is horribly flawed. It is NOT pay to win since you can buy these potions off players or merchants.

Yours is too. People that buy it for cash are literally paying to win.

Exactly. Completely agree.

Benawaw89

qq-ing , i have crown cause i sub, and i spent my crown for xp scrolls, i even can buy the potion too with in game gold , nothing pay to win here. beside, like if you have that xp pot you will suddenly get 100cp, noo, you need to use that , you need to work on that(like grind or questing or whatever). so no pay to win.

even if im poor , i cant afford xp crown or xp pot , i can still grind and get good amount cp per h.
the real deal in every game is , if you wanna be good ,you need to invest time maybe money in some games , but in this game , even you spend money , you dont have time you cant get CP anyway.

-_-

Benawaw89

JamilaRaj wrote: »

oddsmaker wrote: »

Your argument is horribly flawed. It is NOT pay to win since you can buy these potions off players or merchants.

Yours is too. People that buy it for cash are literally paying to win.

he has crown cause he is subbing. 2nd we dont know what to do with that crown. buying pet, did it . mount, did it. so we just spent it for xp crown which we can buy too with igg.

so we dont spend real money , we just sub cause we love the game so they can use our sub money to work on new content etc etc. so no pay to win.

DemonNinja

You can also craft these in game and spend no Real Life money on them. Therefor your point is moot. Its a value proposition. Spend the time to get your skills up and farm the mats to craft your own, or buy some with crowns. The craft-able ones are trade-able and give the same effect. Also if your passives are high enough they even last longer. This is no different than a rested experience bonus in any other game.

Garion

I wonder if they could make it so it only works for the first 400 champ points or something. That way, people can level their champ points quickly if they are new to the game (this is something that is definitely needed... or the balance you are attempting to advocate means nothing). This I think would be the perfect solution for all.

Having said that I honestly think the reason that we have this also increasing champion XP is because Zenimax don't know how to turn it off... if the choice was between launching XP scrolls in the crown store and not launching, they are obviously going to go ahead and do it.

JamilaRaj

Benawaw89 wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

oddsmaker wrote: »

Your argument is horribly flawed. It is NOT pay to win since you can buy these potions off players or merchants.

Yours is too. People that buy it for cash are literally paying to win.

he has crown cause he is subbing. 2nd we dont know what to do with that crown. buying pet, did it . mount, did it. so we just spent it for xp crown which we can buy too with igg.

so we dont spend real money , we just sub cause we love the game so they can use our sub money to work on new content etc etc. so no pay to win.

Last I heard subs were for real money, so nope, you still spend real money in exchange for an advantage; P2W for short.
As for you motivation, you should then perhaps request ethical subscription where you would pay monthly fee out of pure love without recieving any advantages in return, and I, for one, would second such request.

DemonNinja wrote: »

You can also craft these in game and spend no Real Life money on them. Therefor your point is moot. Its a value proposition. Spend the time to get your skills up and farm the mats to craft your own, or buy some with crowns. The craft-able ones are trade-able and give the same effect. Also if your passives are high enough they even last longer. This is no different than a rested experience bonus in any other game.

One could also spend all gold on in-game boosts _and_ real money on additional from the cash shop.

Garion wrote: »

Having said that I honestly think the reason that we have this also increasing champion XP is because Zenimax don't know how to turn it off... if the choice was between launching XP scrolls in the crown store and not launching, they are obviously going to go ahead and do it.

The reason they launch any boosters in the first place is to get money from players eager to P2W, especially from those on consoles where XP boost alone would be highly desirable (ironically also because it would allow players to start farming CPs earlier) and players not so eager but unwilling to be cannon fodder for the first group (and obviously unwilling to ragequit entirely, which would also do). That it boosts CPs gain as well only fits its purpose by making it more markedly P2W, so it is irrelevant whether they took effort to enable it or simply spared themselves the effort to disable it.
I mean cash shop boosts. The only reason they also launch in-game boosts is to legitimize the cash shop version (by the usual it's in game so it's not P2W fallacy) of course and perhaps advertise it a bit. They are quite idiotical in their own right anyway.

Benawaw89

One could also spend all gold on in-game boosts _and_ real money on additional from the cash shop.

you clearly dont have clue about this game but talk too much. it doesnt stack the one you buy with real money and the one you buy with igg.
but i think its already in your blood to keep whining

qq ^^

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

It is partially the issue of how do you separate CP gain from XP gain. Next is the issue that what about people who do not have 24/7 to live in the game? How can we help them catch up somewhat? Well lets offer them consumables from the store. This I guarantee is the best selling item BY FAR of anything they have put on the store to date. It is like this in ALL mmos who sell XP scrolls or potions etc. I swear I wonder if this is people's first buy to play type MMO.

xaraan

No man, it's not P2W. You can get drink that gives the same buff in game without spending any real money on it - in fact one mix if you have your passives will make you 4 drinks and boost the time on each to like 50 min.

Also, it's pretty one side when some folks say stuff like "it's ok for this, but not this" - it's ok for someone to have those potions and level up to vr14 is it? (Aside from the fact you earn CP for V1-14) Some of us leveled up 8 guys to v14 (doing all quests) and leveled up riding skill on all of them, etc. And leveled up crafts without having any inspiration bonuses - yet now everyone can just come along and pay to get everything I worked for faster or instantly by spending crowns.

Worrying that you've wasted some of the effort you've put into the game to build a character/account that's solid being easily caught up to is as worrisome as catching up sometimes.

Benawaw89

ofc its fair, hardcore ppl will win. its same like sport , lionel messi train 24/7 and you train once in a month , and you complain you cant catch up with meesi.

Faulgor

Benawaw89 wrote: »

ofc its fair, hardcore ppl will win. its same like sport , lionel messi train 24/7 and you train once in a month , and you complain you cant catch up with meesi.

But with the new cash shop, Donald Trump can get on Messi's level in no time.

LillyAngel

Not this again... people are afraid of this like it's a matter of life and death. Again, this has nothing with pay 2 win. Take it as a convenience item that helps people that have something else besides gaming, life. Like myself for example, i cannot play daily and if i play i spend max 2 hours playing. So, atm i am just a level 32 after playing for over a month now! And yes, i subbed, i like to help the developer, i always do it.
Now imaging trying to reach level V14 and get all of the CPs playing like this. It will take a long time to get there (maybe 3-4 months!) and possibly i will stop playing as i will get annoyed by the fact that it take so long to level a character. There are many people in the same situation like me and they really want to be up there much much sooner... so how are you gonna do it? Like this, many people will quit before even reaching the end game. To me, everyone that complains about this "perk" is selfish and it bothers them that they had to level up their 8 chars the "hard way". Let others people play as well, this game is not "locked" to those with 10 hours a day playing, it's open to everyone, whether they play an hour a week or 10 hours a day.

Also, this "perk" is available in game so i don't get all these complains. Every game has it, get used to it.

Look at WoW, you get "butt kicked" all the way to lvl 90!!! Go, complain...

JamilaRaj

Benawaw89 wrote: »

One could also spend all gold on in-game boosts _and_ real money on additional from the cash shop.

you clearly dont have clue about this game but talk too much. it doesnt stack the one you buy with real money and the one you buy with igg.
but i think its already in your blood to keep whining

qq ^^

You are the one talking about stacking.
What I am talking about is the fact that player that spends cash will keep on grinding with bonus long after players that do not will run out of gold.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

It is partially the issue of how do you separate CP gain from XP gain. Next is the issue that what about people who do not have 24/7 to live in the game? How can we help them catch up somewhat?

They are definitely not going to catch up, because nothing prevents people that play 24/7 from using boosts too. Moreover people that kept up will no longer be able to unless they pay.

Faulgor

LillyAngel wrote: »

Not this again... people are afraid of this like it's a matter of life and death. Again, this has nothing with pay 2 win. Take it as a convenience item that helps people that have something else besides gaming, life. Like myself for example, i cannot play daily and if i play i spend max 2 hours playing. So, atm i am just a level 32 after playing for over a month now! And yes, i subbed, i like to help the developer, i always do it.
Now imaging trying to reach level V14 and get all of the CPs playing like this. It will take a long time to get there (maybe 3-4 months!) and possibly i will stop playing as i will get annoyed by the fact that it take so long to level a character. There are many people in the same situation like me and they really want to be up there much much sooner... so how are you gonna do it? Like this, many people will quit before even reaching the end game. To me, everyone that complains about this "perk" is selfish and it bothers them that they had to level up their 8 chars the "hard way". Let others people play as well, this game is not "locked" to those with 10 hours a day playing, it's open to everyone, whether they play an hour a week or 10 hours a day.

Also, this "perk" is available in game so i don't get all these complains. Every game has it, get used to it.

Look at WoW, you get "butt kicked" all the way to lvl 90!!! Go, complain...

Back then when there were no cash shops in MMOs we had "life" as well, and you know what? Nobody cried about it. When one of our friends lagged behind because he didn't have enough time that week, we took some time to help him catch up. It's no problem whatsoever.

You get what everybody else gets, a game to play. You are not entitled to get everything the game has to offer. You have to play it to earn it. You only have enough time or abilities to reach level 32? Great, you get to play level 32 content. Setting the game up so every obstacle can be circumvented for cash ruins the game for everyone in the long run just because people like you couldn't bear to not be #1 for some time. You are the selfish one, not people who want to maintain the integrity of the game.

This mentality really absolutely baffles me. In no other area would this even come up as a possibility.

"Hey Mike, we are going to have band practice next Tuesday, are you coming?"
- "Pf, what's the point. At this rate we'll never be as good as Nirvana. I wish I had enough cash to buy myself guitar skills."

"Hey Susan, we are having a barbecue next weekend! Want to come?"
- "Sorry, I bought myself some Street Fighter skills, going to beat *** at the tournament next Saturday!"

edit: So apparently the name of "The Beast" Umehara is censored? No idea why, but amusing.

Benawaw89

Faulgor wrote: »

Benawaw89 wrote: »

ofc its fair, hardcore ppl will win. its same like sport , lionel messi train 24/7 and you train once in a month , and you complain you cant catch up with meesi.

But with the new cash shop, Donald Trump can get on Messi's level in no time.

donald trump planning to be president instead

Emma_Overload

OP is full of nonsense. Why, you ask?

1) No one will pay real life cash for XP boosters that don't help you earn CP, and the Crown Store needs to sell stuff players will BUY.

2) The potions don't actually give you any CP... not even ONE POINT. You still have to grind them out in game.

3) The 50% higher rate of CP gain is still pitiful when you look at how long it will take. You just reduced a 5 year grind to 3 years... big whoop!

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

It's pay to win.

/thread

leandro.800ub17_ESO

I understand that this is in order for players to get prepared for new content by having some CP when it hits.
Since there is no level cap raise this is the way to get ready or else no one will enter new zones since they would be to dificult for a pure VR14 no CP
Problem is that it afects the already high CP players and PVP aspect.
So the solution would be reducng from 50% to 10% and not aplying to 300+ CP